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[Pixel Pete]

Yes, I will definitely post content. It might be hard to post much this weekend, since I'm LANing with buddies, but I'll do my best.

fuck that mate, were I in your boat, I'd be LANing it up hardcore as well. Just enjoy it and post it when the opportunity arises. If its 60fps, we can wait as nobody else seems to be in a rush to beat you to 60fps footage...

 

[squidyj]

Oh that's cool, I can change game status in the middle of a game, turn a private game open or an open game private.

 

[Rentahamster]

Blue post on skill swapping:

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/3196390175

Hmm, well why don't they do something like this:

Swapping out skills incurs a 1-2 minute mandatory cooldown when out in the field and there are hostile enemies present within a 50 yard radius .

Swapping out skills while in town incurs no cooldown penalty and they can be freely moved around/exchanged.

 

[FieryBalrog]

Hmm, well why don't they do something like this:

Swapping out skills incurs a 1-2 minute mandatory cooldown when out in the field and there are hostile enemies present within a 50 yard radius .

Swapping out skills while in town incurs no cooldown penalty and they can be freely moved around/exchanged.

I imagine they want the system to be a little more grokkable and elegant, though.

 

[syko de4d]

bah i can´t post in this diablo3 forum...

My Idea: U need to buy a "Scroll of Swapping lvl 1-7", stacks up to 20times. For example for skills with no runes or lvl 1 runes the Scroll costs 100gold, for skills with lvl 2 runes 300gold, 500gold...for skills with lvl 7 runes 1500Gold. So u need to pay Gold but u not must go to town.
Everytime u change a Skill u use one of these Scrolls and everytime u change a skill all ur skills will have 5-10sec Cooldown, better solution then casttime where u need to stay still for 5-10sec. If u choose a skill with cooldown this skill will get 50% of the cooldown time extra. For Example if u choose Preparation u will have 60-70sec CD before u can use it. Or other solution, u can´t change a skill which have a real cooldown, not the 5-10sec CD from swapping, active.

 

[Rentahamster]

I imagine they want the system to be a little more grokkable and elegant, though.

Seems like a decent enough compromise between "skill swapping whenever you want" and "skill swapping only in town". How else are they gonna do it?

As long as it fulfills the following requirements it should be fine:

* Relatively fast and convenient
* Not abusable to the point where it's like you have all your skills available to you all the time.
* Feeling as if your build is "solid" in the sense that you put some thought into your skill set, which creates your identity as a player.


The reason for the 7 skill limit is so that the player is forced to make a choice. Sometimes restrictions are needed to foster good/smart gameplay. There needs to be a good reason why I would want a certain skill on my bar as opposed to another, and that choice needs to be validated via my gameplay results. If there were no restrictions at all, then we may as well just have a skillbar that is 20 slots long.

 

[John_B]

If a friend logs on and jumps into your game, you might want to swap a few skills to better fit the group play. That is natural.

I don't think it's unfair to swap skills before a boss fight. They are much more advanced encounters now, and preparation is something you do in every game.

They could make so that if your character is out of combat for 30 seconds you can change your skills.

 

[iamblades]

If a friend logs on and jumps into your game, you might want to swap a few skills to better fit the group play. That is natural.

I don't think it's unfair to swap skills before a boss fight. They are much more advanced encounters now, and preparation is something you do in every game.

They could make so that if your character is out of combat for 30 seconds you can change your skills.

^^

especially if they are really making it so you will farm the whole dungeon for loot, not just the boss, which gets rid of the only real situation I could think of where respec before bosses would be cheating, which is teleporting to a boss then respeccing out of teleport for the boss fight. Not to mention the TP cooldown which eliminates that strat anyway..

Even then, who really gives a shit? It's a game, it's supposed to be fun, not a whole bunch of 'he respecced before a boss fight so he's cheating' whining. This isn't an MMO or a competitive game, fun > balance.

All i think is needed is a 5 second meditation/cast time on accepting the skill changes, and make it so cool downs on inactive spells don't recharge so people can't swap around the long cd spells. I think the idea of long cd spells in a game like diablo is kinda silly anyway, not planning on using any of them.

 

[TheExodu5]

Sadly, I'm not having any luck forcing AA through NVidia Inspector. Hmmm.

 

[Cipherr]

If a friend logs on and jumps into your game, you might want to swap a few skills to better fit the group play. That is natural.

I don't think it's unfair to swap skills before a boss fight. They are much more advanced encounters now, and preparation is something you do in every game.

They could make so that if your character is out of combat for 30 seconds you can change your skills.

Yes, see this I agree with. OOC for 30 seconds or so works, and if you cannot change in combat. That would be just fine. What I dont want is the 7 skill cap to be worthless because you can just swap whatever whenever. That would handily defeat the purpose.

Let folks swap before bosses, or on different levels or before certain encounters all they want. But make it only available outside of combat when you havent fought in X amount of seconds.

 

[Valnen]

IM IN IM IN IM IN IM IN!

Oh jeeze. I'm jealous. I *really* want to see if it will run on my computer due to being below minimum specs...was below for Rift and I could run that, so we'll see :x.

Congrats.

 

[TheExodu5]

Oh jeeze. I'm jealous. I *really* want to see if it will run on my computer due to being below minimum specs...was below for Rift and I could run that, so we'll see :x.

Congrats.

If you can Rift, you can run this.

 

[KScorp]

fun > balance

This is wrong on a lot of levels. They're not even comparable.

But I have to say I'm really feeling confused with how they're going about this skill switching in the middle of combat. It's like Blizz is stuck between deciding being able to use all the skills at any time, versus being stuck to a specific handful and making the player deal with their choice for the entire time. On the one hand, it makes sense for cooldown and synergy reasons, on the other it doesn't because the only thing differentiating two characters will be equipment and rune choices. Yes, D3 is all about the loot but... there's something about having every player being able to use nearly every build ever at nearly any time that just seems weird to me. At the same time runes greatly limit what skills will work well together...

ARGH. Not being able to mess with the system first hand is just making me scratch my head over problems which might not even exist. I have to just sit back and wait for the damn game to come out.

 

[Valnen]

If you can Rift, you can run this.

Good to know. I'm almost wondering if I have a better chance to get in once closed actually starts, to see if they'll test my setup and possibly alter the system requirements based on it before release =p.

Probably not >.>.

 

[iamblades]

This is wrong on a lot of levels. They're not even comparable.

Any arguments as to why balance is so important that there needs to be some arbitrary restriction or a penalty for playing in the style that seems most fun for you? No one is harmed if someone want's to respec before boss fights if that is the playstyle that is most fun for them..

Fun is indeed greater than balance. Now you need a certain amount of balance for something to be any fun, but that balance in this game is in terms of making sure everyone has a fun challenge to reward ratio. Which is not really affected by someone respecing before every boss, just like it's not affected by the guy who builds detailed spreadsheets to create the mathematically ideal build. You don't balance around silly OCD edge cases at the expense of the majority who just want to have fun playing a goddamned game.

 

[pieatorium]

Still been looking at the skills calculator, I really hope they change the crimson rune effect for the wizards familiar, a 40% damage boost for all attacks just seems way to strong. Compare it to the passive skill glass cannon you get twice the bonus without the drawback. I know it's the effect of the highest level rune shown but even at a 20% boost I dont think i could make a build that doesn't have it in it just seems way too good.

 

[KScorp]

Any arguments as to why balance is so important that there needs to be some arbitrary restriction of a penalty for playing in the style that seems most fun for you? No one is harmed if someone want's to respec before boss fights if that is the playstyle that is most fun for them..

Fun is indeed greater than balance. Now you need a certain amount of balance for something to be any fun, but that balance in this game is in terms of making sure everyone has a fun challenge to reward ratio. Which is not really effected by someone respecing before every boss, just like it's not affected by the guy who builds detailed spreadsheets to create the mathematically ideal build. You don't balance around silly OCD edge cases at the expense of the majority who just want to have fun playing a goddamned game.

"Here, have this spell which instantly kills the boss! It's useless against other monsters though." FUN!

I'm not referring to if being able to respec is balanced or not, I'm saying balance is crucial to having fun. They're not comparable because they're intertwined, I find it hard to think of a situation where it would be a good idea to introduce imbalance for the sake of fun in a game like D3. That is, something being way too easy or too hard, or having some characters feel a lot weaker than others. It may not be an MMO or competition, but it does have cooperation. The last thing I want to see in a D3 is having a required class/set of skills in order to pass a dungeon, or having a set of skills absolutely plow through everything no problem. That's what I'm referring to as balance. The respec situation is something else entirely, which I've edited into my previous post.

 

[Cipherr]

Still been looking at the skills calculator, I really hope they change the crimson rune effect for the wizards familiar, a 40% damage boost for all attacks just seems way to strong. Compare it to the passive skill glass cannon you get twice the bonus without the drawback. I know it's the effect of the highest level rune shown but even at a 20% boost I dont think i could make a build that doesn't have it in it just seems way too good.

I have been wondering if the 40% was for the familiars attacks which are weak, or the wizards. But everyone seems to think its the wizards so maybe Im just wrong there. But yeah, thats such a strong bonus that it makes it required.

 

[iamblades]

"Here, have this spell which instantly kills the boss! It's useless against other monsters though." FUN!

I'm not referring to if being able to respec is balanced or not, I'm saying balance is crucial to having fun. They're not comparable because they're intertwined, I find it hard to think of a situation where it would be a good idea to introduce imbalance for the sake of fun in a game like D3. That is, something being way too easy or too hard, or having some characters feel a lot weaker than others. It may not be an MMO or competition, but it does have cooperation. The last thing I want to see in a D3 is having a required class/set of skills in order to pass a dungeon, or having a set of skills absolutely plow through everything no problem. That's what I'm referring to as balance. The respec situation is something else entirely, which I've edited into my previous post.

Your example is one of shitty game design, not a fault in the respec system.

My point is that pointing out the fact that people could potentially abuse the respec system to farm dungeons 5% more efficiently does not make a compelling argument to add restrictions and penalties to it that would make the game less fun for the vast majority of people.

 

[pieatorium]

I have been wondering if the 40% was for the familiars attacks which are weak, or the wizards. But everyone seems to think its the wizards so maybe Im just wrong there. But yeah, thats such a strong bonus that it makes it required.

Maybe it is just the familiar but the wording makes it sound like a buff for the wizard

 

[Pixel Pete]

ERROR_12

 

[KScorp]

Your example is one of shitty game design, not a fault in the respec system.

My point is that pointing out the fact that people could potentially abuse the respec system to farm dungeons 5% more efficiently does not make a compelling argument to add restrictions and penalties to it that would make the game less fun for the vast majority of people.

I agree, I think we're arguing two different things, and I may have been unclear. It's natural to have certain builds have varying effectiveness in different situations, and I'm not entirely against being able to switch skills between combat phases (I have no clue how it would affect my enjoyment of the game if at all, although I'm pessimistic in that regard). I simply disliked your "fun > balance" way of thinking, because it makes it seem like the balance of the game and fun are two separate entities which can be individually adjusted, while they're both important to consider at the same time. In D3, if you have imbalances, a lot of people (such as myself) aren't going to have much fun knowing there's an "easy mode" build, although it's possible to have a balanced but unfun game. I was NOT, by any means, saying "balance > fun".

My negative feeling towards being able to change skills whenever is just personal opinion and preference, even though I'm open to it.

Also, I sort of misunderstood how you used balance, so my mistake. Forgive my exaggerated spell description.

 

[squidyj]

"Here, have this spell which instantly kills the boss! It's useless against other monsters though." FUN!

I'm not referring to if being able to respec is balanced or not, I'm saying balance is crucial to having fun. They're not comparable because they're intertwined, I find it hard to think of a situation where it would be a good idea to introduce imbalance for the sake of fun in a game like D3. That is, something being way too easy or too hard, or having some characters feel a lot weaker than others. It may not be an MMO or competition, but it does have cooperation. The last thing I want to see in a D3 is having a required class/set of skills in order to pass a dungeon, or having a set of skills absolutely plow through everything no problem. That's what I'm referring to as balance. The respec situation is something else entirely, which I've edited into my previous post.

At a certain point, most builds are going to plow through everything. That's what happens in Diablo, you get stronger and stronger and eventually you're strong enough to mow down the entirety of Inferno difficulty at once with a single spell cast (I might be exaggerating). Whether that happens sooner or later for a specific 'build' of a class is irrelevant and too much focus on so called balancing will KILL the fun of Diablo. There are a few things that are cool in diablo

1. Blowing stuff up, Like a boss
2. Finding crazy rare pieces of loot
3. Ridiculous builds (Bear sorc comes to mind).

Too much 'balancing' kills the awesomeness of sweet rare loot, it seems like you'd be looking to reign in damage so the awesomeness of pewpewpew would disappear, and the ability to do stupid awesome stuff that 1-shots an entire room with the best 0.0001% of gear, would just be plainly unacceptable under the new regime.

Balance doesn't have the place in D3 that it does in an MMO because the progression of players through D3 is fundamentally different than the progression through an MMO like WoW. It doesn't need to be so carefully metered out here. Everything in D2 was soloable (with the exception of Uber Tristram for a lot of builds) and that's not really going to change in D3. The only case where balance needs to come into play is when there's a class that can't cut it.

To sum up, if there's another hammerdin lurking in wait in Diablo 3, that's fine, because chances are it comes alongside a javazon, a lightning sorc, a fishymancer, a trapsin, and a windy druid.

 

[Gromph]

Invitation arrived!

 

[TheExodu5]

Finished a single playthrough of the beta with the Wizard. Arcane Orb is great, and Wave of Force is incredibly satisfying.

Barb is really damned fun. Bashing enemies across the screen is just so damned satisfying. I crafted a 25dps fire hammer, and I'm rocking everything in the beta.

 

[Corky]

Finished a single playthrough of the beta with the Wizard. Arcane Orb is great, and Wave of Force is incredibly satisfying.

Barb is really damned fun. Bashing enemies across the screen is just so damned satisfying. I crafted a 25dps fire hammer, and I'm rocking everything in the beta.

hey man you mentioned you couldn't force AA in inspector.

Did you check and try the bits for WoW or SC2 ? From what I know MSAA is the only thing I could force in SC2 and it works quite well actually.

 

[TheExodu5]

hey man you mentioned you couldn't force AA in inspector.

Did you check and try the bits for WoW or SC2 ? From what I know MSAA is the only thing I could force in SC2 and it works quite well actually.

I didn't try any compatibility bits, no.

 

[Raide]

So Jealous.

*goes back to playing some D2*

*sobs*

 

[TheExodu5]

Alright, first AA test using the Starcraft 2 compatibility bits (0x000030C1). Apologies for 1680*1050...I didn't bring my 1080p screen with me to my LAN.

No AA:

4x AA:

4x AA produces a noticeably blurrier image than no AA. It seems to me as if the AA was applied to the entire screen, instead of just edges (though not the HUD).

 

[Pixel Pete]

I think of those two I prefer the non-aa version. AA is one of those things that is mitigated by motion compared to a still image, as well you know im sure.

 

[V_Arnold]

Yeahl, like lack of AA in SCII that I NEVER noticed. Never ever.

 

[Arcblade]

Seems like a decent enough compromise between "skill swapping whenever you want" and "skill swapping only in town". How else are they gonna do it?

As long as it fulfills the following requirements it should be fine:

* Relatively fast and convenient
* Not abusable to the point where it's like you have all your skills available to you all the time.
* Feeling as if your build is "solid" in the sense that you put some thought into your skill set, which creates your identity as a player.


The reason for the 7 skill limit is so that the player is forced to make a choice. Sometimes restrictions are needed to foster good/smart gameplay. There needs to be a good reason why I would want a certain skill on my bar as opposed to another, and that choice needs to be validated via my gameplay results. If there were no restrictions at all, then we may as well just have a skillbar that is 20 slots long.

No.

The reason for the 7 skill limit (no matter what else might have been asserted) is to facilitate console versions.

Believe.

 

[V_Arnold]

No.

The reason for the 7 skill limit (no matter what else might have been asserted) is to facilitate console versions.

Believe.

I am sad that a well thought-out and reasonable argument gets this kind of response. Take the time into the post if you really want to argue about something like that. You might just as well say that skill point restrictions are the sign of a console version of D2. Bullshit.

 

[Arcblade]

I am sad that a well thought-out and reasonable argument gets this kind of response. Take the time into the post if you really want to argue about something like that. You might just as well say that skill point restrictions are the sign of a console version of D2. Bullshit.

Sure thing, chief.

I cannot wait for the inevitable console release, and your followup herp-derp-defense of this post.

 

[MrKnives]

Raphier, is that you?

Edit: But seriously. If it's 7 only because of consoles what would be an appropriate number? And why does consoles limit it to 7.

 

[Arcblade]

Raphier, is that you?

Edit: But seriously. If it's 7 only because of consoles what would be an appropriate number? And why does consoles limit it to 7.

Hmmm.

All would be an appropriate number, much like D2.

4 face buttons + 4 shoulder is rather limiting, especially considering the need for pots, inventory and other screens, and other functions.

 

[MrKnives]

Hmmm.

All would be an appropriate number, much like D2.

4 face buttons + 4 shoulder is rather limiting, especially considering the need for pots, inventory and other screens, and other functions.

But you barely even had that number of useful spells in DII? Yeah granted you have an option to use every spell you ever wanted and die but so does DIII with the ability to swap spells.

Edit: Typo

 

[pieatorium]

At best you could max 5 skills in d2 at 99 with all quests done, depending on your build maybe not even 5 when prerequisite skills come into the equation. Some support/utility skills you didn't need to max for them to be useful though.

edit: alot of builds required at least one passive to be useful aswell so the number of usable spells gets cut down further.

 

[Arcblade]

But you barely even had that number of useful spells in DII? Yeah granted you have an option to use every spell you ever wanted and die but so does DIII with the ability to swap spells.

Edit: Typo

To be fair, bc, bo, shout, leap, hork, ww, berserk, and basic attack constitute 8 skills.

Basic attack is a skill bar allocation still in D3, is it not?

EDIT: also, town portal.

 

[FieryBalrog]

Yeah, no one really maxed 5 skills in D2. First of all, less than 1% of people ever reached level 99. I think people are forgetting just how ridiculous that grind was. Most people stopped in the mid to late 80s. Secondly, most builds focused on 2 skills and synergies. Synergies actually reduced the number of active skills people used. For multiple classes you also had to dump points into passives (Sorc, Barb, Amazon).

 

[V_Arnold]

Sure thing, chief.

I cannot wait for the inevitable console release, and your followup herp-derp-defense of this post.

Herp-derp, dude? Whether console versions come or not has nothing to do with the skill limitations. No D2 build used more than 6-7 skills (and that was only with curse-heavy Necros, nothing else used that much active skills anyway), so that must have been because of CONSOLISATION!

 

[Arcblade]

Yeah, no one really maxed 5 skills in D2. First of all, less than 1% of people ever reached level 99. I think people are forgetting just how ridiculous that grind was. Most people stopped in the mid to late 80s. Secondly, most builds focused on 2 skills and synergies. Synergies actually reduced the number of active skills people used. For multiple classes you also had to dump points into passives (Sorc, Barb, Amazon).

Synergies didn't exist, pre-.10.

 

[witchedwiz]

limited to 7 skills???
can you use another skill incombat (if not fast rebind incombat) or your out of luck and stuck with that skills à-la-guild wars?

 

[Duki]

lmao talking about 1.10 and onwards as if it defined diablo 2

hitting level 99 being hard lol

synergies and shit lmao

good joke guys

they had to get rid of being able to use all the skills because they got rid of skill points

this way if you had access to all the skills it would be like having every skill in d2 maxed as soon as you got it

i very much prefer the d2 system though the new one seems pointless

 

[FieryBalrog]

Synergies didn't exist, pre-.10.

Yeah, and? They have for the past 8 years.

hitting level 99 being hard lol

Yeah, not if you were running a bot, "lmao". Otherwise, welcome to several thousand baal runs of following someone elses bot around, since Baal is the only mob in the game who gave experience after level 90 or so.

 

[V_Arnold]

Wow, we entered the realm of the Angry Hardcore.
Time to abandon ship.

 

[Arcblade]

Yeah, and? They have for the past 8 years.

Read the post above yours.

Thanks.

 

[FieryBalrog]

Read the post above yours.

Thanks.

I wasn't responding to that post.

 

[Arcblade]

I wasn't responding to that post.

Lmao.

In that case, you weren't responding to mine either.

Learn to correctly infer, or else, as I said, read the post above yours so that you may have it kindly spelled out for you.

 

[FieryBalrog]

Lmao.

In that case, you weren't responding to mine either.

Learn to correctly infer, or else, as I said, read the post above yours so that you may have it kindly spelled out for you.

I was responding to pieatorium, which is why I start talking about "maxing 5 skills". After which you responded to my post. In any case, V_Arnold is right, I'm outta here while this super-smug snark-fest goes down. Enjoy.