Developers: How important is the PS3 / Xbox 2 storage medium?

J

john tv

Member
OK, so Sony has confirmed that PS3 is going to be using Blu-Ray discs as its storage medium. Let's just say MS decides to stick with DVD for Xbox 2, rather than support Sony's new format. From my viewpoint, it seems to me like a DVD has more than enough space to handle most modern games for the foreseeable future. But I also realize there's the PR disadvantage of Sony being able to tout about having a much larger, newer format.

But I'm not a developer; I don't know many of the little details that might not be readily apparent to the average consumer. So from a developer's standpoint, taking other technical factors into consideration that I may not be aware of, do you think a DVD drive on next-gen hardware is a bad idea? What are the pros and cons of the potential formats for next-gen systems?

PS -- No trolling in this thread. I'm trying to get some intelligent, useful discussion going here -- I will take extra care to ban anyone who tries to derail this or troll without good reason. :p
 
I think it should be clarified that Blu-Ray is NOT a "Sony format".

Infact I think Blu-Ray will support one of Microsoft's video compression codecs as part of its spec.

Blu-Ray is a format backed by a consortium of companies including Matsushita/Panasonic, Sony, Samsung, JVC, etc. just like DVD is.
 
I am not a developer, but...

From a developer's perspective, DVDs seem more or less large enough to hold anything you throw at them. More importantly, at this point they're cheap to manufacture, and 2-3 DVD games would add very little to overall manufacturing cost.

From a consumer perspective, having one next gen console on The New Big Thing and the other on DVD is a bad thing - for whoever's not riding the future. Even if it doesn't impact games at all, people choosing between two consoles will look at the features and say, "well this one does X too." Any next-gen system on last-gen storage is going to need a $50-100 price point differential to stay competitive in consumer's eyes.

Finally, there's no telling how much space next-gen games will take up. Most PSX games fit on a single CD, but some took 3-4 discs. Almost all PS2 games manage to fit on a single single-layer DVD. A few have gone double-layer or double disc, but no threebies. Even though next gen consoles will need more space for larger textures, I don't see them increasing the size of geometry, game code, sound files too terribly much - the space required won't be as big as the jump from PS to PS2.

So ... from a development standpoint, not important. From a consumer appeal standpoint, very. That's my take.
 
soundwave05 said:
I think it should be clarified that Blu-Ray is NOT a "Sony format".

Infact I think Blu-Ray will support one of Microsoft's video compression codecs as part of its spec.

Blu-Ray is a format backed by a consortium of companies including Matsushita/Panasonic, Sony, Samsung, JVC, etc. just like DVD is.
Click to expand...
Sorry, point taken. I didn't mean to imply it was Sony's alone, but when you take it to a very general level, I see Blu-Ray as more of a Sony thing than an MS thing, for obvious reasons. But let's not dwell on this point too much, as it's not really important to the topic at hand. :)
 
I'n no developer either, but I really have to question whether or no it's too soon for a format change. DVD was around a couple of years or so before the PS2, so I think the system benefitted from having a somewhat established medium. That isn't going to be the same situation with Blu-Ray. Besides that, I honestly don't think we need that much space at the moment. PC developers have barely adopted DVDs--several years later they have been able to still manage with a CD or two. Portables about the only area where I think developers felt like they were being held back on space, and the new handhelds have pretty much turned that into a non issue.
 
Just as a consumer, if the PS3 is $300 for me personally that's a big deal with Blu-Ray.

Because initial Blu-Ray players are probably going to be $500-$1200 or thereabouts, I mean personally if I can buy a movie on Blu-Ray (even if I have to play it off my PS3) or regular ol' DVD, I'm getting the Blu-Ray version to take advantage of my HDTV resolution.

Now I know that won't be a mass consumer type of thing since most people these days are still happy with DVD, but for those of us who have HDTV or those who are planning to upgrade in the next 2-3 years, I think its a significant feature.

From a dev standpoint I don't think its a huge deal. No game requires that much space.
 
I'm with Jack, i suspect there will be a few games that need more than 9 gigs. However if Sony go Blu-ray it gives the devs the option of putting out a huge game and sony a bigger dick.

I mean if u'd have asked me in 1999 whether a game would ever need 9 gig i'd possibly have laughed given HDD were not really much larger than that but now 9 gig games exist.

So like hard drives, if the space is there people will find a way to use it, be it music, add-ons, textures, maps, directors commentary, the making of, art, etc etc.

I'm no dev, just a e-commerce masters that marvels at how we all now need 200gig hdds to survive.
 
shpankey said:
i thought the rumor was MS was going with HD-DVD and Sony with BRD (?)
Click to expand...

Leaked specs and some other rumblings have suggested that they might stay with DVD for the next round.
 
Another point to consider is the data transfert rate.

36Mbps for BR (1x don't quote me on the speed)

against

21.6Mbps for 16X simple DVD-rom (speculating a higher speed at the end of 2005)


Compare to CD vs DVD, the argument is less clear-cut than last gen
 
shpankey said:
i thought the rumor was MS was going with HD-DVD and Sony with BRD (?)
Click to expand...

The latest rumor state that NEC (one of the 2 big HD-DVD supporter with Toshiba) can't supply cheap enough HD-DVD drive to MS for the end of 2005.
 
sorry to spam i don't know if that was posted

Dozen claim MS codec patents

The MPEG LA has had 12 separate companies claiming that they have essential patents in the pool it is developing for the licensing of Microsoft’s video codec, dubbed VC 1 under the SMPTE standard (Society of Motion Picture and Television Engineers).

The fact that 12 separate companies, possibly more, will decide the fate of the technology has implications for if and how much Microsoft must charge for the codec.

....

Now these 11 can see that their intellectual property is being used, they can charge for it.

So if Microsoft wants to continue to give away its codec within WM10, it may find itself having to pay for each copy it distributes. The only way around this is either to set an upper limit on the license, as was done in MPEG 4 Level 10 AVC (H.264) or not take a license to the technology through MPEG LA, and negotiate each one separately.

Since Microsoft has never acknowledged any other technology suppliers in its literature on VC 9, it is unlikely that it is currently paying royalties on its current distribution. But it will need to. MPEG 2 for instance has a flat rate royalty of $2.50 on each copy, while MPEG 4/H.264 is free up to 100,000 units, then costs 20 cents per unit, falling to 10 cents a unit, capped at $3.5m per year, rising with inflation.

An MPEG 2 style license would not suit Microsoft, while an MPEG 4/H.264 license would be of minimal cost.

But that doesn’t mean that the other 11 companies will feel obliged to give Microsoft what it wants, and they are sure to be bristling at the thought that their Intellectual Property has been “given away” by Microsoft for years now without them realizing it.

Once the royalty terms are set, revenue is allocated 50 per cent where a unit is made and 50 per cent where a unit is sold, against the patents that each patent holder has in each territory. If other patent holders join the pool later, MPEG LA leaves the license at the same level and just shares the payments over greater number of licensees.

So not only could Microsoft find itself with only a small part of the license fees, but this could be further diluted if other companies join the patent pool later.

....
Click to expand...

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/01/24/ms_codec_patents/
 
Milhouse31 said:
The latest rumor state that NEC (one of the 2 big HD-DVD supporter with Toshiba) can't supply cheap enough HD-DVD drive to MS for the end of 2005.
Click to expand...
damn, that would suck. i would be tempted to just wait on PS3 then, especially if MS also opts out of a hard drive and backwards compatability (like it was rumored awhile back - or has that changed also?). anyhow, that would be a deal breaker for me. i want either HD-DVD or BRD for sure.
 
I think initially the fact that ms choose dvd over hddvd wont matter much, but maybe second generation or after ps3 is launched it might come back and bite them in the ass... ala N64 :lol
 
Blue-Ray is not yet a proven media like DVD was in 2000. So we'll have to wait and see if it won't turn in a new Betamax.

Personally, I bet that BR will be successfull and being so, yes, Sony would have a big advantage over Microsoft in terms of marketing and consumer perception.

In terms of development it's a plus to have more storage and faster transfer rates, but they're not essential.
 
isn't there a lot of talk about "a 10 year plan" these days? if not a real ten year plan, at least stretch out the life cycle a bit and by the same token take less of a dive on initial hardware...?

If they do pla to stretch the hardware more to get more return per R&D dollar, then it'd make sense to beleive that the platform with the biggest storage medium would be at an advantage 5-6 years from now.
 
Not developer myself (sorry John), but from my experience and talks, I feel it´s not that DVD it´s uncapable to store next generation games, but developers/producers wanting to use the next toy they have avaliable for a new system. Maybe including film/game in the same disc or whatever use they think to put it as a "selling point" that they can highlight.
 
Are blue-ray players even going to be backward compatible to DVD? If not, I can't say I'm excited about a format change.
 
Next gen is going to be much more focused on HDTV. Higher resolution leads to high resolution textures which get big in size very fast.

Given that this generation is going to last until 2010, I highly doubt 9 gigs will be enough.
 
SKluck said:
Next gen is going to be much more focused on HDTV. Higher resolution leads to high resolution textures which get big in size very fast.

Given that this generation is going to last until 2010, I highly doubt 9 gigs will be enough.
Click to expand...

Exactly. 2 or 4 DVDs may be ok for developers, but the would suck for the consumers (switching disks? No thanks). And it's not just game data and textures, but also HD vids and HQ multichannel surround sound that have to fit in there.
 
Look at GameCube. Would developers have liked a bigger disc? Of course. In the end though most games made it to the GameCube intact. It'll be the same next gen. There may be a few titles that need the extra space that HD-DVD or BRD offer but it won't be that many I suspect.
 
TTP said:
also HD vids and HQ multichannel surround sound that have to fit in there.
Click to expand...
Surround doesn't make a difference. As for video I would think most cutscenes will be realtime next-gen. I can imagine video being used for for textures increasingly but that kind of content is expensive to make or license so only a few titles will use so much video that you'll need to extra space.
 
To support the HDTV resolution of FMV, higher quality sound, higher resolution textures and what not, Blue-ray having larger storage space definatelly helps a lot. Having DVD for next generationis kind of like GC - sure 1.5g is enough for most games but many games have to fight hard to squeeze down to that size especially for crossplatform games The other adventage of course is the transfer rate as mentioned.
 
I hate this argument, no it's not enough.

FMVs will be in 1080i, that will take tons of space. Also, more textures, higher res, possibility of both DD5.1 and DTS tracks etc.. they will easily go over 4.7 gigs.
 
There are already PS2/Xbox-games that are close to the 8.5GB barrier, I would imagine that the size of the games would at least double by next gen, maybe not at first, but eventually.

It'd be a real problem if MS went with DVD9 instead of say HD-DVD. There would definitely be ways around it, but it wouldn't be a positive, to say the least.

HD-DVD would probably provide enough space for it not to be that much of an issue, though.
 
Interesting points so far. Can anyone detail the main pros and cons of HD-DVD and Blu-Ray? And what exactly are the differences between the two?
 
New compression techniques made possible by the power of the next-gen systems will help ease the burden of higher resolutions and more content in general. In the end no system is perfect so developers will just have to adapt.
 
Quick and Dirty summary

HDDVD is backwards compatible. Cheaper to manufacture (can use existing DVD presses)

Blu-Ray has more capacity.


Of course engineers on both sides are running around trying to minimise the deficiences of each system and both consortiums are trying to lock down support for their format.


http://www.somacon.com/blog/page16.php
 
BluRay - More space 54gbs, more expensive to produce. Comparatively better technology.
HDDVD - Less space 14gbs (methinks), cheaper to produce because it is based off older DVD tech.

This is one of the questions that was asked of alot of devs at TGS. Most brought up a very good point. During the last cycle change, when only a few games were on multiple cds, everyone kept asking "what will you do will all the space on a dvd". Filling a DVD hasnt been a problem this gen, and I am sure filling a BRD or an HDDVD next gen wont be a problem either.
 
I don't think using DVD is a problem in the forseeable future, it has 8Gig of memory, there is no way in hell you could use it all up unless some game developer decided to put 100 mins of totally uncompressed video in it.
 
Dammit, how many times do I have to say it. DVDs won't cut it. Several games are filling up Dual layer DVDs now. They're filling it up with 640x480 video, Pro Logic 2 audio, weak ass low rez textures, low polygon models.

Roll forward to the next generation with video at three times the resolution, standard high quality 5.1+ audio, high res textures, and games that push nearly a billion polygons per second. Where is all that information going to come from? Sure it could fit on DVDs...just expect shit quality video and audio with high compression. Kinda defeats the purpose of HDTV and next gen consoles...
 
john tv said:
Interesting points so far. Can anyone detail the main pros and cons of HD-DVD and Blu-Ray? And what exactly are the differences between the two?
Click to expand...

Just as an aside, since cutscenes will be in HD resolutions, we'll run out of storage sooner than you think.

HD-DVD vs Blu-Ray

1) Blu-Ray is the forward-thinking technology because it has a much larger storage capacity. All this talk about efficient vs. inefficient compression is moot, because Blu-Ray will do MPEG-2 as well as Microsoft's WM9, etc (older articles may list a negative of Blu-Ray as being MPEG-2 only).

The disadvantage is cost. Making the discs also requires completely new equipment.

2) HD-DVD is practical-thinking technology because it's built around regular DVD technology. It does carry more space than a DVD, but not as much as Blu-Ray. However, since discs are manufactured similarly to DVDs, it'll be much cheaper to make movies. It's only 15GB per side though.

Both take reasonable approaches. The Blu-Ray team is taking the console approach in which they'll try to sell super-technology at basement prices in the belief that the long-term royalities will work out. HD-DVD is only an incremental upgrade from DVD, but will be easier to pull off.

I'm willing to bet that it'll be a DVD-RW/DVD+RW type of world where universal players will quickly come out and average people won't even know that there's a difference.
 
monkeyrun said:
I don't think using DVD is a problem in the forseeable future, it has 8Gig of memory, there is no way in hell you could use it all up unless some game developer decided to put 100 mins of totally uncompressed video in it.
Click to expand...

What he said. And don't forget that FMVs have to there twice for PAL regions, in 50Hz and in 60Hz. Square's excuse for PAL bars in FFX and FFX-2 was that there was not enough space on the DVD (they didn`t want to use DVD9 because of the costs).
 
monkeyrun said:
I don't think using DVD is a problem in the forseeable future, it has 8Gig of memory, there is no way in hell you could use it all up unless some game developer decided to put 100 mins of totally uncompressed video in it.
Click to expand...

Come on! Your DVD movie is 120 minutes of highly compressed MPEG-2 video in 8GB. You'd get less than one minute of uncompressed HD video!

There's a need for more space. Whether it's HD-DVD's 15GB is "enough" remains to be seen.
 
Even on Xbox DVDs get filled up, because of all the encryption stuff MS uses, developers dont get anywhere near the full 8gig.
 
Azih:

> HDDVD is backwards compatible.

No. You still need a red laser for DVD.



tetsuoxb:

> BluRay - More space 54gbs, more expensive to produce. Comparatively better technology.

A single layer, single sided BD-ROM is 25 GB. Still, more than HD-DVD (15 GB) though.



teh_pwn:

> Several games are filling up Dual layer DVDs now.

Because the devs are lazy.

> They're filling it up with 640x480 video

Using old codecs.

> Pro Logic 2 audio

How is that relevant?

> weak ass low rez textures, low polygon models.

This is where improved compression and procedural content comes in.


Certainly there will be games that'll need more space than a DVD9 offers but for most games I reckon it'll be fine.
 
GXAlan said:
You'd get less than one minute of uncompressed HD video!
Click to expand...
With WMV9 you can fit an entire movie in 1080p on DVD9 in reasonable quality. But why would you want to put that much video in your average game?
 
> Several games are filling up Dual layer DVDs now.

Because the devs are lazy.
Click to expand...

So developers should expend more resources on compressing games when a more viable media is available?



> They're filling it up with 640x480 video

Using old codecs.
Click to expand...

What the hell....old codecs? Look the next gen consoles make HDTV standard. That means games need video in 1920x1024. Sure you can compress this, but that means degrading the video quality. Compression that high would be disgusting at that resolution. And guess what has the decompress that stuff? The processor does, so game performance takes a hit too. Why the hell would console makers be spending so lavishly on hardware, and then use DVDs the cripple it? That makes no sense at all.

> Pro Logic 2 audio

How is that relevant?
Click to expand...

Are you telling me that 6.1 DTS is going to take as much space pro logic 2 audio? Please explain.

> weak ass low rez textures, low polygon models.

This is where improved compression and procedural content comes in.
Click to expand...

Great, I'm glad Nintendo will be glad to hear that their low memory formats taht force developers to compress like hell will finally work next generation. They'll be ecstatic.
 
teh_pwn said:
Dammit, how many times do I have to say it. DVDs won't cut it. Several games are filling up Dual layer DVDs now. They're filling it up with 640x480 video, Pro Logic 2 audio, weak ass low rez textures, low polygon models.

Roll forward to the next generation with video at three times the resolution, standard high quality 5.1+ audio, high res textures, and games that push nearly a billion polygons per second. Where is all that information going to come from? Sure it could fit on DVDs...just expect shit quality video and audio with high compression. Kinda defeats the purpose of HDTV and next gen consoles...
Click to expand...


I think you have made the best point so far. Next gen with gaming supporting HD we are going to need much more space than ever before.

From a practical standpoint, I think Blu Ray makes the most sense. It gives developers the most flexibility. Since it'll work with DVD if developers want they can use a DVD5 or DVD9 disc. If they need extra space they can use a Blu Ray disc.
 
GXAlan said:
Come on! Your DVD movie is 120 minutes of highly compressed MPEG-2 video in 8GB. You'd get less than one minute of uncompressed HD video!

There's a need for more space. Whether it's HD-DVD's 15GB is "enough" remains to be seen.
Click to expand...

Or the developers could just harness the power of these next-gen beasts and do the cut- scenes with in-game engines. It seems to me the concept has outlived it's usefullness. Why create this jarring effect when in-game will be beautiful if you have any kind of engine what- so-ever? This alone would greatly reduce the needs on storage and even with high resolution textures, would probably make DL DVDs enough. Plus it would eliminate a huge money-sucker.
 
In the perfect world, we'd get mini discs with the capacity of Blue Ray... ^_^

Ah well, I don't think storage will be super-mega-ultra important in the sales of a system, but it should matter somewhat.
 
I don't think using DVD is a problem in the forseeable future, it has 8Gig of memory, there is no way in hell you could use it all up unless some game developer decided to put 100 mins of totally uncompressed video in it.
Click to expand...

What he said. And don't forget that FMVs have to there twice for PAL regions, in 50Hz and in 60Hz. Square's excuse for PAL bars in FFX and FFX-2 was that there was not enough space on the DVD (they didn`t want to use DVD9 because of the costs).
Click to expand...

You would be lucky to get around 9mins of uncompressed 480p video on a DVD9. You are underestimating how much space video takes.

And as for Square, they were just screwing us PAL games over yet again and making excuses for being the lazy shitty fuckwits they are. I believe Fatal Frame for example had a 60hz option but would return to 50hz for prerendered movies and then switch back to 60hz for gameplay.

If you ask me, what with the texture size increases, better sound quality and high res, good quality movie files (personally I see alot of terribly encoded videos on PS2 and Xbox even with their 5-9 GB of space) they will hit the full 9GB of DVDs very quicky this gen. Add to that the general apathy to the Gamecubes GOD capacity THIS gen, any additional space will be a god send and very much appreciated by developers, less so publishers.
 
teh_pwn:

> So developers should expend more resources on compressing games when a more
> viable media is available?

Like I said, no system is perfect. If it's not the media it's something else. Developers are used to this.

> What the hell....old codecs?

MPEG2 is old. And Bink is just supposed to be crap.

> That means games need video in 1920x1024.

1080p is 1920x1080. Even so 1080p is not guaranteed to become standard. Xbox developers seem to think 720p will be the norm... on Xbox 2 at least.

Also, I don't see the need for massive amounts of video in general.

> Sure you can compress this, but that means degrading the video quality.

Development is all about making tradeoffs.

> Compression that high would be disgusting at that resolution.

http://www.wmvhd.com

> And guess what has the decompress that stuff? The processor does, so game
> performance takes a hit too.

So with the money saved on the disc drive M$ throws in a more powerful processor. Tradeoffs.

> Why the hell would console makers be spending so lavishly on hardware, and then use
> DVDs the cripple it?

Because a DVD doesn't cripple anything. It just provides another set of challenges.

> Are you telling me that 6.1 DTS is going to take as much space pro logic 2 audio?
> Please explain.

The encoding is done in realtime. A sample is the same size whether its outputted in stereo or surround.
 
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