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[Zeliard]

Eh, you're nitpicking terms. "Accessible" in the same way DEHR is "accessible," meaning, still for the core gamer but clean, streamlined, etc, like Elder Scrolls going from shitty Excel spreadsheets in Oblivion to gorgeous skillset constellations that intuitively lay out your perks in Skyrim.

If you thought something already enormously dumbed down like Oblivion constituted "Excel spreadsheets," the original Thief games probably aren't for you. They're part of a string of games released around that time (the marketing term for them is "immersive sims") that had deep, complex gameplay and greatly limited hand-holding of any sort.

That extreme lack of hand-holding was a big part of their allure and success, and you can tell from the modern players who whine about Deus Ex 1 that many gamers have lost any sense of player agency in video games. People are used to playing so many modern games that restrict them severely and guide them by the hand step-by-step, that when they're given agency, it turns their world upside down.

Bioshock and Deus Ex: HR are examples of those types of games released today, with different results. I think HR is arguably the closest thing we've had to something strong in the genre since Bloodlines (unless you want to count the STALKER games), and it makes for a very respectable Deus Ex game, while Bioshock didn't even approach System Shock 2 despite being dubbed its spiritual successor (and don't even start, subversus. Nobody agrees with you ).

 

[LuchaShaq]

Boss fight spoilers/question/ramt

Spoiler

Namir fight, I have the new chip from LIMB as well. I have a heavily upgraded shotgun and heavy rifle, and even brought in a friendly turret, but I can't almost ever see him and then me and my turret will randomly explode the second I see him. What gives? I'm about two/three more tries from ditching the game and just youtubing the endings. Being blind and helpless isn't much fun.

Edit That was dumb just

Spoiler

hid in a corner and let the turret take forever to kill him but for some reason he didn't explode the turret this time oh well glad I'm passed it

 

[jim-jam bongs]

lol @ Oblivion needing a spreadsheet

 

[subversus]

here's frozenfoxy's Thief wakthrough:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YtG3orzS8l0&feature=results_video&playnext=1&list=PL6F71BDAE0A8AF3E6

Not sure I'm really feeling you on the Japanese influence thing.

I wanted to write about it later. Old Deus Ex had much more ways to go due to its jankiness and because it hadn't been playtested by a big department for a few years.

 

[bengraven]

Spoiler

Stack up some of the barrels next to the hoop and just drop the ball in.

Oh snap, thank you. haha

Those barrels next to it had little purpose anyway.

 

[Enco]

Think this will be the first game that gets a second play through from me.

Time to go all terminator!

 

[Wallach]

If you thought something already enormously dumbed down like Oblivion constituted "Excel spreadsheets," the original Thief games probably aren't for you. They're part of a string of games released around that time (the marketing term for them is "immersive sims") that had deep, complex gameplay and greatly limited hand-holding of any sort.

That extreme lack of hand-holding was a big part of their allure and success, and you can tell from the modern players who whine about Deus Ex 1 that many gamers have lost any sense of player agency in video games. People are used to playing so many modern games that restrict them severely and guide them by the hand step-by-step, that when they're given agency, it turns their world upside down.

Bioshock and Deus Ex: HR are examples of those types of games released today, with different results. I think HR is arguably the closest thing we've had to something strong in the genre since Bloodlines (unless you want to count the STALKER games), and it makes for a very respectable Deus Ex game, while Bioshock didn't even approach System Shock 2 despite being dubbed its spiritual successor (and don't even start, subversus. Nobody agrees with you ).

I don't think it's really fair to just brush off all those people as "whiners". There's a lot of aspects about Deus Ex that quite frankly are old and don't really stand up that well. In some of those cases they didn't quite measure up the day that game was released, and we've certainly come a long way since 2000. Asking players to accept those elements and look past them was a lot easier then than it is today, even if only for how new and brave the entire package of the game was. I'm not sure it's reasonable to still ask players to do that more than a decade later when that justification isn't relevant anymore. Definitely not to the point that I'd consider it a failing of the player if they decided against it - even if I thought they'd be missing out on something if they could.

 

[Neiteio]

lol @ Oblivion needing a spreadsheet

Yeah, a bit of a heavy-handed analogy on my part, but you know what I mean. By comparison, Skyrim's system is much more appealing.

 

[Neiteio]

here's frozenfoxy's Thief wakthrough:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YtG3orzS8l0&feature=results_video&playnext=1&list=PL6F71BDAE0A8AF3E6

Thanks for this.

 

[bengraven]

No1, just 26,000 units short of outperforming previous title Deus Ex: Invisible War’s lifetime sales in just 2 days.

I lolled.

And nearly cried: Deus Ex just might be here to stay. Eat it Family Guy, this is the best resurrection from the dead.

 

[Barack Lesnar]

Just beat it and am at a loss for words. This is my game of the generation. I soaked in every nook & cranny of this incredible world Eidos Montreal spent 4+ years creating and just got totally immersed into the story, gameplay, characters, and setting. There were issues but I felt they were minor.

The boss fight complaints were ridiculous... the first one sucked, the second was kinda cool, and the very last boss was actually fun. All in all, they encompassed about 20 minutes of my entire playthrough and I'd imagine it's the same for others... such a tiny % of the game incited so many hyperbole-laced tears, geez who cares. The first 2-3 'bosses' took me like less than 10 seconds each (they died after 2 Typhoons, not even 10 secs).

Other than that I felt there was too much hacking at the end and it became quite tedious and boring because I had 35+ stop worms and 40+ nuke viruses so it was just a matter of spamming the terminals. I didn't even get "Hacking: Stealth"; the only hacking augments I got were to get it to level 5 + the turrets and robots at the end due to excess points (and fun, lol).

The 10mm was crazy OP, which we discussed yesterday, but wow it was so much fun and so satisfying to use when upgraded to god-tier. The gunplay overall was REALLY good, which surprised me since this isn't some COD shooter. All the weapons felt great and satisfying, with REALLY strong and meaty sound effects. Sound is so key to the shooting elements in games.

Agreed with others about getting too many Praxis points. I still had 15 open skills at the end but they were crappy ones. A few more augment branches could've helped but I'm not sure what they could've added. It must have been a herculean effort to get all of these working together in tandem... lift heavy objects, high jump, Icarus, double takedown... try to imagine how much time and effort it must have took to design these massive environments and hubs so most of the abilities could be viable and used. Must have took forever, especially in a 20+ hour game. Eidos Montreal = god tier.

Finally, if the day comes where games of this scope, magnitude, and production value aren't made anymore or aren't feasible due to financial and time constraints, I'll hand in my gaming card. Simple as that. For me, Deus Ex HR is what this hobby is all about.

lol @ my time played... that's gotta be a record? I'd say about 3 hours of that was afk or alt-tabbed so more like 58. I was shocked I got the Foxiest of Hounds achievement. I mean I did try to get it and had to reload millions of times but I thought for sure some random alarm probably went off early in the game. That was a nice surprise!

 

[Nose Master]

Oh snap, thank you. haha

Those barrels next to it had little purpose anyway.

I did the barrel thing, too. I'm wondering if you could just "dunk" with the jump augment.

 

[Rufus]

If you thought something already enormously dumbed down like Oblivion constituted "Excel spreadsheets," the original Thief games probably aren't for you. They're part of a string of games released around that time (the marketing term for them is "immersive sims") that had deep, complex gameplay and greatly limited hand-holding of any sort.

I'm trying to think of any aspect of the Thief games that would make them incomprehensible, or very inaccessible today. It's a stealth game. Maybe more difficult, but if you can stealth in Splinter Cell and Metal Gear Solid, you can stealth in Thief. What exactly would be over people's heads nowadays? The only thing that I can see is navigation, finding your way around, but anyone should have enough spacial awareness to deal with that. Game-design wise they're really not far off from today's stealth offerings. You can't kill people easily and there are less ways to do it, but aside from that... Prettied up, with some optional objective markers they'd be hard to identify as being 'from a different era'.

 

[Velvet Cyberpunk]

I lolled.

And nearly cried: Deus Ex just might be here to stay. Eat it Family Guy, this is the best resurrection from the dead.

A million times yes! But resurrecting Family Guy and Futurama tie for a close second.

 

[bengraven]

Speaking of stacking stuff, is it worth trying to get to the top of the "abandoned" gas station? I got on the dumpster but have been having issues trying to jump on top of the station and I'm wondering if it's even worth trying. If there's so much as a credit chip over there, I will try again though.

I'm hoping for an access point so I can climb inside and steal some of the guy's merchandise when his back is turned.

I did the barrel thing, too. I'm wondering if you could just "dunk" with the jump augment.

I have the fall augment, so I can imagine that on my downward arc the "falling superman" cutscene would appear and I would be on the ground.

A million times yes! But resurrecting Family Guy and Futurama tie for a close second.

Damn, I forgot about Futurama. And I suppose Doctor Who counts as well, but there was no way Who was gone forever.

But in the gaming world there has never been a resurrection like this.

 

[Rufus]

Speaking of stacking stuff, is it worth trying to get to the top of the "abandoned" gas station? I got on the dumpster but have been having issues trying to jump on top of the station and I'm wondering if it's even worth trying. If there's so much as a credit chip over there, I will try again though.

Yeah, but what you find makes little sense unless it's your second visit to Detroit.

 

[Mindlog]

Yeah, but what you find makes little sense unless it's your second visit to Detroit.

Yeah, it really seems like part of a quest line that got dropped.

If you have Icarus there is another path to the roof. The early sales report sounds great.

 

[Zeliard]

I don't think it's really fair to just brush off all those people as "whiners". There's a lot of aspects about Deus Ex that quite frankly are old and don't really stand up that well. In some of those cases they didn't quite measure up the day that game was released, and we've certainly come a long way since 2000. Asking players to accept those elements and look past them was a lot easier then than it is today, even if only for how new and brave the entire package of the game was. I'm not sure it's reasonable to still ask players to do that more than a decade later when that justification isn't relevant anymore. Definitely not to the point that I'd consider it a failing of the player if they decided against it - even if I thought they'd be missing out on something if they could.

I think it's fair to call people whiners when they complain about things that constitute a lack of hand-holding, yes, and particularly when those people are a large part of the reason we get the many dumb games that people lament. Things like hit-detection, overall janky combat, etc, those are valid reasons. In fact, those were faults with Deus Ex on the day of its release, especially when you had hyper-responsive games like Quake at the time.

But plenty of other things can be easily pointed to as faults of the player for simply not being accustomed to games that don't tell you "go here now, do this now, etc." In that other thread someone was trying to actually argue that Deus Ex should have had various dialogue prompts at certain points to remind the player to heal. I mean, really. There are plenty of legit criticisms about Deus Ex and I share many myself, but many honestly boil down to "please hold my hand, I'm scared and don't know what to do."

The only thing that I can see is navigation, finding your way around, but anyone should have enough spacial awareness to deal with that.

This is just naive. We're inundated in games with various markers telling players exactly where to go and what to do, with developers looking at idiot testers who can't find their way out of a square room. Even DX:HR now has a detailed map, a radar, AND an objective locator, and all three of them include your destination. Compare that to what Deus Ex did with the map and concessions to modern gaming should be obvious.

 

[subversus]

Well, since people didn't understand "japanese influence" commentary I'll try to explain it.

It's not about art style or presentation. It's about gameplay.

DX:HR has a number of extremely polished gameplay mechanics. No half-ass elements here. Combat is solid, stealth is solid, hacking is solid, all augs are useful. But it's also pretty predictable. You have a number of ways to progress through level. There are many of them, you can combine them and and you have some freedom given the equipment you carry but that's about it. It's balanced, thought out but it's also predictable. All japanese games I played (not many, but enough to feel the nature of design) were built that way. They had simple but very deep and polished mechanics. You could master them but you could improvise only inside these strict rules.

The original Deus Ex had more systems that were not that balanced and thought out but that could lead to some really crazy shit happening like fighting a guard who fires rockets at you while you are trying to crawl away because your legs were shot off when you tried to hack the security panel on the wall and invisibility aug sucked the batteries dry. and you manage to survive because the guard steps into line of sight of the robot you previously hacked and they start fighting. you manage to crawl aroud the corner but the guard destroys the robot and follows you... to reach the LAM you've managed to set. And that's pretty much sane episode because there were many more crazier moments I just don't remember in details. You could reach pretty impossible places in not intended by the game designer ways, you could almost break the game but do it without resorting to cheat codes. Also areas were much more wide open.

The second influence is stealth. It has very MGS feel and it doesn't try to hide it.

so that's what I meant by japanese influences.

 

[Barack Lesnar]

To those just starting or about to start, here are some tips/suggestions about the augs from my experience in the game:

.high jump, lift heavy objects, Icarus landing, break walls, are all must haves and are worth getting early. High jump is probably the best one in the game and the one I used the most
.social aug helps quite a bit too
.the only hacking points you really need are to get it to lvl 5. I didn't use the %stealth tree at all and had 30+ each of stop worm and nuke virus at end game, but you have to explore a lot and hack everything and get the data stores. Think I had one extra point in Fortify, as well.
.both the electricity and gas immunity augs are actually useful end game. No need to get them early or mid, but late game they're really helpful in certain areas.
.inventory space augs are definitely worth it if you intend on trying the different weaps and explosives... I had it maxed by mid game

There's more but I am tired

 

[derFeef]

Just started today. Atmosphere is amazing, love it, but the facial animations are baaad, especially with the german dub (which is really good surprisingly). Started on deus ex of course, game is not hard yet, but we will see. I killed one guard sadly because I pressed the button too long, but I will not replay that section.. I am facing all my consequences, even if it's an achievement

 

[Bisnic]

I just saw a poster for Final Fantasy XXVII. Didn't expect it. :lol

 

[subversus]

I just saw a poster for Final Fantasy XXVII. Didn't expect it. :lol

take a look at the ads of LIMB clinic.

 

[LuchaShaq]

Anyone have any freezing issues? Just froze so hard three times in a row I had to unplug the 360 to get it to turn off. All in the same door in an end game area (I assume).

GRRR!

 

[epmode]

Man, I wish there was a way to track if you've already killed someone. I finally finished the game. Got that Foxiest of Hounds achievement but not Pacifist. And this is AFTER I went through all the trouble of moving bodies away from bots before they explode, checking all bodies for life signs, etc. Must've missed one.

 

[Solo]

Aug balance is by far the #1 issue with the game and it needs to be addressed for DX4.

 

[Zeliard]

Also some people say the speed boost is useless but it came quite in handy during the 2nd boss fight for me, just upgraded to the first level. I had (and still have) no armor or defensive upgrades at all and I'm on Deus Ex difficulty so all her attacks were basically one-hit kill.

I actually thought that boss fight was pretty cool, much more than the first, at least. Since she uses

Spoiler

cloak extensively and stalks you

, and there are lulls in the action, it wasn't mechanically silly like the first fight and I thought much more fitting in context to the rest of the game.

Aug balance is by far the #1 issue with the game and it needs to be addressed for DX4.

It was the original Deus Ex' biggest fault as well. Maybe they should make aug imbalance a Deus Ex staple, like the aloof protagonist.

 

[Enco]

Please give me a mod that regens more than 1 bar of energy!

By FAR the worst thing about the game.

 

[Grisby]

Anyone have any freezing issues? Just froze so hard three times in a row I had to unplug the 360 to get it to turn off. All in the same door in an end game area (I assume).

GRRR!

Never had one freeze on 360. Which area?

 

[Wallach]

I think it's fair to call people whiners when they complain about things that constitute a lack of hand-holding, yes, and particularly when those people are a large part of the reason we get the many dumb games that people lament. Things like hit-detection, overall janky combat, etc, those are valid reasons. In fact, those were faults with Deus Ex on the day of its release, especially when you had hyper-responsive games like Quake at the time.

But plenty of other things can be easily pointed to as faults of the player for simply not being accustomed to games that don't tell you "go here now, do this now, etc." In that other thread someone was trying to actually argue that Deus Ex should have had various dialogue prompts at certain points to remind the player to heal. I mean, really. There are plenty of legit criticisms about Deus Ex and I share many myself, but many honestly boil down to "please hold my hand, I'm scared and don't know what to do."

Some complaints are dumb, but some aren't. All I'm saying is I think it's not that unreasonable for people to not be inclined to go back and play a game that's 11 years old, even if certain elements still hold up really well. Some of them really don't, and the farther we move along the less acceptable those kind of concessions are going to be for some people.

I just think people get a little too dismissive or defensive when talking about older games that endear themselves as classics. That thread you're talking about was pretty stupid, but not all of the stupidity was coming from one side of the aisle.

 

[Darklord]

Please give me a mod that regens more than 1 bar of energy!

By FAR the worst thing about the game.

This x 1000. It makes shit like cloak damn near worthless.

 

[EatChildren]

It was the original Deus Ex' biggest fault as well. Maybe they should make aug imbalance a Deus Ex staple, like the aloof protagonist.

I kind of think they're going in the right direction. Many of the new augs and the praxis system really need to stay, they just need to ditch the useless ones and replace them with abilities that tie into other augs, and expand the level design a bit to allow for a wider variety of builds (aka: dont making hacking essential).

Otherwise yeah, Deus Ex was broken on the aug front as well. It cant be easy, but if they're not totally overhauling the system they should be able to polish it further in a sequel.

 

[Solo]

They just need to have less Praxis points available. There isn't a single hard decision to be made in the game. Not a single one, because there is enough XP and Praxis kits to get like 90% of the augs.

 

[subversus]

Also I wanted to add that this game feels a bit more like Bloodlines that Deus Ex in a way it's structured and quests are built. It offers more options though in some areas.

So far immersive sims (excluding Shock series since you don't do talking + earn exp there) rank like this for me:

DX1 - offers more freedom than Bloodlines and DX:HR
Bloodlines - the best game from writing and atmosphere standpoint
DX:HR - better gameplay and the most fleshed out world among those.

 

[jim-jam bongs]

lol @ my time played... that's gotta be a record?

Spoiler

I've finished it 3 times already though

 

[Wallach]

They just need to have less Praxis points available. There isn't a single hard decision to be made in the game. Not a single one, because there is enough XP and Praxis kits to get like 90% of the augs.

They really do, but I feel like this is a side effect of the XP system being really imbalanced. Take XP from hacking altogether and I wonder how many less Praxis I would have earned by the end of the game.

 

[ColonelColon]

They really do, but I feel like this is a side effect of the XP system being really imbalanced. Take XP from hacking altogether and I wonder how many less Praxis I would have earned by the end of the game.

The insane amount of XP you get from hacking doesn't make any sense. It makes codes and passwords completely pointless.

 

[jim-jam bongs]

They really do, but I feel like this is a side effect of the XP system being really imbalanced. Take XP from hacking altogether and I wonder how many less Praxis I would have earned by the end of the game.

I think they should add rather than subtract. I liked your idea earlier about giving XP for entering found codes, for example, and maybe for demolishing a door rather than bypassing it. Then double the amount of XP between Praxis and Bob's your father's brother.

 

[epmode]

I feel like they should remove XP gains from hacking as well as dropping guards. Differentiating between lethal and non-lethal takedowns is equally silly. Don't guide people into one playstyle. Give XP for completing objectives, both obvious and hidden. Exploration bonuses are nice too.

Basically, the first game had it right.

 

[EatChildren]

They really do, but I feel like this is a side effect of the XP system being really imbalanced. Take XP from hacking altogether and I wonder how many less Praxis I would have earned by the end of the game.

This too, very much so. XP / Praxis distribution is definitely needs a tweaking more than nearly anything else.

Non-lethal stealth hacker rewards the most XP by far.

 

[panda21]

omg i just got to the

Spoiler

first boss fight, wtf were they thinking? can i cheese it somehow? i just want to see the rest of the game but i've gone all stealth/non lethal up to here and can't get past it

 

[subversus]

this comes from my twitter and I don't know if it is for PS3 only but according to PlayStationRU DX:HR sold 600 000 copies in its first week.

edit: some people in replies say that it's without Steam sales

 

[Jeramii]

haha, look what i had happen. (no spoilers)

 

[Wallach]

I think they should add rather than subtract. I liked your idea earlier about giving XP for entering found codes, for example, and maybe for demolishing a door rather than bypassing it. Then double the amount of XP between Praxis and Bob's your father's brother.

That works too, though really what matters is getting the amount of Praxis earned way down while equalizing the amount of Praxis earned from the different styles of play. The discrepancy right now is ridiculous; I can take two different routes that I'd think would be equally valid and end up with an enormous XP difference, 15-20 Praxis points worth. That's simply too much.

 

[subversus]

omg i just got to the

Spoiler

first boss fight, wtf were they thinking? can i cheese it somehow? i just want to see the rest of the game but i've gone all stealth/non lethal up to here and can't get past it

what equipment do you have?

 

[Wallach]

omg i just got to the

Spoiler

first boss fight, wtf were they thinking? can i cheese it somehow? i just want to see the rest of the game but i've gone all stealth/non lethal up to here and can't get past it

Spoiler

Look in one of the rooms on the side, there are weapons and ammo there. Most notably a Stun Gun, which will incapacitate him. Stun him and hit him with an explosive barrel sitting around in the room and repeat. You can also daze him by throwing the yellow gas canisters around the room as well.

 

[panda21]

what equipment do you have?

tranq gun, 10mm, sub machine gun, combat rifle and ammo. no grenades or anything. i can shoot him but its too hard to move around and shoot him in that small space and stay alive.

Spoiler

Look in one of the rooms on the side, there are weapons and ammo there. Most notably a Stun Gun, which will incapacitate him. Stun him and hit him with an explosive barrel sitting around in the room and repeat. You can also daze him by throwing the yellow gas canisters around the room as well.

oh I didnt notice that, the stun gun might help.

 

[Alucrid]

Question: Does hacking turrets / robots and making them target enemies count as you killing them for that one achievement?

 

[Grisby]

I just saw a poster for Final Fantasy XXVII. Didn't expect it. :lol

As a big FF fan its one of my favorite pieces of art in the game. Screams of way more class then most FF character designs.

 

[Turfster]

Question: Does hacking turrets / robots and making them target enemies count as you killing them for that one achievement?

Yes. Basically, pretty much every dead person counts against you, no matter how they died. (unless it was scripted of course)