Son Of Sparda
Member
You could say that again.
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Devil May Cry 4 Special Edition |OT| Two girls, one motivated Vergil
- Thread starter Sigmaah
- Start date
You could say that again.
got spurred into updating my vergil recolors alongside adding some new ones.
they change beowulf colors alongside having dmc3 style JCs now.
http://s1.zetaboards.com/InfernalWorks/topic/5868005/1/
they change beowulf colors alongside having dmc3 style JCs now.
http://s1.zetaboards.com/InfernalWorks/topic/5868005/1/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fW2mRxY24y8
Most of the stuff you guys already know but one thing to point is that the guy thinks that in future games if they have a character like Dante with on the fly style switch from the beginning, players should start off with one style and then unlock more slots for it.
So you can choose one style at the start that you can equip at one time (like DMC3). You can upgrade the style and when you have maxed it out you can unlock a new style slot to add. Now you will have styles to swap between on the fly. When you have maxed out the 2nd style, then you add an additional slot and so on.
Seems like a reasonable idea of course and one that could've worked for DMC4 if they had you start with Dante and the game was built around it. It would also allow people to get a taste of on the fly style switching without being overwhelmed with having to play around with 4-5 styles at once plus weapon swapping.
Most of the stuff you guys already know but one thing to point is that the guy thinks that in future games if they have a character like Dante with on the fly style switch from the beginning, players should start off with one style and then unlock more slots for it.
So you can choose one style at the start that you can equip at one time (like DMC3). You can upgrade the style and when you have maxed it out you can unlock a new style slot to add. Now you will have styles to swap between on the fly. When you have maxed out the 2nd style, then you add an additional slot and so on.
Seems like a reasonable idea of course and one that could've worked for DMC4 if they had you start with Dante and the game was built around it. It would also allow people to get a taste of on the fly style switching without being overwhelmed with having to play around with 4-5 styles at once plus weapon swapping.
Son Of Sparda
Member
Man, each time you make one of these mods I feel sad that modding is still not a thing in console scene.
Like always, terrific work Seyavesh. I especially love that green color effect. Looks really cool and easy on eyes.
Like always, terrific work Seyavesh. I especially love that green color effect. Looks really cool and easy on eyes.
Since unfortunately you can't make new threads anymore, I'll make one for it.
Don't make a new thread, I already posted it in the other thread with the Credo boss.
Son Of Sparda
Member
Ah, too late. Already did before seeing this post. And I actually used your post from the other thread.
J_Macgrady
Member
I think that's a good solution because think about it, the only reason why we're having these discussions on how to change the controls is because newcomers aren't familiar with the series. What's a better way of getting newcomers comfortable with DMC than focusing on one style at a time like we all did with DMC3?
Something like a beginner mode that forces players to focus on one style at a time, and whenever you feel like you're ready to try more styles you can come off of that mode.
Because I'm looking at SFV, and even though they made the combat more accessible, it didn't even matter because there weren't any modes that catered to players who wanted a single player experience.
Son Of Sparda
Member
The thing that I agree the most with him is what he says towards the end.
A hypothetical Devil May Cry 5 needs to make DMC3 and DMC4 feel outdated by comparison. Just like how DMC1 felt outdated after DMC3's release. I completely agree with him on that. And I think in order to achieve this, they need to move away from styles and introduce new innovative mechanics and combat features for DMC5.
A hypothetical Devil May Cry 5 needs to make DMC3 and DMC4 feel outdated by comparison. Just like how DMC1 felt outdated after DMC3's release. I completely agree with him on that. And I think in order to achieve this, they need to move away from styles and introduce new innovative mechanics and combat features for DMC5.
90% of what he said in the video I have been saying in this thread for like.. years.
J_Macgrady
Member
I'm not sure that's possible. When it comes to everything surrounding the combat system I agree 100%. Structure of the campaign, training modes, multiplayer, etc needs to be included or changed to make the other games feel outdated.
Combat though? Look at all the DMC3 & DMC4 combo videos. Matter of fact, play the games. Are these games outdated combat wise really? No other action game gives you this many options and different ways to approach combat. That's why I never want to get too theoritical when it comes to changing the way DMC plays because it is great as is. I just want stuff added to what we already have.
Shit I'm having a blast now playing through DMC3SE again and I'm getting my ass kicked on DMD.
Son Of Sparda
Member
I don't know, this thread is only one year old, man.
But joking aside, yeah I know. I've read your posts (I mean all of you guys, not just you Dahbomb) over the past few years. Even before I joined Gaf.
But the thing is, that the consensus always seems to be that they should give Dante new styles and weapons and just refine the overall experience of DMC4. Even your control schemes (you've had a few over the years) have style buttons and show how they could make them more accessible. While, I think they need to move past that completely.
I don't know what exactly I want, I'll be honest I have no idea. But I do know what I don't want and that's another DMC game that is just the extension of core systems that they introduced in DMC3 and DMC4. Styles were really great and innovative in DMC3 and they reached their full potential in DMC4. Now, it's time to do something new.
I agree with you DMC3 and DMC4 do play great. I don't think anyone disagrees with that, otherwise we wouldn't have been here talking about them right now. But I believe that it's time for them to do something new. Like they did with DMC3.
Sure if they add new weapons and styles to the next title, the game would still play great. But to me that would feel more like a DMC4.5 than a true DMC5. The underlying combat mechanics of DMC3 and DMC4 are amazing, but we've been playing the games that have been built upon these foundations for more than a decade now. DMC5 needs to change that and introduce truly innovative base mechanics to the combat.
Well they can do whatever, as long as it pushes the game to the next level. Styles are just avenues to give Dante more moves and options, you don't actually need styles if you can provide those moves. I just put up control schemes to show that they are better ways to do it, not that you need to adhere stringently to a style system in particular.
A system that greatly expands on the Nero's core set could be the next tier of evolution, for example.
A system that greatly expands on the Nero's core set could be the next tier of evolution, for example.
Personally, I think the main issue with DMC hasn't really been the function of the controller. It's been the lack of motivation and the lack of inspiration to break through a player's own threshold.
Think about fighting games and SFV's campaign "Rise Up" - the notion that you reach your own personal ceiling, and then strive beyond it as a matter of self improvement. This is something that most people don't consider when playing games, particularly non-competitive ones. But if the game had proper tutorials, lessons, challenges, and start introducing rewards within the game to encourage experimentation and learning, then a player can begin to appreciate all the things the game has to offer. If ages ago I hadn't seen combo videos uploaded via Hand vs. Eye, I wouldn't have known about the possibilities in a DMC game, and what a skilled player was truly capable of doing. And while SFV's campaign (and game) kind of fell on deaf ears, and didn't cater to the casual audience in the least, that's not to say that there aren't things to glean from that missstep.
I think a primary evolution of the series needs to happen on a level outside of the control scheme, because it's the extra-combat features that are the primary deficiency. And ironically that's what can encourage and inspire players to continue to improve themselves. That's not to say that Itsuno shouldn't be implementing new and intuitive ways of accessing/unlocking a character's potential, but they need to fill in the existing potholes of the series before they start expanding the road into a highway.
Basically, the combat can be made fresh by making dynamic changes to the game outside of button inputs. And I'd take the series "returning to form" on all fronts for the next title over something reckless in its ambition. I want a whole package from DMC5, even if they have to play it a little safer. They need to prove to people that they can still do that.
Son Of Sparda
Member
I know. But the problem with styles is that if you keep them in then there are certain expectations that you need to meet. We actually talked about this before. And it's not just styles, really. As, I said it's the underlying fundamentals and actually the characters and expectations from them.
Like, if there are styles then people want Trickster. If Trickster is in then people expect Sword Master, Gunslinger and so on and so forth.
It's the same with characters. If Dante is in then Rebellion should be as well. If we have Rebellion then we need stinger, drive, helm's breaker, million stab, aerial rave and so on.
We literally talked about these stuff in this very thread and the consensus was that they should work in a similar fashion that they do right now. That limits the creativity of developers and what they could come up with in terms of new combat related mechanics.
Make no mistake, I myself love these stuff. But we've had them for years. I mean, it's not like DMC3 and DMC4 are going anywhere, right? So if we can trade them for other new and fresh mechanics, then IMO we absolutely should.
That's why I say they need to do away with styles and maybe even introduce new characters. For instance, yes I agree, a fully realized Nero may very well be the thing that brings us the evolution that we are looking for.
I agree with what you are saying GE. The series needs to do a much better job at actually showing what it is all about and help people learn it better.
Though, I don't necessarily think that this neglects what I'm saying. DMC both needs to do a better job at actually introducing its mechanics and combat strengths to players as well as evolving it's core gameplay and mechanics.
I explained above as to why I think the series needs to take a step forward and move away from the core mechanics that it currently has, like styles.
J_Macgrady
Member
Yeah all of this.
I guess I'm looking at DMC like fighting games like Guardian is and that's why I feel it shouldn't change too much. I want them to play safe with the combat itself and take risks with everything surrounding the combat as long as it still has that score attack feel.
Games like Ninja Gaiden and Bayonetta I feel need to have that DMC1 to DMC3 jump because the combat system in those games have more structure than DMC's combat.
DMC already has free form combat so there's really nothing else to do other than add new weapons, moves, mechanics, and characters. Like, I'm just not seeing how this series can have that revolutionary jump again when it comes to the fighting. It's already hard playing with DMC4 Dante how more complex/different can things get lol.
I'm just wary. I'm really not against change at all, but I'm gun shy after DmC, and I think a lot of fans are. Reinvention and evolution are great things to strive for, but the primary goal for a next title should be to show "This is DMC. Look at how DMC it is. There's no mistaking it. Look, here's Dante, and he wasn't abandoned."
That doesn't mean that there shouldn't be changes and streamlining of the system overall, but it should feel both familiar and fresh. Having a protagonist other than Dante would be a huge mistake, and a wasted opportunity. That's also not to say that I just want "more of the same". They need to do this right, and that takes a lot of hard work/new talent.
Son Of Sparda
Member
I get that. I really do. But think about this for a second. Let's say that we get DMC5 by 2018-2019 and that they play it safe. Hopefully it will become successful and they support the game for a year or two. Add a 3 years development cycle for the next game to that, and we'll probably get a DMC6 that tries to really shake things up by 2022-2023. That's like 7 years from now.
Now, think about this. In the meantime, Bayonetta is for all intents and purposes dead, and by the looks of things PG is trying to go down the RPG route. MGR is literally dead. TN is doing Nioh which is amazing, yet it's not a pure action game. And GoW is doing its own thing.
Even developers of Castlevania Lords of Shadow and Dante's Inferno have moved on to other genres.
So, if DMC5 tries to go down the safe route then we will be left for 7 years with a title that is still building on the fundamentals that are already a decade old. Now, as an action fan, don't you honestly feel frustrated by such prospect?
I think with DMC5 what they need to show is that:
"This is DMC. This is Dante. No mistaking that. But it's not simply just another DMC. It's not DMC4.5. It's much more than that. This is a genre defining title, just like DMC3 was."
I think that's the message that they should go for with DMC5. It might be unfair to devs to say this, but survival of the entire action stylish sub genre rests on the shoulders of next DMC. It feels like every other developer have abandoned the pure action stylish genre. It's up to DMC5 and Itsuno to revolutionize the genre again and breath some life to it.
I don't think simply doing another variation of what has come before would help them to achieve that.
Honestly? I'm not frustrated by that prospect at all. It's been too goddamn long since we've had a proper new DMC game, and that's what I want - a new DMC game.
I think you're getting a little too hung up on this 4.5 stuff. Was DMC4 just DMC3.5? Was Bayonetta 2 just Bayonetta 1.5? Was Dark Souls just Demon's Souls 1.5? No one is saying to simply rip everything from DMC4, tack on stuff, and call it a day. I want a real sequel with substance, and with that is going to be new changes, introduced mechanics, new characters... there will be a new focus and some modernization - like how enemy physics worked with the Devil Bringer in DMC4. What I don't want is DmC2.
Whatever DMC5 does, and however successful it is, it's not going to suddenly rejuvenate the genre. Do you think Itsuno set about to make a genre defining title with DMC3? No. He said as much in interviews in the artbook. He just wanted to push his team's and his own limits and create the best damn action game he could.... and that's what I want here. When you get too caught up in dreaming about the future and capturing a new audience, it's easy to forget and neglect key components to just making a good game - and that's what happened with DmC.
We're seeing action game hybrids and more indie action titles than ever before. While it's certainly a different landscape, the genre is still there. I'm not one to say that the sky is falling (unless DMC5 is canceled). There's just been an unfortunate shift in focus, but taste tends to be cyclical in nature. I could see pure action making its way back into the fold in a big way.
I partially get what you're saying. You don't want the same old shit. You don't want to have waited 8 years to just get the same game re-packaged. I don't really see any threat of that. It's frankly been too long, and I'm sure Itsuno has evolved over time as well with his focus in game design.
Bayonetta 2 was definitely Bayonetta 1.5 though. For as bold as the first game was, the sequel was definitely by the numbers and safe in comparison. That's probably fine for a first sequel but when there have been more iterations and a large time gap between releases, you need to deliver more.
badcrumble
Member
I think stuff like making sure Dante always has access to charging his firearms and a dodge that's easier to trigger without needing to be in a specific Style for either would go a long way toward improving the Style system precisely because it'd free up the Style input to do more stuff and stop keeping some fairly basic moves gated behind being in the correct Style so new players would actually get used to using them.
Also, something I had some thought about: if Vergil's now capable of aerial Stinger when he's DTed, can anyone think of a reason that DT-restricted aerial High Time wouldn't be tons of fun?
As for DMC4 characters, as deep as Dante is and as polished as Nero is, I honestly wouldn't call either of them as much of a 'finished product' as DMC4SE Vergil is. Nero's missing a bigger arsenal (as tremendously well-realized as his two weapons are), and Dante (for all his flexibility) doesn't truly feel like a finished character to me - more like they added the obvious and necessary next step of style switching, then nerfed most of the styles to compensate for the added flexibility. He doesn't feel fully polished to me, nor like he makes any non-obvious strides forward for his combat design (and if anything, stuff like Pandora feels a bit like a hodgepodge rather than a coherent, well-thought-out weapon). There's something really thoughtful *and* fleshed out in Vergil's design even though his cancel-anytime shit is totally broken and Concentration is overpowered.
Also, something I had some thought about: if Vergil's now capable of aerial Stinger when he's DTed, can anyone think of a reason that DT-restricted aerial High Time wouldn't be tons of fun?
As for DMC4 characters, as deep as Dante is and as polished as Nero is, I honestly wouldn't call either of them as much of a 'finished product' as DMC4SE Vergil is. Nero's missing a bigger arsenal (as tremendously well-realized as his two weapons are), and Dante (for all his flexibility) doesn't truly feel like a finished character to me - more like they added the obvious and necessary next step of style switching, then nerfed most of the styles to compensate for the added flexibility. He doesn't feel fully polished to me, nor like he makes any non-obvious strides forward for his combat design (and if anything, stuff like Pandora feels a bit like a hodgepodge rather than a coherent, well-thought-out weapon). There's something really thoughtful *and* fleshed out in Vergil's design even though his cancel-anytime shit is totally broken and Concentration is overpowered.
For me, despite the timegap, I appreciate that they haven't been working on this game for 8 years. I'm not expecting 8 years worth of redemption for the series.
If anything, it's when a series constantly pumps out yearly regurgitated sequels where they are the most amenable to reboots.
As long as it follows the number of aerial action rules that Vergil just plain breaks in DMC4SE, I don't see why that would be an issue.
I definitely consider Nero a complete character. He doesn't have the sheer number of options as Dante, but he was designed with this compact concentrated arsenal in mind. Every move he has contains an assortment of utility, so while he has fewer moves overall, he gets adequate functionality.
Take DT Activation for example. It's a free cancel, has I frames, and causes launch upon hit. This was a deliberate design choice to create a single action with multiple uses.
that's not to say that Nero shouldn't be expanded upon. Absolutely he should. But there was a great deal of consideration that went into the design of the character to make him feel complete while being easier for newer players to wrap their heads around.
EDIT: sorry for the double post.
badcrumble
Member
Right. I guess I think a good goal for DMC5 would be to have Nero approach the breadth of Dante without sacrificing the density, while also having Dante approach the 'density' of Nero's moveset in terms of maximizing the utility of each button and each weapon.
And I'd be down for having Lady and Trish both achieve the depth and polish of (let's say) DMC4 Nero. Improve these characters in increments while laying a solid foundation for future improvements in future games.
Son Of Sparda
Member
I guess we have different expectations then, cause I don't want just another DMC done by the books.
DMC4 doesn't mostly feel like DMC3.5 because a) It had Nero who had different core mechanics than Dante and b) The style systems reached their full potential in comparison to DMC3 with on the fly style switching. I don't see DMC5 being able to push that concept any further. Maybe they can streamline some of the moves like Aerial Rave or Trickster dodge, but the core aspect of styles would remain the same and that in my mind will result in the game feeling more like a DMC4.5.
Actually the Demon ---> Dark Souls comparison is a good way of showing what I expect to see with DMC5. I don't want Demon Souls to Dark Souls transition with DMC5. That's what happened with DMC3 ---> DMC4. Now, if they keep on going the same path then I think what we'll get next will be Dark Souls II or Dark Souls III, and I don't want that.
Instead what I'm looking for with DMC5 is more like Dark Souls ---> Bloodborne/Nioh. A fresh take on DMC series that feels familiar, yet it is new and innovative. I don't know how they can do that. If did I probably would be at Capcom right now. But that's what I want to see.
You are right, they probably shouldn't set out to make a game to define the genre. But regardless, I think that will be the case with DMC5. If they do the same thing and disappoint then I believe the fate of the genre will be sealed, at least for a long while. But if they manage to do something truly amazing and succeed both critically and financially, then I can see many more devs coming back to the genre. It won't happen at the drop of a hat, but it surly will affect the future of stylish action games in a very big way. I mean Let's not forgot, the stylish action might be a niche genre, but DMC is still a huge name in it.
When talking about multiple characters being playable in DMC5 people usually talk about Dante/Vergil/Nero but thinking about it, it feels like Dante/Lady would be the smarter choice.
Vergil and Nero are amazing but they are still cut from the same cloth as Dante overall.
Lady on the other hand brings a whole different style of play to the table and could entice shooter lovers etc. to try the series as well. Her style of play also looks a lot more accessible. It would also let the devs spread their wings in a different direction when it comes to moves and abilities.
Oh and I seriously hope they go a step further when it comes to gun moves and animations in DMC5. You guys should see the gun/grenade attack animations in Resonance of Fate, easily on another level compared to everything else.
Vergil and Nero are amazing but they are still cut from the same cloth as Dante overall.
Lady on the other hand brings a whole different style of play to the table and could entice shooter lovers etc. to try the series as well. Her style of play also looks a lot more accessible. It would also let the devs spread their wings in a different direction when it comes to moves and abilities.
Oh and I seriously hope they go a step further when it comes to gun moves and animations in DMC5. You guys should see the gun/grenade attack animations in Resonance of Fate, easily on another level compared to everything else.
Whether or not DMC5 will actually define the genre or not, all eyes will be on it to do so. It's carrying the shoulders of the genre whether Itsuno and co like it or not. The situation has been set up that people are looking for a savior.
This wouldn't be the situation if stuff like NG, Bayonetta and GoW would be alive and well.
So DMC5 doesn't just have to bring the series back to former glory, it has to push the genre to relevancy too.
This wouldn't be the situation if stuff like NG, Bayonetta and GoW would be alive and well.
So DMC5 doesn't just have to bring the series back to former glory, it has to push the genre to relevancy too.
The game is going to feel different and fresh no matter what. That's just a consequence of changing engines. I frankly don't see Demons Souls to Dark Souls being a .5 iteration, any more than I really see Dark Souls to Bloodborne being a whole new iteration. Both of those games changed things in a big way just in different ways. It feels pretty arbitrary to argue .5 vs. True sequel when we're talking about hypothetical future games.
I've never been a proponent of sacrificing identity for the sake of mixing it up. I'd rather there be more respect for the brand than that. Thats one of the issues that i have with a shift from Souls to Bloodborne as some sort of barometer of a "true sequel". There's a reason why Miyazaki named it differently. It's not some evolution of Souls. It's just different with a different focus, which is why it's a different series entirely, and also why some prefer one over the other. There's a fine line that I'm not really interested in crossing.
They need to take a good long look at the existing foundation and instead of scrapping it, build upon it and tailor certain elements to be more intuitive. New controller mapping and revamping the styles? Sure. The identity needs to be there, key moves need to be there, and Dante needs to be there.
At the end of the day, I just want a damn good game. If they are able to innovate in the process without sacrificing depth or completeness, then sure. But if they deliver a half assed game with missing elements just because they decided to try something dramatically new for the sake of shaking things up? There's no excuse, and the priority should be to deliver a complete package. I get that those aren't mutually exclusive, but I'm also trying to be realistic.
But you can't have one without the other. You need to have the series be as good as, if not better than, its highpoint for it to make any impact on the genre as a whole. It's all well and good to argue, this title needs to be revolutionary and innovative and completely change the landscape of action gaming... but realistically trendsetters don't become trendsetters by trying to be trendsetters.
And what determines if DMC5 lives or dies financially isn't really a revamped combat engine. I think we know this. It's the framing of the combat and how it's presented and packaged to the consumer. That's why I'm so focused on that aspect of a potential DMC5. It's critical to nail that component of agency and identity outside of a boxed room of demons.
J_Macgrady
Member
To be honest though, because all of us action game fans have been hungry, if DMC5 ends up being a great polished game then the genre will be relevant again. This is the most popular series in the genre and it's the one that started it all.
My thing is, I'm just not seeing this "thing" beyond what we currently have that's going to push the genre forward that revolves around the combat system. Does it need to be something really different like Wonderful 101? Does it need to introduce a mechanic like Dodge offset? If anything, Dante in DMC4 has surpassed really any other action game character.
And let's analyze the style system. What is it? It's just a mechanic that gives you more moves and different ways to approach combat. That's all it is. So no matter what name they give this "thing" you guys are looking for, that's all it's going to do at the end of the day. What is DMC without sword attacks, guns, dodging, and blocking?
This whole conversation about wanting to drastically change the combo system is pointless when they can focus on something that DMC3 struggled with: Enemy design.
No matter what new moves they give us, if we don't have smart aggressive enemies that are fun to fight then it's just going to be like the old DMC games. DMC4 improved in this area, so I'm not really worried too much about them not making extra improvements to the enemy design.
A DMC game that's complete, polished with tons of content, a good training mode, co op like Bayonetta 2, great level design, great boss & enemy design, solid campaign like DMC3, with no bullshit puzzles is the game that I want the most and is the one that's most possible because the blueprint is there.
There's soooooo many things outside of the core combat with DMC that needs improvements that it doesn't make sense to focus so much on an area where it already excels is what I'm saying.
Son Of Sparda
Member
Well GE said it himself, these things aren't mutually exclusive. You can have a title that both changes the core elements of its combat AND has a great overall presentation. Now is that a hard thing to do? Definitely. Is it too idealistic? Maybe. But is it impossible? No, it's not.
And if anyone can pull it off, then I think it would be the guy who made an amazing comeback with DMC3 after that godawful DMC2.
GE, you say you don't wanna cross the line between what makes the game DMC and what would be essentially a new title. But haven't that already happened with the series before? DMC3/4 play very differently than DMC1 that one could argue that gameplay wise, they could've been new IPs/spiritual successors.
Though, I don't really agree with saying that Bloodborne is so different that it shouldn't be counted as a Souls title. There is a reason why people call these games Soulsborne. Bloodborne was different, but it still had the core DNA of Souls titles in it and I think that's part of the reason why many Souls fans (myself included) ended up really enjoying it. It was different, yet it felt familiar. It felt like a true evolution of Souls formula. That's why I ended up disappointing DS III cause to me it felt like a step back, towards the same old formula.
I want DMC5 to elevate the DMC formula that we have right now in the same way that Bloodborne did to Souls series. And I truly believe that if they do that, we won't feel like "this isn't DMC anymore" but rather "this is how a modern DMC should be".
Well, that's assuming that they do manage to pull it off.
And if anyone can pull it off, then I think it would be the guy who made an amazing comeback with DMC3 after that godawful DMC2.
GE, you say you don't wanna cross the line between what makes the game DMC and what would be essentially a new title. But haven't that already happened with the series before? DMC3/4 play very differently than DMC1 that one could argue that gameplay wise, they could've been new IPs/spiritual successors.
Though, I don't really agree with saying that Bloodborne is so different that it shouldn't be counted as a Souls title. There is a reason why people call these games Soulsborne. Bloodborne was different, but it still had the core DNA of Souls titles in it and I think that's part of the reason why many Souls fans (myself included) ended up really enjoying it. It was different, yet it felt familiar. It felt like a true evolution of Souls formula. That's why I ended up disappointing DS III cause to me it felt like a step back, towards the same old formula.
I want DMC5 to elevate the DMC formula that we have right now in the same way that Bloodborne did to Souls series. And I truly believe that if they do that, we won't feel like "this isn't DMC anymore" but rather "this is how a modern DMC should be".
Well, that's assuming that they do manage to pull it off.
badcrumble
Member
Yeah, ultimately I'd love to see the combat further improved but DMC5's top priority needs to be other stuff: more side content, more unlockables, a better campaign (and a better approach to campaign structure), some form of available co-op (not necessarily campaign co-op - Bayo 2 did it well), and (this one is essential) easy recording, editing, and sharing of player combo footage. DMC4SE shows that the basic combat foundation remains rock-solid (though there's room for improvement) - it's the other stuff that's showing its age.
People point to DMC3 as being a reboot of sorts, and its true to an extent. But I think they are also under selling the similarities between the titles. DMC plays differently mostly in that it's more limited in nature and the focus is on enemy behavior/weaknesses rather than combos, but the root foundation was maintained, and in fact Itsuno returned a lot of things to how DMC functioned after the reception of DMC2, such as the Stinger speed and overall gravity. Even the control scheme is mostly the same, just expanded. There was still stinger, hightime, helm breaker, but they expanded it and owned it in a different way.
And while it's not exactly the same, DMC3 Dante was a wisecracking goofball that brought levity to his fights like DMC Dante. There were also consistent underlying themes of family and lineage. It was more slapstick, but it was still definitely there.
My point is that you may see Bloodborne as an evolution or elevation. I see it as simply deviation. Which is also why there's a Dark Souls 3 that released after Bloodborne. They cater to different audiences, and provide something unique to both.
I don't think we have to worry that Itsuno will be formulaic with his approach to a DMC5. He'll changeit up to keep it fresh I'm sure. I just don't want a series of changes without purpose.
Son Of Sparda
Member
I think that goes without saying. As much as I give Capcom grief over their shitty actions I have to admit that whatever DMC thing they announce next, I'll be there day one regardless of how it looks or plays.
It's not the same with their other games though. Like, I'm seriously considering to not support RE7, because of how badly Capcom's practices have been with SFV.
And I feel those kind of changes that happened with DMC3 were similar to what Bloodborne did with Dark Souls existing formula. Like you still have a similar control scheme, the same kind of methodical action, yet the focus this time around is on the player being faster and more responsive. And the whole game and the encounters are designed around that. DMC3 is very similar to Bloodborne in that regard since, the game has the underlying themes of DMC that you mentioned, yet it elevates the formula by adding style modifiers and on the fly weapon switching to the mix, and the game was designed around these new fundamentals.
As I've said before, I see Bloodborne as an evolution of the existing formula, though it is true that you and others might see it as a simple deviation. And I think the existence of DS III has just as much to do with From Software wanting to continue releasing a new title in a commercially successful series, as it has to do with catering to DS fans. So I guess we just have to agree to disagree on that.
At any rate, I think there is no denying that despite how we feel about what Bloodborne is, we all can agree that it still has its Souls DNA and does feel familiar enough to those titles, that fans of the latter can appreciate the former, true? If so, then I don't see how DMC5 trying to do the same would worry you guys.
I mean, I get that you might worry that what happens if they tried and fail at doing it. I'll worry about that too. But I don't see why you guys would be against the idea itself.
Edit: Actually, I think Nioh is in the same boat as Bloodborne or is even further ahead of it when it comes to evolving Souls series basic formula. Though, I guess Nioh is kinda trying something different so it might not be fair to directly compare it to Soulsborne.
Son Of Sparda
Member
Yeah you are right. That's why I added that Nioh bit to the end.
SoS, part of what concerns me is that you sound like the marketing for DmC. DMC - "DNA" included. That game goes to show what a lack of self awareness and misunderstanding of your fan base can really do to hurt your brand, and in many ways, your legacy.
Stuff like that needs to be handled delicately and not in a cavalier way, especially following DmC.
Stuff like that needs to be handled delicately and not in a cavalier way, especially following DmC.
J_Macgrady
Member
Honestly, all DMC3 did was embrace the important parts of DMC1 to an extreme.
I can see why Kamiya focuses on making new franchises instead of sequels now, because why restrict what you can and cannot do with an established series when you can go crazy and make something completely different.
If the DMC team wants to make a new style of action game, make a new franchise. If they're making DMC5, I have certain expectations for the game because it's an established franchise.
I can see why Kamiya focuses on making new franchises instead of sequels now, because why restrict what you can and cannot do with an established series when you can go crazy and make something completely different.
If the DMC team wants to make a new style of action game, make a new franchise. If they're making DMC5, I have certain expectations for the game because it's an established franchise.
Son Of Sparda
Member
IMO you shouldn't worry about seeing another DmC. There were many factors with that game that resulted in it turning out the way it did. The biggest one was giving the game to a developer that wasn't really good at making action titles and didn't even know what was it that made DMC the series that it was, to begin with
But if Itsuno is the one doing it this time around, then I think we could rest assured that he'll deliver us something truly unique and praise worthy.
Also yes Jason, I would really like it if Capcom did an entirely new action title alongside or after DMC5. But, considering the current climate of the industry I don't see that happening anytime soon
But if Itsuno is the one doing it this time around, then I think we could rest assured that he'll deliver us something truly unique and praise worthy.
Also yes Jason, I would really like it if Capcom did an entirely new action title alongside or after DMC5. But, considering the current climate of the industry I don't see that happening anytime soon
Stuff like this is why so much rests on the shoulders of DMC.
People weren't so thirsty for DMC while Platinum was putting out quality products but once they started down this license stuff... it honestly did the genre some harm along with doing harm to the brand of Platinum.
Before if you were an action game fan and you heard that PG was making a game... then you would be like "oh snaps I am IN there!" Now when you hear Platinum working on some IP you are like "eh, I want to see the mechanics and level design before going in there".
Also I am sure if DMC5 is godlike we will have some "return of the king" memes going on.
People weren't so thirsty for DMC while Platinum was putting out quality products but once they started down this license stuff... it honestly did the genre some harm along with doing harm to the brand of Platinum.
Before if you were an action game fan and you heard that PG was making a game... then you would be like "oh snaps I am IN there!" Now when you hear Platinum working on some IP you are like "eh, I want to see the mechanics and level design before going in there".
Also I am sure if DMC5 is godlike we will have some "return of the king" memes going on.
Those were some dark days. I didn't want Ninja Theory to be in charge with Devil May Cry related games if DmC was more successful.
Meh. Platinum still do good work even though Korra and TMNT were their weaker efforts. Still, would rather have Itsuno and crew at the helm.
direct_quote
Member
Still disappointed we will never get MGR2 (or God Hand spiritual successor, Mad World doesn't count?)...
Kaleinc
Banned
I'd rather have DMC by Suda51 than by Platinum in their best day.
New entry would do great just by eliminating backtracking and scrub killers like spikes, disappearing platforms and a dedicated player killer - dice game. Throw a decent story on top, polish everything till it shines (not Access games kind of polish) and there you have a 10+ mil. sold copies shareholders' dream.
Son Of Sparda
Member
10 million is impossible! Even mainstream stuff like Tomb Raider and Uncharted don't reach that number. Hell, Capcom's best selling game is RE5 and has done 7 million and that's after 7 years.
As Dahbomb said, we would be lucky if DMC5 manages to get 3 million sales.
As Dahbomb said, we would be lucky if DMC5 manages to get 3 million sales.
J_Macgrady
Member
I just don't want anybody to lose sight of the fact that these developers are human. They have lives and hobbies outside of making video games just like us. It takes a lot of work to even make a DMC4.5 with new stuff and no backtracking. It's not like they just go to work and say a magic word and all of these things just appear on the computer screen.
Edit:
Man if DMC5 sold anywhere near 10 million Capcom is gonna give every character their own spin off game, and Dante is going to start appearing in random blockbuster movies for no reason.
"What's Dante doing in this new Batman movie?"
"DMC5 sold 1 billion copies. He's the most popular fictional character on earth. He needs to be everywhere."
Edit:
Man if DMC5 sold anywhere near 10 million Capcom is gonna give every character their own spin off game, and Dante is going to start appearing in random blockbuster movies for no reason.
"What's Dante doing in this new Batman movie?"
"DMC5 sold 1 billion copies. He's the most popular fictional character on earth. He needs to be everywhere."
badcrumble
Member
I don't hate the disappearing platforms bit of DMC4, honestly - I think it's a type of shifted arena that *does* have the ability to keep things interesting. It's the fact that it takes a while to retry (because you have to fight enemies, enter a teleporter, and beat up a switch) that is annoying.
I enjoyed the DmC battle over a bunch of breaking glass tiles, too, for similar reasons.
But also, the DMC3 minecart/whatever it was moving platform gave a good sense of variety without having an irritating built-in fail state, and might be a better thing to shoot for overall.
Trying to think of other noticeably interesting/good arenas in the series and my mind's failing me.
If DMC ever *did* adopt the approach of having fully-enclosed arenas (like a fighting game) and selecting missions from your shop that'd teleport you straight there, I'd love love love to see some arenas imitating what Bayonetta's done with that format (fairly simple flat circular space, but with a completely fucking wild background full of crazy shit going on).
Err... what?
It's their job, they aren't making the game in their free time.
The kind of backtracking they had in DMC4 was nothing short of embarrassing.
If DmC can have next to no backtracking then I sure as heck expect DMC5 not to as well.
10 million part was obviously a joke but I do think an outstanding DMC5 can sell close to 3 million and if it's budgeted well and released in a timely fashion, it would be financially quite profitable and would at least pave the way for more DMC games. And that's really the main point of sales... this is not really a pissing contest with other better selling games, as long as a franchise as healthy within its own domain it's fine.
These days with Steam and re-releases, it is far more profitable to just make an excellent game that people are likely to buy later on. Good games that are received well by the community actually have legs now. You KNOW a bunch of people are going to come out of the wood work if they learn that the new DMC game is out and is actually damn good.
These days with Steam and re-releases, it is far more profitable to just make an excellent game that people are likely to buy later on. Good games that are received well by the community actually have legs now. You KNOW a bunch of people are going to come out of the wood work if they learn that the new DMC game is out and is actually damn good.