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[Rentahamster]

How is it a problem that they're hosing people that were doing just fine previously? I guess if you've got plenty of gold, it's not.

It's only hosing you if you took advantage of the gear swap mechanic to give you access to all the benefits of 300% MF without any of the drawbacks. Making people feel like they have to do this to stay competitive is bad game design.

Why is mf such a hot topic we have 3 pages devoted to debating how it does/doesnt suck? Its available to everyone, if you don't like swapping gear, build a suit to use all the time.

No one is at a disadvantage, its all available for everyone.

You can't simply just build a MF suit to use all the time.

Cost to get base 200% MF on shit gear that you can just swap out before the kill: around 300k.

Cost to get base 200% MF on gear that is as good as your normal DPS gear: millions.

 

[LordCanti]

Why is mf such a hot topic we have 3 pages devoted to debating how it does/doesnt suck? Its available to everyone, if you don't like swapping gear, build a suit to use all the time.

No one is at a disadvantage, its all available for everyone.

This is pretty much exactly my point. People could already build an entire set of MF gear that was actually decent gear. It cost a lot, but it was doable. People that couldn't afford that could take the risk of swapping mid-fight.

Most of their proposed solutions seem to be screwing over only the people that swap (except for option one). It's the option most likely to send people to the RMAH for more MF gear, so I guess I can see their reasoning.

It's only hosing you if you took advantage of the gear swap mechanic to give you access to all the benefits of 300% MF without any of the drawbacks. Making people feel like they have to do this to stay competitive is bad game design.

I'd say trying to get into MF gear in the face of a champ mob is somewhat of a drawback...

The point is, choices 2-5 do absolutely nothing to help anyone that was MF swapping stay "competitive". It basically just destroys any chance they previously had. Building an MF set was always a choice.

(To be clear, I'm talking about Blizzard's options, not the ones you are presenting. Yours do sound better than theirs.)

 

[RDreamer]

How is it a problem that they're hosing people that were doing just fine previously? I guess if you've got plenty of gold, it's not.

Blizzard is all over the place. First Inferno is too hard (the only endgame they've got) so they nerf if. Then players are stacking IAS a bit too high, so they nerfed that. Finally, due to constant complaints, they made the highest tier items in the game drop like candy from enemies that pose no real threat (anything in Act 1, if you are a competent player). Seeing that they've gone too far with how easy it is to get top tier loot, now they want to stick it to anyone that uses the MF system to bolster that.

All of that, and there is still no end game content (other than the RMAH).

Jesus you guys can get crazy over this stuff... Blizzard isn't trying to stick it to anything. They're trying to balance their damned game. Yeah they should have done this stuff before it came out, but they didn't. The IAS nerf wasn't to stick it to anyone either. They realized that people felt compelled to only go for that one stat, and that makes for a pretty shitty game overall when one stat is overpowered. Yeah it sucks if you stacked that, but what sucked more is the entire game being dragged down by that.

It's really the same thing here. They're not trying to stick it to anyone that switches gear. They realize people feel compelled to do that, because it's the best thing to do. That's the problem. It shouldn't be the best thing to do, and so they need to fix it. This isn't them fucking anyone over. They're fixing objectively bad game design.

And really I don't get why people doing the swap are moaning now. If they nerfed things to hell and back you'd be the only ones that got to use that "exploit" for a while. You'd still have a large advantage over every other player on into the future. They're not going to do that, though. Their changes seem like they should be fairer and fix things up.

This is pretty much exactly my point. People could already build an entire set of MF gear that was actually decent gear. It cost a lot, but it was doable. People that couldn't afford that could take the risk of swapping mid-fight.

Most of their proposed solutions seem to be screwing over only the people that swap (except for option one). It's the option most likely to send people to the RMAH for more MF gear, so I guess I can see their reasoning.

Really dude? Really? Get off the tin foil hat and take a breath.

Look, the "risk" of swapping mid-flight is clearly the best option of anything, otherwise this wouldn't be a problem. That's not a tradeoff and even if it was, it's not the tradeoff they want you to make. They want you to think about trading off stats for it. This is a stats and loot based game. You need to make a decision on your loot. That's the point.

 

[jkanownik]

First legendary. Roll Vitality, Crit Damage and Socket on 3 random properties and it still sucks. Wormwood staff FTL.

 

[Rentahamster]

People that couldn't afford that could take the risk of swapping mid-fight.

That's the thing, there is hardly any risk or cost to doing that, as many many players continue to do that very thing, even if they find it to be a pain in the ass.

 

[Totakeke]

Dying removes one valor stack, but repeated deaths cannot lower your NV below 5.

Man, every patch is a DH nerf.

 

[Vodh]

Why is mf such a hot topic we have 3 pages devoted to debating how it does/doesnt suck? Its available to everyone, if you don't like swapping gear, build a suit to use all the time.

No one is at a disadvantage, its all available for everyone.

If you don't like gear swapping spend an extra 40 million on your gear? No, thanks, I'm with blizz on this one.

 

[Rentahamster]

I'd say trying to get into MF gear in the face of a champ mob is somewhat of a drawback...

I did it quite easily with both Wiz and DH, as do many other players.

The point is, choices 2-5 do absolutely nothing to help anyone that was MF swapping stay "competitive". It basically just destroys any chance they previously had. Building an MF set was always a choice.

It helps them by letting them know they don't have to do that anymore. They won't be able to take advantage of it, but neither will anyone else, which is one of the main points.

(To be clear, I'm talking about Blizzard's options, not the ones you are presenting. Yours do sound better than theirs.)

Thanks

 

[Rentahamster]

Man, every patch is a DH nerf.

They'll still have just as much NV as they do now, since you can't ever go below 5 NV stacks via death.

 

[eek5]

It helps them by letting them know they don't have to do that anymore. They won't be able to take advantage of it, but neither will anyone else, which is one of the main points.

)

It's worth keeping in mind that if we do implement a method to alleviate gear-swapping in combat, we'll simultaneously be looking at ways for players to get an added MF bonus to compensate.

For example we implement one of the options and could... maybe buff up NV stacks with additional magic find, which could/would compensate for MF lost due to any solutions. We don't want anyone thinking we're trying to take their magic find away. We're trying to help alleviate some of the complaints about tedium and loss of inventory space while helping you keep the benefits.

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/6008841823#1


Also, they'd be buffing MF in some way that would benefit everyone.

 

[Totakeke]

The whole issue from the start is that every patch seems to take away options from people playing the game without introducing anything new (except for the Inferno nerf). Why would anyone that just wants to enjoy the game be happy about any of these changes? All changes so far only matter to people who care about other people gaining an edge over them as if this was that much of a competitive game.

 

[LordCanti]

Jesus you guys can get crazy over this stuff... Blizzard isn't trying to stick it to anything. They're trying to balance their damned game. Yeah they should have done this stuff before it came out, but they didn't. The IAS nerf wasn't to stick it to anyone either. They realized that people felt compelled to only go for that one stat, and that makes for a pretty shitty game overall when one stat is overpowered. Yeah it sucks if you stacked that, but what sucked more is the entire game being dragged down by that.

It's really the same thing here. They're not trying to stick it to anyone that switches gear. They realize people feel compelled to do that, because it's the best thing to do. That's the problem. It shouldn't be the best thing to do, and so they need to fix it. This isn't them fucking anyone over. They're fixing objectively bad game design.

And really I don't get why people doing the swap are moaning now. If they nerfed things to hell and back you'd be the only ones that got to use that "exploit" for a while. You'd still have a large advantage over every other player on into the future. They're not going to do that, though. Their changes seem like they should be fairer and fix things up.





Really dude? Really? Get off the tin foil hat and take a breath.

Look, the "risk" of swapping mid-flight is clearly the best option of anything, otherwise this wouldn't be a problem. That's not a tradeoff and even if it was, it's not the tradeoff they want you to make. They want you to think about trading off stats for it. This is a stats and loot based game. You need to make a decision on your loot. That's the point.

I'm not worked up, and there is no tin foil hat. This is absolutely a stats and loot based game, but there is no end game content to make that treadmill worth it. You may look at the situation as glass half full and figure that people will farm and farm and scrimp and save gold until they can afford the MF gear to get them back to where they were previously, but I think a lot of people will just settle for the MF they get from NV and call it good. People with a ton of gold will still have MF on their main gear (just like they already do) and these changes won't touch them at all.

It helps them by letting them know they don't have to do that anymore. They won't be able to take advantage of it, but neither will anyone else, which is one of the main points.

On this subject, I agree with Totakeke's post.

 

[Tess3ract]

So what's all this fuss about linux users getting banned?

 

[Rentahamster]

People with a ton of gold will still have MF on their main gear (just like they already do) and these changes won't touch them at all.

Yeah, this is also why I'm partial to having some kind of MF cap on gear as well, in response to suffah, who asked why I want a 100% MF cap on gear.

 

[KittenMaster]

I'm late to the party, but a MF cap is the only solution I liked what they listed (especially since it's the solution that should've applied to IAS). Every other solution is either too convoluted for what's supposed to be a simple stat, or is dumb (losing a stack of NV? REALLY? There needs to be fewer ways of losing NV, not more.)

 

[Rentahamster]

On this subject, I agree with Totakeke's post.

I'm all for giving players choices too, but MF gear swap is not a choice more than it is a necessity. Gear swapping costs only a few hundred thousand gold and some inconvenience. MF on good gear costs millions of gold. These two choices are not balanced at all.

When one choice is so overwhelmingly more beneficial than the other, there isn't much choice at all. That's why so many people are complaining that they feel "forced" to gear swap.

 

[thatbox]

Why not just prevent gear swapping in combat, like they've done for certain WoW slots? It boggles my mind that they've already faced a similar problem yet seem stymied on how to address it.

 

[LordCanti]

I'm all for giving players choices too, but MF gear swap is not a choice more than it is a necessity. Gear swapping costs only a few hundred thousand gold and some inconvenience. MF on good gear costs millions of gold. These two choices are not balanced at all.

When one choice is so overwhelmingly more beneficial than the other, there isn't much choice at all. That's why so many people are complaining that they feel "forced" to gear swap.

We're talking in circles at this point

Yeah, they (me included) were forced to gear swap. If they implement any of the choices after one, they'll have taken that possibility away from me, supposedly for my...mental health? So I don't have to feel compelled?

It's ridiculous. If they call it an economy issue, it's nothing compared to the loot hotfix of doom that they implemented not that long ago. They want people to be able to farm gear to progress in Inferno, but they don't want them to do it as well as they're currently doing it....which they were only able to do because of their "fix"....

O_O

one easy way to solve gear swaping



MAKE THE LOOT NOT SHIT BLIZZARDO

The loot is overwhelmingly not shit right now compared to how it was though.

 

[Technosteve]

one easy way to solve gear swaping



MAKE THE LOOT NOT SHIT BLIZZARDO

 

[Neki]

To be able to kill Diablo with 20 NV, you'd have to start at Act II, and not die more often than you kill champ packs. It's a decent enough challenge, and I figure if the player is able to play for an extended period of time, he should be rewarded for it. It makes quick, throwaway runs feel less necessary, and allows you to get good rewards by just playing the game through.

Even if you can steamroll act 1 and 2 in 1 hour, that doesn't necessarily mean you can keep it up into act 3 and 4 without dying too much.

Quick 20 minute playsessions where you kill 8-10 elite packs would still be a good way of farming, if your playstyle suits that better.

I could easily get 20 stacks starting from Act 3, what are you talking about? Act 3 alone has 20 elites plus. I'm saying there shouldn't be an incentive for farming for 2 hours straight, because most people can't do that.

Actually its fair. A person who spends an hour should get more benefit than a person that spends using a few waypoints and kill 5 packs and than a boss in 20m.

I don't see how that's fair, why should a bigger time investment give a better reward? Because you have more time consecutively, you should get better loot? If I can only play in 20 minute bursts 3 times, and you can play for an hour straight, why do you get extra benefits even though we're playing the same length?

 

[tn2007]

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/6008841823#1


Also, they'd be buffing MF in some way that would benefit everyone.

Buff NV, get rid of magic find on gear and call it a day. Everyone will be on equal grounds.

 

[Liferebooted]

I could easily get 20 stacks starting from Act 3, what are you talking about? Act 3 alone has 20 elites plus. I'm saying there shouldn't be an incentive for farming for 2 hours straight, because most people can't do that.

bots can!

 

[Dahbomb]

I'm saying there shouldn't be an incentive for farming for 2 hours straight, because most people can't do that.

Hence.... why it should have a bigger reward.

Not really following the argument here.

I don't see how that's fair, why should a bigger time investment give a better reward? Because you have more time consecutively, you should get better loot? If I can only play in 20 minute bursts 3 times, and you can play for an hour straight, why do you get extra benefits even though we're playing the same lengt

The game already does this. Like someone who plays for 5 minutes 10 times is rewarded way less than a person who plays 50 minutes at a stretch because of the NV. This is just taking it to the next level which I am totally on board with. It gives more incentive to keep on playing without quitting the game.

 

[LordCanti]

bots can!

Bots don't fight champ mobs.

 

[Neki]

Hence.... why it should have a bigger reward.

Not really following the argument here.

Because people who need the items the most aren't the people with unlimited time? You're basically creating a bigger gap between the poor and the rich.

Hence.... why it should have a bigger reward.

Not really following the argument here.


The game already does this. Like someone who plays for 5 minutes 10 times is rewarded way less than a person who plays 50 minutes at a stretch because of the NV. This is just taking it to the next level which I am totally on board with. It gives more incentive to keep on playing without quitting the game.

The cut off has to be somewhere. If you can only play for 5 minutes, you can't even reach 5 stacks. I would think a 20-30 minute playtime is reasonable for any person, while a 5 minute or 2 hour playtime is not reasonable for the normal person.

 

[eek5]

Buff NV, get rid of magic find on gear and call it a day. Everyone will be on equal grounds.

That's more or less what option 1 and capping it at 100MF would do

 

[Rentahamster]

I could easily get 20 stacks starting from Act 3, what are you talking about? Act 3 alone has 20 elites plus. I'm saying there shouldn't be an incentive for farming for 2 hours straight, because most people can't do that.

I think you glossed over the part where I wrote that you are only able to increase the potential max NV stack after 5 by completing main quests.

 

[Dahbomb]

Because people who need the items the most aren't the people with unlimited time? You're basically creating a bigger gap between the poor and the rich.

People who put in less time with the game get less rewards than people who put in more time.

Again... I don't see how this is unfair. If you don't have the items you want then you do Act runs... how is this any different from how it is structured now?

 

[Rentahamster]

Bots don't fight champ mobs.

Yep. They don't complete the story quests, either.

 

[Neki]

I think you glossed over the part where I wrote that you are only able to increase the max NV stack after 5 by completing main quests.

I did miss that, I don't see how encouraging 2 act clears is any better than what we have now though.

 

[Liferebooted]

Bots don't fight champ mobs.

not hard with monks if geared even in act3

 

[tn2007]

That's more or less what option 1 and capping it at 100MF would do

Than I choose option 1. I just love how they act like there helping us.

We're trying to help alleviate some of the complaints about tedium and loss of inventory space while helping you keep the benefits.

Simple solution go back to diablo 2 and allow us have two sets of gear.

 

[eek5]

Simple solution go back to diablo 2 and allow us have two sets of gear.

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/6009371708#17

Parting the veils a little bit here...

There was some debate about Magic Find gear swapping before the game shipped. Some of our developers and testers thought it was fun way to game the system, while others felt it was too much of a hassle. In the end, we decided to allow gear swapping, thinking that the players who wanted to do it would, and the players who don't enjoy the practice wouldn't. Of course, what actually happened is that some players got caught in the crossfire -- players who didn't really enjoy gear swapping or want to carry around an extra set of MF gear all the time, but felt like they had to in order to be as efficient as possible.

So, when Wyatt says we "didn't have a problem with it philosophically," it means we were aware of the practice of gear swapping and understood that the player base had differing opinions on it, but didn't want to make any changes to it unless the community asked for it outright (since we knew it was fun for a select group of players). It did not mean it was deliberately a practice we wanted to encourage everybody to do. Supporting and promoting gear swapping by adding a button could only complicate the current problem of players feeling like the they need to gear swap in order to be really efficient, even if they don't enjoy it; it also increases the need for storage space (both server-side and in a player's inventory) and adds complexity to a UI that's otherwise designed to be very simple and straightforward.

So, more or less this:

because it is the same issue we having right now?

the idea is TO FIX PLAYERS SWAPPING TO MF GEAR BEFORE SOMETHING DIES.
NOT MAINSTREAM IT.

Right now, we're opening discussion to the community on how best to move forward. We're considering a lot of different solutions (some of which were pulled from ideas posted in these forums) and would like your feedback. We realize that there are pros and cons to every solution we listed, and want to get your take on them as well. If you have alternative ideas, please feel free to share them!

(By the way, saying that you'd prefer a button over the other options is totally valid feedback, as is saying that you'd prefer to see no change at all. Just keep in mind that our goal, if possible, is to come up with a viable solution to the problem of players feeling like they need to gear swap even if they don't actually feel like it's fun gameplay.)

 

[Dahbomb]

I did miss that, I don't see how encouraging 2 act clears is any better than what we have now though.

It will build on their philosophy of people wanting to play and hunt Elites even after they have beat bosses. Once you do like let's say Act 1, kill all the Elites and do the Butcher run... you are done and you HAVE to restart the game rather than move on to Act 2 and start killing Elites there.

If someone wants to go on an elite killing marathon then they should be allowed to do that. The NV drop after completing act discourages you from continuing.

 

[Rentahamster]

I did miss that, I don't see how encouraging 2 act clears is any better than what we have now though.

Because the only way to be able to get up to 20 NV is if you start in Act II at the earliest, and even if you do, you'd only be able to get up to 10NV at the start of Act III. That takes a lot of time to do, and balance-wise should give you roughly the same benefit as doing three 20-minute ActIII runs, if you'd prefer to do that.

 

[maharg]

Encouraging people to actually go through the story multiple times is really more punishment than anything. It was fine once, but ugh.

 

[Rentahamster]

Encouraging people to actually go through the story multiple times is really more punishment than anything. It was fine once, but ugh.

Which is why the benefit/time investment reward for that method is balanced with short runs so that players have a choice to do either one.

 

[tn2007]

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/6009371708#17

Simple solution number 2. Get rid of magic find on equipment.

 

[Rentahamster]

Simple solution number 2. Get rid of magic find on equipment.

They can't do this now that MF on gear is already established. Especially since many people spent lots of real money on their good MF gear.

 

[tn2007]

They can't do this now that MF on gear is already established. Especially since many people spent lots of real money on their good MF gear.

Tell that to the people that spent lots of real money on attack speed.

 

[Rentahamster]

Tell that to the people that spent lot of real money on attack speed.

Yes, which is why a cap would be easier to swallow rather than a complete wipe of MF on gear (even though I'd prefer a wipe of MF on gear).

 

[tn2007]

Yes, which is why a cap would be easier to swallow rather than a complete wipe of MF on gear (even though I'd prefer a wipe of MF on gear).

I agree with you there.

 

[maharg]

You know what a simple solution is? Just don't bother. I don't get what the problem is or why anyone cares. Frankly, just let us gear swap D2:LoD-style again.

 

[RDreamer]

Tell that to the people that spent lots of real money on attack speed.

They didn't completely eliminate attack speed. If you bought the best attack speed item it would still be the best attack speed item. I guess in comparison to some other stats it isn't worth as much, but the best is still the best and it still exists.

 

[Woo-Fu]

They didn't completely eliminate attack speed. If you bought the best attack speed item it would still be the best attack speed item. I guess in comparison to some other stats it isn't worth as much, but the best is still the best and it still exists.

They eliminated it as an effective build. I lost 1/3 of my attacks per second, over 1/3 of my damage and ALL of my ability to kite effectively in Act 3.

Most of my IAS gear isn't even worth 1/3 of what I paid for it at this point. Considering how much inflation we've seen since then the simple fact that my IAS gear is worth LESS tells you everything you need to know, lol.

The dagger I bought before the nerf for 11m was worth 2m after the nerf.

 

[cpp_is_king]

They eliminated it as an effective build. I lost 1/3 of my attacks per second, over 1/3 of my damage and ALL of my ability to kite effectively in Act 3.

Most of my IAS gear isn't even worth 1/3 of what I paid for it at this point. Considering how much inflation we've seen since then the simple fact that my IAS gear is worth LESS tells you everything you need to know, lol.

The dagger I bought before the nerf for 11m was worth 2m after the nerf.

Everything else is also worth less because of drop rate changes, and mobs are significantly easier which mostly makes up for the lost dps

 

[RDreamer]

They eliminated it as an effective build. I lost 1/3 of my attacks per second, over 1/3 of my damage and ALL of my ability to kite effectively in Act 3.

Most of my IAS gear isn't even worth 1/3 of what I paid for it at this point. Considering how much inflation we've seen since then the simple fact that my IAS gear is worth LESS tells you everything you need to know, lol.

The dagger I bought before the nerf for 11m was worth 2m after the nerf.

Yeah, I know all that. I was just responding that there was a bit of a difference in what they did with IAS and completely getting rid of the stat altogether on items.

 

[Woo-Fu]

Everything else is also worth less because of drop rate changes, and mobs are significantly easier which mostly makes up for the lost dps

Bullshit. My LoH dagger was worth 5m before the IAS nerf. I sold it for 50m last week. My tank doctor gear is getting more expensive every day while my IAS gear can't even be sold.

Good stuff is going up in price due to inflation, not down. IAS gear is no longer "good stuff" by itself.

If the mobs being easier "makes up" for the IAS nerf then those mobs shouldn't be made easier for anybody who wasn't running a stacked IAS build pre-nerf. Furthermore, if it "made up for it" then I still would have been able to solo farm Act 3 effectively in my nerfed IAS gear. I wasn't, proof positive that it didn't "make up for it."

The people who were stacking IAS got fucked coming and going by Blizzard with that nerf, pretending otherwise is just that: pretending. Not only did their builds no longer work, they were stuck with a bunch of gear worth fractions of what they paid for it. If they do that to MF I'll be laughing pretty hard. The people who cried loudest to nerf MF gear swap will be the ones punished the hardest.

"Be careful for what you wish for."

 

[LordCanti]

Bullshit. My LoH dagger was worth 5m before the IAS nerf. I sold it for 50m last week.

Good stuff is going up in price due to inflation, not down. IAS gear is no longer "good stuff" by itself.

If the mobs being easier "makes up" for the IAS nerf then those mobs shouldn't be made easier for anybody who wasn't running a stacked IAS build pre-nerf. Furthermore, if it "made up for it" then I still would have been able to solo farm Act 3 effectively in my nerfed IAS gear. I wasn't, proof positive that it didn't "make up for it."

The people who were stacking IAS got fucked coming and going by Blizzard with that nerf, pretending otherwise is just that: pretending. Not only did their builds no longer work, they were stuck with a bunch of gear worth fractions of what they paid for it. If they do that to MF I'll be laughing pretty hard. The people who cried loudest to nerf MF gear swap will be the ones punished the hardest.

"Be careful for what you wish for."

I was very lucky to sell all of my IAS gear after the nerf, for what it was worth pre-nerf (the same stuff is now worth 20% of what it was originally). If I had been left holding the bag, I'd still be salty.

 

[cpp_is_king]

Bullshit. My LoH dagger was worth 5m before the IAS nerf. I sold it for 50m last week.

Good stuff is going up in price due to inflation, not down. IAS gear is no longer "good stuff" by itself.

If the mobs being easier "makes up" for the IAS nerf then those mobs shouldn't be made easier for anybody who wasn't running a stacked IAS build pre-nerf.

The people who were stacking IAS got fucked coming and going by Blizzard with that nerf, pretending otherwise is just that: pretending. Not only did their builds no longer work, they were stuck with a bunch of gear worth fractions of what they paid for it. If they do that to MF I'll be laughing pretty hard. The people who cried loudest to nerf MF gear swap will be the ones punished the hardest.

"Be careful for what you wish for."

I had 2.7 aps before the nerf. I lost about 40% of my dps. Yet it was still easier to kill act 3 enemies after the nerf. I also didnt care, just like i wont care if they nerf anything else about my character

If you're going to get worked up every time they change something, then all i can say is welcome to the world of online games. Strap in for the ride.