AgentLampshade
Member
More "smash the skulls together" puzzles and "hit the right mirror" puzzles.
And that's a fucking page claim!
And that's a fucking page claim!
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Devil May Cry 4 Special Edition |OT| Two girls, one motivated Vergil
- Thread starter Sigmaah
- Start date
trick up (teleport w/out embedded sword) and air stinger help him a lot for that garbage
yamato air rave B also helps a bit because of the gained height off the third attack
no
more combat sections
or the stupid wrecking ball thing from dmc3 that thing is fun because it's actually a combat section
Son Of Sparda
Member
As awesome as those clips are, the game still needs breather sections between the combat otherwise it'll alienate a big portion of its more casual fan base.
===
I know that some people will accuse DMC of copying and I'll personally would have a really tough time dealing with some of GOW fans mocking DMC for it, but I wouldn't mind if they try to add more varied forms of traversal like how GOW series used to them. (I'm taking about the variety of those parts, not the quantity)
At the very least, traversal in GOW series isn't a pain like the ones from DMC.
Now that I think about it, Prince of Persia would be another good example to take inspiration from if they try to do better traversal/platforming in DMC5.
direct_quote
Member
I agree with more combat sections, or at least more beefed up combat sections in DMD. I felt DMC4 DMD mode felt super weak, mostly same amount of enemies (obviously with different enemy types). So something in-between DMC4 DMD and DMC3 DMD would be great... I think for breaking it combat if jumping is changed Itsuno could add platforms, but if they are like DMC4 then no thanks.. None of the noncombat sections in DMC4 were remotely fun. Made playing the campaign so tedious...
Also should add a GMD difficulty if you're going to put OP characters like Vergil in... I really love DMC4:SE Vergil but he does too much damage.
The noncombat sections in DMC4 were unfun because they are bad.
I would be fine with no dedicated platforming/puzzle sections if the level design is amazing and you can just explore it for items/secrets. Maybe you can explore some secret areas and drop in some ridiculously hard sections (like they do in the Souls game... everyone Souls game has that one area with a really hard encounter).
The DMC team has not really produced a DMC game with impeccable level design so I can't really expect them to do that with DMC5.
I would be fine with no dedicated platforming/puzzle sections if the level design is amazing and you can just explore it for items/secrets. Maybe you can explore some secret areas and drop in some ridiculously hard sections (like they do in the Souls game... everyone Souls game has that one area with a really hard encounter).
The DMC team has not really produced a DMC game with impeccable level design so I can't really expect them to do that with DMC5.
darkslayer101
Member
Playstation conference on Sept 13th y'all...
badcrumble
Member
Eh, this stuff is one more reason why I'm against DMC5 having traditional "levels" in any sense.
Pacing does matter, and DMC3 does it very well, but if the filler between combat sections is never actually all that fun I'd much rather they just find ways to make combat more varied (like in terms of the scenario taking place).
Pacing does matter, and DMC3 does it very well, but if the filler between combat sections is never actually all that fun I'd much rather they just find ways to make combat more varied (like in terms of the scenario taking place).
Simply not having any platforming sections that are necessary for progress would help immeasurably with making them more tolerable, even if the actual level design isn't any better. That'd also give the upshot of not making the player go through them more than once, which I'd prefer even if they were decent - of course, that's all assuming they're not deviating from the level structure they've used so far.
This really helped me enjoy her moveset.
Son Of Sparda
Member
Fingers crossed for a DMC5/Onimusha logo drop and more info
new teaser demo
badcrumble
Member
With regard to the pacing issue (and also not simply making the game into a fairly homogenous-seeming-to-newbies conveyor belt of battle after battle), I think it's also fair and important to note how enemy design factors into that. I think that for lower-skilled players, a good way to make battles still engaging on the easiest difficulty is to make the actual mix of enemies a factor, and that means enemies that are well-differentiated and where the actual mix of enemies you get in an encounter radically affects how it'll play out.
I still think that the gold standard for that in games is probably Doom 2 - you've got basic fodder enemies and then some enemies whose presence radically changes the game (especially the Revenant, of course).
But Devil May Cry has done a good job of having that show up sometimes - for example, I like the fact that Bishops can heal surrounding chess pieces in DMC3 or that Hell Wrath/Hell Greed are targets that change your strategy. In DMC4, I don't mind the *idea* of Chimera Seeds being a thing, but they're kinda bullshit in terms of their actual implementation, but the Alto Angelos working as a 'captain' of the Bianco Angelos is great too. Likewise for DmC, the Witch and its ability to spawn a shield around other enemies is good stuff (though I don't like the color-coding part of that).
And, of course, enemies that are kinda miniboss-ish (Shadow, Hell Vanguard, Blitz, Dreamrunner) are good stuff too.
But yeah, I like the idea of (for example) an encounter with a *lot* of defense-heavy enemies who can shield each other and/or heal each other. Done right, it'd be a good encounter for building up lots of Style *and* you'd have to put some strategy into defeating targets efficiently.
Good *environmental* effects that add variety to battles include things like the floor electrifying periodically and the spawning/disappearing platforms stuff from DMC4, the minecart/whatever-it-was battles in DMC3, or that cool bit in DmC where you battle the harpies on a bunch of glass platforms that get destroyed over the course of the battle.
edit: also, I wouldn't be super surprised if the initial idea for DMC4's Mega Scarecrows was that that multiple regular Scarecrows could combine into one Mega Scarecrow, and I'd enjoy seeing something like that in a DMC5 enemy. it's important for DMC to have fodder/sandbag enemies for you to style on mercilessly, of course, but I think designing enemies not just in terms of "what is it like to fight this enemy" or "what is it like to fight a group of this enemy" but also "what does this enemy add to a diverse group of enemies in one encounter" is deeply rewarding and something for DMC's designers to focus on.
I still think that the gold standard for that in games is probably Doom 2 - you've got basic fodder enemies and then some enemies whose presence radically changes the game (especially the Revenant, of course).
But Devil May Cry has done a good job of having that show up sometimes - for example, I like the fact that Bishops can heal surrounding chess pieces in DMC3 or that Hell Wrath/Hell Greed are targets that change your strategy. In DMC4, I don't mind the *idea* of Chimera Seeds being a thing, but they're kinda bullshit in terms of their actual implementation, but the Alto Angelos working as a 'captain' of the Bianco Angelos is great too. Likewise for DmC, the Witch and its ability to spawn a shield around other enemies is good stuff (though I don't like the color-coding part of that).
And, of course, enemies that are kinda miniboss-ish (Shadow, Hell Vanguard, Blitz, Dreamrunner) are good stuff too.
But yeah, I like the idea of (for example) an encounter with a *lot* of defense-heavy enemies who can shield each other and/or heal each other. Done right, it'd be a good encounter for building up lots of Style *and* you'd have to put some strategy into defeating targets efficiently.
Good *environmental* effects that add variety to battles include things like the floor electrifying periodically and the spawning/disappearing platforms stuff from DMC4, the minecart/whatever-it-was battles in DMC3, or that cool bit in DmC where you battle the harpies on a bunch of glass platforms that get destroyed over the course of the battle.
edit: also, I wouldn't be super surprised if the initial idea for DMC4's Mega Scarecrows was that that multiple regular Scarecrows could combine into one Mega Scarecrow, and I'd enjoy seeing something like that in a DMC5 enemy. it's important for DMC to have fodder/sandbag enemies for you to style on mercilessly, of course, but I think designing enemies not just in terms of "what is it like to fight this enemy" or "what is it like to fight a group of this enemy" but also "what does this enemy add to a diverse group of enemies in one encounter" is deeply rewarding and something for DMC's designers to focus on.
I wouldn't mind seeing more attention given to interactions between enemies; assuming they're more along the lines of meaningful expansions like the Bianco Angelos being commanded by Altos and not the Chimera Seeds' non-specific, annoying buff (though enemies providing simple buffs to others can function well enough if the state change isn't as momentum-killing, like the Enraptures in Bayonetta).
Combination attacks, fusing, fighting amongst themselves (which, while not particularly present in the campaign, did give some Bloody Palace stages in 4 an interesting dynamic); it'd all help in allowing them to design combat encounters that feel like more differentiated challenges. Like you said, environmental elements will also play a role there, though it might be easier for those to end up turning into intrusive or pointless gimmicks rather than bringing anything interesting to the scenario - the Faults in DMC4's forest come to mind as a particularly useless addition.
Combination attacks, fusing, fighting amongst themselves (which, while not particularly present in the campaign, did give some Bloody Palace stages in 4 an interesting dynamic); it'd all help in allowing them to design combat encounters that feel like more differentiated challenges. Like you said, environmental elements will also play a role there, though it might be easier for those to end up turning into intrusive or pointless gimmicks rather than bringing anything interesting to the scenario - the Faults in DMC4's forest come to mind as a particularly useless addition.
badcrumble
Member
Good point regarding enemies fighting among themselves, yeah - that does a lot to flavor things *and* can be a boon to players who aren't sure how to be aggressive.
And ugh, yeah, Faults and Chimera Seeds were the dumbest.
Basically, non-boss enemies shouldn't be able to break their way out of a combo (see: enemies in Bayonetta 2) and they DEFINITELY shouldnt be able to attack you in the middle of it like Chimera-infected enemies. I'm alright with enemies having offensive options while you're attacking them (like an aggressive/punishing recovery move once they fall out of a juggle state) but not based on actually just disrupting your combo.
And ugh, yeah, Faults and Chimera Seeds were the dumbest.
Basically, non-boss enemies shouldn't be able to break their way out of a combo (see: enemies in Bayonetta 2) and they DEFINITELY shouldnt be able to attack you in the middle of it like Chimera-infected enemies. I'm alright with enemies having offensive options while you're attacking them (like an aggressive/punishing recovery move once they fall out of a juggle state) but not based on actually just disrupting your combo.
I've mentioned this before, and it may be a little divisive, but I'm not necessarily opposed to certain high level leader enemies having a "burst mechanic" that's overly choreographed with a tell. It could encourage a burst bait and punish, which might mix up encounters. And it deals with the major issues with the chimera- they happen too often, on fodder enemies, and there isn't as slow or deliberate of a tell.
I think "intrusive or pointless" is right on the money in terms of describing the type of environmental obstacles or puzzles we've seen in DMC4, for example. Usually, they involve falling into a pit to fight additional enemies, and resetting progress. While there should be punishment for mistakes, the tedium involved and the slowness of the sections only serve as padding for the worst portions of the game.
If they're determined to send you into a pit as punishment, then force the player to learn the mechanic before they can escape the pit, in a relatively low risk environment. A particular standout to me is the Grim Grip puzzle in the cathedral. So many people just don't ever understand how to complete that section. They eventually just mash their way through. It's because the punishment isn't related to the actual platforming mechanics at all, so you really don't learn from your mistake other than "I fucked up."
Of course, this all assumes that there's a mechanic worth learning, which is why I feel like the base puzzle/platforming really just needs to be something light and with a sense of speed.
badcrumble
Member
Regarding a 'burst' mechanic, I'm honestly perfectly happy with how it was handled with DMC3 Vergil (he blocks, teleports, and counters). The block stun gives you just enough time to react to his counter and is a very noticeable tell. Teleport isn't an essential ingredient, of course.
I suppose a similar thing would be what you see with the Blitz and Shadow enemies in the series - it's really really clear when you need to stop attacking them and get slightly back on the defensive.
But yeah, these things should be designed so that you can more easily counter THEIR counterattack - essentially rewarding the player for knowing what they're doing so you can actually keep your combo going by correctly anticipating their burst and positioning yourself to dodge it and stun them out of it, with something like Nero's Shuffle move or a well-timed Helmbreaker.
These are already things you need to be ready for with well-armored enemies who are tougher to stun or with groups of enemies, but it'd be nice to add an additional way to require reaction times and to punish button-mashing.
I suppose a similar thing would be what you see with the Blitz and Shadow enemies in the series - it's really really clear when you need to stop attacking them and get slightly back on the defensive.
But yeah, these things should be designed so that you can more easily counter THEIR counterattack - essentially rewarding the player for knowing what they're doing so you can actually keep your combo going by correctly anticipating their burst and positioning yourself to dodge it and stun them out of it, with something like Nero's Shuffle move or a well-timed Helmbreaker.
These are already things you need to be ready for with well-armored enemies who are tougher to stun or with groups of enemies, but it'd be nice to add an additional way to require reaction times and to punish button-mashing.
J_Macgrady
Member
I'm pretty sure this has been mentioned before, but wouldn't the best solution to the DMC4 Dante is too complex problem would be to allow the players to customize him?
Why go through all that trouble of creating a new control scheme and/or removing the style system when they can just have the player decide how many styles and weapons they want equipped?
1. For the crazy combo video people, they can have 6 weapons equipped and all 5-6 styles
2. For everyone else, you can choose your loadout based on you comfort zone.
I would prefer to have all styles equipped, but with only 4 weapons because I struggle with weapon switching in DMC4. If people want to go back to the classic DMC3 way and have one style and 4 weapons they can do that. If you only care for Swordmaster and Trickster then you can just run through the game with those styles and be at ease.
I've seen other suggestions on here and some of them required changing the control scheme when there's nothing wrong with it. The only reason why Capcom would change it is to let everyone play like Brea when that's just not possible and that's ok.
Why go through all that trouble of creating a new control scheme and/or removing the style system when they can just have the player decide how many styles and weapons they want equipped?
1. For the crazy combo video people, they can have 6 weapons equipped and all 5-6 styles
2. For everyone else, you can choose your loadout based on you comfort zone.
I would prefer to have all styles equipped, but with only 4 weapons because I struggle with weapon switching in DMC4. If people want to go back to the classic DMC3 way and have one style and 4 weapons they can do that. If you only care for Swordmaster and Trickster then you can just run through the game with those styles and be at ease.
I've seen other suggestions on here and some of them required changing the control scheme when there's nothing wrong with it. The only reason why Capcom would change it is to let everyone play like Brea when that's just not possible and that's ok.
Well, in case anybody missed it...looks another part of Verendus' old list came to life (albeit in a monkey's paw fashion for those who really hoping for a PS4 MonHun).
But if nothing else...I'm starting to feel even better about a possible TGS/Sony event reveal making our dreams to come true.
But if nothing else...I'm starting to feel even better about a possible TGS/Sony event reveal making our dreams to come true.
Well even if they change the control scheme, that's not going to allow average Joe to play like Brea. Skill ceiling will still be retained.
I have made that suggestion before too of allowing players to customize based on their needs. Hell I went one step further and said that players can be allowed to have 1 firearm and 4 melee weapons if they so choose (the firearm weapon switch is changed to having another pair of melee weapons to switch from).
Son Of Sparda
Member
I think after being absent for a decade, Itsuno and co need to change a lot of things in DMC5.
IMO the jump from DMC4 to DMC5 should be more in line to DMC2 ---> DMC3, than DMC3 ---> DMC4.
So when I think about DMC5, I don't want to see just some new weapons. I wanna see them introduce completely new and innovative systems, like how they did styles in DMC3.
IMO the jump from DMC4 to DMC5 should be more in line to DMC2 ---> DMC3, than DMC3 ---> DMC4.
So when I think about DMC5, I don't want to see just some new weapons. I wanna see them introduce completely new and innovative systems, like how they did styles in DMC3.
That goes without saying.
I want to see something that makes me do the Wee-Bey face.
I want Itsuno to come up on stage and be like...
"This is DMC3, we introduced Styles, crazy combos, OTF weapon switch"
"This... is DMC4. On the fly style switch, Devil Bringer, Just Revs, Concentration"
"And THIS .... IS TO GO EVEN FURTHER BEYOND!!!!"
I want to see something that makes me do the Wee-Bey face.
I want Itsuno to come up on stage and be like...
"This is DMC3, we introduced Styles, crazy combos, OTF weapon switch"
"This... is DMC4. On the fly style switch, Devil Bringer, Just Revs, Concentration"
"And THIS .... IS TO GO EVEN FURTHER BEYOND!!!!"
badcrumble
Member
Yeah. I don't see tons of advantage in removing style switching, but I'd like to see each style be as powerful as they were in DMC3 (but still requiring skill to use them well, of course) - Trickster and RG were (perhaps justly but I don't care) heavily nerfed in DMC4, I felt.
Weapon switching on the other hand, yeah. Having to tap the weapon switch button twice sometimes to get to the right weapon felt so mushy. It's great that the option exists, but frankly I'd be much happier being able to de-equip Lucifer and Pandora most of the time - I'm not a big fan of either.
"This is DMC5! we brought back crazy combos"
*a few people in this thread cheer wildly*
Yeah. I think, for one thing, DMC can be a little bit less afraid of introducing slightly more in the way of RPG elements; Bayonetta managed to do this well without feeling like it was becoming an ARPG rather than a CAG, because accessories (except for the deliberately gamebreaking ones) are not meant to be gamebreaking, just to broaden your options a little bit. I'd say that Onimusha 2/3's bracelets did a decent job of this as well.
I think it's essential to avoid any sort of accessories that reduce damage taken or increase damage dealt - that's not only an overly blunt instrument, it'd also wreck the game balance - but I'd be *very* okay with taking toggle-style Styles like DMC3's Quicksilver and Doppelganger and essentially being able to equip them as modifiers to Dante's DT (rather than as wholly separate buttons). Generally, I'd be fine with a broad set of DT-only modifiers being available (sort of like how in DMC3 different weapons gave your DT different properties, like Nevan's super-fast regen or Cerberus's speed increase) that would otherwise be obviously imbalanced for regular play.
For normal non-DT play, I wouldn't mind turning things like Hell and Hell and Must Style into accessories rather than full difficulties - like, let's say they'd essentially give you enormous red orb multipliers at the end for playing with a handicap but wouldn't be standalone difficulties with their own grading (feel free to disagree with me on this). Likewise, I wouldn't mind turning the Super (character) stuff into an accessory (like how Bayonetta handles it) rather than a specific costume.
But as far as the more important in-game action systems are concerned:
1) I think Nero could obviously use some more weapons and maybe some different Devil Bringers from different demon bosses; especially if DMC5 resurrects Vergil, they'll likely need to make it so Nero can no longer use Vergil's spirit for his DT (assuming that's what's happening in DMC4). And fer chrissakes give the boy a shotgun.
2) DMC4 Dante's obviously got an amazing level of depth but (outside of a few Gilgamesh moves) lacks a good feeling of impact with many of his moves, and also has a bit of an accessibility problem with regard to inputs - I'd like to see his basic non-Style inputs streamlined to be capable of more (Dahbomb's talked about this plenty as well - the 'shoot' button should get directional-input moves, for example), which would then free Style moves up to feel a bit more like supermoves. He should definitely get a bunch of great legacy weapons from previous games, too.
3) DMC4SE Vergil's amazingly well-polished and feels like a perfectly realized character - already totally happy with him from a design and mechanics and accessibility point of view. In my dreams the summoned swords could get sped up and enhanced enough so you could basically juggle and torment a sandbag enemy from a distance without lifting a finger, I suppose, but they're already kinda OP, heh. If anything, it'd probably be a good thing to tone Concentration down a little bit so it requires more work to build it up.
4) Trish and Lady feel, at this point, like sketches of ideas for the future rather than full-blown characters - fortunately, as far as inputs are concerned, they have tons of room to grow. I'd love to see them fleshed out but also really given their own identities; for Trish, I think, that means an even stronger emphasis on her 'traps' gameplay and perhaps more dramatic transformations of the Sparda weapon (and probably a secondary gun that isn't just Pandora). Maybe that means giving her an arsenal to choose from, but I might prefer different stances you can pick for her, each with fairly different movesets outside of the basic bread and butter. In terms of a subsystem geared toward the most advanced players, I think that might work well for her (likely using the dpad for switching between them). Also, giving Trish something slightly other than Devil Trigger would work well IMO; it'd be fun to (for example) only let her leave electrified trails (as in her DMC4 Killer Bee) when in a special electrified state but have *every* move do it. I bet you could craft some absolutely ridiculous combos that way (and it'd encourage advanced players to switch it on and off selectively for single moves all the time)
5) As for Lady, I think she's far more well-differentiated than Trish but also much less promising (in her current state) and a source of much bigger balance problems. I don't mind her being rooted to the spot when charging Kalina Ann (though *even then* its third-level charge is comically overpowered, especially in terms of Style gain where it practically feels like a cheat button), but in general I think the best possible design for Lady is an extremely high-mobility one where she's forced to be near to enemies in order to do REAL damage (keeping her at a distance feels like it breaks all of the DMC enemy designs) but where she's easily the very very best evasive character and can basically dance around enemies practically untouched while firing guns at them the whole time (but she should be forced to get right into the fray in order to succeed). I think her grenades supermove is comparatively lame too, by the way, and giving Lady something to do with DT gain or whatever needs rethinking from the ground up. Maybe it'd be fun to have her DT basically make her guns fully-charged all the time or something like that; I dunno.
I'm thirsty for a reveal too but I generally don't mind that Capcom's trying to hold their cards close to their chest until games are close to release and think that's a lot better than announcing a game and then having fans wait another two years for it (often with long gaps between any PR about it).
HOWEVER, I'd love to see the sort of collaboration with fans that led to DMC3 being as polished as it is, and it's hard to do that sort of thing late in development.
direct_quote
Member
It's been too long Itsuno, just reveal that shit at TGS...
CrimsonCrescendo
Banned
I'm just getting so frustrated because this didn't need to happen. If they were going to reboot, then they shouldn't have chicken shitted out on a DmC 2 when SURPRISE: You actually have to rebuild your audience when you make such a drastic departure. That, or they should have announced even a teaser of Devil May Cry 5 last E3 when hype was at an all time high. But apparently they didn't get on production for another 7 months if rumors of its production are even true. I understand why DmC happened, but Capcom's handling of everything surrounding Devil May Cry as a franchise for the past six years has been extremely lacking.
badcrumble
Member
I mean, understanding the DMC4SE additions as being partly about subsidizing the development (and giving broad player-testing) of some new mechanics intended to be more thoroughly debuted in DMC5 makes the most sense to me - but yeah, there are two ways to read that: that the development of DMC4SE *was* part of the development of DMC5, or that they waited until DMC4SE was done to even start working on DMC5. It's a matter of perspective, I suppose.
Sure shows that Itsuno's still got it, though.
CrimsonCrescendo
Banned
Bah, I'm just venting. You're right that DMC 4 SE shows Itsuno's still got it.
Son Of Sparda
Member
While those are some nice additions and improvements but I was thinking of bigger changes. Things that other games in the genre haven't done before. Accessories and stuff like that while are new to the series aren't really unprecedented in the genre. Don't get me wrong I would definitely welcome them but I don't think they'll change the series in the same way that DMC3 changed it after DMC2.
Let me give you guys an example on how big of a change I'm thinking for DMC5. Now, I haven't really thought this through and I'm just trying to give you an idea on the scale of changes, so bear with me if it doesn't make much sense or seem too appealing.
I'm sure most of you guys have played Dragons Dogma and experienced the amazing battles that occur in some situations. You know how you find yourself fighting some crazy big enemy and you start climbing it and fight with it at the same time try to stab it in the eye while holding on to it, etc, etc. And sometimes when you are fighting flying enemies they take off and you are fighting them in the air trying to put them down while holding for your life, etc.
Now, let's say for DMC5 they take that system and carve something really crazy and fitting for the genre out of it. Like, having big enemies that you can climb and then have other smaller enemies that do the same and you are all fighting on the back of this big enemy. And while you are in this situation the game gives you completely new combos and tools to combo on the smaller enemies stylishly. Now, while you are fighting with smaller ones, the big enemy that you are using as your fighting ground/wall actually reacts dynamically to you and other enemies attacks and such.
They can even use that system to give you more options in arial battles against smaller enemies. Remember how DMC3 Dante jumped on and around the flying red creatures in that one cutscene? Well they might be able to recreate that as a dynamic battle with this new system.
As I said, this just came to mind and I haven't really thought about it before but seemed like a good way to show how big of a change I wanna see with DMC5.
Actually, I came up with another idea just now. How about a way for us to control the demons for a short amount of time and use them to attack and set up combos? Like having a new character with an ability to mind control an enemy for a short time if/when we stun him mid-combo. Then you can use it like how you use doppelganger in DmC (with delay and different set of attacks and all that) to create amazing set ups for combos and even use the enemies to finish up your combo for you in a crazy stylish manner.
I want to see these kind of crazy innovative systems/changes in DMC5. I want them to make something so amazing that I didn't even know I wanted/was possible before I tried it (like styles in DMC3).
We can probably extrapolate some stuff about DMC5 from 4SE.
*More aerial moves or moves with aerial counterparts. Both Stinger and Lunar are doable in the air. Fair to say that DMC5 will be more focused on aerial combat.
*More cancelable properties on moves or extended follow ups. Stuff like going into Rising Star from Rapid Slash which is a continuation of getting Million Stab from Stinger.
*More types of evasion. In DT Vergil gets a teleport dash, Lady gets grenade throws from her evasion. Even DmC has more evasion stuff.
*All options available at once. This has been true about DMC since DMC4 and it's something that Itsuno seems to prefer. This was present in SE and DmC too. That means we might not see DMC3 type load outs.
*Faster move acquisition and faster mobility. Seems like with SE they realized that people don't like grinding to buy moves and they want to get from point A to point B fast.
*There will be DLC and microtransactions. Sad state of affairs but expect it. They had no reason to put microtransactions in 4SE but they did anyway.
*This is probably a stretch and I hope it isn't true but it seems like more focus will be on making encounters against larger amount of enemies as opposed to going against fewer but deadlier enemies. Every character in SE seemed extremely well equipped to handle s large amount of enemies (same for DMC actually), more so than Dante and Nero in the past.
*Same guy who did the direction for 3 and 4 cutscenes will be in for 5. Seems like a waste of money to bring him in just for SE... they clearly want him back for the big one.
*There will be Japanese VA for DMC5. Makes sense and honestly it's surprising it has taken until 4SE for it to happen. Lady's VA changed for SE so I think her old VA isn't coming back.
Beyond that it's harder to predict. I feel like UE4 and 60 FPS are safe bets too. Stuff like level design, camera control, movement, mechanics and non combat sections are impossible to predict because those things weren't changed for 4SE.
*More aerial moves or moves with aerial counterparts. Both Stinger and Lunar are doable in the air. Fair to say that DMC5 will be more focused on aerial combat.
*More cancelable properties on moves or extended follow ups. Stuff like going into Rising Star from Rapid Slash which is a continuation of getting Million Stab from Stinger.
*More types of evasion. In DT Vergil gets a teleport dash, Lady gets grenade throws from her evasion. Even DmC has more evasion stuff.
*All options available at once. This has been true about DMC since DMC4 and it's something that Itsuno seems to prefer. This was present in SE and DmC too. That means we might not see DMC3 type load outs.
*Faster move acquisition and faster mobility. Seems like with SE they realized that people don't like grinding to buy moves and they want to get from point A to point B fast.
*There will be DLC and microtransactions. Sad state of affairs but expect it. They had no reason to put microtransactions in 4SE but they did anyway.
*This is probably a stretch and I hope it isn't true but it seems like more focus will be on making encounters against larger amount of enemies as opposed to going against fewer but deadlier enemies. Every character in SE seemed extremely well equipped to handle s large amount of enemies (same for DMC actually), more so than Dante and Nero in the past.
*Same guy who did the direction for 3 and 4 cutscenes will be in for 5. Seems like a waste of money to bring him in just for SE... they clearly want him back for the big one.
*There will be Japanese VA for DMC5. Makes sense and honestly it's surprising it has taken until 4SE for it to happen. Lady's VA changed for SE so I think her old VA isn't coming back.
Beyond that it's harder to predict. I feel like UE4 and 60 FPS are safe bets too. Stuff like level design, camera control, movement, mechanics and non combat sections are impossible to predict because those things weren't changed for 4SE.
^ we're looking at probably more button combination moves too, if DMC4SE is any indication. Stuff activating with two button presses at the same time. It was present on a limited basis with Nero, but they went all out with the new characters. I'm not too keen on it personally.
badcrumble
Member
I'm alright with it to the extent that it feels sort of like a super/meter-depleting move. Or, at any rate, I prefer it to the back-and-forward directional inputs.
Up to a year ago, I might have put stock in UE4 being the next place for DMC. But considering the most recent Basara releases have both been on MT Framework, and Capcom's "cost-effectiveness" being only more stated than ever? I could definitely see Itsuno and crew working with MT again, to save time and money (and possibly re-use some assets where appropriate).
At the least, we already know the game engine can push 60fps reliably, and they already have plenty of experience with it.
Since we're talking about making DMC more accessible
I was thinking...
do you think they should find a way to make players "try" at least to taunt? You know, like HAVE FUN!
because most people completely ignore this awesome feature in many character action games
I mean sure, we don't want them forcing it down our throats like how some "other" games tried to force weapon switching on us by making certain enemies only susceptible to certain weapon types
but still, I think they should add some sort of tutorial or something that shows people "hey! stop being lame and taunt because it's cool and you should do it!" or something...
I was thinking...
do you think they should find a way to make players "try" at least to taunt? You know, like HAVE FUN!
because most people completely ignore this awesome feature in many character action games
I mean sure, we don't want them forcing it down our throats like how some "other" games tried to force weapon switching on us by making certain enemies only susceptible to certain weapon types
but still, I think they should add some sort of tutorial or something that shows people "hey! stop being lame and taunt because it's cool and you should do it!" or something...
They've already kind of done that by having taunts give you DT. Some taunts also have unique properties, moreso in DMC4SE where we've seen Lady's crouch low profile attacks, Trish's kiss launch, and Vergil's spinning summon sword juggle.
I'm definitely on board with more things like that. Unique taunts that can be incorporated mid combo in some way.
Son Of Sparda
Member
I don't know man. MT Framework went from being one of the most clean and best looking engines early last gen with DMC4 and RE5, to having messy, chaotic and in some cases just down right ugly visuals with RE6, Dragon's Dogma and RE:R2.
Engine definitely scales very good between supporting multiple kind of games on multiple platforms but I think it's reaching its limits visual wise. I mean even look at DMC4SE, Vergil who is the only character that they had to design from ground up with MT Framework arguably looks the least detailed character between the 5 mains, when it comes to modeling and such. (this is very apparent in his intro cutscene)
Capcom didn't even use MT for Umbrella Corps which was a budget title and instead decided to work with Unity. It just seems like that MT is finally running out of fuel and can't be used efficiently to make current gen only titles.
So, unless DMC5 is supposed to be a cross gen game when it releases sometimes in 2018-2019,
(it's kinda terrifying that I can see a very small chance of Capcom actually trying to do something like that)
Kaleinc
Banned
And the point is? The character which was done on MT F in 2016 is less detailed than characters done on MT F in 2008? Atrocious performance is probaly engine's fault too and not a cheap low effort outsorced porting job. On mission 6 LDK now and boy this shit is crazy - probaly 1/3 speed = sub 20 fps in angelo nests. Used to be 300+ in regular modes and at least 100+ fps LDK.
That's why I said it's a cool feature
But the problem is, your average joe would never ever touch it during their first (and only) playthrough
I'd like to see them at least try to show those people that taunting is the best!
Son Of Sparda
Member
Point is that I don't think they can use MT to get better visuals (that are needed for a current gen only game releasing in two or three years) when they can't even give us a good model of a new character on it, in a 7 years old title. But if you wanna put that on Access Games being lazy, then feel free to look at other internal Capcom titles that I've listed like RE6 or Dragon's Dogma.
As I've said before, if they could have used MT to get the visuals (and performance) that they wanted in a current gen only title, then they would have used it in Umbrella Corps instead of going for Unity.
badcrumble
Member
Yeah, Bayo's taunts (which basically make enemies more aggressive and more resistant to stun/damage, but make them give you more combo points for killing them) work really well, IMO. It's not far off in concept from the difficulty modifier you get in DMC when enemies DT on DMD difficulty but it's more expressly linked to driving your score up higher.
MGR'S Sam is actually a good example of this. Taunt enraged enemies, boosting their attack, aggressiveness, and made them do chip damage/knockback. At the same time, Sam's damage was amplified and it was the quickest way to dispatch enemies. In some instances, taunting was almost a requirement, such as against Armstrong on harder difficulties. I'd love to see a dedicated mode similar to that type of mechanic (or character) in DMC.
My main concern with double button inputs that it made for strange cancel windows and input buffers. The double button press is strict by design, possibly so as to not get in the way of almost plink speed button sequences, but I think it just needs to be cleaned up a bit.
badcrumble
Member
Yeah, especially if there are enemies that err on the side of defense until they're taunted - for example, Soul Eaters, Dullahans, and Fallen in DMC3 would be less annoying if taunting was one way to get them to let their defenses down.
Yeah, that's true. I think of all of the characters in DMC4SE, nobody fully uses the total possibility of the control scheme (even Dante doesn't have directional-input moves for the Shoot button) so it might be a mistake to start introducing double-button inputs instead of making the controls 'denser' first.
True. I would love to see this mechanic used to its fullest extent. At least when I get my ass kicked, I wanna do it in style.
AgentLampshade
Member
Nero has a rev taunt too, it just adds basically nothing. Would be cool for a one-gauge-replenishing taunt.
darkslayer101
Member
I feel like we should be hearing rumors or teases by now or this week... TGS is kinda close
YES! we need more of that
I think the average players will be encouraged to taunt if the game told them they can do more damage after taunting
double button input for regularly used moves fucking sucks, for real
it's a huge pain in the ass to use for trish, nevermind dante's quick drive
direction + hold shoot is kinda fine on a simpler char but for someone like dmc4 dante that's got an insane amount of stuff he can do i don't think it's even remotely viable. i'm sure it's actually the entire reason why trish doesn't have charge shots in the first place- you have to choose one or the other and charge shots ultimately provide a lot more interesting potential since you've got the style button for dedicated moves (or stuff like pandora, which doesn't charge at all)
in regards to taunting having a massive gameplay effect.. i feel like it loses some of it's 'coolness' if it does- stuff like vergil's or trish's are fine because they're for style but once it becomes a gameplay mechanic that you basically always use the act of taunting becomes rote. that it builds DT and style i think is already good enough- the DT bonus is pretty massive and generally the taunt's inaction causes enemies to begin attacking you anyhow. the style meter aspect doesn't really matter that much in 4 because of how easy it is to build and hold s ranks but in dmc3 taunting is a pretty big part of it there- a simple re-examination of the system they want would go a long way to make taunts 'better' again
on a dumber subject, i ended up watching some recordings from that pachinko game and man they came up with a lot of original material for that shit that will probably never be seen in it's full cutscene due to the whole pachinko slicing up cutscenes shit
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aa3bR2a9y-U#t=2m48s
it's a huge pain in the ass to use for trish, nevermind dante's quick drive
direction + hold shoot is kinda fine on a simpler char but for someone like dmc4 dante that's got an insane amount of stuff he can do i don't think it's even remotely viable. i'm sure it's actually the entire reason why trish doesn't have charge shots in the first place- you have to choose one or the other and charge shots ultimately provide a lot more interesting potential since you've got the style button for dedicated moves (or stuff like pandora, which doesn't charge at all)
in regards to taunting having a massive gameplay effect.. i feel like it loses some of it's 'coolness' if it does- stuff like vergil's or trish's are fine because they're for style but once it becomes a gameplay mechanic that you basically always use the act of taunting becomes rote. that it builds DT and style i think is already good enough- the DT bonus is pretty massive and generally the taunt's inaction causes enemies to begin attacking you anyhow. the style meter aspect doesn't really matter that much in 4 because of how easy it is to build and hold s ranks but in dmc3 taunting is a pretty big part of it there- a simple re-examination of the system they want would go a long way to make taunts 'better' again
on a dumber subject, i ended up watching some recordings from that pachinko game and man they came up with a lot of original material for that shit that will probably never be seen in it's full cutscene due to the whole pachinko slicing up cutscenes shit
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aa3bR2a9y-U#t=2m48s
badcrumble
Member
I just think that something like e.g. Shotgun Stinger should be a standard move with the gun (as it was in DmC) without even needing to switch to Gunslinger style.
As far as Ebony and Ivory are concerned, Rainstorm/Twosome Time might feel a little bit trickier with regular directional inputs, but if you look at DMC3's Gunslinger movesets with the Shotgun, Artemis, and Spiral, all of them could technically be done just with directional inputs on the regular shoot button - really, the only gun I can think of with a moveset too big for that is Pandora.
I'm a big fan of a lot of what DmC did with guns, by the way - Kablooey's a fun take on the basic concept of DMC4's Lucifer (and I think I prefer the overall idea as a gun rather than as a Devil Arm, though outside of a much easier detonation Kablooey offers fewer options as it's implemented in that game), and adding Ricoshot as the way E&I charged shots work is *much* more fun than their implementation in DMC3 or 4 and much better than having an entire dedicated gun for that mechanic (i.e. Stinger).
direct_quote
Member
Yah don't get your hopes up. I remember DmC already being rumored at this point before its TGS reveal..
Son Of Sparda
Member
There was even a rumor about NT being the developer....... and no one believed it.
I remember that thread. What a disaster.