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Devil May Cry 4 Special Edition |OT| Two girls, one motivated Vergil

I think Ninja Gaiden 1 and 2 have pretty great environmental design, at least. I know part of that is just because NGB has higher graphical quality than most of the DMC series, but both NG games still have really cool environments, while almost all of the particularly cool-looking areas in DMC come from DMC1 and... DmC.

DMC definitely has the edge in terms of character design though.
 

TreIII

Member
While I'm incredibly excited about Ni-Oh, and I think the enemy/environment design shown thus far has been fantastic, I'll echo some of the responses in here that Ninja Gaiden enemy design is extremely hit or miss. In fact, I'd argue it's goddamn awful in NG2. There are a few great environments in NG2, but the rest and the enemies are mostly garbage in that game. NG1 is far more even keel.

Perhaps it's just nostalgia talking, as I haven't played either Black or 2 in a long time, at this point. But I guess I just remember NG mooks being at least more visually interesting to me than say, 3's "Sins" series or 4's rouges besides the Angelos, Blitzes and who they bothered to bring back from DMC1.
 

GuardianE

Santa May Claus
Perhaps it's just nostalgia talking, as I haven't played either Black or 2 in a long time, at this point. But I guess I just remember NG mooks being at least more visually interesting to me than say, 3's "Sins" series or 4's rouges besides the Angelos, Blitzes and who they bothered to bring back from DMC1.

While a lot of people are kind of down on the Sins in DMC3, I appreciated their consistent theming and visual design. Their movesets, too, were in line with the sin they represented. And similarly, the chess pieces were interesting in concept, even if their execution fell a little flat. I do understand the criticism tossed their way, though.

Some of NG2's enemies were really really awful. The giant fiends looked cartoonish and gangly. The werewolves were really uninspired and non-threatening looking. They chucked an infinite supply of severed limbs at you. In the swamps, there were cyclops zombies with a cannon for one arm and a chainsaw for the other. It looked like a 6th grader's doodle during math class.

For the bosses, you have a member of the Spider Ninja clan who is literally a giant spider. There were nuclear armadillos. There was one giant tunnel worm. There was a possessed flying subway train fish thing.

NG1 had some great designs, but NG2's were an unfocused and questionable mess to me.

And as a sidenote, I'm definitely not trying to turn this into a DMC vs NG anything. I celebrate both series, and I usually try to stave off that negativity if possible. It would benefit us all for both series to return to form.
 

Dahbomb

Member
Just read some Dead Rising 4 information...

Jesus christ...Itsuno please deliver us glorious DMC5 already. All these mediocre action games are chipping away at my soul.
 

NEO0MJ

Member
Funny to see this bumped as I'm finally digging into the game. Coming from Bayonetta I found it a little harder to get inputs right here due to the camera.
 

Golnei

Member
I didn't really get into Toukiden, so the sum of my experience with even relatively recent Team Ninja games is basically just DOA5 and Other M. Coming from that, Ni-oh is a particularly striking improvement as far as overall art direction goes; especially in regards to having environmental art that isn't crushingly dull in comparison to impressive character models. I really like their work on the new Dissidia as well, but considering the source material is largely not original, it might be more of an execution rather than direction thing.

Funny to see this bumped as I'm finally digging into the game. Coming from Bayonetta I found it a little harder to get inputs right here due to the camera.

Whatever else they add or change for 5, the fixed camera sequences definitely have to go, at least in combat.
 
My feelings are mixed about the prospect of an open-world DMC; it'd be fun but I worry that it'd be hard to preserve the score-attack side of the game (and roaming an open world that constantly throws up magic barriers would get annoying).
 

TreIII

Member
While a lot of people are kind of down on the Sins in DMC3, I appreciated their consistent theming and visual design. Their movesets, too, were in line with the sin they represented. And similarly, the chess pieces were interesting in concept, even if their execution fell a little flat. I do understand the criticism tossed their way, though.

Some of NG2's enemies were really really awful. The giant fiends looked cartoonish and gangly. The werewolves were really uninspired and non-threatening looking. They chucked an infinite supply of severed limbs at you. In the swamps, there were cyclops zombies with a cannon for one arm and a chainsaw for the other. It looked like a 6th grader's doodle during math class.

For the bosses, you have a member of the Spider Ninja clan who is literally a giant spider. There were nuclear armadillos. There was one giant tunnel worm. There was a possessed flying subway train fish thing.

NG1 had some great designs, but NG2's were an unfocused and questionable mess to me.

And as a sidenote, I'm definitely not trying to turn this into a DMC vs NG anything. I celebrate both series, and I usually try to stave off that negativity if possible. It would benefit us all for both series to return to form.

Nah, I think it's all good, as long as nobody gets particularly nasty about it (and I'm sure most of us had the privilege of living through such Internet arguments in our times with such fandoms). Besides, the very nature of a topic of this sort would inevitably mean we'd be discussing other such games and what may or may not work for DMC.


In other news...congrats to P*'s Kenji Saito for apparently locking up another gig on that Granblue Action-RPG title! It looks like the guy finally snapped up a title that will give him more than just a year and shoestring budget to make happen.

I only lament that this likely means no Transformers Devastation will come from him...
 
Funny to see this bumped as I'm finally digging into the game. Coming from Bayonetta I found it a little harder to get inputs right here due to the camera.
Whatever else they add or change for 5, the fixed camera sequences definitely have to go, at least in combat.
Pretty sure the camera thing is on the GAF master list.

Yep.
3fOBol0.jpg

Interestingly enough, we actually had the hub world suggestion in as well. even with KiD as an example.
 

Dahbomb

Member
Capcom is going to look at that and take away the wrong stuff or implement it improperly then say "but we listened to the fans!"

LMAO!
 
Ehh I wouldn't worry about DMC5 too much.

The main reason why RE7 is the way it is because people have been begging for a horror game so Capcom was like "ya motherfuckers don't wanna suplex zombies anymore?!?! Here's a horror walking simulator and you better like it" (RE7 probably isn't going to be that but you get the point)

DMC5 they know we basically want DMC3 again just with more characters, modes, and a change to the structure of the campaign. Plus, Itsuno hasn't let me down before so I trust that man.

Capcom will fuck up DMC5 in some way, but I don't think it will be the core game. It'll probably be DLC for characters and bloody palace or some shit.
 

RazMaTaz

Banned
The problem with Capcom is they treat Devil May Cry like sum guinea pig experiment. Devil May Cry 2 was supposed to appeal to casuals, Devil May Cry 3 for die hard fans, DMC4 was supposed to bring in newer players (especially females according to Koyabashi), then we got DmC which wanted to take a western take to appeal to more westerners. Devil May Cry 4 may not have been everyones cup of tea, but i think it set a solid foundation for Devil May Cry's story to actually begin progressing.

TGS is the biggest Japanese gaming event, it would be a perfect opportunity to at least announce the title. Come on Capcom:

JoT9Qw.png
 

Dante_727

Banned
After lurking here for years, finally I have an account. It has been awesome to follow you guys from the day DMC4 special edition was announced til now.
I know many of you guys, especially Dahbomb ( from ign.. around 2004..ish)
Wanted to write a long story of how i became die hard DMC fan but I am at work :/
 

GuardianE

Santa May Claus
After lurking here for years, finally I have an account. It has been awesome to follow you guys from the day DMC4 special edition was announced til now.
I know many of you guys, especially Dahbomb ( from ign.. around 2004..ish)
Wanted to write a long story of how i became die hard DMC fan but I am at work :/

Welcome! Glad you decided to pop in. Feel free to post your story later. Those are always a fun read.
 
There are a thousand ways they can mess up DMC5.

I think both DMC4 and DmC show a slightly distressing lack of direction and an attempt to focus group their way to success in many ways, yeah. I think Capcom was actually right that the series was showing its age, but they didn't demonstrate an understanding of which parts of it were aging (apparently they thought the problem was Dante?) or how to fix the series (which is why the Buster mechanic and a lot of things about DmC were all about chasing that God of War dollar).

But, like I said, Capcom *was* right that the series was showing its age in some ways, even if they didn't know how to modernize the series and their attempts to do so were kinda disastrous. If DMC5 is to succeed, it's going to need a willingness to throw out some series mainstays that are holding the series back (as I've said repeatedly, I think that's the chapter structure/linear campaign, not the lead character or the aesthetics), but it's also going to need a bold vision from its creators and not just an attempt to imitate more successful series. That's the part that worries me. BUT: odd numbered DMC games are blessed with excellence, and Itsuno's showed a terrific willingness and ability to learn from the past, so we'll see. I'm cautiously optimistic.

edit: honestly, now that I think about it, arguably even DMC3 was a little bit of a reboot
 
After lurking here for years, finally I have an account. It has been awesome to follow you guys from the day DMC4 special edition was announced til now.
I know many of you guys, especially Dahbomb ( from ign.. around 2004..ish)
Wanted to write a long story of how i became die hard DMC fan but I am at work :/

Welcome to GAF and DMC community :)
 

TreIII

Member
The problem with Capcom is they treat Devil May Cry like sum guinea pig experiment. Devil May Cry 2 was supposed to appeal to casuals, Devil May Cry 3 for die hard fans, DMC4 was supposed to bring in newer players (especially females according to Koyabashi), then we got DmC which wanted to take a western take to appeal to more westerners. Devil May Cry 4 may not have been everyones cup of tea, but i think it set a solid foundation for Devil May Cry's story to actually begin progressing.

Story should be the easy part. They can pretty much do whatever the hell they want for a 5th game, as long as it follows certain beats that allow Vergil back into the plot, somewhat address Nero's paternity, let Dante be front, center and "Smoking Sick Stylish" again, and give us a new Big Bad for the Super Sparda Squad and friends to combat.

The main problem I see is pretty much what you already listed: DMC has very much been a reactionary franchise since the second game in the series, instead of being a leader in the genre it founded. If it keeps going in that direction, it's just going to end up going in a cycle of chasing after something, and may lose aspects of its identity in the process. And that's all the more reason I'm hoping that a "post-Dragon's Dogma" Itsuno would bring a bit more to the table in ways that we couldn't imagine, and may actually pleasantly surprise us a bit.
 
think we already got that we DmC but I fear there will be more colossal bosses rather than human sized etc...

love fighting a face and a pair of hands, also dodging incredibly well-telegraphed ground-pound shockwave attacks

also, when the boss is out of range 99% of the time


edit: that said, Phantom and Cerberus and Beowulf and Berial are all really great bosses - DMC is capable of doing mid-size bosses really well and I don't have a problem with them whatsoever.

I wish DMC bosses wouldn't have "i'm stunned and/or my weakpoint is exposed, now's the time to whale on me for a bunch of free damage" states, though - it feels cheap to me and they generally end up getting balanced around doing like 75% of your damage output during that state, whereas (if anything) you should be rewarded for attacking them when it's most dangerous (provided you're able to dodge their attacks, obviously) instead of when it's safest. One of the things I liked most about Vergil in DMC3 is that although he *does* have times you should and shouldn't attack him, he doesn't at any point just take it sitting down because he's stunned or whatever (and anytime you get in a combo string on him you genuinely have to earn it *and* stay alert for his block and counter). DMC3's Beowulf is also pretty good about it (in the sense that his 'stunned' state is extremely brief, happens only a couple times in the entire battle, and is followed up immediately with a powerful attack you have to get the fuck away from). I know with Berial they kinda tried for the same idea but his stun lasts *so* long and he takes so long to telegraph his big AoE blast that it's piss-easy to get away from it. Bosses designed *entirely* around lengthy vulnerable/invulnerable states - like Nevan, even though I like her moveset, or Doppelganger, or Echidna - get hurt really badly by that, and it's something that basically all of DMC4's and DmC's bosses are incredibly guilty of.
 
Picked this up on the sale. Playing as Vergil is good but so fucking easy lol. Though certain enemies such as wraiths are clearly not balanced since he has no devil hand.
 
Picked this up on the sale. Playing as Vergil is good but so fucking easy lol. Though certain enemies such as wraiths are clearly not balanced since he has no devil hand.

He can teleport to wraiths, and his Storm Swords wreck their shielding IIRC.

But yeah, the Concentration mechanic is fairly abusable since it naturally goes up if you're playing properly anyway - it doesn't ask anything of you that wasn't already demanded by playing the game right. He's incredibly well designed and full of depth but also basically breaks the game because he's so overpowered too. As a general blueprint for the future of DMC gameplay, though, he's fantastic (and feels MUCH more polished than Dante, by the way).
 

Dahbomb

Member
I like that whiffing attacks lowers concentration but I don't like how you can raise it by just walking. That's not how you are supposed to be playing DMC. It might have been fine if the game was ultra aggressive and standing was actually very risky but that's not the case.
 

NEO0MJ

Member
So I should have started as Vergil?

Just kidding, I usually like playing as the default first. But man camera really is frustrating. I keep falling down the hole in chapter 7 in the part with the disappearing platforms where you're chased by those two wraiths(?)
 

RazMaTaz

Banned
think we already got that we DmC but I fear there will be more colossal bosses rather than human sized etc...

I would not mind if we actually got more fights like Mundus. Also a multiple boss like Agni and Rudra would go far. Its a shame because I once thought with the power of ps3 and Xbox, that Koyabashi and Itsuno would get their creative juices running, and we would see a large scale fight with Dante v Nero, Credo and Agnus. Something chaotic yet badass
 
holy shit I forgot how bad the platforming in this game is. Your forward jump is so ridged and barely moves forward.

that spinning tower thing on level 10 is horrible.
 
holy shit I forgot how bad the platforming in this game is. Your forward jump is so ridged and barely moves forward.

that spinning tower thing on level 10 is horrible.
Yeah, I can understand the reasoning in the transition from DMC4 to DmC that went "let's make the platforming better," but I think the games would be better with no platforming whatsoever (and frankly that's true of DmC as well - its platforming is better but still not great). Platforming sections are there because of the need for pacing, which is there because of the mistaken belief in a linear campaign.
 

Dahbomb

Member
What are they going to do in between the combat sections if there's no platforming? The level design has to be god tier for them to promote exploration of the environment as a side thing to the combat.
 

Dahbomb

Member
There hasn't been an action game made that is good and didn't break up the action with something. It is actually essential for proper pacing.
 

GuardianE

Santa May Claus
The main issue with platforming in DMC is that it's mostly forced into a game with mechanics that were designed almost exclusively for combat. The best scenario would be one where they utilize combat traversal mechanics in unique and fun/fast ways. Thus far, they've failed to do that with grim grips in DMC4 or the general platforming in DmC.

Faster paced puzzles that either incorporate some combat traversal mechanics or allow you to simply explore a room would be preferable. Nothing as slow and plodding as the gyro blades. Just because there's a sequence break for pacing doesn't mean it has to be boring and imposing.

Generally just axe precision jumping. The reason why platformers are fun is because the core jumping is fun. Unless DMC has fun jumping, precision jump platforming will never be fun and never feel rewarding. Instead, it should use its strengths in combat and use "pseudo-platforming" to teach the player something new about a mechanic they can use in combat later.
 

Dahbomb

Member
DMC has very precise jumping, too precise in fact which is why it's so easy to fail. The jump is too rigid which means it's harder to adjust mid air. That's why most platforming games allow a great deal of manuevering and adjustment in the air. Hell just look at Super Mario as the classic example.
 

GuardianE

Santa May Claus
DMC has very precise jumping, too precise in fact which is why it's so easy to fail. The jump is too rigid which means it's harder to adjust mid air. That's why most platforming games allow a great deal of manuevering and adjustment in the air. Hell just look at Super Mario as the classic example.

Sure. I didn't say the jumping wasn't precise. I said it wasn't fun. And the combination of precision jump and precision platforming sections yields sequences that are needlessly cumbersome and unintuitive. It's not the focus of the game, and it never was. At best, it's a mild nuisance. At worst, it's an exercise in frustration.

And I stand by it. The average player doesn't know that you have short hops and direction jumps at locked distances. They don't know that you need to neutral jump for fine maneuverability onto platforms. And it really doesn't matter much. It's inconsequential knowledge.

What the game would be better served at teaching is the distance of a wallrun, or the I frames of particular evasive moves, or utilization of wall hike and enemy step to reach higher ground. Adding a time component might even make it a fun challenge as long as the punishment isn't droll and boring.

Adding maneuverability to the jump isn't really a long term solution. It's a change that should happen, but that's not going to all of a sudden give depth and fun to platforming sequences.
 
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