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Destiny |OT43| Just What the Doctor Ordered

T

Trakan

Member
FyreWulff said:
It's interesting to see all the former CoD players collide with the former Halo players on matchmaking.


Halo players played for 10 years with "sweaty" (i hate that term, not like anyone cares) games after a while, literally just every game, and every single game was important or noted.

CoD players played for 10 years where you either won big or lost big but is more less played in aggregate, with nobody really caring about specific games persay.

And now both sides are now playing Destiny, a mishmash of both styles and userbases....

as for me now, I wait for the weekly reset.. in Rock Band :lol
Click to expand...

I played 8500 games of Halo 2. The difference in that game was Ranked and Social playlists. I wasn't playing people at or above my skill level on top of having them redbar all over the place in literally every single game I played. I know you've replied to me about social playlists in the past, but I really don't believe there was any sort of skill included at all when matchmaking.

irrotational said:
I really don't understand why people expect PvP in general, and the Crucible in particular to ever be relaxed/ a place to chill out etc.
Click to expand...

Lars, one of the top Crucible guys at Bungie. He said it. It was before Taken King, and I don't know the exact quote, but it was something like "Players take the Crucible too seriously. It's a place to go in and have fun."

Edit: Puma linked to the quote.

This is a good video on the subject. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pi0cKGIb6nE
 
F

FyreWulff

Member
Trakan said:
I played 8500 games of Halo 2. The difference in that game was Ranked and Social playlists. I wasn't playing people at or above my skill level on top of having them redbar all over the place in literally every single game I played. I know you've replied to me about social playlists in the past, but I really don't believe there was any sort of skill included at all when matchmaking.
Click to expand...

They were, though, they just loosened the skill range restriction.

When they changed Team Snipers from Social -> Ranked in Halo 2, they let everyone keep their invisible rank, so a lot of people woke up to having stuff like a sudden rank 38. It was the only time they ever did that.

The main things that made Halo 2 social easier was that since the rank was invisible, people just played less hard, in addition to the presence of guests. People would play music, or talk about stupid shit, and focus on that more than winning, because to most people there was nothing to "lose". Player expectation plays a huge role.
 
T

Trakan

Member
GhaleonEB said:
What SBMM debacle?
Click to expand...

This is the front page of the Bungie forums right now.

2pYO4qv.png
Click to expand...
 
K

Kyne

Member
I'm one LL away from 400... and after that I honestly don't think I have a reason to play anymore?

I love everything about Destiny, but there simply isn't any new content to keep me around. I guess sparrow racing might be back soon? FF15/TLG will keep me busy for the next few months.. after that I'm not sure what I'll be doing.

Until then, it's into the sunset I go.

tumblr_o67mekNvxB1szfdb3o2_540.gif
 
T

tearsintherain

Member
I only play solo q and I find crucible just fine, since they've adjusted the IB and weekly bounties to not REQUIRE wins I don't really care win/loss. To me ranked (which Destiny doesn't have) and trials is sweaty/"pro", and regular crucible is just the equivalent of quickplay in Overwatch or regular PVP in halo/COD. Win, lose, whatever I just focus on my score and having fun.

It actually was funny yesterday as I was trying to get 3-4 medals to "carry over" to next IB and it would get frustrating when my team would start winning. No, dammit, we're supposed to lose!
 
F

FyreWulff

Member
tearsintherain said:
I only play solo q and I find crucible just fine, since they've adjusted the IB and weekly bounties to not REQUIRE wins I don't really care win/loss. To me ranked (which Destiny doesn't have) and trials is sweaty/"pro", and regular crucible is just the equivalent of quickplay in Overwatch or regular PVP in halo/COD. Win, lose, whatever I just focus on my score and having fun.

It actually was funny yesterday as I was trying to get 3-4 medals to "carry over" to next IB and it would get frustrating when my team would start winning. No, dammit, we're supposed to lose!
Click to expand...

remember when the medallion system wasn't in IB

so

much

quitting
 
S

SpecX

Member
I thought I was in the minority giving Destiny a break. I'm going to call it quits till SRL hits and focus on other games I've put off over the past months while I focused exclusively on Destiny.

Got through IB and only reached LL 390. For whatever reason, once I got there, IB refused to give me any drops higher than 391 and I kept getting a primary or chest armor, nothing else to increase my LL. While I haven't completed RoI 100%, I have reached my exhaustion point with the game. I don't feel the desire to get the Outbreak Prime exotic, don't feel the need to run the raid again even though it was fun, don't feel the need to complete the book.

The game just doesn't have the draw for me like it use to and it's hard to find myself investing more than 30-60 mins without wanting to do something else. Bungie still has gold with Destiny, but they need to really improve on community outreach and content availability when Destiny 2 arrives. This community has been great and I honestly wouldn't have stuck around with Destiny this long without you guys.
 
S

Silvard

Member
So I had been on a trip since the 3rd of November and I couldn't play Destiny. What's happened since then? I came home less than 10 hours before IB was over and I saw it was Clever Dragon week. Had to rush to get some IB ranks in and noticed that it's like I have to learn how to play the game again.
 
F

FyreWulff

Member
GhaleonEB said:
Oh. That sounds really really dumb.


The medallion system is what makes solo IB possible. It's great. I don't think I played before it was in there, but yeah, if you could only rank up for wins, people would just bail as soon as they fell behind.
Click to expand...

Yep. Every time the other team pulled away, or a win wasn't clear in the last third of the game solo queue, your entire team would quit.

Which would lead to new people being added.. and then seeing they got put on the losing team, quit.
 
I

irrotational

Member
Trakan said:
Lars, one of the top Crucible guys at Bungie. He said it. It was before Taken King, and I don't know the exact quote, but it was something like "Players take the Crucible too seriously. It's a place to go in and have fun."

Edit: Puma linked to the quote.
Click to expand...

Hi - I knew Lars said this as there was quite a lot of commentary on it at the time. My take at the time (watched the video then, haven't re-watched it now) was that he was trying to make the point that Destiny PvP is not an ultra competitive eSport shooter, with £10m prize pools. it just didn't come across very well.

I don't *think* he was saying that people should hit matchmake and then not even try to shoot other people.

I think the post on player expectation nails it. I absolutely believe that people can have a fun and relaxing time in the crucible, but that is mainly a state of mind. I don't believe that people can EXPECT matchmaking to deliver them a fun and relaxing time.

Sure - match making can over-ride that state of mind by delivering unplayable matches. If SBMM is too high the matches will be unplayable due to lag, but if CBMM is too high they will be unplayable due to lop-sided teams.

Now in the short term, having more CBMM may be fine - lag goes down and people are happy, but what about the bottom third of players? They will have more and more matches where their personal performance is poor, and they will just leave. Now there are new people at the bottom, and they will have worse and worse personal performances, so they leave.

The balance between SBMM and CBMM is a choice for Bungie about how they manage player annoyances in a shrinking playerbase. As they tip towards one or the other they can either let lag and matchmaking times get worse, or they can lose players faster as they do badly match after match.

I don't think the lag, or the fact that people are the same skill level as me (usually they are better) is intolerable so I don't think there is any reason to shrink the playerbase further.
 
L

Lee

Member
Silvard said:
So I had been on a trip since the 3rd of November and I couldn't play Destiny. What's happened since then? I came home less than 10 hours before IB was over and I saw it was Clever Dragon week. Had to rush to get some IB ranks in and noticed that it's like I have to learn how to play the game again.
Click to expand...

Nothing has changed balance wise in that time, outside of everyone being at 400 and using Clever Dragons, which make you flinch like a shy child before killing you nearly instantly.
 
D

Deku Tree

Member
The problem with year 1 matchmaking was a lot of blow outs which led to quitting. Too much of the time you would load into a match that was already over because of join in progress. In year 1 it would happen over and over again when you would solo que. Everyone complained about it. Now we have SBMM with a lot less quitting and people complain about too many "sweaty games". I hate all the sweaty games especially when one player on your team goes AFK and you lose. I also hated all the rampant quitting in year 1.
 
E

E92 M3

Member
irrotational said:
I really don't understand why people expect PvP in general, and the Crucible in particular to ever be relaxed/ a place to chill out etc. This is not just aimed at the original poster a few posts up but reddit in general.

It's called the crucible for goodness sake (I'm assuming here it's named after the pot as opposed to the snooker hall in Sheffield, UK)

I just can't figure out what "relaxed fun" is, in a PvP setting. If it means easily shooting people whilst chatting, then that's no fun for the other people and they will leave....I can also imagine it getting quite boring over time.

If it means just shooting at things whilst chatting, then do that in PvP and not care about losing, or do a strike or something. IMHO the whole point of PvP is that you're playing against humans, who are hard to beat, as opposed to AI which is often relatively easy. To me it feels like choosing to do a raid and then complaining that you need to work as a team, it seems to miss the point of what the game mode is for, and that there are alternatives.

Taking the other main argument, connection quality, then the game can only go so far...people have bad connections etc etc. Aggressive CBMM would lead to a lot of one sided, boring games.

The post above is interesting about COD versus Halo. I haven't played much CoD or BF but they seem quite large battlefields and relatively impersonal, in that you will come across a lot of different people on the enemy team. In Halo, and Destiny especially, it's lower player counts and you can build up more of a rivalry with the other team. Maybe that makes people more invested in each individual match, and therefore makes it feel sweatier.
Click to expand...

Year 1 is what the Crucible should have always been. It was perfect.
 
V

vin-buc

Member
SBMM is really bad in this game - 95% of the games I'm in have at least one red bar. I've started reporting every single person with crappy connections - not sure what it'll come from it but I'm trying to do something.

After reading all the posts about tick rate - I think maybe Bungie should start there? It's amazing how many trades one could have in a match - and it just doesn't add up. Can't there be an algorithm that matches connection and skill? Better yet - dedicated servers?
 
C

CrudeDiatribe

Member
Trakan said:
Lars, one of the top Crucible guys at Bungie. He said it. It was before Taken King, and I don't know the exact quote, but it was something like "Players take the Crucible too seriously. It's a place to go in and have fun."
Click to expand...

And someone else @ Bungie said to go play a strike if you wanted relaxed. Who knows which better represents the overall feeling (actions suggest the non-relaxed version).

I have friends for whom SBMM is the only way for them to not get slaughtered in PvP; pure CBMM would likely lead to not having any fun. I think if they wanted to get better then the more diverse lobby would be better for that, but I'm not sure they do.

How should pure CBMM cope with a fireteam with transatlantic or transpacific members? I'm one of those assholes that regularly plays in fireteams spanning 7 timezones. Usually everyone is green-bar, but sometimes some of us go yellow or red.

Anyway, I'm content with the status quo of sweaty solo-queuing because I'm mediocre enough to not suffer for it very often but I appreciate those that aren't.

E92 M3 said:
Year 1 is what the Crucible should have always been. It was perfect.
Click to expand...

Deku Tree said:
The problem with year 1 matchmaking was a lot of blow outs which led to quitting. [...] In year 1 it would happen over and over again when you would solo que. Everyone complained about it.
Click to expand...

Like, opinions, man.
 
L

LunaticPuma

dresses business casual
Deku Tree said:
The problem with year 1 matchmaking was a lot of blow outs which led to quitting. Too much of the time you would load into a match that was already over because of join in progress. In year 1 it would happen over and over again when you would solo que. Everyone complained about it. Now we have SBMM with a lot less quitting and people complain about too many "sweaty games". I hate all the sweaty games especially when one player on your team goes AFK and you lose. I also hated all the rampant quitting in year 1.
Click to expand...

Mercy rule could help with the quitting now. It would be nice if they implemented advanced Mercy options like if X number quite, end the game depending on score difference etc.
 
T

Trakan

Member
irrotational said:
Hi - I knew Lars said this as there was quite a lot of commentary on it at the time. My take at the time (watched the video then, haven't re-watched it now) was that he was trying to make the point that Destiny PvP is not an ultra competitive eSport shooter, with £10m prize pools. it just didn't come across very well.

I don't *think* he was saying that people should hit matchmake and then not even try to shoot other people.

I think the post on player expectation nails it. I absolutely believe that people can have a fun and relaxing time in the crucible, but that is mainly a state of mind. I don't believe that people can EXPECT matchmaking to deliver them a fun and relaxing time.

Sure - match making can over-ride that state of mind by delivering unplayable matches. If SBMM is too high the matches will be unplayable due to lag, but if CBMM is too high they will be unplayable due to lop-sided teams.

Now in the short term, having more CBMM may be fine - lag goes down and people are happy, but what about the bottom third of players? They will have more and more matches where their personal performance is poor, and they will just leave. Now there are new people at the bottom, and they will have worse and worse personal performances, so they leave.

The balance between SBMM and CBMM is a choice for Bungie about how they manage player annoyances in a shrinking playerbase. As they tip towards one or the other they can either let lag and matchmaking times get worse, or they can lose players faster as they do badly match after match.

I don't think the lag, or the fact that people are the same skill level as me (usually they are better) is intolerable so I don't think there is any reason to shrink the playerbase further.
Click to expand...

In the past year, Bungie has done nothing but try to make it a competitive esports shooter. They are a part of MLG now. I take that Lars quote to mean exactly as it sounds. Basically the opposite of how Crucible is now.

Like I've said before, switching to purely CBMM doesn't mean that the bottom third of players will face better players than them 100% of the time. There's games when they'll do well and games where they'll do poorly. So what if you get people quitting sometimes? People quit now because of lag. They'll go on to the next match and someone else will join.

I do think PVP is intolerable. It has been for the past year and I play it a fraction of the time that I used to. I have to wait longer for games to start because it's trying to find people of my skill level regardless of where they live, I get an invincible redbar warrior that tops the leaderboards as my opponent, and I constantly have to use the best of the best weapons to compete. It's the exact opposite of my definition of fun.

CrudeDiatribe said:
And someone else @ Bungie said to go play a strike if you wanted relaxed. Who knows which better represents the overall feeling (actions suggest the non-relaxed version).

I have friends for whom SBMM is the only way for them to not get slaughtered in PvP; pure CBMM would likely lead to not having any fun. I think if they wanted to get better then the more diverse lobby would be better for that, but I'm not sure they do.

How should pure CBMM cope with a fireteam with transatlantic or transpacific members? I'm one of those assholes that regularly plays in fireteams spanning 7 timezones. Usually everyone is green-bar, but sometimes some of us go yellow or red.

Anyway, I'm content with the status quo of sweaty solo-queuing because I'm mediocre enough to not suffer for it very often but I appreciate those that aren't.
Click to expand...

That "go play a strike" line is absurd. I can't believe the guy is still allowed to interact with the community let alone keep his job.

Again, CBMM does not make it so you or your friends constantly get matched up with people who are better. COD is completely random and it seems to work just fine. At the very least, they need to add ranked and social playlists.

I realize there are times when people are just playing from different timezones. That would be an anomaly in a CBMM environment. It would not be the norm.
 
GlamFM

GlamFM

Banned
Slowest reset day ever?

Looking for one HM raid tonight, around 7 Germany time (1,5hrs from now)

-Glam
-Friend of Glam
-arya41
-Silver
-
-
 
I

irrotational

Member
E92 M3 said:
Year 1 is what the Crucible should have always been. It was perfect.
Click to expand...

I'm afraid it can't be because there aren't enough players now.

Trakan said:
In the past year, Bungie has done nothing but try to make it a competitive esports shooter. They are a part of MLG now. I take that Lars quote to mean exactly as it sounds. Basically the opposite of how Crucible is now.

Like I've said before, switching to purely CBMM doesn't mean that the bottom third of players will face better players than them 100% of the time. There's games when they'll do well and games where they'll do poorly.
Click to expand...

No but the vast majority of players they face will be better than them. if you're in the bottom 20% (a fair amount of players out of the total pool) then if you fight a team of 6, on average 1 will be worse than you and 5 will be better....and that's every single match. Sure you might win some matches BUT you'll lose the majority of your gunfights time after time.

Trakan said:
So what if you get people quitting sometimes? People quit now because of lag. They'll go on to the next match and someone else will join.

I do think PVP is intolerable. It has been for the past year and I play it a fraction of the time that I used to. I have to wait longer for games to start because it's trying to find people of my skill level regardless of where they live, I get an invincible redbar warrior that tops the leaderboards as my opponent, and I constantly have to use the best of the best weapons to compete. It's the exact opposite of my definition of fun.
Click to expand...

This is absolutely my point - the player base is shrinking, so either you have more lag, and people quit that way, or you have bad players getting stomped all the time and they leave.

IMHO people will leave more quickly, in bigger numbers, if they get stomped, whereas people will tolerate lag for longer.

Take yourself as an example - you have tolerated a year of lag - how long would you tolerate the other team having 5 out of 6 players better than you?

Trakan said:
That "go play a strike" line is absurd. I can't believe the guy is still allowed to interact with the community let alone keep his job.

Again, CBMM does not make it so you or your friends constantly get matched up with people who are better. COD is completely random and it seems to work just fine. At the very least, they need to add ranked and social playlists.

I realize there are times when people are just playing from different timezones. That would be an anomaly in a CBMM environment. It would not be the norm.
Click to expand...

I still think Lars is kind of right, he expressed it badly. If you want to relax, via gameplay (I am ignoring relaxing by doing X with friends as X could be fishing, or PvP or raiding) then do some easy game play.

Is COD really completely random? I genuinely have no idea.
 
S

sturgboski

Member
So I know we went off the "relax" comment I made but I mean I didnt really mean fully shut off and relax. There has to be a middle ground between that and me desperately struggling to not break my controller in frustration. There were few and far between matches that I truly can say "boy I am having fun and enjoying this" while playing Iron Banner. And look, I am not good by any means (I think had a 4.6 KD and a 5 KD in two matches throughout this weekend and both my team was split immediately there after). If a KD between .8 and 1.3 means I should get paired against sweaties and try-hards, then something is up (also gratifying when paired with teammates who dont seem to know what a controller is).

Seriously, there has to be some sort of middle ground. As I mentioned, I would like to get good, I would like to improve. However, for the most part its just so discouraging. And if we cant change matchmaking then make a playlist with no secondaries...

I am no network engineer, but would it be possible to do two layers? CBMM for first pool and then narrow down further with SBMM or going the opposite way if needed.
 
I

irrotational

Member
sturgboski said:
So I know we went off the "relax" comment I made but I mean I didnt really mean fully shut off and relax. There has to be a middle ground between that and me desperately struggling to not break my controller in frustration. There were few and far between matches that I truly can say "boy I am having fun and enjoying this" while playing Iron Banner. And look, I am not good by any means (I think had a 4.6 KD and a 5 KD in two matches throughout this weekend and both my team was split immediately there after). If a KD between .8 and 1.3 means I should get paired against sweaties and try-hards, then something is up (also gratifying when paired with teammates who dont seem to know what a controller is).

Seriously, there has to be some sort of middle ground. As I mentioned, I would like to get good, I would like to improve. However, for the most part its just so discouraging. And if we cant change matchmaking then make a playlist with no secondaries...

I am no network engineer, but would it be possible to do two layers? CBMM for first pool and then narrow down further with SBMM or going the opposite way if needed.
Click to expand...

Hey there - I am probably replying too much in this thread at the moment so I'll shut up after this :)

What is causing your frustration? Bad lag causing glitches and invulnerable opponents? Normal lag causing trade kills rather than a clean kill? You doing well but the team losing? Or something else?

What would cause you to have fun in iron banner? Winning most fights and getting a high K/D? or would a K/D of 1 with clean, lag free, fights be fun?

I know it's a lot of questions but I'm trying to work out what you want from the matchmaking and how changing it would give you that (as a sort of test case for sentiment across reddit and bungie's own forums)

I guess SBMM means people will never visibly improve, their K/D should stay around 1 until they get to the very top of the player pool.

With CBMM they would start with a very bad KD and it would improve over time, but they would have a bad time at the start.
 
T

Trakan

Member
irrotational said:
Hey there - I am probably replying too much in this thread at the moment so I'll shut up after this :)

What is causing your frustration? Bad lag causing glitches and invulnerable opponents? Normal lag causing trade kills rather than a clean kill? You doing well but the team losing? Or something else?

What would cause you to have fun in iron banner? Winning most fights and getting a high K/D? or would a K/D of 1 with clean, lag free, fights be fun?

I know it's a lot of questions but I'm trying to work out what you want from the matchmaking and how changing it would give you that (as a sort of test case for sentiment across reddit and bungie's own forums)

I guess SBMM means people will never visibly improve, their K/D should stay around 1 until they get to the very top of the player pool.

With CBMM they would start with a very bad KD and it would improve over time, but they would have a bad time at the start.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I can't give you the actual source but Bungie has stupidly said in the past that they want everyone to have a 1:1 K/D and a 50/50 Win/Loss ratio.
 
X

xplicitone

Member
SBMM just makes it a laggy sweatfest every match. That gets old REALLY quickly. Even it wasn't laggy this gets old quickly. This basically requires you to use the META weapons to have a chance.

Year 1 was the best because it about connection. Some games were sweaty and others were not. Just a mix. I mean Bungie is random/RNG with EVERYTHING else.

That's also why Year 1 trials was awesome and helping people get to the Lighthouse was easier. Crispy connections make the game enjoyable.

Obviously there might not be a big enough playerbase now but there really should be a ranked and unranked playlists.
 
F

Flipside

Member
So any "TeamFirstTry" members from last week's CM want to go for a reset raid later this night? ;) I will probably be online in an hour.
 
E

EternalNewbie

Member
xplicitone said:
SBMM just makes it a laggy sweatfest every match. That gets old REALLY quickly. Even it wasn't laggy this gets old quickly. This basically requires you to use the META weapons to have a chance.

Year 1 was the best because it about connection. Some games were sweaty and others were not. Just a mix. I mean Bungie is random/RNG with EVERYTHING else.

That's also why Year 1 trials was awesome and helping people get to the Lighthouse was easier. Crispy connections make the game enjoyable.

Obviously there might not be a big enough playerbase now but there really should be a ranked and unranked playlists.
Click to expand...

Totally agree. 4 out of the 5 days of Iron Banner I played was either getting bodied by fireteams of 6 (vs my 3) who did nothing but bunny hop and slide/shotgun around the entire map or it was half a team or more of red bars. How is either scenario fun?
 
A

Ambitious

Member
Apparently, people really like the raid sniper? Why? Would you recommend using it over an 1000YS with Triple Tap? Its impact isn't that much higher, and apart from the range, all other stats are lower.
 
D

Deku Tree

Member
Ambitious said:
Apparently, people really like the raid sniper? Why? Would you recommend using it over an 1000YS with Triple Tap? Its impact isn't that much higher, and apart from the range, all other stats are lower.
Click to expand...

It's the highest impact sniper in the game. Comparable to black spindle. Not "that much higher" is relative. And it does bonus damage to Fallen. It's the best sniper to use for the current PvE end game content in the game. But really you can use anything if you've got the skills.
 
F

Flipside

Member
It really does seem like a slow reset this week. If anyone is starting a HM (+CM) between now and two hours let me know (PSN: FlipsideXL)
 
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