DMC is a top 5 Capcom franchise right now (based on brand and sales per release). About time Capcom started doing it justice.
Like it's Resident Evil, Monster Hunter, Street Fighter.... MAYBE Dead Rising before DMC. But DMC is squarely in the top 5 for Capcom and it's getting no where the support of the other 4. Though I guess DMC has had more games than DR. It's just too bad that zombies are in and stylish action games are out at the moment.
Oh, I don't disagree. I've been wondering where the PS4/XB1 re-releases of the DMC HD Trilogy are, because I'd love to be able to fully retire my PS3, at this point. (And hopefully be able to transfer my saves over.)
It's just that I think it goes without saying the whole "New Coke" episode that DmC bought to the table, what with the splintering of a fanbase, along with even outright insulting of established fans by Capcom and different media outlets, has likely forced current Capcom to be much more...diligent with their future plans with the brand and how they want to reintroduce "Devil May Cry Classic", with Itsuno's Dante and pals.
But I do think that whenever they are ready to start the marketing onslaught, it's going to be a big one that Capcom will likely pimp out everywhere they can. At the very least, I can't help but notice that such things like the obligatory DMC collab for MonHun Generations hasn't been announced yet, even though all the assets from MH4U are already done and would likely require minimal work to port over to the sequel. Ditto how the recent BASARA release didn't get any NEW DMC outfits (they just recycled all of the collab outfits from SB4).
There's gotta be a logical explanation over why everything's been so quiet, and I think it's for a good reason.
There aren't new collaborations because they probably want the DMC5 designs in for the cross promotion and of course they can't show off the new designs before DMC5 is even unveiled. Every DMC game has redesigned characters so we will have a new Dante/Nero/Vergil look. Only character that has not changed is Trish and honestly even she can use some changes by now.
Oh, I don't disagree. I've been wondering where the PS4/XB1 re-releases of the DMC HD Trilogy are, because I'd love to be able to fully retire my PS3, at this point. (And hopefully be able to transfer my saves over.)
It's just that I think it goes without saying the whole "New Coke" episode that DmC bought to the table, what with the splintering of a fanbase, along with even outright insulting of established fans by Capcom and different media outlets, has likely forced current Capcom to be much more...diligent with their future plans with the brand and how they want to reintroduce "Devil May Cry Classic", with Itsuno's Dante and pals.
But I do think that whenever they are ready to start the marketing onslaught, it's going to be a big one that Capcom will likely pimp out everywhere they can. At the very least, I can't help but notice that such things like the obligatory DMC collab for MonHun Generations hasn't been announced yet, even though all the assets from MH4U are already done and would likely require minimal work to port over to the sequel. Ditto how the recent BASARA release didn't get any NEW DMC outfits (they just recycled all of the collab outfits from SB4).
There's gotta be a logical explanation over why everything's been so quiet, and I think it's for a good reason.
I understand that but that's exactly why I don't agree with Capcom's current strategy. The way that they've hang us out to dry with no news or confirmation whatsoever is anything but diligent.
At least give a simple confirmation that you're working on the next mainline game and clarify what universe it takes place in before asking us to wait for another year or two (on top of the 8 years that we've already waited) until you are ready to show us the game.
Right now, it feels like Capcom is ignoring us which is really annoying/frustrating.
There aren't new collaborations because they probably want the DMC5 designs in for the cross promotion and of course they can't show off the new designs before DMC5 is even unveiled. Every DMC game has redesigned characters so we will have a new Dante/Nero/Vergil look. Only character that has not changed is Trish and honestly even she can use some changes by now.
I understand that but that's exactly why I don't agree with Capcom's current strategy. The way that they've hang us out to dry with no news or confirmation whatsoever is anything but diligent.
Sure it is. It's creating a frothing need and demand among a fanbase that's just eager to see more, such that when we get just a faint whisper that's something's going to happen, people will fall in line (and over themselves) to see what's next.
The one thing that Sesha and I do agree on, if that's exactly what Capcom seeks to do in a situation like this, is that it would allow Capcom to control the narrative of how the game was presented, from start to finish. Not let hype get out of control and then, of course, the game couldn't hope to live up to every single expectation, no matter what.
I understand that but that's exactly why I don't agree with Capcom's current strategy. The way that they've hang us out to dry with no news or confirmation whatsoever is anything but diligent.
At least give a simple confirmation that you're working on the next mainline game and clarify what universe it takes place in before asking us to wait for another year or two (on top of the 8 years that we've already waited) until you are ready to show us the game.
Right now, it feels like Capcom is ignoring us which is really annoying/frustrating.
It's pretty obvious that the game they're working on takes place in the OG universe especially with Nero's voice actor speaking about it not too long ago. We're all just anxious to see it because it has been a real long time since we've had a new game.
Shit I'll take a TGS 2005 DMC4 trailer right now with Dante beating up the camera, but they're probably planning a big reveal for the game and it maybe for the better. It's better that DMC5 gets announced when Capcom can give it all the attention it deserves than reveal it early, but have all the focus be on RE7. Can't remember a time when a DMC game got so much attention from people outside of the reboot.
Well the reason why I brought this up is because looking at the RE7 reveal, I honestly think Capcom had good intentions taking inspiration from first person horror games as right now they're pretty popular and well received, but it's not quite what people expect of RE.
So what's the very popular and well received game in the action genre now? Dark Souls. Soul-like, Soul-genre, Soul-clone. There is a real that Capcom might try to model DMC after a Souls game to generate more interest. Heck I think people were talking about it a while ago but that's only regarding level design.
DMC4's unveiling wasn't that long ago, right? Or at least, I certainly remember the times that were had when the "betrayalton" happened and the series went cross-platform for the first time.
Well the reason why I brought this up is because looking at the RE7 reveal, I honestly think Capcom had good intentions taking inspiration from first person horror games as right now they're pretty popular and well received, but it's not quite what people expect of RE.
So what's the very popular and well received game in the action genre now? Dark Souls. Soul-like, Soul-genre, Soul-clone. There is a real that Capcom might try to model DMC after a Souls game to generate more interest. Heck I think people were talking about it a while ago but that's only regarding level design.
Yeah, we talked about this over the last page or so. How perhaps some "Souls/Nioh/etc."-isms could find a place into DMC, from things ranging from the overall art direction, to a few more mild RPG aspects.
Bottomline seems to be that most of us agree that stamina bars, weapon degradation and DPS stats crunching wouldn't be things that'd fit into DMC all that well. But even I think that an Itsuno, coming relatively fresh off of his D&D fantasies in Dragon's Dogma, won't settle for a DMC game that's by the numbers. He may yet shock us all and somehow get it to work...
Sure it is. It's creating a frothing need and demand among a fanbase that's just eager to see more, such that when we get just a faint whisper that's something's going to happen, people will fall in line (and over themselves) to see what's next.
The one thing that Sesha and I do agree on, if that's exactly what Capcom seeks to do in a situation like this, is that it would allow Capcom to control the narrative of how the game was presented, from start to finish. Not let hype get out of control and then, of course, the game couldn't hope to live up to every single expectation, no matter what.
I respectfully disagree. The need and demand is and has been there for a long time now and it's actually starting to turn into frustration.
(you can already see that in the gaming side)
Capcom is not doing series any favor but staying absolutely silent about it. As I've said it before, it only makes them look ignorant which is definitely not a good look.
I also don't think simply confirming the title and a few things about it would make the hype grow out of hand. Again, let's take a look at REmake 2 as an example.
Simply acknowledging the game's existence will still allow them to have complete control over how they finally announce and release it while they avoid frustration and ill will of their fanbase. This way, fans also won't be able to hype the game up and have ridiculous expectations cause simply there isn't anything to hype other than a confirmation of its existence that is meant to put their minds at ease.
Also let's be honest, no game can meet every single expectations anyway. Especially when it comes to titles like this that have had people waiting for them for a very very long time.
It's pretty obvious that the game they're working on takes place in the OG universe especially with Nero's voice actor speaking about it not too long ago. We're all just anxious to see it because it has been a real long time since we've had a new game.
Shit I'll take a TGS 2005 DMC4 trailer right now with Dante beating up the camera, but they're probably planning a big reveal for the game and it maybe for the better. It's better that DMC5 gets announced when Capcom can give it all the attention it deserves than reveal it early, but have all the focus be on RE7. Can't remember a time when a DMC game got so much attention from people outside of the reboot.
It might seem obvious to us how follow every single piece of news but can the same be said about casual DMC fans? Also, can we really, with 100% certainty, say that the next one will be the continuation of OG series? I think the only evidence of that were the Reuben rumor that he heard from a guy who knew a guy who new another guy in Capcom, and Verendus saying that there will be a new DMC game. (that was around one and half year ago btw)
I would definitely love for DMC to get a big announcement and then have Capcom's full attention on marketing side but I don't think the latter will ever happen. As long as RE is the bigger series (which most likely means forever) then DMC will always get second rate treatment when it comes to marketing and stuff like that. RE series is so huge that no matter when they announce the next DMC there will always be some RE game that either has already been announced or will get announced before DMC comes out. And the moment that happens Capcom will shift most of its marketing attention towards that game.
Right now, it's RE7. After that it'll be REmake 2. Then we'll most likely have Revelations 3 and so on and so forth.
Yeah, we talked about this over the last page or so. How perhaps some "Souls/Nioh/etc."-isms could find a place into DMC, from things ranging from the overall art direction, to a few more mild RPG aspects.
Bottomline seems to be that most of us agree that stamina bars, weapon degradation and DPS stats crunching wouldn't be things that'd fit into DMC all that well. But even I think that an Itsuno, coming relatively fresh off of his D&D fantasies in Dragon's Dogma, won't settle for a DMC game that's by the numbers. He may yet shock us all and somehow get it to work...
Ah shit I just checked the last page, I see you all have covered this topic already lol.
The Nioh demo was great, a true hybrid of Character Action and Souls genre, lots of people including myself see it as a legitimate fresh take and improvement of the Souls formula. That said I think we can all agree that if that game was called "Ninja Gaiden 4", the response would not be so well received. It is a great Souls game, but not a NG game.
Is there a fix for this yet for Windows 10 users who are unable to even start this game? It's been an issue since December 2015 and it still hasn't been fixed.
I didn't follow DMC4's marketing very closely so I can't talk about that but DmC definitely didn't get Capcom's best marketing that it could.
It was never shown in any big conferences, not even a 30 seconds teaser. It actually completely skipped few of the big gaming events like GamesCom and E3 a couple of times. And when it was there it didn't have any big presence like having billboards and stuff that most other big games have at E3. It wasn't on any VGA or gaming award shows. They didn't do any events specifically for title like they do for SF and RE. They didn't had any PS3 or Xbox 360 bundles for the game, etc etc.
The most remarkable thing about its marketing was that CGI trailer (which was only shown in few selected theaters) and one or two pole dancers that they had in one of their booths. (and that neo-Dante being in PS:ASBR, though that was Sony, not Capcom and the director actually wanted the old Dante to begin with)
Now compare that to RE6 and how they marketed that game. They had the whole No Hope Left campaign around the world just to hype its announcement. Afterwards they made sure to do playable demos and trailers inside of big conferences like Sony and Microsoft's. They included an early exclusive demo of the game with Dragon's Dogma. The game had many different collector's edition (DmC only had like one, I think) and 2 different PS3 bundles. They had special events for it, they even opened up entire restaurants themed after the game across few cities in Japan. And while DmC got a CGI trailer, RE got an actual CGI movie.
RE6 got the best marketing push Capcom could offer at the time while DmC's marketing felt second rate. Now, I do understand that RE is much bigger than DMC so I don't expect them to open up an entire restaurant for DMC or do 2 hours CGIs (which they canceled the one they wanted to do for DmC) but still they should have at least done stuff like live demos in big conferences and console bundles for the game.
Recently beat this on the PS4 as Virgil. Had some misgivings at first because I loved how he played in DMC3SE. Eventually I got use to all the changes and really enjoyed teleporting to wherever his sword goes.
Loved plaything through the game again, but it reminded me of DMC4's greatest weakness. The repetitive nature of the missions. It's only made more evident using Virgil through all the missions. At least a play through with the other two modes changes your character from Nero to Dante, and from Lady to Trish.
While on the topic of Lady and Trish, I found Lady's gun like a stupidly overpowered version of Gunslinger. Trish really focused on controlling crowds and dealing tons of damage with simple combos. I'm guessing they were after thoughts when compared to Virgil, who was clearly the focus.
Gonna Google Lady/Trish Combo videos, if there are any.
I guess I'm going off of the amount of attention most people on the web paid attention to it. If DMC5 came immediately after 4 there wouldn't have been a big buzz around it especially after 4's backtracking issues. DmC got announced and I swear it received the most attention from the public out of all the DMCs for the wrong reasons lol.
I mean yeah DMC's marketing campaign has never compared to RE. The sales and budget don't compare either though I guess one can argue that it's a vicious cycle (not enough budget/marketing is put into DMC, it doesn't make as much sales which means less budget for next game).
In the end DMC gets marketed as much as it should. People who want to get the next DMC will get it if they are compelled to do so. Them airing a DMC commercial during Super Bowl isn't really going to change much and frankly that's a ton of money wasted that could be used to make a better game instead.
In this day and age word of mouth and internet hype spreads fast. If DMC5 is a god tier game then information will spread and it will do well.
DMC4 had PS3/360 bundles too:
And DMC got an anime right around DMC4's release plus the novel releases.
DMC3 was the least marketed DMC game. Like the difference between DMC3 and DMC4 marketing was staggering. I don't remember anything notable about DMC3's marketing. Hell DMC2 was marketed WAY heavier than DMC3. The best DMC3 got was a live action-ish commercial which DMC2 got also and was flashier:
I know the series isn't as big as RE but still DmC definitely could have gotten better marketing. At least the bare minimum for the series should be doing stuff like showing it in some big conferences and have better presence at gaming related events.
Though, going by that DMC4 bundle picture (and the anime,
even though it was pretty crappy IMO
) it seems that Capcom had better marketing for the series at some point which honestly makes the whole marketing direction for DmC even more head scratching. They wanted to attract new western audiences in order to achieve God of War like kind of sells, and yet decided to market the game less than DMC4? How is that supposed to work Capcom?
I also think the impact from word of mouth varies from title to title. In some cases like Persona, the word of mouth sure did wonders (I myself gave Persona 4 a shot solely because of good things that I heard about it). But at the same time we have stuff like Yakuza that gets tons praises from almost everyone, yet they do absolutely horrible when it comes to sales. Word of mouth can help a series if there is good marketing and exposure to get people's attention, alongside it. Yeah, I gave Persona 4 a shot because of good things I heard about it, but my first exposure to the series was seeing it in anime lists and hearing about Persona 4 Arena.
In short, you can't really do a half-assed marketing and expect your game to sell just based on word of mouth alone. You need to give it more exposure, get the attention of and bring in people from inside and outside of its genre, who might have not heard or really knew much about your game. Get their attention through efficient marketing and then release a good game and let the word of mouth help you sell it. (although you still need to do some post launch marketing and support, but you get the point)
DmC had plenty of marketing. Interviews, demos and exhibitions at every tradeshow event, magazine spreads, Youtube ads, a cinematic trailer in theaters... Donte's inclusion in Playstation All Stars Battle Royale. Honestly, that's about as far as Capcom goes with marketing generally anyway. For better or worse, the controversy over the title was about the biggest publicity they could have possibly gotten.
I still remember the giant Donte booth stand at NYCC. And it's website had that whole Raptor News Network thing.
I wouldn't call the RE movie as advertising for RE6. It just all falls within the same franchise. There were even rumblings of a DmC inspired live action movie that never got off the ground. Likely ditched because I feel the negative reception of DmC.
It wasn't working and Capcom decided to switch gears because of the overall negativity, which ultimately sent mixed messages about the title.
Nah, man. I at least remember them messing one or two big gaming events. Like, they had three opportunities to have a trailer at VGAs but were in none of them. (even Castlevania was there) Having interviews and trailers is pretty norm these days and it's the absolute bare minimum that you can do for your game in regards to marketing.
Capcom does special events for SF and RE. Showcases them in big conferences where the game will actually be seen my millions of poeple. And does bundles and lots of other side stuff for them. It seems that they did some of those for DMC4, but with DmC marketing was definitely much smaller.
Maybe it was because of the backlash, but still they should have done better promotion for the game, than begging fans to buy it.
Son Of Sparda;216361384]Nah, man. I at least remember them messing one or two big gaming events. Like, they had three opportunities to have a trailer at VGAs but were in none of them. (even Castlevania was there) Having interviews and trailers is pretty norm these days and it's the absolute bare minimum that you can do for your game in regards to marketing.
Capcom does special events for SF and RE. Showcases them in big conferences where the game will actually be seen my millions of poeple. And does bundles and lots of other side stuff for them. It seems that they did some of those for DMC4, but with DmC marketing was definitely much smaller.
Maybe it was because of the backlash, but still they should have done better promotion for the game, than begging fans to buy it (remember the Porsche and Alex Jones?) after they alienated the fans.
It was still present at those trade shows and had setups/demos showcasing the game and gameplay in general. It absolutely had a marketing presence, even if it's slightly dwarfed by Capcom's single biggest franchise. I think DmC was given a fair shot with plenty of chances. They just fucked up every PR opportunity they had.
Just because it doesn't have a trailer at the VGAs doesn't mean there wasn't marketing for it. It kind of felt like the status quo. The same you'd see for Monster Hunter or Dead Rising, which are both now huge IPs for Capcom as well.
You only need to look up some of Seyavesh's (hiimtab) videos to know there's a lot more to Trish than that. Even Lady's opened up a little at this point.
made a video on the charge carryover and all the stuff i've found with it. it's pretty interesting and makes lady pretty fun as you don't have to wait around charging shit as much
It was still present at those trade shows and had setups/demos showcasing the game and gameplay in general. It absolutely had a marketing presence, even if it's slightly dwarfed by Capcom's single biggest franchise. I think DmC was given a fair shot with plenty of chances. They just fucked up every PR opportunity they had.
Just because it doesn't have a trailer at the VGAs doesn't mean there wasn't marketing for it. It kind of felt like the status quo. The same you'd see for Monster Hunter or Dead Rising, which are both now huge IPs for Capcom as well.
Well I didn't say DmC had no marketing, it certainly did. But it wasn't the main focus of Capcom's marketing.
At any rate, the point is that no matter when they announce next DMC there will always be another RE title which will cast some shadows on the former's marketing. So, whether it's right now or in one or two years, whenever Capcom announces DMC it still won't get all of Capcom's attention in marketing department.
You know guys, originally I was inspired by the Nioh Beta demo to make a thread talking about hypothetical Character Action Souls hybrid games, but after going through this thread I see now that not only can Souls games learn from Character Action, but Character Action can benefit from Souls. The two genres compliment each other well as they both have a few similar goals, as long as they learn the right lessons from each other.
I respectfully disagree. The need and demand is and has been there for a long time now and it's actually starting to turn into frustration.
(you can already see that in the gaming side)
Capcom is not doing series any favor but staying absolutely silent about it. As I've said it before, it only makes them look ignorant which is definitely not a good look.
I also don't think simply confirming the title and a few things about it would make the hype grow out of hand. Again, let's take a look at REmake 2 as an example.
Simply acknowledging the game's existence will still allow them to have complete control over how they finally announce and release it while they avoid frustration and ill will of their fanbase. This way, fans also won't be able to hype the game up and have ridiculous expectations cause simply there isn't anything to hype other than a confirmation of its existence that is meant to put their minds at ease.
Also let's be honest, no game can meet every single expectations anyway. Especially when it comes to titles like this that have had people waiting for them for a very very long time.
Well, yeah and again, we've been talking about this same type of thing before. Yes, it's painful and we can gnash our teeth and froth at the mouth because we haven't had anything new. Hell, I've even argued for the same thing you wish for (re: simple title drop). But hell, if Capcom doesn't see it the same way at this point in time, then really, what else can we do but continue to hold our number and wait?
And to be fair, there is a difference between RE's current standing and DMC's. RE as a franchise, after coming off a divisive RE6, now has a RE7 that people still don't know the full story on, the promise that REmake2 represents and further promises that "Action-Evil" fans will be taken care of, too (and hopefully, not just through Umbrella Corps). As segmented as the RE base is, it at least sounds like Capcom has a clear plan for the brand in store, but only recently has started letting people in with what those plans are.
Compare that to the "New Coke" episode that DMC, as a series, only recently put behind it, and it's a bit of a different show. Itsuno, in no small talk, admitted that the series' destiny was certainly in flux. We could have been stuck with DmC permanently, if the reboot sold exceptionally well. We could have seen the series killed off for good and buried, if sales were abysmal. Only recently have we gotten the hope that Itsuno's Dante and pals will come back, but there's still likely a thing of how to effectively market his Dante, when only a few years ago, Capcom, NT and so many others did or allowed everything in their power to promote the narrative of "Classic!Dante = Bad, New!Dante = Good" to casual fans. And now, they're going to have reverse that process, or at least hope people's memories aren't that long.
As much as I would love nothing better than Sony's opening presser at TGS next week than to have a short thing that had a title drop and Dante posing (and Trish and Lady twerking in the backdrop), I can somewhat understand if Capcom's "Top Men" want to take the time to do things right. Maybe they'll even take a few notes from RE7's current advertising campaign as a way of what to do and what not to do when it comes to promoting their own wares.
But suffice to say, I still remain pretty at ease that even through all this, DMC fans likely will be rewarded with what they want, in time. Compare that with, say, Mega Man fans (especially if you're a fan of a specific series like X, ZX, BN or Legends), and current outlook is not looking nearly as peachy.
You know guys, originally I was inspired by the Nioh Beta demo to make a thread talking about hypothetical Character Action Souls hybrid games, but after going through this thread I see now that not only can Souls games learn from Character Action, but Character Action can benefit from Souls. The two genres compliment each other well as they both have a few similar goals, as long as they learn the right lessons from each other.
Certainly. It's my personal hope that Ni-oh especially helps only do more to promote a style of "Souls" games where it's okay to have deeper, "character action" styled combat, on top of various other Souls and other Action-RPG tropes.
Before Ni-oh even came along, one of the things I hoped Capcom would do was resurrect Onimusha in the form of a Souls/Stylish-Action hybrid, which Ni-oh has done well to realize that at least in part. Assuming the possible rumors of Onimusha's return are true, I'd still like to see if that is at all a possibility for that series as well, and the Koei-Tecmo v. Capcom "conflict" can just continue in another theater of war!
made a video on the charge carryover and all the stuff i've found with it. it's pretty interesting and makes lady pretty fun as you don't have to wait around charging shit as much
I don't know, Trell. I think we just have to agree to disagree on this one, cause I honestly believe that even showing a silhouette of Dante or Vergil in Sony's presser next week would be strategically better than being absolutely silent until E3 2017 or 2018.
In fact if they don't at the very least tease the game next week in some form, then I'll probably go into the "no DMC5 until proven otherwise" mode. That way I won't feel disappointed/frustrated when they keep on not showing it at PSX and other gaming events until they finally do.
I'm fine with a short time from announcement to release (DMC4 took way too long in that regard and it was fairly obvious that they didn't really know what the game would be like when they released the first teaser with weirdly ugly-face Dante).
But, that said, one of the things that made DMC3 so good was that Itsuno worked with hardcore DMC1 fans even on the nitty-gritty mechanics of the game in order to make it as good as possible. You can't do that without announcing that it's coming, and I think it's something the franchise could use very badly right now - arguably DMC3, DMC4, and DmC were *all* reboots to one degree or another so it's clearly something that's still struggling to find its identity to some degree.
Have you all covered the idea of Estus Healing mechanic for DMC? I know the game actively discourage healing but realistically speaking only a handful of us will ever become Immortal Devils.
And also what about the idea of losing all your Red Orbs upon death? Dante doesn't die from fall or any environmental hazards so the only way that would happen is if an enemy kills you. Instead of the usual "Pick up from ground" which would trivialize the whole thing, let the Enemy who killed you absorb the Red Orbs, become slightly powered up, and you have to fight it to get it back.
you are actively penalized for using items in your score and the game is designed around that- they're buffers for skill, not active parts of the game's design in the same sense that estus is. green stars and estus are fundamentally different in their purpose and adding that system to dmc does nothing at all at best while actively making the game worse at worst
losing all red orbs on death is bad because it punishes the player for dying in an arcade-style game with progression..the people who wouldn't need to spend them in the first place would get rewarded with a useless item while the people who do need them would lose them outright
in addition, assuming you're using a dmc1-3 style system where red orbs also function as currency for buying new moves, it actively stifles the player's access to powering up and unlocking more of the gameplay in a genre that is about having those options to. pepole who need the orbs will keep losing them, while people who don't need them would have nothing changed about their approach.
the health system, encounter design and general pacing of combat is radically different between the two games- you have to remember they're totally different genres and have incompatible parts to them because of design goal differences.
edit:
for the same reason why an open world dmc is also nearly impossible to do- the souls series gets away with it by heavily limiting player options so they limit the ability for players to move around the environment, forcing them into effect level/combat pathing- DMC's expanded options in movement and combat let you go buckwild with freedom of stuff- it's how you get creative and fun solutions to their lil 'puzzle' secret missions like: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bJTjdO6W1-g
what dmc needs is refinement and focus, not broad, bland coverage- the design goals of the genre as a whole is built around carefully crafted tightness in pacing and encounters, not sandbox worlds
the sandbox is in the mechanics of the combat system, and that's how it should be
Have you all covered the idea of Estus Healing mechanic for DMC? I know the game actively discourage healing but realistically speaking only a handful of us will ever become Immortal Devils.
And also what about the idea of losing all your Red Orbs upon death? Dante doesn't die from fall or any environmental hazards so the only way that would happen is if an enemy kills you. Instead of the usual "Pick up from ground" which would trivialize the whole thing, let the Enemy who killed you absorb the Red Orbs, become slightly powered up, and you have to fight it to get it back.
The game already actively discourages using of item. There are very few in the game and buying them is expensive.... in fact it's a noob trap. It's a way to make the game easier but it discourages learning the game.
I don't really care if Dante loses currency upon death but I feel it doesn't add much. In DMC3 NA version you lose all progress and started the game from start of mission which was deemed excessive. DMC works fine with the generous checkpoint system, just need to up the challenge. No one likes trekkng through a level they already beat if they die to a boss, it's needless tedium.
Make the game hard, don't make it tedious. I feel like the Souls games are A LOT easier than something like NG but the whole system makes the game harder than it actually is (also how limited your character is).
i just thought about how you would even design a semi-open world game with dmc4 dante's movement options and laughed a bit because of the pandora gunboat probably fucking a bunch of stuff up
pandora gunboat, the worst and best tool
nevermind trish and vergil who both have ways to infinitely gain height while moving forward
Have you all covered the idea of Estus Healing mechanic for DMC? I know the game actively discourage healing but realistically speaking only a handful of us will ever become Immortal Devils.
And also what about the idea of losing all your Red Orbs upon death? Dante doesn't die from fall or any environmental hazards so the only way that would happen is if an enemy kills you. Instead of the usual "Pick up from ground" which would trivialize the whole thing, let the Enemy who killed you absorb the Red Orbs, become slightly powered up, and you have to fight it to get it back.
It just seems kind of superfluous. Estus is mostly a mechanic employed to 1) discourage hoarding of healing items and 2) to keep a reserve during long exploration trips or bosses. Otherwise, I don't see what Estus does for DMC that the existing items don't already accomplish. If newer players want to spend currency on them, the shop has some crutch items.
I don't have any issue with the Red Orb thing, especially if an enemy picks it up, but it's sort of rooted in the death/revive design inherent to Souls that I don't think DMC should employ. Souls is designed around death. You're expected to die, and it's a part of the game design. In DMC, you shouldn't die, and if you do, you shouldn't be allowed to revive or get your stuff back.
Yeah, the crazy movement options both for altitude gain and horizontal movement are one more reason I don't want to see DMC move in a direction that focuses MORE on level design. It's not just that it isn't a strength of the series and never has been (and here I mean level layout, as opposed to the design of individual battle arenas or the environmental art design), it's that the DMC playable character at their best *should* be able to thoroughly break whatever level design does exist.
you are actively penalized for using items in your score and the game is designed around that- they're buffers for skill, not active parts of the game's design in the same sense that estus is. green stars and estus are fundamentally different in their purpose and adding that system to dmc does nothing at all at best while actively making the game worse at worst
losing all red orbs on death is bad because it punishes the player for dying in an arcade-style game with progression..the people who wouldn't need to spend them in the first place would get rewarded with a useless item while the people who do need them would lose them outright
in addition, assuming you're using a dmc1-3 style system where red orbs also function as currency for buying new moves, it actively stifles the player's access to powering up and unlocking more of the gameplay in a genre that is about having those options to. pepole who need the orbs will keep losing them, while people who don't need them would have nothing changed about their approach.
You don't lose all your red orbs upon the first death, the idea of the Souls system is that you'll get one shot at getting it back.
Also the same argument had been made for Souls game before- that bad players would be disproportionately affected by this punishment in progress. But what you're forgetting is that enemies respawn- It's not a zero sum game. And at the very worst they can always grind.
the health system, encounter design and general pacing of combat is radically different between the two games- you have to remember they're totally different genres and have incompatible parts to them because of design goal differences.
I disagree. The finer details about the two games are different but the general goals of both genre are very similar to each other.
Both games are functionally rooms of battle encounters placed one after the other with minimum narrative moments, unlike the stamina system which actually would actively make DMC worse because it affects gameplay in a big way, there is nothing fundamentally incompatible about adopting the health and death system imo.
The red orbs gained during a level from enemy pickups are generally vastly outnumbered by the ones you get as rewards for completing a level (and that's how it should be). It'd be hard to make it feel like it mattered to lose your orbs or get them back, unless you got rid of the score penalty for dying (hell no).
It just seems kind of superfluous. Estus is mostly a mechanic employed to 1) discourage hoarding of healing items and 2) to keep a reserve during long exploration trips or bosses. Otherwise, I don't see what Estus does for DMC that the existing items don't already accomplish. If newer players want to spend currency on them, the shop has some crutch items.
I don't have any issue with the Red Orb thing, especially if an enemy picks it up, but it's sort of rooted in the death/revive design inherent to Souls that I don't think DMC should employ. Souls is designed around death. You're expected to die, and it's a part of the game design. In DMC, you shouldn't die, and if you do, you shouldn't be allowed to revive or get your stuff back.
The red orbs gained during a level from enemy pickups are generally vastly outnumbered by the ones you get as rewards for completing a level (and that's how it should be). It'd be hard to make it feel like it mattered to lose your orbs or get them back, unless you got rid of the score penalty for dying (hell no).
I definitely think you should be able to start the game on DMD right from the start if you want to, but I'm not against the easiest difficulty being very easy because I don't really care one way or the other about it and because I'm not against DMC being reasonably friendly to play-the-story-once gamers (so long as it also gives them good reason to genuinely try their hand at more skilled gameplay and so long as it has a learning curve no matter what). As long as it's balanced around DMD first and foremost I'm good (and if there are harder modes available, optional ultra-tough bosses/encounters, et cetera, that's icing on the cake).
I think the base difficulty should be Son of Sparda, so I'm all for it. And yeah, like badcrumble says, have all the difficulty levels available at the start.
If DMC were to implement a hubworld/map, then you should be able to change difficulty on the fly as you're selecting a mission.
How does it actively make the game worse? It's a healing item, not a buffing item. Healing items have always existed in action games.
Now all this would do is ensure that you'll always have some on hand, whether you need to use it or not is irrelevant.
You don't lose all your red orbs upon the first death, the idea of the Souls system is that you'll get one shot at getting it back.
Also the same argument had been made for Souls game before- that bad players would be disproportionately affected by this punishment in progress. But what you're forgetting is that enemies respawn- It's not a zero sum game. And at the very worst they can always grind.
I disagree. The finer details about the two games are different but the general goals of both genre are very similar to each other.
Both games are functionally rooms of battle encounters placed one after the other with minimum narrative moments, unlike the stamina system which actually would actively make DMC worse because it affects gameplay in a big way, there is nothing fundamentally incompatible about adopting the health and death system imo.
you are ignoring the pacing difference by simplifying it down to "action", effectively- dark souls effectively uses its level design and long haul pacing to create a goal of clearing an area- combat is designed around wearing the players resources down through multiple encounters and limited resources (otherwise you get hoarding as guardian said)
the goal in souls is to create a feeling of exploring and conquering the unknown- kinda like spelunking. sliw, deliberate.
dmc is a short jaunt with high risk encounters- arcade style progression. you are equally expected to make mistakes but the design is about rewarding play so instead of estus and draining resources you get green orbs and white orbs that are rewards for playing and keeping you on a fast pace
