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[alex chilton]

Just finished it and loved it, but the backhalf of the game definitely gets tedious. I think it was a mix between the quality of the levels and my impatience with stealth since I had so many guns. There were many little minor annoyances, like the repetitious animations, the constant hacking, aug and weapon balance gets messed up by the 2nd half of the game, VA was soso, Pritchard was annoying, Jensen seemed a bit slow in the head. But the core gameplay and stealth are so damn fun those things don't matter much.

I'm gonna start my 2nd playthrough, and I'm gonna try to hack as little as possible (definitely not going through every computer like I did this time) and not gonna upgrade augs, limit my weapon pickups. I think those things should fix most of the gameplay problems I had

 

[Alucrid]

Yes. Basically, pretty much every dead person counts against you, no matter how they died. (unless it was scripted of course)

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

fuck. i'm already close to the end of the game too. shitshithsithishtishtishishist

 

[Zeliard]

Some complaints are dumb, but some aren't. All I'm saying is I think it's not that unreasonable for people to not be inclined to go back and play a game that's 11 years old, even if certain elements still hold up really well. Some of them really don't, and the farther we move along the less acceptable those kind of concessions are going to be for some people.

I just think people get a little too dismissive or defensive when talking about older games that endear themselves as classics. That thread you're talking about was pretty stupid, but not all of the stupidity was coming from one side of the aisle.

The complaints I'm concerned with are specifically the dumb ones. If you don't take issue with the ones I've brought up and criticized then you're arguing against a straw man. :>

Nowhere did I ever say that people should have to enjoy Deus Ex or any game, that it was somehow immune to criticism, or that everything is necessarily a concession. I've generally been responding to specific things people say about it that I find silly and/or amusingly telling of the state of gaming today.

Planescape: Torment is my favorite game of all-time and I hold it in much higher regard than Deus Ex, but I'm not going to think much of it if someone says there's too much reading involved (as many do). That's a reasonable enough stance despite how much I wish everyone could immerse themselves in it. Some of the things I've heard thrown at Deus Ex recently, not so much.

It's a shame in a way because there are plenty of meaningful and timely criticisms you can make about Deus Ex - including relative to things HR does better - but it gets lost in the hyperbole and quasi-trolling. HR may signal the start of a resurgence of sorts for this genre of games, which would be a happy thing, so Deus Ex 1 will largely be seen as the precursor and become increasingly relevant (having the benefit of actual distribution which System Shock 2 still doesn't, unfortunately).

I kind of think they're going in the right direction. Many of the new augs and the praxis system really need to stay, they just need to ditch the useless ones and replace them with abilities that tie into other augs, and expand the level design a bit to allow for a wider variety of builds (aka: dont making hacking essential).

Otherwise yeah, Deus Ex was broken on the aug front as well. It cant be easy, but if they're not totally overhauling the system they should be able to polish it further in a sequel.

Hacking definitely breaks it. Makes it way too easy to amass Praxis points, especially when you can still hack stuff you already found a code for.

If they reduced XP gain and thus greatly limited the end amount of augs you can get, that would be one way of limiting it.

Personally, I've always been a fan of hard limits, though some others hate them. Vanilla Deus Ex limiting you to one aug per slot permanently was a good concept, though would have worked much better if all of the augs were probably balanced against each other.

 

[[Nintex]]

As a big FF fan its one of my favorite pieces of art in the game. Screams of way more class then most FF character designs.

I had seen that poster too I didn't catch the Tron reference though!

Another awesome point for Deus Ex

 

[Grisby]

I had seen that poster too I didn't catch the Tron reference though!

Another awesome point for Deus Ex

:O

 

[Aegus]

The FF poster would have been amazing if it was still for Versus.

 

[SamuraiX-]

The FF poster would have been amazing if it was still for Versus.

Would've been so perfect. XFD

I don't think SE would have been willing to take such a big slap to the face like that though.

 

[Exclamation-One]

I think it's fair to call people whiners when they complain about things that constitute a lack of hand-holding, yes, and particularly when those people are a large part of the reason we get the many dumb games that people lament. Things like hit-detection, overall janky combat, etc, those are valid reasons. In fact, those were faults with Deus Ex on the day of its release, especially when you had hyper-responsive games like Quake at the time.

But plenty of other things can be easily pointed to as faults of the player for simply not being accustomed to games that don't tell you "go here now, do this now, etc." In that other thread someone was trying to actually argue that Deus Ex should have had various dialogue prompts at certain points to remind the player to heal. I mean, really. There are plenty of legit criticisms about Deus Ex and I share many myself, but many honestly boil down to "please hold my hand, I'm scared and don't know what to do."

This is just naive. We're inundated in games with various markers telling players exactly where to go and what to do, with developers looking at idiot testers who can't find their way out of a square room. Even DX:HR now has a detailed map, a radar, AND an objective locator, and all three of them include your destination. Compare that to what Deus Ex did with the map and concessions to modern gaming should be obvious.

Hey, now. I did the tutorial, I did pay attention, but the interface itself was a little clunky. I had to click on a 'Health' tab to access healing, which was not in the tutorial.

It was mainly me being confused/frustrated with the interface.

For those of you who have trouble getting into it: the PS2 version of Deus Ex retains all of the complexity, adds some in certain scenarios, and is much, much easier to control and navigate than the original PC release. Give it a shot!

 

[Replicant]

Hacking definitely breaks it. Makes it way too easy to amass Praxis points, especially when you can still hack stuff you already found a code for.

Eh, I don't see what's wrong with it. Plus, hacking can be really hard and can get you noticed by the guards at time so it's not like you can hack everything easily. It comes with a risk and a reward. I like that you can choose to do this or not.

 

[subversus]

Hey, now. I did the tutorial, I did pay attention, but the interface itself was a little clunky. I had to click on a 'Health' tab to access healing, which was not in the tutorial.

!

yeah, about that medbot...

 

[odin toelust]

The biggest problem with hacking that I have are all of the level one hacks that are on plot advancing doors. Seems stupid to me. The only doors with low security are the ones that actually lead somewhere

 

[subversus]

The biggest problem with hacking that I have are all of the level one hacks that are on plot advancing doors. Seems stupid to me. The only doors with low security are the ones that actually lead somewhere

they all lead somewhere. Sometimes to shortcuts, sometimes to goodies.

 

[A Human Becoming]

Looking for fourth boss tips.

Spoiler

I already took care of the thing in the middle. Now I just have to kill her right? The electrified flooring, zombie soldiers and bots are making this a real pain.

they all lead somewhere. Sometimes to shortcuts, sometimes to goodies.

Sometimes the goodies are pretty weak for the security level IMO.

 

[Exclamation-One]

yeah, about that medbot...

The medbot in the tutorial immediately went to the Health screen. There was 1 Tab.

The medbot in the med-lab was on the Augmentations screen. There were 2 Tabs, and I had to click over to access Health.

Does that make it clear?

 

[Wallach]

The complaints I'm concerned with are specifically the dumb ones. If you don't take issue with the ones I've brought up and criticized then you're arguing against a straw man. :>

Nowhere did I ever say that people should have to enjoy Deus Ex or any game, that it was somehow immune to criticism, or that everything is necessarily a concession. I've generally been responding to specific things people say about it that I find silly and/or amusingly telling of the state of gaming today.

I didn't say you said any of those things.

My point was "modern gamers that whine about Deus Ex" is loaded when you follow it up with reasoning that doesn't apply to all of them. That's all I'm getting at. For the most part you seem to agree with me.

 

[subversus]

Sometimes the goodies are pretty weak for the security level IMO.

that's the risk, hehe.

 

[Confidence Man]

Personally, I've always been a fan of hard limits, though some others hate them. Vanilla Deus Ex limiting you to one aug per slot permanently was a good concept, though would have worked much better if all of the augs were probably balanced against each other.

Too bad the devs catered to the latter crowd. For all the flack Invisible War gets Ion Storm at least understood that you had to have those choices, even if they backpedaled a little and let you respec your biomods.

That's what happens when you pick and choose what constitutes the core of a game like Deus Ex, then pluck it out and present it in a new package.

 

[Zeliard]

Haha he's back!

Exclamation, if you're actually enjoying the PS2 version, and this hasn't just been some long con troll of yours, then that's awesome. Good for you. I'm not familiar with that version but apparently it's still quite Deus Ex, and if you're finding enjoyment from it that way then more power to you.

Eh, I don't see what's wrong with it. Plus, hacking can be really hard and can get you noticed by the guards at time so it's not like you can hack everything easily. It comes with a risk and a reward. I like that you can choose to do this or not.

Even with some people who become nervous when you start hacking, you can often finish it quickly enough that they're off alert.

There are a huge amount of things to hack, that's the problem, and each features bonus nodes for extra XP. You can clean out an entire room of enemies and then go around hacking the various doors, computers, and even the many alarm panels that are around. Alarm panels are pointless once no enemies are around but they still serve as a decent XP source. It's a combination of a huge amount of things to hack and hacking dispensing too much XP.

 

[A Human Becoming]

that's the risk, hehe.

I don't think there should be a risk at all. *shrugs* There should always be something good on the other side.

 

[Dresden]

Eh, I don't see what's wrong with it. Plus, hacking can be really hard and can get you noticed by the guards at time so it's not like you can hack everything easily. It comes with a risk and a reward. I like that you can choose to do this or not.

I don't think I failed a single hack once I got 3/3 in +stealth and went up to level4 hacking. You can do this very early, long before you leave the first hub.

 

[Trent Strong]

Fuck the first boss.

 

[Aquavelvaman]

Looking for fourth boss tips.

Spoiler

I already took care of the thing in the middle. Now I just have to kill her right? The electrified flooring, zombie soldiers and bots are making this a real pain.

Spoiler

There is a box on the central floor that you can stand on that doesn't get electrified. Here's how I did that fight:

Kill the first two computer girls, totally ignoring the turrets above (if you stand close enough they can't shoot you). At this point the zombie guards come out, I just put a gas grenade at both of the doors they come out of, they all fell asleep. Then I killed the last girl, stood up on the box, and shot the lady behind the glass until it was over. I used two emp grenades to kill the floor robots as they came out of their holes. I took 0 damage that fight.

 

[ColonelColon]

I don't think there should be a risk at all. *shrugs* There should always be something good on the other side.

But what is the risk, really? It's not like you could run out of hacking tools in Human Revolution. There's basically no trade off for hacking everything in the world.

 

[Wallach]

I don't think I failed a single hack once I got 3/3 in +stealth and went up to level4 hacking. You can do this very early, long before you leave the first hub.

Yeah, the stealth makes hacking a bit too easy. Some of the people I've talked to also don't seem to realize you should be taking the red nodes if they're reachable, which makes many of the hacks quite a bit easier.

 

[Balphon]

Looking for fourth boss tips.

Spoiler

I already took care of the thing in the middle. Now I just have to kill her right? The electrified flooring, zombie soldiers and bots are making this a real pain.

Spoiler

You need to shoot her shield until it breaks and then shoot her. Or, if you have the Laser Rifle, you can just shoot through the shield, in which case you don't even have to deal with the thing in the middle at all and the whole fight takes about 10 seconds.

 

[subversus]

I don't think there should be a risk at all. *shrugs* There should always be something good on the other side.

why???

 

[Meier]

This first boss is seriously difficult. Wow.

Hah, beat him right after I posted that. Phew.

 

[subversus]

This first boss is seriously difficult. Wow.

he's not...

 

[jim-jam bongs]

"I had to click on a Health tab to access healing" is probably the most telling complaint.

"How can developers expect me to deduce the Health screen is for viewing and modifying my health?! This needs a tutorial video."

 

[Sotha Sil]

God, doing a non-augmented playthrough must really suck without the unlocking device. I get the criticism now.

In other news, I really love this game.

 

[Zeliard]

I didn't say you said any of those things.

My point was "modern gamers that whine about Deus Ex" is loaded when you follow it up with reasoning that doesn't apply to all of them. That's all I'm getting at. For the most part you seem to agree with me.

Well, I definitely wasn't trying to paint everyone with one brush. Apologies if it seemed that way.

Too bad the devs catered to the latter crowd. For all the flack Invisible War gets Ion Storm at least understood that you had to have those choices, even if they backpedaled a little and let you respec your biomods.

That's what happens when you pick and choose what constitutes the core of a game like Deus Ex, then pluck it out and present it in a new package.

Well, I'm definitely not as hard as you are on this game.

The Deus Ex hard aug limit was definitely a better concept, in my view, but this master-of-all-trades problem HR has could have been alleviated to a degree with better XP balancing. They give you too much XP even if you go lethal and you can buy a decent number of Praxis kits from shops throughout the game, as well as find a few. Combined with some augs seeming pretty useless and the whole balance is a bit off.

Feels like everything in the Stealth tree is unnecessary, for one thing. As far as I'm concerned the default radar is already overpowered.

 

[Darklord]

If you are stealth and want to beat EVERY boss with easy, hoard proxy mines.

 

[Wallach]

I actually thought getting the radar upgrade made it harder to use. I was kind of mad I even bought it.

 

[renitou]

If you are stealth and want to beat EVERY boss with easy, hoard proxy mines.

Too true.

 

[Replicant]

There are a huge amount of things to hack, that's the problem, and each features bonus nodes for extra XP. You can clean out an entire room of enemies and then go around hacking the various doors, computers, and even the many alarm panels that are around. Alarm panels are pointless once no enemies are around but they still serve as a decent XP source. It's a combination of a huge amount of things to hack and hacking dispensing too much XP.

Well, I find it very useful. I'd have gotten stuck inside the police morgue if it wasn't for the extra hacking XP point. I didn't have enough praxis to upgrade to hacking level 3 door to sewer and that's the quickest way to exit. If I couldn't hack the other alarm etc, I would have to go all the way back to where I came from and that'd seriously diminish my fun playing the game. To me the fact that the option is there means you can choose or not choose to use it. If you think you're above it, then don't use it. I, on the other hand, will use any method necessary to complete the mission and if it means making my life easier and the game more fun, so be it.

 

[Neiteio]

I don't understand the one or two people in here complaining about DEHR's "hand-holding." Isn't there an option to turn off the waypoints/locators? I love having them on because I don't have time to waste running all over Detroit trying to figure out which alley leads to the X mark on the third floor of apartment Y. But if others don't like them, you can turn them off. Problem solved! Everyone can enjoy the game the way they like it.

Ditto for the allegations of excess Praxis points. Just don't use them all if you want the ones you do use to be more "meaningful." The rest of us can enjoy getting to try out more of Jensen's powers, as not all of us will be able to squeeze in a second playthrough anytime soon.

Also, that FFXXVII poster is awesome. As is the Blade of Shintaro motorcycle. As are the boxguards (especially the DPD variant). As are the tube-lights in Sarif Plaza, and the black balls suspended from Sarif's penthouse, and the red origami sculptures in Zhao's penthouse, and the auto-retracting blinds in Jensen's apartment, and the stalactite lighting on the ceiling of the LIMB Clinic. The triangulated patterns on men's pants are awesome. The floral motif on Jensen's jacket shoulders is awesome (is it on the replica jacket you can buy?). Everything Eliza wears is awesome.

Art direction = GOD TIER.

 

[Replicant]

Ditto for the allegations of excess Praxis points. Just don't use them all if you want the ones you do use to be more "meaningful." The rest of us can enjoy getting to try out more of Jensen's powers, as not all of us will be able to squeeze in a second playthrough anytime soon.

Precisely. Think it'd lessen your awesomeness? Then don't use it. The rest of us are not interested in becoming real spy. Just want to have some fun with the game.

 

[Chiggs]

he's not...

He's pathetically easy.

Keep your distance and don't get greedy.

 

[stay gold]

omg i just got to the

Spoiler

first boss fight, wtf were they thinking? can i cheese it somehow? i just want to see the rest of the game but i've gone all stealth/non lethal up to here and can't get past it

I just threw a few of those remote detonated mines (the blue ones) at his feet and blew him up, lasted about 30 seconds.

 

[eek5]

I actually thought getting the radar upgrade made it harder to use. I was kind of mad I even bought it.

Yeah you go from being able to tell where enemies are in relation to you to just knowing the amount of enemies around you.

 

[subversus]

He's pathetically easy.

Keep your distance and don't get greedy.

He can be killed from the short distance too if you have an upgraded shotgun.

But if you get closer when he's aware of his surroundings... lol.

 

[Wallach]

Yeah you go from being able to tell where enemies are in relation to you to just knowing the amount of enemies around you.

Yeah, exactly. Some areas had so many enemies (partially because of dudes on other nearby vertical levels) it was a pain in the ass to see what the fuck was around on the radar. The zoom out making all of the radar icons smaller just made it worse. Downgrade!

 

[Won]

It really liked how getting a bigger radar range and the vision cone upgrades can turn the radar into a complete mess. Fast technology advancement only causes problems!

 

[Pixel Pete]

Just finished the game the other day. One of the top 3 of the year for me, very memorable experience. My only main criticism is the graphics somewhat. Character models (that aren't main characters) are a bit chunky, lip sync is non-existent and some more refined engine details like complex shadows were missing. But the art direction more, FAR more than made up for those short comings.
You can tell they put a lot of thought into their environments, and that makes such a better impact than tesselated polys.
Combat was fun. It did lack the tank style run n gun that games like Crysis have (using crysis due to the gameplay type freedom it offers being similar in nature) but with the right Augs and good aim you could still pull it off.
While I'm on that, too many praxis points IMO. I had essentially everything except the lungs and fortify and stealth hacking unlocked. the last two did not impair my ability to hack at all.

I liked having multiple optional endings, but I can't help but feel a little let down by them individually. You could tell time was currency they didn't have when making the endings for the game, but the build up TO the ending was pretty epic. The

Spoiler

Panchaea

complex was awesome.

Also, what was up with Reed? You spend the entire game chasing down her attackers

Spoiler

and later chasing down herself

and all you get afterwards is

Spoiler

a finger wag and she runs off with Malik and we don't get to resolve the Adam vs Megan end of their story! =[

Anyway, the game I feel is up there with Witcher 2 - so good that you put off playing newer games you've never played to play it again, differently.

 

[Zeliard]

Well, I find it very useful. I'd have got stuck inside the police morgue if it wasn't for the hacking XP point. I didn't have enough praxis to upgrade to hacking level 3 door to sewer and that's the quickest way to exit. If I couldn't hack the other alarm etc, I would have to go all the way back to where I came from and that'd seriously diminish my fun playing the game. To me the fact that the option is there means you can choose or not choose to use it. If you think you're above it, then don't use it. I, on the other hand, will use any method necessary to complete the mission and if it means making my life easier and the game more fun, so be it.

You were presumably close enough to your next Praxis point that just hacking a couple things was enough to get you over the hump, so it was simply a coincidence there. Doesn't really have anything to do with hacking giving you too much XP, which is the crux of the issue here.

Nobody is criticizing hacking as a tool of progression. It's always been a huge part of Deus Ex. It's more the large impact it ends up having on the whole upgrade system, since hacking is a huge source of XP and there are no limitations to it beyond your hacking level. There's a problem with the design there when people defend it with "well then just don't use those excess Praxis points, or try hacking less."

 

[Confidence Man]

I don't understand the one or two people in here complaining about DEHR's "hand-holding." Isn't there an option to turn off the waypoints/locators? I love having them on because I don't have time to waste running all over Detroit trying to figure out which alley leads to the X mark on the third floor of apartment Y. But if others don't like them, you can turn them off. Problem solved! Everyone can enjoy the game the way they like it.

Ditto for the allegations of excess Praxis points. Just don't use them all if you want the ones you do use to be more "meaningful." The rest of us can enjoy getting to try out more of Jensen's powers, as not all of us will be able to squeeze in a second playthrough anytime soon.

Should I also cover the radar with masking tape so I can't see it, or should I simply rely on my self-control to provide a challenge that the game doesn't?

This kind of mentality goes against the instinct to exploit every advantage and the enjoyment that comes from overcoming an obstacle because you effectively and/or creatively used a limited means at your disposal.

 

[Neiteio]

Should I also cover the radar with masking tape so I can't see it, or should I simply rely on my self-control to provide a challenge that the game doesn't?

This kind of mentality goes against the instinct to exploit every advantage and the enjoyment that comes from overcoming an obstacle because you effectively and/or creatively used a limited means at your disposal.

Don't upgrade your radar then. And if your beef is with the radar being there in any fashion whatsoever, well, I wouldn't ever advocate removing it entirely from the game, though I'd be fine adding an option to turn it off like you can already do with the waypoints/locators. You can have options for both and make everyone happy. There's no need to "improve" the experience for some people by making it a chore for others. This game, like every game, should have hand-holding but also have options to turn the hand-holding off. To a degree, DEHR does that, and it's great.

 

[EmCeeGramr]

playing with debug mode is hilarious

 

[The Antitype]

If I sell an upgraded Assault Rifle, does every assault rifle I buy or find afterwards automatically come with those upgrades equipped?

 

[Neiteio]

playing with debug mode is hilarious

Example, or you're just up in my ho-ass modal verbs.