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Devil May Cry 4 Special Edition |OT| Two girls, one motivated Vergil

Sesha

Member
Personally, I suspect that's exactly why it's purchasable. Maybe that's more effective in Japan or something, but it definitely doesn't carry overseas. MGR made the same mistake with offensive defense by making it an extremely cheap purchasable move when it's basically mandatory to play the game properly. So many new players struggled unnecessarily because they didn't know the move existed.

It's definitely not working. Doing a tutorial for it would be more useful. DMC needs better tutorials in general. DMC4s tutorial just throws everything at the player in one go and expects them to remember everything. I bet you most players forget about the dodge input and the i-frames on jumping right away.

http://thisgengaming.com/2016/05/31...com-vancouver-may-or-may-not-be-an-exclusive/

Another piss poor article to take with a grain of salt, however, I guess a Devil May Cry reveal at E3 is really starting to look alot less and less.

The GAF post in question, for those wondering what their source for the article was.

I don't know who ekim is, but I feel pretty confident that DR4 will be at Microsoft's press conference.
 

Dahbomb

Member
I've been watching some Let's Players play DMC4SE, even ones familiar with the series and who have played DMC4 before, and I've noticed that they tend to skip buying Enemy Step. We've discussed this before, but Enemy Step absolutely has to be a default action in DMC5. Because as it is, a lot of people are completely unaware of it or otherwise ignore it. Although having it be purchasable might function as a way to make players aware of it, it seems to be working against the feature. Having an in-game tutorial that explains Enemy Step and Jump Canceling would be way more prudent.
I don't buy Enemy Step either early on.

Early on you need other moves first like the Stinger equivalents, faster movement speed and double jumps.

Also they made Enemy Step really expensive and you can get some value skill moves before that.
 

Sesha

Member
I don't buy Enemy Step either early on.

Early on you need other moves first like the Stinger equivalents, faster movement speed and double jumps.

Also they made Enemy Step really expensive and you can get some value skill moves before that.

It's not just early on. I see people in the late game buying stuff like Showdown over it.
 

Dahbomb

Member
It's not just early on. I see people in the late game buying stuff like Showdown over it.
Yeah in the late game it's just as bad because at that point the price is insanely high and Souls are harder to come by so you just get what is available to you at the time.

Showdown is bad though, that's something you get way at the end.

I mean no doubt DMC4 has some questionable design choices. The whole Proud Soul system was pretty lame, they improved that a lot in DmC where every move had the same price (one Soul point) and it was easy to respec. You can respec in DMC4 too but with moves having different costs it's not like you can refund Showdown and get Enemy Step instead.
 

Sesha

Member
Yeah in the late game it's just as bad because at that point the price is insanely high and Souls are harder to come by so you just get what is available to you at the time.

Showdown is bad though, that's something you get way at the end.

I mean no doubt DMC4 has some questionable design choices. The whole Proud Soul system was pretty lame, they improved that a lot in DmC where every move had the same price (one Soul point) and it was easy to respec. You can respec in DMC4 too but with moves having different costs it's not like you can refund Showdown and get Enemy Step instead.

The price inflation is also a good point. The one benefit of certain abilities having higher prices from a design/balance perspective is that they effectively gate away those abilities until later on.

Whether or not they choose DMC4's or DmC's system, I'm fine with either, but they should definitely make Enemy Step a standard ability.
 

Kaleinc

Banned
I've been watching some Let's Players play DMC4SE, even ones familiar with the series and who have played DMC4 before, and I've noticed that they tend to skip buying Enemy Step. We've discussed this before, but Enemy Step absolutely has to be a default action in DMC5. Because as it is, a lot of people are completely unaware of it or otherwise ignore it. Although having it be purchasable might function as a way to make players aware of it, it seems to be working against the feature. Having an in-game tutorial that explains Enemy Step and Jump Canceling would be way more prudent.
They're playing Human or Devil Hunter modes? There is no point for players to use different/advanced moves if they can manage just fine with buster, autocombo etc, besides enemies die very quickly. Just like for cover based shooters if hp regen is too high no one's going to use cover if you can do great without it.
Getting destroyed on SoS, DMD is usually what incentivizes to research options.
 

RazMaTaz

Banned
E3 Floor Plan
southhallacj1g.png
 

Sesha

Member
Apparently Lucifer has four unused animations. Two on the ground and then aerial versions of the same animations.

pl006_05_052 >> arms spread sideways (unused animation btw)
pl006_05_053 >> spins aruond then touches chin (unused animation?)
pl006_05_055 >> aerial arm spred (another unused animation)
pl006_05_056 >> aerial spin around then touch chin( unused)

Source is this topic on infernalworks.

They're playing Human or Devil Hunter modes? There is no point for players to use different/advanced moves if they can manage just fine with buster, autocombo etc, besides enemies die very quickly. Just like for cover based shooters if hp regen is too high no one's going to use cover if you can do great without it.
Getting destroyed on SoS, DMD is usually what incentivizes to research options.

Only seen from Devil Hunter so far. The thing is though that jump cancelling blows the lid off of what you can do in combat. With DmC they marketed the feature heavily in videos and streams, and they tried to make it easier to execute so that people would use it more often. I agree with you that playing on higher difficulties incentivizes players to experiment, but Enemy Step is so essential to getting the most out of the combat that it's a failure on the game's part if players aren't even aware of its function and usefulness or just ignore it completely. I've seen so many "I didn't know you could do that" for not even very advanced aspects of DMC4 that it's clear the game fails to advertise or even hint at some of its features.

E3 Floor Plan
southhallacj1g.png

That Capcom section is big. It's only smaller than the biggest publishers. I guess we can be pretty sure that both RE7 and DR4 will be there, along with SF5. As for DMC5, even if they have a teaser for it, I doubt it will be playable.
 

Dahbomb

Member
And even in DmC Enemy Step is something you have to purchase.

That Capcom space is definitely very big. They better have something to show there otherwise that's a lot of space for nothing.
 

Sesha

Member
And even in DmC Enemy Step is something you have to purchase.

That Capcom space is definitely very big. They better have something to show there otherwise that's a lot of space for nothing.

Yeah, that was pretty stupid. Was there a tutorial for it in-game? I don't think there was, but I can't remember.
 
Another E3 without something about DMC5 is going to be heart breaking. DR getting 2 sequels within the same generation before DMC5 is sad...
 
TLG, Shenmue 3 and FFVII Remake all got announced before DMC5. And if DMC5 misses this year's big events then it means that FF freaking XV will be released before we even get a confirmation on DMC5.

Just let that sink in for a while.
 

Dahbomb

Member
Yeah, that was pretty stupid. Was there a tutorial for it in-game? I don't think there was, but I can't remember.
There might have been an in game loading screen tip for it but I don't remember. I think the game actually records how many times you used enemy step in the stat screen lol.

I know there's a loading screen combo that uses a lot of enemy steps in it but that usually starts appearing when you buy the move.


And yeah two current gen DS games announced before a DMC would be stupid as hell.
 

RazMaTaz

Banned
TLG, Shenmue 3 and FFVII Remake all got announced before DMC5. And if DMC5 misses this year's big events then it means that FF freaking XV will be released before we even get a confirmation on DMC5.

Just let that sink in for a while.

Keanu-Reeves-Whoa-04.jpg



On a serious note. Seems as though Capcoms main focus this year is getting their "zombie" franchises fleshed out. With rumours of RE7 reveal along with DR4, and with the rereleases of RE4->RE6, it really does feel we wont hear anything with relation for DMC5 for a while.
 
Pretty sure he doesn't know anything. He's just speculating like we are. That's why he doubled back and said he changed his mind. The assertive tone in his first post is misleading.
Someone should ask him if he knows shit, because I'm pretty sure pretending to have some insider knowledge is bannable. There shall be no false prophets about DMC5 for E3.
 

DMC5 confirmed to be at E3 with Itsunos team work on it but Itsuno won't be directly involved. Coming to Xbox One, PS4 and PC. Will star Dante as main lead. Will also have a trailer and playable demo section of some street area with the intro to a boss. No story really put out yet, just that Dante is the main character.
 
I just asked him whether he has insider knowledge or not.

I still remember last year when someone falsely (jokingly?) confirmed DMC5. We certainly don't need another one of those.
 
Every so often I remember that movie that was supposed to be based around DmC that was announced back in early 2011. Guess it's safe to say that's cancelled after five years of no news and DmC having no sequel after three and a half? Personally I'd love a CG movie like Degeneration/Damnation or Advent Children, but I supposed Devil May Cry isn't big enough for something like that.



I just asked him whether he has insider knowledge or not.

I still remember last year when someone falsely (jokingly?) confirmed DMC5. We certainly don't need another one of those.

Verendus got that train going last year. Then poor ViewtifulJC nearly got himself banned because of something someone else hinted at.

If rumors are true and Devil May Cry 5 finally got going late last year, the most we'll get is a CG trailer this TGS. No way they have a presentable demo by E3 and they probably don't want another DmC situation where it took another two and a half years after announcement to come out. This is make or break for the franchise, so they'll probably approach its announcement with caution.
 
Yeah, it was ViewtifulJC. Though, I'm not completely sure about the Verendus bit to be honest.

Wasn't that two years ago and not last year? He made a big list of titles with JRPG 1 and 2 and so on from Sony and all that, saying that only two of the titles aren't real, or something along those lines?
 

GuardianE

Santa May Claus
Yeah, it was ViewtifulJC. Though, I'm not completely sure about the Verendus bit to be honest.

Wasn't that two years ago and not last year? He made a big list of titles with JRPG 1 and 2 and so on from Sony and all that, saying that only two of the titles aren't real, or something along those lines?

It was more than that. Verendus was in a DMC thread and made specific posts about future titles. He even backtracked and edited some posts because they were too obvious. Anyway, plans change over time. We need to keep level headed and not assume too many things.


It seems like he knows something but doesn't want the risk of a ban if his info is wrong.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=205531975&postcount=162

It could be. Or it could just be "Well informed" speculation. It's hard to say. I don't know sneakers' post history or if he's ever been a confirmed source in the past.

But people think they have insider information all the time. I'd rather not jump to conclusions.
 
Verendus has been right often enough to give him some credence. Doesn't mean everything he says will happen since as GuardianE says, plans change (See Konami), but he clearly has some source of information with how often he has been correct. That has taken time to build up though, so for most "GAF insiders" I take their info with the biggest grain of salt I can. Nothing has been said that we ourselves haven't been saying (Capcom has further plans for Devil May Cry due to their internal reports that were published, rumors were going around a few months ago about DMC 5 being in production, Capcom Vancouver has been silent for almost three years, and so on). With Devil May Cry 5, I'm sure it's been delayed for the same reason as Deep Down and Resident Evil 7: Panta Rhei is a mess if rumors are to be believed.
 
Oh, I wasn't trying to discredit Verendus or anything like that, I was just genuinely wondering when did he make that big post of his. If I remember correctly a couple of things that he said have already been proven right, actually. He said we'll get some sort of spin-off from FF VII that won't be what people are expecting but most of them will like it (World of FF) and he talked about a new TPS from Capcom (Umbrella Corps) which if memory serves, he made cheeky comment about it as well, which we now know why.

Anyway, GE is right. Verendus did talk about next mainline DMC game last year, in other DMC related threads and I had forgotten all about that. So yeah, I think that answers what I was initially curious/wondering about.
 

Dahbomb

Member
Alright time for some DMC brainstorm session brought to you by the good ol' toilet seat.


I was thinking how Capcom can really incentivize players to actually explore the environments for some good stuff that doesn't involve just boring health upgrades. When it comes to speed runs and just combat min/maxing... most of the exploration in DMC games is completely unnecessary. The reward from exploration in a DMC game boils down to getting a health upgrade (as a collectible, through a secret mission or through a combat adjudicator) or a consumable item (which no one wants to be using anyway)... that's really lackluster and is not a good enough reward for exploration or for Capcom to design good levels.

For there to be good incentive to explore, there needs to be a good reward hiding in the levels. And by that I mean stuff that increases your combat prowess far beyond just numbers. DMC1/DMC3 sort of have weapons in the environments but there aren't that many of them and most are usually in plain sight. No I am talking about a new system of collectibles here that enhance the combat.

Keeping in line with the tradition of DMC1, I am going to introduce "Runes" into DMC. As you guys may know, the DT gauge in DMC1 was symbolized by a series of rune symbols. In other games runes are usually attached to weapons to give like damage/crit boosts as in most RPGs. That's not suitable for a DMC game, no one wants to min/max DPS gauges or toughness... nah, I am suggesting that is to go even further beyond.

Every weapon can be equipped with 5 runes. However, you aren't equipped the 5 runes to the weapon.. you are equipped runes to the moves of the weapon. Think of them sort of like Support Gems in PoE. Here are a few that I thought of very quickly:

*Jump cancel rune: The move you equip this rune to has the property of being jump canceled out of during any frame. So you can attach this to Stinger and as soon as it connects you can jump out of it and do whatever you want. This is like tip of the ice berg stuff obviously, the experts can already see the applications of this.

*Phantom hit box rune: This extends the range of a move far beyond it's visual hit animation, sort of like how Vergil starts getting phantom hit boxes when he is at maximum motivation.

*Crazy cancel rune: You can attach this to a move and you can cancel that move into another move that has a rune equipped. So you can create synergies with moves that you didn't think of before.

*Dodge cancel rune: Move equipped with this move can be canceled into a dodge at any frame.

*Dodge offset rune: If you hit the attack button right after a dodge, the move that has this rune attached will come out instantly from a dodge.

*Devil enhanced rune: Attaching this rune to a move will give it the same properties on normal usage as it would if it was Devil Triggered. So Kick 13 gets enhanced to the DT Kick 13 version without needing to actually be in DT.


You get the idea. Basically, these are mechanics changes to moves that enhance customization of combat and greatly advances combat depth/breadth. Of course because you need 5 per weapon, you need to have at least a few copies of a rune in the game so you can attach a similar type of rune to different weapons in your load out (like have a jump cancel rune on Stinger and then have another one on Straight). There can even be lvl1, 2, 3 versions of runes on higher difficulties but that would probably only apply to certain runes.


There would also be runes you can attach to the character's basic moves (like air hike, wall run, rolls etc.) but those are more special types of runes and are more unique. So you can have a rune that turns your dodges into dashes if you time them properly to an attack or another rune that allows you to dodge an additional time or yet another rune that increases the i-frames on your dodge.
 

GuardianE

Santa May Claus
Alright time for some DMC brainstorm session brought to you by the good ol' toilet seat.

That's definitely a neat idea, reminiscent of Smash Bros. Customs or SFXT gems. I suppose one reservation I have is that I don't think any item or collectible should replace the current inherent character specific systems in place, and Capcom will need to avoid duplicative move properties running parallel to those systems.

Custom runes would add fascinating new customizability to any sort of Remix mode. And in a side mode like that, they can really let things get crazy without having to worry about balance.

I also think I'd be more interested in adjustments that added different properties to moves rather than straight up enhancements like multihits, bigger hitbox, or more I frames. Maybe things like adding launch properties, knockback, armor break, stun, air enabling, vacuum effect or pull.
 

Dahbomb

Member
I also think I'd be more interested in adjustments that added different properties to moves rather than straight up enhancements like multihits, bigger hitbox, or more I frames. Maybe things like adding launch properties, knockback, armor break, stun, air enabling, vacuum effect or pull.
Oh yeah I had those in the bank too.

Stuff like adding ground bounce to attacks so you can do a Stinger and after the knockback finishes they pop up in the air due to the ground bounce rune. Similar to how you get that ground bounce from Nero's charge shots after they explode.


And screw Dead Rising 4!!!
 
I'm liking this Rune idea as well. It kinda reminds me of Quartz in Trails of Cold Steel and how you can put a few on each character and they give you certain moves and different properties and such.

And yeah, Dead Rising 4. Let's be honest we all saw that coming.
 
Really, I take getting Dead Rising 4 as a good sign since it's about the same size as Devil May Cry sales wise. The fact they are still funding it is a good sign.


I would be satisfied for something as a slip up from Itsuno, btw is he gonna be in E3?

Is Langdon gonna be there or was that just a misunderstanding?
 
Looking forward to DR4, as am I hopeful that DMC5 will get a TGS teaser. The rune idea has a lot of potential, makes me wonder why they never expanded on the amulet system.
 

GuardianE

Santa May Claus
No I got that. I just remember that there was a rumor mill earlier based off the E3 main page showing Langdon. I was just wondering if anyone got the full story.

That was just an image that they used of a crowd reacting in surprise. I don't even think Langdon knew they were going to use his photo, based on his Tweet. He might be there, but I wouldn't say that image is any confirmation of his participation unfortunately.
 
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