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Destiny |OT36| Fifty Shades of TTK

J

Jest Chillin

Member
Afrocious said:
TTK is an expansion.

Destiny 2 is going to be a new game.
Click to expand...

Destiny 2 isn't a new game though. Our characters and items will persist and in a more meaningful way than say.. Mass Effect sequels. When that happens, it's usually called an Expansion.

However, since Bungie used the terminology of "Expansion" on TDB and HoW, which were considerably smaller than TTK and presumably smaller than 'Destiny 2', people don't know what to expect in terms of the amount of content they're getting and what they're going to be asked to pay for.

It needs to be explicitly clarified. Because people will, understandably, be pissed if they're asked to pay for TDB/HoW size content after the addition of the cosmetic cash shop. However, if they get that for free and are only asked to pay for TTK/Destiny 2 sized content once a year or year and a half, then it becomes more acceptable.
 
G

GhaleonEB

Member
Jest Chillin said:
Ah.. but see Queens Wrath (Missions and Items with stats) and Iron Banner (Unique Bounties and Items with Stats) are Events that add playable content while Festival of the Lost only adds superficial content (Quests with no meaningful reward and cosmetic items).

So when they say Events.. I think Queens Wrath, Iron Banner, and ToO. When they say "experiences" it sounds less substantial. Things to do that are fun but ultimately don't progress your character either vertically or horizontally.
Click to expand...

This does get into semantics, but I think it's important: let's distinguish "content" from "events" if for no reason but to distinguish temporary things to do with permanent things to do. Events are basically temporary content. So the Festival of the Lost is an event (temporary) while the map they released is permanent content. At least, that's how I've come to understand how they define this kind of stuff.
 
B

BreezyLimbo

Banned
Jest Chillin said:
Destiny 2 isn't a new game though. Our characters and items will persist and in a more meaningful way than say.. Mass Effect sequels. When that happens, it's usually called an Expansion.

However, since Bungie used the terminology of "Expansion" on TDB and HoW, which were considerably smaller than TTK and presumably smaller than 'Destiny 2', people don't know what to expect in terms of the amount of content they're getting and what they're going to be asked to pay for.

It needs to be explicitly clarified. Because people will, understandably, be pissed if they're asked to pay for TDB/HoW size content after the addition of the cosmetic cash shop. However, if they get that for free and are only asked to pay for TTK/Destiny 2 sized content once a year or year and a half, then it becomes more acceptable.
Click to expand...

When you start up Destiny 2, you will have the choice between a Green Engram, Blue Engram, or Red Engram. Choose wisely, the one you pick you'll carry forward.
 
T

Twilight Gap

Member
If the money from emotes and DLC is being used to fund substantial content and monthly balance updates to this game, who cares?

Fish gotta swim, birds gotta eat. Can't think of any game where i didn't want to buy additional content for it, and that costs dinero to develop. I'm frothing at the mouth waiting for the definitive edition of Ori and the Blind Forest. As soon as it was announced, people said they wanted it to be a free add-on and Moon came out and blatantly stated that they couldn't afford to release that amount of content for free. Game development...how does it work?

Now if all that money was going into Activision's pocket into Destiny 2 and this game didn't receive any substantial updates in the mean time, i call shotgun on the rage train.
 
X

XenoRaven

Member
ocean said:
Help me understand the problem with cosmetic micro transactions in a full priced game or why I should care if they're added.

Take any full priced game with zero DLC. A finished product, if you will. It's a game you love. Or hate. A game you play daily. Or which you finished and happily out away satisfied. Or one you rage quit out of early cause you didn't like it. Doesn't matter.

Developer decides to sell a costume or skin or hat or whatever. I can totally see you, as a consumer, airing an opinion about the value offered. You might not like it in particular, or not care about cosmetics in general. Or maybe you like it but think it's overpriced so you pass on it. Or maybe you happen to like it and agree with the asking price so you buy it.

So far, this is absolutely standard supply and demand. Like literally any product or service ever, consumers' averaged aggregate utility curves and the supplier's set price will meet somewhere. The success of the product/service will depend on the supplier's ability to gauge these consumer utility curves - basically, finding a profit-maximizing price. Perhaps at US$10 they'll sell 1,000 units whereas they'd have sold a million units at US$1. Consumers are ultimately kings here, as businesses aren't price-setting in an open market with access to information.

So, no snark or sarcasm, tell me where the issue comes up here because I genuinely don't see it.
Click to expand...
People want to hate Destiny.
 
O

ocean

Banned
XenoRaven said:
People want to hate Destiny.
Click to expand...
Lol true but I've seen this often. A guy called Sterling had a video which nearly gave me cancer on the subject of micro transactions.

It's like a large part of the gaming community is either completely oblivious to the most basic notions of free markets or they're being obtuse and asking games to be some sort of special service for some reason where you get things for free because integrity. I genuinely don't get it.

And it bothers me a little because I've spent roughly a third of my life studying Economics, Finance and Business. I've worked as an analyst and interned as a wealth manager, I've seen so many different business models across industries it's hard to keep up.

But the dynamics from the hyper vocal hardcore minority are extremely bizarre and I can never really understand how people are serious in their denouncement of companies making money by offering people stuff they voluntarily pay for because they want.
 
F

FStop7

Banned
All I will say about this what-funds-what and the purpose of the "live team" is that it's been weeks and Quiver is still broken because of the Shadowshot glitch and the Omnigul farming thing is still unpatched. And matchmaking in PvP is still as busted now as it was a year ago.
 
S

stb

Member
flkraven said:
I'm totally fine with a big expansion released next September as DLC. All along, I assumed that the big, TTK sized stuff would cost money. I assumed that these micro transactions would take care of the smaller, HoW-style expansions. Maybe I'm a pessimist, but this article says that I should expect a $20, small expansion in the next few months.
Click to expand...

I'm quoting you, but addressing the general resurgence of this topic caused by the Gamespot article, because I'm really confused by the reaction to it.

Here are the 2 quotes from Hirshberg:

"I think they're already co-existing [...] We had a full year of expansions to the game that have been very well received and sold quite well. More recently, you've seen us introduce smaller, in-game purchases that allow people to customize their experience and express themselves; those have been very well received and have sold well also. I think we've already shown that DLC and microtransactions can co-exist and that our community is hungry for more great content."
Click to expand...

"As far as any shifts in strategy, I don't have any announcments [sic] today, but I think we have a lot of options at our disposal [...] And the reason for that of course is that we have such great engagement with this game."
Click to expand...

Some notes about this:
- he uses "DLC" and "expansions" interchangeably, as does Gamespot.
- he makes no comment about the scale of DLC/expansions relative to other DLC/expansions
- Neither Hirshberg nor Gamespot say to expect $20 TDB/HOW-level expansions. I'm not saying we WON'T get them, he absolutely leaves the door open for them.
- I'm not sure why anyone would expect dumps of content like TDB/HOW-level expansions funded by the MT's. Deej's post that Ghaleon quoted, above, goes out of its way to say it's funding stuff by the live team. I, and others, optimistically speculated that stuff almost-as-big-as TDB or things akin to any of activities within HOW (POE, some story missions, TOO) don't seem out of the realm of possibility, but those were the upper bounds.
- I think it's really irresponsible of "games journalism" to post crap that amounts to "Expansions are free now! Thanx, mictrotransactions!" without ironclad confirmation.

Personally, I don't think we'll see $20 TDB/HOW expansions. Multiple releases of dubious value splinter the userbase, and Luke and others have gone on record saying they don't think they met their quality expectations. I'm still hopeful we'll get stuff like the Festival alongside more meaningful things (story missions, strikes, maybe even strike+/babyraid activities, then TTK-style drops every 6 months.
 
J

Jest Chillin

Member
GhaleonEB said:
This does get into semantics, but I think it's important: let's distinguish "content" from "events" if for no reason but to distinguish temporary things to do with permanent things to do. Events are basically temporary content. So the Festival of the Lost is an event (temporary) while the map they released is permanent content. At least, that's how I've come to understand how they define this kind of stuff.
Click to expand...

Stuff like this is why there is confusion.

Hawkian said:
heh. I feel a strong need to say "we'll see" on that one.
Click to expand...

BreezyLimbo said:
When you start up Destiny 2, you will have the choice between a Green Engram, Blue Engram, or Red Engram. Choose wisely, the one you pick you'll carry forward.
Click to expand...

I can't even imagine the level of backlash that would happen if Destiny 2 didn't carry over all of your data including items, vault, etc.. That's something that was explicitly said would happen over the life of the game. This isn't even "you can go over there" kind of stuff. It was much more definitely promised.
 
A

Afrocious

Member
in destiny 2, the final boss will be your destiny 1 guardian equipped with a fatebringer, hammer, and gjally scaled up to year 3 numbers
 
P

PuMa

Member
ocean said:
Lol true but I've seen this often. A guy called Sterling had a video which nearly gave me cancer on the subject of micro transactions.

It's like a large part of the gaming community is either completely oblivious to the most basic notions of free markets or they're being obtuse and asking games to be some sort of special service for some reason where you get things for free because integrity. I genuinely don't get it.

And it bothers me a little because I've spent roughly a third of my life studying Economics, Finance and Business. I've worked as an analyst and interned as a wealth manager, I've seen so many different business models across industries it's hard to keep up.

But the dynamics from the hyper vocal hardcore minority are extremely bizarre and I can never really understand how people are serious in their denouncement of companies making money by offering people stuff they voluntarily pay for because they want.
Click to expand...

JIM Sterling? He hates on everything. That's kind of his thing for whatever reason.
 
O

ocean

Banned
Jest Chillin said:
Stuff like this is why there is confusion.





I can't even imagine the level of backlash that would happen if Destiny 2 didn't carry over all of your data including items, vault, etc.. That's something that was explicitly said would happen over the life of the game. This isn't even "you can go over there" kind of stuff. It was much more definitely promised.
Click to expand...
It would be nice but tbh rather meaningless. I mean Y1 stuff sits completely unused now, imagine once you add an entirely new tier on content on top of it.

If balancing the PvP sandbox requires wiping out stashes of bullshit weaponry I would happily give it all up in an instant.

I'd be OK with keeping emblems, shaders, ships etc. but bringing weapons forward would be a largely symbolic gest since it would be totally useless (already is) in PvE while limiting their ability to fix PvP.
 
C

commish

Jason Kidd murdered my dog in cold blood!
ocean said:
Lol true but I've seen this often. A guy called Sterling had a video which nearly gave me cancer on the subject of micro transactions.

It's like a large part of the gaming community is either completely oblivious to the most basic notions of free markets or they're being obtuse and asking games to be some sort of special service for some reason where you get things for free because integrity. I genuinely don't get it.

And it bothers me a little because I've spent roughly a third of my life studying Economics, Finance and Business. I've worked as an analyst and interned as a wealth manager, I've seen so many different business models across industries it's hard to keep up.

But the dynamics from the hyper vocal hardcore minority are extremely bizarre and I can never really understand how people are serious in their denouncement of companies making money by offering people stuff they voluntarily pay for because they want.
Click to expand...

Well, at the very basic level, microtransactions for these cosmetic items means that they are not free. People prefer to get desirable items through playing the game, whether that's an outfit, a shader, a dance move, etc, and not by paying money. If Bungie starts charging for things they could otherwise give the player for free, then it's pretty obvious how the player loses out.

Also keep in mind that there are millions of gamers who have spend the last 10, 15, 20+ years playing games where, once you pay the initial fee, you get all content free of charge. You don't have to pay extra fees for stuff. It's not so easy to break that mindset for some folks.
 
O

ocean

Banned
PuMa said:
JIM Sterling? He hates on everything. That's kind of his thing for whatever reason.
Click to expand...
I'll give him the benefit of the doubt and assume he knows what he's saying is absolute none sense but he's pandering to his audience by saying what they want to hear.

But this audience is apparently not being sarcastic when they claim moral outrage over a company selling stuff. That's the part I genuinely don't get. There might be a big aspect I'm totally ignoring - I have to believe there is. Because the alternative would be sharing my hobby with a large swath of fellow gamers who are beyond clueless as to how anybody anywhere makes money.
 
X

xVaalbarAx

Member
Afrocious said:
in destiny 2, the final boss will be your destiny 1 guardian equipped with a fatebringer, hammer, and gjally scaled up to year 3 numbers
Click to expand...

MjdGgPHVRFmeKBzCqBSR_Skeletor%20Exit.gif
 
F

flkraven

Member
ocean said:
Help me understand the problem with cosmetic micro transactions in a full priced game or why I should care if they're added.

...

So, no snark or sarcasm, tell me where the issue comes up here because I genuinely don't see it.
Click to expand...

Here is a really minor example.

We currently have a special event going on (Halloween). I log into my main character and go trick-or-treating. I immediately get 1 glue and a legendary mask. I then get 3 quests. I've been logged in for 5 minutes.

It is pointless for me to fill my bag and attempt to do the three quests (I did them just to see what the rewards are). The only things you receive are temporary masks, and there are a no opportunities to get additional ones permanently. You get 2. Everything additional mask received is pointless.

...unless you spend money.

If I spend real money, I get more masks permanently, which means I have more incentive to run the additional content. By spending money, this content now has more value.

I know it really isn't 'that' big of a deal. It really is just cosmetic. However, this is supposed to be a 'special event'. Iron banner is a special event. The queens wrath was a special event. Neither were even remotely impacted by micro transactions. This one is entirely impacted by them. The fear that people have is that future ones will be impacted by them.

If every special event amounts to 'well, you really don't have any reason to partake unless you spend some silver' then that is a problem. Cosmetic or not.
 
O

ocean

Banned
commish said:
Well, at the very basic level, microtransactions for these cosmetic items means that they are not free. People prefer to get desirable items through playing the game, whether that's an outfit, a shader, a dance move, etc, and not by paying money. If Bungie starts charging for things they could otherwise give the player for free, then it's pretty obvious how the player loses out.

Also keep in mind that there are millions of gamers who have spend the last 10, 15, 20+ years playing games where, once you pay the initial fee, you get all content free of charge. You don't have to pay extra fees for stuff. It's not so easy to break that mindset for some folks.
Click to expand...
Well yeah you get everything you were promised. But the expectation that new stuff will be added but it should be free just strikes me as crazy.

The alternative to no paid Thrillet dance isn't a free Thriller dance. It's no Thriller dance at all, because why invest in something to give it away? There's a case to be made that you can give stuff for free but they're 100% of the time part of a business plan where you expect this move to later make you more money.

A genuinely benevolent gift from a corporation doesn't even make sense. Absolutely anything a company does has - or should have - the purpose of making a profit. That's literally the only reason companies exist. It's a bit different when a company is privately owned since the owners, being human, can be irrational and intentionally lose money.

But a public corporation? It pays people - from janitors to the CEO and everyone in between - to make its owners (shareholders) money. That's what they're there for. A CEO driving his company down a path which isn't, to the best of his knowledge, the most profitable avenue available is just guilty of irresponsible management. And that kind of executive is quickly weeded out (with good reason).
 
P

PuMa

Member
ocean said:
I'll give him the benefit of the doubt and assume he knows what he's saying is absolute none sense but he's pandering to his audience by saying what they want to hear.

But this audience is apparently not being sarcastic when they claim moral outrage over a company selling stuff. That's the part I genuinely don't get. There might be a big aspect I'm totally ignoring - I have to believe there is. Because the alternative would be sharing my hobby with a large swath of fellow gamers who are beyond clueless as to how anybody anywhere makes money.
Click to expand...

Yeah, some people just WANT to be angry all the time. Ignorance doesn't help, of course.
 
P

phen0m24

Member
Afrocious said:
in destiny 2, the final boss will be your destiny 1 guardian equipped with a fatebringer, hammer, and gjally scaled up to year 3 numbers
Click to expand...

AFRO

Your guardian will only be one of the encounters, there will be 5 others - the other 5 will be Eris' fireteam, all of whom were taken by Oryx and brought back.

I didn't read that Sorrow Book so if i'm totally off ignore me or something


BNG if you do this I expect royalties, and I won't charge as much as those guys from Infinity Ward. K?
 
J

Jest Chillin

Member
ocean said:
It would be nice but tbh rather meaningless. I mean Y1 stuff sits completely unused now, imagine once you add an entirely new tier on content on top of it.

If balancing the PvP sandbox requires wiping out stashes of bullshit weaponry I would happily give it all up in an instant.

I'd be OK with keeping emblems, shaders, ships etc. but bringing weapons forward would be a largely symbolic gest since it would be totally useless (already is) in PvE while limiting their ability to fix PvP.
Click to expand...

It's not meaningless. Weapons and Gear not having endgame viability do not make them meaningless. Carrying over your Weapons and Gear means not having to start over at square one with White quality items in the next game. It also means that your characters still *feel* like the Guardians that you've journeyed with over all this time. Yes they would be quickly replaced by the new weapons and gear but only after using them for the initial mission content.

And that's not even addressing the need to keep things like your Weapon Parts, Armor Parts, Strange Coins, Faction Rep, Marks, Trials coins, Ammo packs, etc..
 
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