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Devil May Cry 4 Special Edition |OT| Two girls, one motivated Vergil
- Thread starter Sigmaah
- Start date
skLaFarebear
Member
Yeah, fixed camera is especially awful in this game. Well it was bad in 1, but it was a lot more forgivable back then. The control scheme in this game works well enough for combat at least with a fixed camera, but it would just be better if the camera wasn't fixed and was following the player.
The dodge button issue is something that makes DMC harder to get into and is something that Capcom is probably going to look into. They attempted to do it with DmC but they sort of failed at first with the double button dodges and no lock on. DmC DE is more reasonable now with the dodge button + lock on feature.
I personally have a solution in mind for Dante that fixes all these common issues while still providing him with the depth of DMC4 Dante. I just don't think Capcom will use it and they would probably just opt to take away some options from Dante in order to make him easier to get into.
I think this has been discussed before many times but a lot of Dante's basic tools should not require Style switch. That whole thing started in DMC3 to give each Style flexibility and more options so that you don't feel so limited when you were just stuck with 1 style. That system is never going to come back because it was a work around for the PS2 RAM issue.
This is why the best control/combat scheme for Dante in DMC5 should be something like this (IMHO of course, I am sure many would disagree):
/\: Melee attack
[]: Gun attack
X: Jump
O: Defensive maneuver (if you just press O it's a quick Trickster Dash for dodging. Improved movement speed and start up from DMC4).
R1: Lock On
L1: Style Modifier
L2/R2: Weapon Swap
D-Pad: Changes Devil Trigger ability (situational form changes, forms include Doppelganger, Quicksilver etc), D-pad Up is Devil Trigger transformation
Right off the bat you are thinking "Wait a minute Dahbomb.. there are no Styles here! You just totally gutted Dante!"
All the Styles are located under the Style modifier. When you hold down L1(or tap it as a Style switch type thing if you want with the right option), Dante's basic moveset becomes the more advanced "Style" versions of the button you are pressing:
L1 + Triangle : Swordmaster moves
L1 + [] : Gunslinger moves
L1 + O : Royal Guard moves
This fixes like 5 problems with DMC4 Dante:
*Basic tools like Dodging/Dashing aren't gated behind Style switch.
*You don't have to move your thumb from the Stick to switch Styles. Your finger would always be on the button to switch style just like it's always there for the lock on.
*This actually allows more room for more tools for Dante in DMC5. I just gave an example of DT forms on the D pad, Capcom can do an entirely new mechanic. They can also add more mobility options for Dante by using the L1+X function.
*It's intuitive to the buttons pressed. Having one button do like 20 different things doesn't really make much sense to a new player. With this system... if you press Triangle or you press L1 + Triangle for the Swordmaster style... you KNOW you are getting a melee attack when you press Triangle. It's not radically altering the function of a button like Style switch does in DMC4 where O can be a dodge, a block, a melee attack and a gun attack.
*There's no confusion as to which Style you are currently on like in DMC4. It's like being in lock on vs not in lock on. This means there's less chance of execution errors where you accidentally press the wrong D-pad and get the wrong style.
I personally have a solution in mind for Dante that fixes all these common issues while still providing him with the depth of DMC4 Dante. I just don't think Capcom will use it and they would probably just opt to take away some options from Dante in order to make him easier to get into.
I think this has been discussed before many times but a lot of Dante's basic tools should not require Style switch. That whole thing started in DMC3 to give each Style flexibility and more options so that you don't feel so limited when you were just stuck with 1 style. That system is never going to come back because it was a work around for the PS2 RAM issue.
This is why the best control/combat scheme for Dante in DMC5 should be something like this (IMHO of course, I am sure many would disagree):
/\: Melee attack
[]: Gun attack
X: Jump
O: Defensive maneuver (if you just press O it's a quick Trickster Dash for dodging. Improved movement speed and start up from DMC4).
R1: Lock On
L1: Style Modifier
L2/R2: Weapon Swap
D-Pad: Changes Devil Trigger ability (situational form changes, forms include Doppelganger, Quicksilver etc), D-pad Up is Devil Trigger transformation
Right off the bat you are thinking "Wait a minute Dahbomb.. there are no Styles here! You just totally gutted Dante!"
All the Styles are located under the Style modifier. When you hold down L1(or tap it as a Style switch type thing if you want with the right option), Dante's basic moveset becomes the more advanced "Style" versions of the button you are pressing:
L1 + Triangle : Swordmaster moves
L1 + [] : Gunslinger moves
L1 + O : Royal Guard moves
This fixes like 5 problems with DMC4 Dante:
*Basic tools like Dodging/Dashing aren't gated behind Style switch.
*You don't have to move your thumb from the Stick to switch Styles. Your finger would always be on the button to switch style just like it's always there for the lock on.
*This actually allows more room for more tools for Dante in DMC5. I just gave an example of DT forms on the D pad, Capcom can do an entirely new mechanic. They can also add more mobility options for Dante by using the L1+X function.
*It's intuitive to the buttons pressed. Having one button do like 20 different things doesn't really make much sense to a new player. With this system... if you press Triangle or you press L1 + Triangle for the Swordmaster style... you KNOW you are getting a melee attack when you press Triangle. It's not radically altering the function of a button like Style switch does in DMC4 where O can be a dodge, a block, a melee attack and a gun attack.
*There's no confusion as to which Style you are currently on like in DMC4. It's like being in lock on vs not in lock on. This means there's less chance of execution errors where you accidentally press the wrong D-pad and get the wrong style.
Chaos2Frozen
Member
In that case I suggest putting weapon switching to the D-pad, since most games use that anyway and it would be intuitive.
L2/R2 could be another set of modifiers plus the Devil trigger.
Worst case scenario.... L3+R3 *shudder*
Shadow_Lord
Member
Did DMC2 and 3 have the same team?
It is significantly better than fighting him as anyone else - Grim Trick alone helps immeasurably by allowing you to skip the janky grappling mechanics Nero has to endure to damage him. Of course, it says a lot about how poorly-designed the boss is when the only time people enjoy fighting them is when they can just ignore half of their mechanics - speaking of which, I wonder if playing the Saviour battle as Lady would have been a similar sort of improvement, even if understandably lesser given that the underlying design is even weaker.
I'm not sure about the team as a whole, but apparently Itsuno didn't direct 2 from the beginning, only being put on the project towards the end in order to piece together something functional.
Quicksilver and Doppelganger (maybe Lady's grenade toss as well) really have to be optional modifiers for every character - with the ability refunding present in 4, it'd have been easy to make them additional DT upgrades you could swap between.
Wolf Akela
Member
Yes. DMC3 is "We're Sorry About DMC2 Edition". 2 had some half baked ideas that evolved in 3 such as Aerial Rave, Twosome Time, Wall Run and Rainstorm.
RecursiveFault
Banned
This is actually incredible and I really hope it happens. Most of the issues you mentioned are all big issues for me with DMC4 Dante, and would do a lot without sacrificing anything.
Bringing back Quicksilver and Doppleganger could even make it surpass DMC3 Style Switcher depth.
Tetsuo9999
Member
If anything, DMC5 will need more postgame content. There's a reason why most high level players haven't touched the campaign in 4 in ages. There are several ways they could extend the life of the game while using existing assets that wouldn't bloat the budget. Simple things like custom Bloody Palace layouts that could be shared, daily challenges like what's seen in modern roguelikes, and a limited co-op like Tag Climax would be great for the game's overall lifespan. Obviously meaty stuff like DLC weapons would cost more money, but I don't think just having the campaign (be it good or awful again) and Bloody Palace is going to cut it whenever DMC5 is released. This franchise has been one of the more social ones in terms of content sharing and tutorials way before it was common, and Capcom should take advantage of that with some nice social features.
If there must be platforming, at least make it less frustrating and tacked on as it was in 4. Say what you want about the platforming in the reboot, but at least it was quick, responsive, and over with quickly. In all honesty, no one watches someone like Donguri play DMC to watch him do jumping puzzles, and even casual fans just want to get more action rather than padding. If the budget doesn't allow for the things I mentioned in the first paragraph, making the campaign less of a slog to play through should be their top priority.
Lowering the barriers of entry and execution should be their next step. DmC made some steps in the right direction (dodge button, etc.), but many of the game's issues weren't fixed until two years later when the majority of the community had long since moved on. Some of the suggestions Dahbomb has posted would be a good start. Most players went through the campaign with Dante once and switched back to Nero. It would be difficult, but I feel they could make Dante require less constant D-Pad mashing while still having him maintain his depth and high skill ceiling. Striking the sweet spot between DmC's simplicity and the mainline game's complexity would be hard, but it would be good for the community overall. The social features I mentioned in the first paragraph would do wonders for encouraging players to stick with the game and learn its nuances too; right now there's little reason to play the game again after unlocking the Bloody Palace and the other small unlockables.
If there must be platforming, at least make it less frustrating and tacked on as it was in 4. Say what you want about the platforming in the reboot, but at least it was quick, responsive, and over with quickly. In all honesty, no one watches someone like Donguri play DMC to watch him do jumping puzzles, and even casual fans just want to get more action rather than padding. If the budget doesn't allow for the things I mentioned in the first paragraph, making the campaign less of a slog to play through should be their top priority.
Lowering the barriers of entry and execution should be their next step. DmC made some steps in the right direction (dodge button, etc.), but many of the game's issues weren't fixed until two years later when the majority of the community had long since moved on. Some of the suggestions Dahbomb has posted would be a good start. Most players went through the campaign with Dante once and switched back to Nero. It would be difficult, but I feel they could make Dante require less constant D-Pad mashing while still having him maintain his depth and high skill ceiling. Striking the sweet spot between DmC's simplicity and the mainline game's complexity would be hard, but it would be good for the community overall. The social features I mentioned in the first paragraph would do wonders for encouraging players to stick with the game and learn its nuances too; right now there's little reason to play the game again after unlocking the Bloody Palace and the other small unlockables.
Son Of Sparda
Member
I see some fine suggestions here. And like always I like to add en equivalent to RER2's raid mode, especially now that we have 5 unique playable characters.
Chaos2Frozen
Member
I would really love to see an open world style of these games. Would be cool to see random world bosses wanting the world, with a day night cycle. Different kind of enemies spawning depending on the time of day and location. Give the characters a motorbike to drive around. Etc.
But let's face it, they are not going to make an 60fps open world game on consoles. Not only is it complex, but difficult to market because of the graphic hit it would have to take.
But let's face it, they are not going to make an 60fps open world game on consoles. Not only is it complex, but difficult to market because of the graphic hit it would have to take.
Ghost Slayer
Member
Is there something wrong with force edge combo A?
It said triangle, triangle, tap triangle to perform combo but i can't do million stab-like :\
Also, is there any way to counter angels with shield other than R1 + triangle Yamato?
It said triangle, triangle, tap triangle to perform combo but i can't do million stab-like :\
Also, is there any way to counter angels with shield other than R1 + triangle Yamato?
If Lucia is going to be saved from DMC2, she'd be my top candidate to inherit Quicksilver and Doppelganger. Helps that DTs in that game already had an early version of the "time slow" mechanic.
You might be mistaking the first attack in the force edge combo as being the first two, pressing the button once results in two slashes. You need to pause after Vergil spins the sword around him, which happens after the second input. The wording is also a bit confusing, they should probably have worded it to emphasise the delay before the third input.
I think that having a DMC.net similar to RE.net would do wonders for longevity, and continue to provide incentives for more casual players to push themselves in the game.
Ivan Amiibo
Banned
Ninja Gaiden Black was on its way to that. More of a metroidvania type deal with distinct chapters, but I think it worked well.
I would not want GTA style open world at all in one of these games.
thanks, nailed it!
AgentLampshade
Member
Finally managed to get an enemy jump on Vergil's sword taunt.
So satisfying.
So satisfying.
An alternate strat is to just dodge the four dashing attacks he does and attack him during the recovery he has after the fourth attack, he will get stunned like usual.
Quick question, I searched around the thread but didn't find any answers:
Does the digital PS4 version have the japanese voice acting as well? I presumed it would have both US and JP voices, but I can't find it. Unless I'm missing something very obvious, seems like it is exclusive to the physical version of the game.
Does the digital PS4 version have the japanese voice acting as well? I presumed it would have both US and JP voices, but I can't find it. Unless I'm missing something very obvious, seems like it is exclusive to the physical version of the game.
ShinMaruku
Member
I just finally had Lady click and it is glorius.
TGO
Hype Train conductor. Works harder than it steams.
That's weird it changes to English with US English and not UK English
Thanks
Going the Metroidvania route would be fantastic; even if they had to drop the mission structure to do it. It'd also help a lot with making postgame content more accessible - the non-combat padding which will inevitably be in the game would only have to be completed once; after which every unique enemy encounter in the game could be repeated by simply going to the required room (with a boss rush available from a separate menu), without having to deal with poison gas, board games, grapple/platforming sections, gyro blades, the Lost Woods, underwater sections, laser hallways, timed sequences or any other filler only useful for padding out an initial playthrough. Though ideally a separate mission mode which allowed linear sections of the main game to be played in co-op, as with Raid Mode; would also be available.
As long as no on-disc content was gated behind that sort of setup, it could work.
Linear missions are best imo, no need for metroidvania in DMC.
Just remove puzzles, platforming and gimmicks. Make it all about the combat.
But seriously though, Capcom just needs better campaign/level designers. The rest of their teams (artists, animators, combat designers, musicians etc.) are doing their job right.
Both DMC4 and RE6 would have been masterpieces if their campaigns weren't so lackluster. Both the games have magnificent combat and great visuals but shine most during their side content (Mercenaries and Bloody Palace) and that is just sad.
Just remove puzzles, platforming and gimmicks. Make it all about the combat.
But seriously though, Capcom just needs better campaign/level designers. The rest of their teams (artists, animators, combat designers, musicians etc.) are doing their job right.
Both DMC4 and RE6 would have been masterpieces if their campaigns weren't so lackluster. Both the games have magnificent combat and great visuals but shine most during their side content (Mercenaries and Bloody Palace) and that is just sad.
J_Macgrady
Member
I honestly don't think there needs to be any changes to the combat system to make it more accessible. It's not like the game requires QCF HCB inputs to pull off moves. Most of the stuff you see in combo videos/Truestyle tournaments aren't even neccesary to have fun or get SSS on DMD. I would only make some of Dante's moves like aerial rave available without the style button so you can do more with the style system.
I've never felt accessibility has ever been an issue with Devil May Cry. Even though mainline games, even on normal difficulty, can be on the difficult side of things you can still get through the game and even some of the harder difficulties while only tapping into maybe 30-40% of the game's full potential. I don't think there'd really be any need to change up the gameplay that much for DMC5.
Gameplay wise DMC5 could just be a polished up DMC4.5 and I think that would be completely fine. Gameplay is not something that was a problem with DMC4.
Gameplay wise DMC5 could just be a polished up DMC4.5 and I think that would be completely fine. Gameplay is not something that was a problem with DMC4.
Lowering the skill ceiling or streamlining various things somewhat wouldn't be a bad thing though, look at how much easier it is to feel like a badass with Vergil. It would be great if more people could feel that sense of satisfaction with the series instead of mostly seeing it in combo videos.
Chaos2Frozen
Member
And if they went with the "DMC Inc. Job Listing" idea that's been tossed around here forever, it would work wonderfully with this system.
A DMC game with the kind of sheer volume of content that a Monster Hunter game has now-a-days would pretty much be my ideal model for this type of game.
This sounds perfect to me, although I'd probably switch the bumpers/triggers.
To add, I've always loved dodging in my games, and it's one aspect of character action games that I always missed about DMC. I love it when the game "responds" to a perfectly-timed dodge, e.g. Witch Time in Bayo, whistling in God Hand. When you evade an attack with a trickster dash, you're just dashing out of the way with no, well, style. I'd like to see a special dodge animation for a well-timed dodge in DMC5, like a maybe a unique animation for each character. Bayo 2's new Bayo sliding/spinning on her knees animation dodge animation (as opposed to her standard cartwheel) would be amazing on Trish or Lady.
The modifier button idea probably has a chance of happening since it was both in DmC and Itsuno's own Dragon's Dogma.
Well Nero has Table Hopper and that requires just timing.
And dodging at the last moment in general (be it through a command dodge or jump/roll) increases the style meter.
Well Nero has Table Hopper and that requires just timing.
And dodging at the last moment in general (be it through a command dodge or jump/roll) increases the style meter.
Yeah, but I want more audiovisual payoff. A tiny bit of slow-mo and MT Framework's motion blur filter (like used during explosions, but obviously not as overkill) would be gravy.
I couldn't agree more. At least DMC4 had the excuse of being rushed; the bloated travesty of RE6's campaign was an even greater waste.
FullmetalPain
Banned
https://www.facebook.com/First4Figures/photos/pb.129298161731.-2207520000.1435592787./10152995511386732/?type=3&theater
First 4 Figures has announced they are working on a Dante statue. Teaser above. Word of warning: these statues don't come cheap, they usually go for $200-499. It's well worth the money though.
EDIT: updated post with picture and Facebook link
First 4 Figures has announced they are working on a Dante statue. Teaser above. Word of warning: these statues don't come cheap, they usually go for $200-499. It's well worth the money though.
EDIT: updated post with picture and Facebook link
justjustin
Member
If we're talking wishlists for DMC5 I would love it if they included an "arcade" difficulty that focused on survival.
- Get rid of mission select. Save and upgrade between them, but you can only move forward.
- Drop any way to grind orbs. Orbs collected between deaths are lost.
- Remove inventory restorative items. You can only find them in levels and use them instantly.
- Bring back yellow orbs like in DMC 1 and make missions longer so they take at least 30 minutes to complete, not 3. Your yellow orbs are lives and when you run out you start the mission over (now longer than people are used to). Better yet, increase ways to earn yellow orbs by tenfold (especially early on) and make them last the duration of the entire game. Losing them puts you back at the very start.
- Make it challenging enough so it'd take a good player 5 hours of experience per 1 hour of game. So if the game from start to finish is 5 hours long it took roughly 25 hours to finish it the first time.
- Make a practice room like Bayonetta between missions.
- Get rid of cumbersome, slow menus. Just pause the game with a movelist.
It's basically a one-shot mode for people who want the game to last as long as possible, and want meaningful progression where every decision matters.
As great as it is, DMC4SE epitomizes the mini-game mentality of breaking the game up into pieces, so how you play in the beginning doesn't matter by the end. Progress and power accumulates between deaths, not from experience and ability. It's easier to play this way-- it's less frustrating and smooths out all the bumps in its design-- but gives you less of a reason to come back to it in the end. That's why people clear the game then play Bloody Palace mode for eternity. The best players develop their ability purely from self-imposed goals and love of the combat, and Bloody Palace is the only thing that pushes back and gives them a challenge.
- Get rid of mission select. Save and upgrade between them, but you can only move forward.
- Drop any way to grind orbs. Orbs collected between deaths are lost.
- Remove inventory restorative items. You can only find them in levels and use them instantly.
- Bring back yellow orbs like in DMC 1 and make missions longer so they take at least 30 minutes to complete, not 3. Your yellow orbs are lives and when you run out you start the mission over (now longer than people are used to). Better yet, increase ways to earn yellow orbs by tenfold (especially early on) and make them last the duration of the entire game. Losing them puts you back at the very start.
- Make it challenging enough so it'd take a good player 5 hours of experience per 1 hour of game. So if the game from start to finish is 5 hours long it took roughly 25 hours to finish it the first time.
- Make a practice room like Bayonetta between missions.
- Get rid of cumbersome, slow menus. Just pause the game with a movelist.
It's basically a one-shot mode for people who want the game to last as long as possible, and want meaningful progression where every decision matters.
As great as it is, DMC4SE epitomizes the mini-game mentality of breaking the game up into pieces, so how you play in the beginning doesn't matter by the end. Progress and power accumulates between deaths, not from experience and ability. It's easier to play this way-- it's less frustrating and smooths out all the bumps in its design-- but gives you less of a reason to come back to it in the end. That's why people clear the game then play Bloody Palace mode for eternity. The best players develop their ability purely from self-imposed goals and love of the combat, and Bloody Palace is the only thing that pushes back and gives them a challenge.
robotzombie
Member
To anyone who is good with Nero, when you are playing normally, are you trying to Rev while doing air combos with enemy steps and buster grabs? Or do you just focus on the timing of that stuff and ignore revving/trying to max-act?
I'm not crazy about First4Figures' output, but its nice to see more DMC merch.
Lord Dante
Neo Member
There was the soundtrack, Dante's look, Lucia (personal opinion and I feel like she had room for growth), custom devil triggers, the gloomy setting (one that is not oversaturated at least), gave us wall running, introduced bloody palace, and most importantly it gave us DMC3.
These are my personal opinions, however. But I feel most of this stuff was overlooked. I wish Cacpom added Dante's DMC2 costume into DMC4SE instead of that DmC palette. Itsuno said it was his favorite look for Dante too, IIRC, in that one stream.
There's no doubt at this point that First 4 Figures is staffed by eldritch beings from beyond the veil; with only the faintest conception of the flesh prisons which mortal creatures reside within.
The effort required for a palette swap and full costume are incomparable - considering Trish's extra costume was recycled from the original game and Vergil/Dante's share 90% of their model, it doesn't seem like another unique outfit was possible on their schedule. And a DMC2 palette swap just wouldn't have been different enough to bother with - though it admittedly could have worked for Nero.
Lord Dante
Neo Member
Wow. Nero looks great!
PensivePen
Member
They definitely do not.
Vergil's cutscene model is also of lower quality than all of the original cast.
Preach it. All of these were awesome additions. You forgot the best thing about DmC though. The camera. It follows the action so well.