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Destiny |OT36| Fifty Shades of TTK

S

someday

Banned
ocean said:
Help me understand the problem with cosmetic micro transactions in a full priced game or why I should care if they're added.

Take any full priced game with zero DLC. A finished product, if you will. It's a game you love. Or hate. A game you play daily. Or which you finished and happily out away satisfied. Or one you rage quit out of early cause you didn't like it. Doesn't matter.

Developer decides to sell a costume or skin or hat or whatever. I can totally see you, as a consumer, airing an opinion about the value offered. You might not like it in particular, or not care about cosmetics in general. Or maybe you like it but think it's overpriced so you pass on it. Or maybe you happen to like it and agree with the asking price so you buy it.

So far, this is absolutely standard supply and demand. Like literally any product or service ever, consumers' averaged aggregate utility curves and the supplier's set price will meet somewhere. The success of the product/service will depend on the supplier's ability to gauge these consumer utility curves - basically, finding a profit-maximizing price. Perhaps at US$10 they'll sell 1,000 units whereas they'd have sold a million units at US$1. Consumers are ultimately kings here, as businesses aren't price-setting in an open market with access to information.

So, no snark or sarcasm, tell me where the issue comes up here because I genuinely don't see it.
Click to expand...
I'll bite. I am one of the few Destiny lovers who hates the introduction of silver and paid emotes, hats, whatever. I preferred spending full-price for the game and its DLC and receiving everything that the game had to offer. That was the "contract" I went into, I pay you what you ask, and I get your whole game. I gave them $140 in the past 13 months for the game. I feel that selling silver now changes the dynamic of the game and unless I want to give more money on top of what I paid I will no longer have the entire Destiny experience. I also don't feel that $7 for one dance is a reasonable price but the fact that so many people paid it happily, it will skew the economic environment for the rest of us and there is no going back. It doesn't help either when people are constantly saying that they would pay silver for shaders, weapon parts, sparrows, and more. Bungie isn't stupid. People said they'd pay a lot of money for the Thriller dance and Bungie delivered.

I am in the minority and I know it. Reddit had a survey a day or two ago and like 75% of the respondents had bought silver. I'm sure most won't understand and will tell me how optional emotes are etc but it is the biggest reason I've stopped playing Destiny. For the record, I was also against anyone actually paying $20 for the collector's stuff and thought it was completely crazy to re-buy all of the Destiny content for the physical collector's edition.
 
R

Ruthless_Barbarian

Member
flkraven said:
Here is a really minor example.

We currently have a special event going on (Halloween). I log into my main character and go trick-or-treating. I immediately get 1 glue and a legendary mask. I then get 3 quests. I've been logged in for 5 minutes.

It is pointless for me to fill my bag and attempt to do the three quests (I did them just to see what the rewards are). The only things you receive are temporary masks, and there are a no opportunities to get additional ones permanently. You get 2. Everything additional mask received is pointless.

...unless you spend money.

If I spend real money, I get more masks permanently, which means I have more incentive to run the additional content. By spending money, this content now has more value.

I know it really isn't 'that' big of a deal. It really is just cosmetic. However, this is supposed to be a 'special event'. Iron banner is a special event. The queens wrath was a special event. Neither were even remotely impacted by micro transactions. This one is entirely impacted by them. The fear that people have is that future ones will be impacted by them.

If every special event amounts to 'well, you really don't have any reason to partake unless you spend some silver' then that is a problem. Cosmetic or not.
Click to expand...


True but then these are cosmetic items. They don't do anything, just like the emotes and dances.

You are already getting 2 for free, so get the ones you like and make them permanent. If you want more, you'll have to spend some cash. I don't see a problem with this.

The quests were fun to complete but having a layer of rng on the masks meant you had to grind for cosmetic items, which was stupid. And the reward from the quest was totally underwhelming.
 
O

ocean

Banned
flkraven said:
Here is a really minor example.

We currently have a special event going on (Halloween). I log into my main character and go trick-or-treating. I immediately get 1 glue and a legendary mask. I then get 3 quests. I've been logged in for 5 minutes.

It is pointless for me to fill my bag and attempt to do the three quests (I did them just to see what the rewards are). The only things you receive are temporary masks, and there are a no opportunities to get additional ones permanently. You get 2. Everything additional mask received is pointless.

...unless you spend money.

If I spend real money, I get more masks permanently, which means I have more incentive to run the additional content. By spending money, this content now has more value.

I know it really isn't 'that' big of a deal. It really is just cosmetic. However, this is supposed to be a 'special event'. Iron banner is a special event. The queens wrath was a special event. Neither were even remotely impacted by micro transactions. This one is entirely impacted by them. The fear that people have is that future ones will be impacted by them.

If every special event amounts to 'well, you really don't have any reason to partake unless you spend some silver' then that is a problem. Cosmetic or not.
Click to expand...
But realistically, the alternative to paid masks isn't free masks - it's no masks. Why offer these things for free? There's a case to be made that they could be given for free to make the core product more compelling - like Irom Banner is. But realistically, this event is obviously, and from a distance, a way to monetize a holiday. The same way a mall pays Santa to sit your kid on his lap.

If people in general didn't think masks were buying, the initiative was unprofitable for Bungie. Consumers are kings and have final say. This would signal them: don't bother for Christmas; we're not into this. If they sold a hundred thousand Thriller dances, then consumers have clearly signaled they like this stuff enough to pay for it. And responsible management would mean making more of these services available to satisfy consumer demand.

But this is going down a very specific path. I was just wondering why people think micro transactions in a full priced game are bad. It's like saying expensive electronics shouldn't offer optional warranty or something. Like its whatever these things will live or die by consumer's revealed preferences (purchases).

Why the outrage?
 
D

Deku Tree

Member
Hawkian said:
heh. I feel a strong need to say "we'll see" on that one.
Click to expand...

According to Jason S at Kotaku, Who has had a lot of real scoops, Destiny 2 is going to be a $60 paid expansion marketed as a new game that exists in the same universe and uses existing areas and also has new areas.

He has been posting a bunch in the destinys paid DLC gaming side thread today.
 
R

Ruthless_Barbarian

Member
Deku Tree said:
According to Jason S at Kotaku, Who has had a lot of real scoops, Destiny 2 is going to be a $60 paid expansion marketed as a new game that exists in the same universe and uses existing areas and also has new areas.

He has been posting a bunch in the destinys paid DLC gaming side thread today.
Click to expand...

If that is true, it is going to piss off a lot of players. A LOT.
 
S

scarletham

Member
Deku Tree said:
According to Jason S at Kotaku, Who has had a lot of real scoops, Destiny 2 is going to be a $60 paid expansion marketed as a new game that exists in the same universe and uses existing areas and also has new areas.

He has been posting a bunch in the destinys paid DLC gaming side thread today.
Click to expand...

Ooh boy, here we go
 
S

Slammin_Hammon

Member
DeathJr said:
If that is true, it is going to piss off a lot of players. A LOT.
Click to expand...

Agreed. I will be very pissed if it isn't a completely new standalone experience if only so that last gen would finally stop holding Destiny back. If it's just an expansion it will be built on the same shitty cross gen bones as it currently is.
 
D

Dhruv_hanom

Member
Deku Tree said:
According to Jason S at Kotaku, Who has had a lot of real scoops, Destiny 2 is going to be a $60 paid expansion marketed as a new game that exists in the same universe and uses existing areas and also has new areas.

He has been posting a bunch in the destinys paid DLC gaming side thread today.
Click to expand...

So since it's an expansion, it'll be cross gen?
 
O

ocean

Banned
someday said:
I'll bite. I am one of the few Destiny lovers who hates the introduction of silver and paid emotes, hats, whatever. I preferred spending full-price for the game and its DLC and receiving everything that the game had to offer. That was the "contract" I went into, I pay you what you ask, and I get your whole game. I gave them $140 in the past 13 months for the game. I feel that selling silver now changes the dynamic of the game and unless I want to give more money on top of what I paid I will no longer have the entire Destiny experience. I also don't feel that $7 for one dance is a reasonable price but the fact that so many people paid it happily, it will skew the economic environment for the rest of us and there is no going back. It doesn't help either when people are constantly saying that they would pay silver for shaders, weapon parts, sparrows, and more. Bungie isn't stupid. People said they'd pay a lot of money for the Thriller dance and Bungie delivered.

I am in the minority and I know it. Reddit had a survey a day or two ago and like 75% of the respondents had bought silver. I'm sure most won't understand and will tell me how optional emotes are etc but it is the biggest reason I've stopped playing Destiny. For the record, I was also against anyone actually paying $20 for the collector's stuff and thought it was completely crazy to re-buy all of the Destiny content for the physical collector's edition.
Click to expand...
Thank you! I've been waiting for you. You're the guy I want to understand. First and foremost, top points for making your case so clearly. I'll try to further the issue with a comparable degree of clarity, but I'll apologize in advance if I fail in doing so; English is not my first language.

I think a key concept here is the "whole game". This is a lot harder to define in a connected, constantly updated game. The "contract" you had with Bungie, so to speak, entitled you to all the content outlined and promised for you at the moment of sale. With TTK, for instance, your US$40 was the asking price for a new Raid, a new Patrol area, 8 PvP maps, a few new PvP game modes, 4 Strikes, and a new weapon and armor Arsenal. Failing to deliver on these grounds - the ones upon which you informed your decision to buy - would not only be immoral but fraudulent.

Here's the thing. Can "whole game" be stretched to apply to content not featured in the promised product or service? Whether it's the Thriller dance, an Eris mask or, moving forward, a new map or whatever they decide to sell - it wasn't a part of what you purchased. Or, more clearly, it wasn't part of what Bungie vowed to deliver in exchange for your purchase.

So here's the way it goes. They can continue to develop and produce new things for us, or they can call it a day because you got what you paid for. Developing and producing new content and experiences is probably what most active players would like, but it only seems natural that it should be offered at a price. And, as a consumer, it's natural for you to decide whether the offered product or service is worth it at the asking price.

I'll part from your specific example - you believe US$7 for Thriller is too much. That's perfectly legitimate - absolutely every product and service ever conceived has value which can only be subjective, by standard definition. Intrinsic value is an old fallacy. Some might have paid US$20, while maybe you'd have skipped even at US$0.50.

The point is, the "whole game" you paid for is still in your console. What you don't have access to are things not included in what you paid for, and made available at a price for those who want it.

Why do you feel like playing less? Would the game have more value for you if these dances had never been introduced despite being, for all intents and purposes, the same amount of content as you have right now? And why?

Sorry to badger you but I keep asking about this when it comes up and nobody had taken the time to give me a detailed answer before. Hope you can take some time to further inform me.
 
B

Bizazedo

Member
Deku Tree said:
According to Jason S at Kotaku, Who has had a lot of real scoops, Destiny 2 is going to be a $60 paid expansion marketed as a new game that exists in the same universe and uses existing areas and also has new areas.

He has been posting a bunch in the destinys paid DLC gaming side thread today.
Click to expand...

But half of Taken King was old content in reverse, how much more can they re-use?! :).
 
T

Twilight Gap

Member
Deku Tree said:
According to Jason S at Kotaku, Who has had a lot of real scoops, Destiny 2 is going to be a $60 paid expansion marketed as a new game that exists in the same universe and uses existing areas and also has new areas.

He has been posting a bunch in the destinys paid DLC gaming side thread today.
Click to expand...

Yea let's hope that doesn't happen unless they completely rebuild Earth, Venus, Mars, Moon and Dreadnaught so that they aren't limited by last gen. A "reboot" of those locations is fine, but I don't think anyone wants to pay for the same tiny ass patrol zones a third time.
 
O

ocean

Banned
Twilight Gap said:
Yea let's hope that doesn't happen unless they completely rebuild Earth, Venus, Mars, Moon and Dreadnaught so that they aren't limited by last gen.
Click to expand...
Twilight pls. If Destiny 2 doesn't have a loading pause between The Divide and The Rocketyard, no purchase from me.
 
O

Owensboro

Member
I'm looking for a Heroic Mode raid that I can participate in up to a point (only Light level 305). PSN: OwensboroEsq. (I've got no problem being replaced on fights I can't do).
 
R

Ruthless_Barbarian

Member
Owensboro said:
I'm looking for a Heroic Mode raid that I can participate in up to a point (only Light level 305). PSN: OwensboroEsq. (I've got no problem being replaced on fights I can't do).
Click to expand...

You can do everything up to sisters/daughters as a 305. Can also be carried at hm oryx if the other 5 players are good and don't mind.
 
A

Arrrammis

Member
Kyoufu said:
I wonder what they'll call the Cabal expansion.

___ of the Emperor?
Click to expand...
I still think they'll call it "The Darkness Rising", because at the end of the Value T'auruc strike, Zavala says this(with the same capitalization in subtitles): " But in The Darkness Rising, new leaders will rise. We must be ready, guardian".
 
F

flkraven

Member
DeathJr said:
True but then these are cosmetic items. They don't do anything, just like the emotes and dances.

You are already getting 2 for free, so get the ones you like and make them permanent. If you want more, you'll have to spend some cash. I don't see a problem with this.

The quests were fun to complete but having a layer of rng on the masks meant you had to grind for cosmetic items, which was stupid. And the reward from the quest was totally underwhelming.
Click to expand...

ocean said:
But realistically, the alternative to paid masks isn't free masks - it's no masks. Why offer these things for free? There's a case to be made that they could be given for free to make the core product more compelling - like Irom Banner is. But realistically, this event is obviously, and from a distance, a way to monetize a holiday. The same way a mall pays Santa to sit your kid on his lap.

If people in general didn't think masks were buying, the initiative was unprofitable for Bungie. Consumers are kings and have final say. This would signal them: don't bother for Christmas; we're not into this. If they sold a hundred thousand Thriller dances, then consumers have clearly signaled they like this stuff enough to pay for it. And responsible management would mean making more of these services available to satisfy consumer demand.

But this is going down a very specific path. I was just wondering why people think micro transactions in a full priced game are bad. It's like saying expensive electronics shouldn't offer optional warranty or something. Like its whatever these things will live or die by consumer's revealed preferences (purchases).

Why the outrage?
Click to expand...

But why do you guys both keep saying that we get this stuff for free? From Day 1, Destiny has been sold as a 10 year experience with special events and MMO-like events. When we bought the $60 product and subsequently the $35 expansion, this was all assumed to be part of the package. One of the biggest complaints was that Bungie didn't full deliver on this, since Iron Banner was largely lackluster, routine, and disappointing. Once again this was assumed when buying TTK, since the microtransactions weren't mentioned until after it was released.

What if the next Iron Banner has only 2 items that can be earned by playing (and you get it in the first 5 minutes), but emblems and other cosmetic items can be earned but only kept permanently if you spend silver. Is that okay?
 
F

FStop7

Banned
flkraven said:
Here is a really minor example.

We currently have a special event going on (Halloween). I log into my main character and go trick-or-treating. I immediately get 1 glue and a legendary mask. I then get 3 quests. I've been logged in for 5 minutes.

It is pointless for me to fill my bag and attempt to do the three quests (I did them just to see what the rewards are). The only things you receive are temporary masks, and there are a no opportunities to get additional ones permanently. You get 2. Everything additional mask received is pointless.

...unless you spend money.

If I spend real money, I get more masks permanently, which means I have more incentive to run the additional content. By spending money, this content now has more value.

I know it really isn't 'that' big of a deal. It really is just cosmetic. However, this is supposed to be a 'special event'. Iron banner is a special event. The queens wrath was a special event. Neither were even remotely impacted by micro transactions. This one is entirely impacted by them. The fear that people have is that future ones will be impacted by them.

If every special event amounts to 'well, you really don't have any reason to partake unless you spend some silver' then that is a problem. Cosmetic or not.
Click to expand...

As an experiment, I bought a bunch of those bag things using silver. I got multiples of every mask _except_ for Atheon. I've probably been through 30 to 40 masks, split between the free and paid bags, and I have yet to see a single Atheon. I have all of the others. The fact I can't get that single mask means I can't complete that one "fall off of the Tower" quest. And the fact I can't just go buy that one, specific mask to complete the set has nullified my interest in doing any of those quests or generally participating in any more of the seasonal events. If they're going to apply the same BS levels of RNG to something as benign as halloween masks then tie quests to it I'm not going to bother.

Oh and I got like 6 Eris Morn masks, which makes me hate her even more. And the Warden mask looks like a prolapsed asshole.
 
B

border

Member
Donny Hayabusa said:
Any tips how my brother and me can get through nightfall? We're both light lvl 290 but it seems impossible sometimes ;( is a 3 man Team necessary?
Click to expand...

It's not necessary to have a third person, but it will certainly make life a whole lot easier. On a Tuesday it's pretty easy to find people here who want to run it on PS4.

What part of it is giving you trouble?
 
B

Bizazedo

Member
ocean said:
Twilight pls. If Destiny 2 doesn't have a loading pause between The Divide and The Rocketyard, no purchase from me.
Click to expand...

Speaking of loading screens..

Has anyone's menus gotten really slow / bad? For like the last month or so? I don't think I could've done The Chaperone quests if it had taken as long to load my menus and switch weapons as it does now.
 
R

Ruthless_Barbarian

Member
Donny Hayabusa said:
Any tips how my brother and me can get through nightfall? We're both light lvl 290 but it seems impossible sometimes ;( is a 3 man Team necessary?
Click to expand...

Use the modifiers to your advantage. Chain supers to counter trickle.

Airborne means you should shoot while jumping for extra damage.

Specialist favors special weapon damage. Prioritize shotguns and snipers.
 
B

Bizazedo

Member
DeathJr said:
Use the modifiers to your advantage. Chain supers to counter trickle.

Airborne means you should shoot while jumping for extra damage.

Specialist favors special weapon damage. Prioritize shotguns and snipers.
Click to expand...

Telesto. Fire. Jump. If you're in the air when the needles explode, profit.
 
B

brianjones

Member
Bizazedo said:
Speaking of loading screens..

Has anyone's menus gotten really slow / bad? For like the last month or so? I don't think I could've done The Chaperone quests if it had taken as long to load my menus and switch weapons as it does now.
Click to expand...

I've had some hairy situations trying to pop 3 o' coins
 
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