They are having their day in the sun, as it were.
The new meta for a long time to come. Bungie has always wanted the Pulse rifle to be the go to.
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Destiny |OT36| Fifty Shades of TTK
- Thread starter DrDrizzay101
- Start date
The new meta for a long time to come. Bungie has always wanted the Pulse rifle to be the go to.
Looking at the top primary weapons used in Trials on that guardian.gg website is amusing.
RIP Pulse Rifles in next weapon rebalance patch.
No surprise there of course. I hope they don't take this to mean that PR's need a nerf. Because they really don't. They are fine where they are, which is really where they've always been. It's just that other weapon types have been hit with the nerf hammer too hard. Bring those other types back up so they can compete again.
Exactly!
brianjones
Member
yeah I'm honestly fine with pulse rifles
it's just everything else
it's impossible trying to win a gunfight with an AR against a decent pulse .. using the Suros is pure torture.. I've done it for Shaxx bounties
Twilight Gap
Member
that's called power creep.
Kor of Memory
Member
I've been trying to pinpoint what it is about this meta compared to the last big one that has people not enjoying it as much, and I think I've figured it out.
Exotics are boring.
People are no longer building their kits around a nice exotic weapon. Exotics are almost an after thought, because hardly any exotic has a perk that you can really notice and/or feel the difference when using.
I've even noticed lately a lot of Trials opponents don't even use exotic weapons at all because they aren't really worth it.
I think this is stunting the variety of trials.
A good way to tell is that even though Pulse rifles are the new meta, how many exotic pulse rifles do you see in PvP?
I'll see some Red Death on occasion, with a random Bad Juju here and there. Yet to see a NttE.
Instead I see Nirwen, Hacksaw, and Smite.
Edit: I typed this up before that list was posted.
Looking at the top primary weapons used in Trials on that guardian.gg website is amusing.
RIP Pulse Rifles in next weapon rebalance patch.
I really wish they'd stop w/ their 'let something be good for awhile then nerf it to shit' way of changing things. Weapon tuning is cool, but they paint w/ much too broad a brush.
Conservatively speaking Handcannons are the 4th class of weapons to go from fantastic to absolute shit w/ a single patch. The preceding being:
Auto Rifles
Fusion Rifles
Hand Cannons
I don't understand why they don't make more measured changes, especially when it concerns downgrading a weapon.
I would agree other weapon types should just be buffed. However, history says the top used weapons just get the banhammer and other types get buffed with a new meta emerging. Rinse and repeat 6 months later.
I honestly don't think there will ever be a time where things are balanced between weapon types. They've pinned themselves in such a corner with PvP/PvE balancing and inability to separate them. Maybe Destiny 2.
GustyGardens
Banned
Destiny really wants me to start using hand cannons. The first I got was The Last Word, which I started using in The Crucible for the Chaperone quest. In order to get used to it, I began to practice with it in PvE. I've started to get pretty good with it, though I wish it's range was a bit better.
Since the initial Last Word drop, I've gotten Ace of Spades, Hawkmoon, The Revelator, Appellant II & Her Mercy. Which is the better one?
Since the initial Last Word drop, I've gotten Ace of Spades, Hawkmoon, The Revelator, Appellant II & Her Mercy. Which is the better one?
brianjones
Member
theres some really good legendary pulse rifles which is almost the opposite of how it was with hand cannons
personally thought all the old legendary hand cannons felt like shit except fate bringer and that was pure PVE
personally thought all the old legendary hand cannons felt like shit except fate bringer and that was pure PVE
Well, the cool exotics in the game aren't Pulse Rifles, so they don't belong in the new meta.
Take for instance TLW as an example. VERY unique and interesting weapon and VERY fun to use (Y1). It's not really all that viable now unless you're really, really good, so most people use Pulse Rifles which are all basically the same.
Boring!
Twilight Gap
Member
Jewel of Osiris was good, but most of the good ones from Year One like Devil You Know, Red Hand IX, Lord High Fixer and Revelator definitely sucked after the first HC nerf.
Grats on the new job, Math! And who can say they are surpised by Rubenov and Wicked with their ranking. Glad to see the achievement and, better yet, helping out the community when possible.
.
You still gonna set up Crucible trains tonight? I'll be looking once I get home
and the baby is asleep
Molecular level explosions? 😅
Kor of Memory
Member
Yeah, but look at the big 3 of Year 1 and how unique they were.
Thorn was the only weapon that could apply a dot.
Hawkmoon was a sniper with a RNG 1HKO.
Last Word didn't require ADS and had an awesome animation.
All 3 of those felt very awesome in what they did. They were unique, and you felt very different using every one of them.
Now look at Y2 pulses.
Red Dead gives health back on kill. This is actually awesome.
Bad Juju gives super energy on kill. Okay, thats alright, but it's hard to directly associate the two.
NttE prevents you from reloading as much, but this is a terrible PvP perk.
All 3 of them feel almost exactly the same when shooting. Why didn't Hakke manufacture one of these...
neoism
Member
ahha yeah youd think by then guns would be recoilless, and not even use bullets.
BreezyLimbo
Banned
Spoken like a true merican. Fuck yeah.
Twilight Gap
Member
You used Thorn to suppress people
You used Hawkmoon at range
You used TLW up close while being agile
You use all Pulse Rifles - Exotic or Legendary - the exact same way
You used Hawkmoon at range
You used TLW up close while being agile
You use all Pulse Rifles - Exotic or Legendary - the exact same way
Jest Chillin
Member
Power creep is annoying in most games but in a shooter? Kill times get faster which just means people spend more time respawning than actually fighting and it encourages camping, which would make one of the best parts of Destiny largely irrelevant, the movement.
Right now kill times are in an okay-ish spot on average. I'd be okay with them taking just a bit longer if there were any change to them. Definitely wouldn't want them to be faster at all.
JohnOfMars
Banned
It looks like for Pub matches that Auto Rifles are still very popular:
Can you guess when Xur sold Zhalo Supercell? Scouts are the least popular. Nov. 4th was when a lot of us got the First Curse, btw. Not that that changed anything.
And then you get to Trials and the meta is enforced with super-high stakes:
Can you guess when Xur sold Zhalo Supercell?
Scouts are the least popular. Nov. 4th was when a lot of us got the First Curse, btw. Not that that changed anything.And then you get to Trials and the meta is enforced with super-high stakes:
The closest you're going to get is the Zhalo Supercell.
It's not power creep though. It's balance.
Are Pulse Rifles OP in the sense that they're problematic by themselves like Thorn was in Year 1? Not at all.
Are the other weapon types in the game not as good as Pulse Rifles? Yes, absolutely.
There's a solution to all this and it's called buffing other weapon types.
I have no problem with Pulse Rifles on their own. My problem is that the guns I want to use aren't as good.
Twilight Gap
Member
Jade Rabbit, Touch of Malice, Vision of Confluence and Mida Multi Tool are the only Scouts I've ever seen consistently good in PvP.
Bungie's going to look at the data however and assume that Scouts need a buff, when the fact is they just need better Scouts. Scholar from Trials in Year One was a better PvE weapon.
Pulse Rifles as an archetype are overpowered IMO. They need an aim assist, stagger and/or stability nerf so that they are less effective at range, allowing Scouts some room to shine.
Bungie's going to look at the data however and assume that Scouts need a buff, when the fact is they just need better Scouts. Scholar from Trials in Year One was a better PvE weapon.
Pulse Rifles as an archetype are overpowered IMO. They need an aim assist, stagger and/or stability nerf so that they are less effective at range, allowing Scouts some room to shine.
Year 1 scholar was my favorite scout. New trials scout sucks.
The problem is that map design is an issue here too. How do you buff scout rifles so they are a viable alternative to pulses?
Increase their distance? Doesn't really matter since the maps are relatively small.
Increase their damage? This seems unlikely since it would give Scouts (especially the ones with auto fire) a way-too-fast TTK.
So that's why a nerf is typically easier than buffing everything else. However, I agree with others: past experience dictates that Bungie goes too far with nerfs.
brianjones
Member
tlaloc is disgusting when you have your super.. without it its just kinda average
is malice really good in pvp? I've never really seen it being used .. seems like it would be risky as hell in 6v6 playlist.. might be curious to try it in a smaller playlist
Twilight Gap
Member
Forgot about Tlaloc. Yea that's a nasty gun.
Empty the mag on Touch of Malice and aim for the head. It does 61 body shots so you're going to get a really fast kill with crits. Definitely risky but so good when you chain them.
Future PhaZe
Member
By all accounts, Pulse rifles are functioning as intended.
I'd like to see a global stability and range decrease for auto-rifles with a significant global increase in impact/damage. That way those guns shred at short distances but will get outgunned by scouts and pulse rifles.
Hand cannons require careful balancing. Thorn should be accurate but low impact with strong poison stacking. Hawkmoon poor range, heavy recoil, but two headshot kill, potential two body shot kill if you hit the perk crits. The really high impact hand cannons should require significant spacing between shots.
High impact fusion rifles with large charge times should insta kill if you hit the enemy in the slightest imo. High risk high reward. Very low aim assist.
Striker titans deserve an exotic that grants juggernaut.
Defender titans should get vortex grenades to replace spike. Nightstalkers should get suppression grenades to replace spike. Spike grenades are awful.
I'd like to see a global stability and range decrease for auto-rifles with a significant global increase in impact/damage. That way those guns shred at short distances but will get outgunned by scouts and pulse rifles.
Hand cannons require careful balancing. Thorn should be accurate but low impact with strong poison stacking. Hawkmoon poor range, heavy recoil, but two headshot kill, potential two body shot kill if you hit the perk crits. The really high impact hand cannons should require significant spacing between shots.
High impact fusion rifles with large charge times should insta kill if you hit the enemy in the slightest imo. High risk high reward. Very low aim assist.
Striker titans deserve an exotic that grants juggernaut.
Defender titans should get vortex grenades to replace spike. Nightstalkers should get suppression grenades to replace spike. Spike grenades are awful.
Which one is it? Ahhhhhhhhh
Good stuff. Really like your style.I've been trying to draw one cyberpunk thing a day for Novemborg.
I have to do some unexpected wife stuff for a bit, but I hope so. Definitely Tuesday-Friday in any case! Hopefully tonight too.
BreezyLimbo
Banned
Power creep would be if they introduced new guns that outclassed the old ones.
Like...in League of Legends theres been a power creep in newer characters because of the amount of power their kits have. As such older champions lose out on their viability and become irrelevant.
The issue with destiny right now is weapon balance. No new exotic or weapon has made previous weapons irrelevant through just perk set. There are examples of power creep within the weapon types, ie Nirwens being so good compared to the other PRs, but because most of the perks can be shared within PRs that has to do more with the imbalance in stats.
But...yeah, power creep=/=imbalance
Kor of Memory
Member
Thats why you create weapon classes that all have unique identifiers to them.
Like, what if Scout rifles were only good at range but all of them had Third eye on by default? And no other weapon class could have that?
What if hand cannons were the only weapons that could have luck in the chamber?
What if Auto rifles all have glass half empty?
I'm not talking about this being their only perk, just that it's a staple perk of the weapon type.
Edit: kind of like how all sidearms spawn with ammo by default.
Twilight Gap
Member
power creep is also buffing everything else instead of nerfing the problems, like if everything else was buffed to be as good as the Trinity from Year One
toastyToast
Member
The reason why pulses are running amok is because they have absolutely no competition at mid range where hand cannons were still viable.
I think the best thing to do is normalize range as it refers to pulse rifles and hand cannons to indicate they directly compete with each other.
Range is just useless in general when it comes to directly comparing different classes of weapons.
I think the best thing to do is normalize range as it refers to pulse rifles and hand cannons to indicate they directly compete with each other.
Range is just useless in general when it comes to directly comparing different classes of weapons.
BreezyLimbo
Banned
This could work. Kinda like manufacturers having their own sets of unique scopes or whatever, just taken further to a weapon type having unique perks that are automatically active.
I like that idea alot. Mix it up between manufactrer and weapon type
I don't trust Bungie at all with nerfs. They should just bring back hand cannons and make all weapons more viable. Honestly I am tired of Bungie nerfing things. Their goal is to make everything average and that is rather annoying for PVE.
Also, the meta with hand cannons was so much better and promoted movement. Honestly, it's thanks to TLW that I fell in love with Destiny PVP. That gun was so flexible and fun to use.
I fully support the school of thought implemented in Modern Warfare 2: making everything OP and let people decide how they want to play. What we have now in Destiny is everyone using pulse rifles.
Also, the meta with hand cannons was so much better and promoted movement. Honestly, it's thanks to TLW that I fell in love with Destiny PVP. That gun was so flexible and fun to use.
I fully support the school of thought implemented in Modern Warfare 2: making everything OP and let people decide how they want to play. What we have now in Destiny is everyone using pulse rifles.
Ruthless_Barbarian
Member
Need 2 more for oryx hm. We're at the checkpoint..
I'll be taking a break from fallout to raid.
Twilight Gap
Member
worth a try i guess.
BreezyLimbo
Banned
Leagues a special case. The new releases tend to be extremely powerful when compared to older champions in the same role, ie Gnar compared to most tops. But Riot tends not to buff older characters unless theyre planning a remake. Its why characters like Nocturne, Swain, etc have been out creeped in their lanes.
Bungies balance isnt that bad yet. Lets hope it never reaches that.
Also, a good example of power creep right now in Destiny are the new subclasses. Theyre all extremely power compared to vanilla classes.
Sounds good, Ill be there.
Jest Chillin
Member
It would effectively be power creep to specifically buff all other weapons because to compete with with Pulse right now the majority of them would end up having a faster time to kill than they currently do (whether that's achieved through RoF, Impact, or straight Dmg buff). Right now the TTK for every weapon is in a good place but Pulse's have good range, good stability and the nature of the burst generally means that it hits harder per bullet than AR's while putting more bullets downrange faster than Scouts and enjoy longer range and higher accuracy than HC's.
Outside of HC's needing an accuracy buff specifically, a straight buff to any of the other weapon classes would invariably make them stronger than Pulse's... which then means Pulses would need to be buffed, and so on and so forth. Power creeping.
Kor of Memory
Member
As it stands, whatever weapon class in Destiny has the best cover at Mid-range wins.
Suros won in the beginning because it reach beyond normal AR range.
HCs won later because it could compete in close encounters, as well as mid, and even some Scout ranges.
Pulses are winning now because they are the best for every situation.
You can't balance these weapons based off of range like you could old Halo weapons, because in Destiny, you always have a secondary weapon on hand. You wouldn't balance halo 3 around AR starts if everyone also spawned with Snipers.
Bungie is focusing too much on the "ARs are close range, Scouts are far range..." and need to find a way to make weapon classes more unique.
Else they all just devolve into "Guns" and weapon class doesn't matter, just TTK.