cpp_is_king
Member
Apparently you are manually clicking each item in your inventory instead of using a scripting macro like other posters in this thread (and the game).
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Diablo III |OT4| Antiques Roadshow: Sanctuary Edition
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Apparently you are manually clicking each item in your inventory instead of using a scripting macro like other posters in this thread (and the game).
Those people are cheating and Blizzard should be targeting them. Of course that's more than they're willing to do as we've seen so far.
To be fair, I dont think any of us could have possibly known how the end game was really going to shake out. There was not enough information in that stripped down, barely a tip of the iceberg Act 1 - Skeleton King beta they gave us. I mean, there was seriously no way we could have truly known much about the end game at that point.
Remember all the insane cries about how the entire game was going to be easy and we would never die coming from people playing the beta? Now think back to Inferno Act 4 pre-nerf and all the off screen charges and whatnot causing 1 hit kills in 4 player before the nerf on defensive specced Barbs and Monks. Folks were waaaaaaaay off on that, so far off that they had to remove 45% damage from grouped play, then go and nerf Inferno even more.
But that doesn't get them off of the hook for this mess. D2 is ancient, but WoW is recent, theres no excuse for not knowing we were going to eat through this shit the way we have. And theres no excuse for not fucking beta testing the whole fucking game to have a look at how things would play out. A gods damned disaster. Its a shame because I know the game will be great, but it wont be until perhaps a year or more from now when they finally flesh out a reason to keep playing after killing Inferno Diablo.
Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
To elaborate a little more on the points specifically in your post:
Magic find is optional on paper, but using the mechanic is not completely optional in practice. Players are going to do what's optimal, at the most favorable cost/benefit. Swapping gear solely for magic find is a cheap and effective way to get better loot, therefore players will do it. Hardly much of a choice.
It also widens the disparity between ranged and melee since ranged can get away with gear swaps more easily than melee. Even D2 had this phenomenon too(MF sorcs, although a big part of that was their access to teleport as well).
There is no real choice until "the path of least resistance" is more or less all paths that a player can follow. Once most styles of play have a fairly equal cost/benefit, then the true freedom of choice can emerge. It's been proven over and over again in loot games that players will do the most stupid and boring and unfun shit possible as long is it gives them a gameplay edge.
Lessons from D2 learned: 0
Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
Being able to detect someone using an autohotkey script that clicks in a predefined space randomly at fast but humanly plausible speeds is near impossible to detect without tons of false positives. It's not reading the game memory or injecting anything, it's just moving your mouse for you.
Loot is the main draw. Here is a stat that gives you more loot. There's not much of a choice unless you deliberately ignore the benefit, as I do. I don't compromise my gear for it because even on normal it wasn't fun to play that way.
I could set up a script to switch into MF gear effortlessly and get the best of both worlds, but I choose to be 'lazy' instead.
Let NV go higher, punish loot swapping and be done with it. They implemented NV to make people play the game to find loot instead of doing boss runs or the like, they just need to go the whole way now. Other decisions (predictable/reliable chests and goblins) show that they either didn't want or know how to commit to this and they're fixing things, but they're getting there. The question is just how long it's going to take them.
How did they ever think it could be the item hunt with the AH in place, regardless of lacking end game? Gold and trading are a better return for whatever time you invest and can cut short the item hunt dramatically. They littered the game with breakable items that drop gold, ffs.
Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
This is what baffles me too. Did they seriously not even think for a second that loot pinatas with a predictable spawn that take no risk to get to would not be exploited at all?
Why do goblins and chests spawn in fixed locations? Why do they spawn in areas with no mobs? Why don't they spawn until after you've cleared a certain amount of content in a new game first?
I was very optimistic during development, given their stance on acknowledging the "path of least resistance" problem, which makes the final game even more puzzling, given how many exploitable paths of least resistance there are.
Woo-Fu
Banned
It is actually very easy to detect if people are using these tools. What it isn't easy to do is do it legally and then impose sanctions without opening yourself up to litigation.
The war against botters isn't really a technology war, it is a legal war.
There are perfectly legit reasons to have autohotkey or autoit running on your computer, you can't use its mere presence to impose sanctions. I've got most of the applications I use frequently macro'd so that I can open them with hotkeys so that I don't have to take my hand from the keyboard to use the mouse.
You start revoking licenses just because of what other software resides on somebody's computer you're going to find yourself in court.
I think the more important discussion isn't about what Blizzard can or can't do, but how much of the gameplay should they sacrifice merely to delay the efforts of the botters? What they did to chests is simply mind-boggling. "Some people are exploiting easy-to-access chests so we're going to make all chests nigh-worthless." What a brain-dead, reactionary response to something that ultimately isn't a real problem in the first place. I don't see a happy ending for that sort of adjustment. Nerfing popular gameplay just leads to the rise of some other mechanic. In a perfect world you get to a point where all approaches are equally lucrative. The interesting thing about that though is that you can do it by buffing the low-quality options instead of nerfing the high-quality options so that everything sucks.
Having a hard time pricing this ilvl63 bow (2-hand) I just found. In the interest of page loading times and my general laziness I'll forgo a picture but here are the stats:
934.5dps
150 dex
Crit Hit Increased by 71%
Gem slot
Also has 9% increased poison dart damage (lol?).
AH indicates anywhere from 10m to 120m as there aren't a lot of weapons with that sort of dps, crit and open slot.
Any ideas?
934.5dps
150 dex
Crit Hit Increased by 71%
Gem slot
Also has 9% increased poison dart damage (lol?).
AH indicates anywhere from 10m to 120m as there aren't a lot of weapons with that sort of dps, crit and open slot.
Any ideas?
I play the game to have fun and don't really care what other people are doing as long as it's something I have access to within the game. As I said earlier, I went out and bought gear with great MF, good dps, and average defense so I didn't have to go through the unfun swapping gear motion. If someone is willing to swap gear thousands of times and make hundreds more trips back to town due to smaller inventory then I think they deserved better drops.
Melee tanks become much more valuable to teams that gimp themselves for extra MF, specifically glass cannons. Eliminating MF won't change that disparity at all. Ranged will still kill faster for cheaper and be the more efficient group for MFing.
I have plenty of choices and 3 sets of gear to show for it. If MF is eliminated I'll only use 1 set of gear meaning I contribute to the economy only a third of what I do now.
You guys think MF is an issue? What about the RMAH or allowing free trading at all in these games. A college grad with a job can be running 10,000% MF.
A script clicking at a very fast, constant rate at the same exact spots every time isn't easily detectable?
Barack Lesnar
Banned
Just found this
I think it's worth a bit (a mil or something), but people in my group don't. Still in a run though so I can't check.
put an emerald in there and yeah you could get a nice sum
put it up on the AH with no buyout, start bid at anything, 1k gold whatever
And I don't have a problem with MF% necessarily. I'm talking about MF% on a gear swap, circumventing the entire tradeoff process (or need for actually decent equipment). I'm perfectly fine with MF% as a concept, though I wish the impact from gear was underplayed vs Nephalem Valor ultimately.
Don't do that. Unless you want to make a stranger very happy next time the AH goes down.
It's not a constant rate. It has random times, random placement within a defined space, etc.
cpp_is_king
Member
In what sense? That sounds like a pretty damn good deal (unless all the other stats are completely useless I guess)
UnblessedSoul
Member
I think blizzard should leave MF gear alone, all their solutions are really bad, if they have such a big problem with it they shouldn't of put it in the game in the first place, really sick of blizzard forcing stuff down our throats
I really dont know, it was more of an impulse buy more than anything.
It has 88str, 66AR, 5%elite/melee dmg red and some fire res. Good deal?
MF isn't the problem as much as acts III and IV being nearly impossible (for me anyway) I am sick of doing acts I and II over and over and over again.
Besides toying around with my spec or just exploiting crit and crit damage I don't see how I will be able to get over the act III hump. It is silly.
Besides toying around with my spec or just exploiting crit and crit damage I don't see how I will be able to get over the act III hump. It is silly.
Yeah I can do Act I/II pretty easily but Act III woops me, especially Ghom (I still can't beat him
)I'm trying to get my block % around 38-40% to survive act 3
Stupid monk in my group. We have 3 monks and a barb. 2 monks were there with the barb, and a DH, but the DH left and another came in. We were running healing mantra and conviction. So I asked the new monk if he'd switch to evasion, since it would help the group more. No use in having two of the same going at all. He doesn't answer for a minute. So I ask if he's running a mantra and which one. He says conviction. I ask again if he could switch for the group. He says how about not. wtf? Literally is there any reason at all for him to stay? I would have switched, but I had NV already, and I told him that. Silly idiot...
Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
That's great if you as an individual choose to play this way, but it is not what most people do. Blizzard needs to design the game so that players naturally play the correct way. If their only solution is, "oh you're being lazy, or you're playing it wrong", then that is clear indication that their design has failed in its goals.
Those players who are willing to swap gear are getting the benefits of magic find without any of the flaws. Reduced inventory space is trivial when you're only picking up the best of the best drops. Having an unfun game mechanic give you the best results is bad game design.
That's the problem with swapping. You're not gimping yourselves at all when you fight the mob 95% of the time with your DPS/defense gear. With swapping being a viable technique no one gives a shit about teamwork or being scared of death (ranged classes, anyway) anymore.
And this disparity is heightened even more than it otherwise would be by the ease of MF gear swapping.
It's not clicking at the same exact spots. You feed it the coordinates of your items on your screen and then it randomly clicks at any point within that predefined area, just like a human would, at randomly variable time intervals. It's quick enough to be convenient, but not fast enough that would be humanly impossible.
I don't use autohotkey, but when playing, I can manually switch out into my MF gear in 2 seconds. I used to do this all the time with my Wizard and Demon Hunter, but since I play barb now, I don't do it anymore since it's too much of a pain in the ass and my hands are busy with too many other buttons.
Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
Ranged class players don't die when swapping out MF gear at the last 2% of mob life unless they are terrible at playing.
Less inventory space doesn't matter if you are ignoring the trash drops and only picking up good stuff.
Runs don't get any slower at all. Even if runs got slower, the players still receive a better benefit of item drops per run, so it still comes out on top.
Price check!
The aftermath:
Shaweeeeet. I must have put it up for 15m buyout after it failed to sell a little higher than that.
Woo-Fu
Banned
Not true at all. You can be godlike it isn't going to matter if you get imprisoned and mortared while sporting your 10k HP DPS gear. This might have something to do with why they increased mortar range.
There are certain affix groups I don't switch to MF gear with, simply because I know it is a coin toss whether I'll kill them before they pull out a BS combo and 1-hit me. Act 1 I switch all the time, Act 2 I switch some of the time, Act 3 I don't even carry my MF gear.
Almost 13 million for a 1handed crossbow? Ouch, I haven't even been trying to sell the ones I find, even if they have apparently godlike stats because I thought there was no market to speak of.
cpp_is_king
Member
Unless the price of Stormshields has plummeted recently, yea that's a good deal. I just sold a very similar one on the RMAH yesterday for $80 (only difference was 30% block instead of 29%). I guess I'm just desensitized by expensive purchases now, because even 7M seems like a cheap item to me nowadays. Either way, that seems like a good deal.
A month of farming and I've died once because of gear swap and it was on my DH who was one-shot territory anyway. Inventory space is a hassle but the higher output makes up for it. And it doesn't really have a noticeable impact on clear speed. Even if it does, going from ~100% MF to ~300% MF is worth the extra 10 seconds per champ pack.
The downsides are negligible outside of the hassle that is "open inventory, click 10 items." Considering how useful MF% is vs NV (that is, ~80% of your max MF% is from gear), it's almost mandatory to use MF% to get the most out of your runs. And, for those who don't have the really good equipment, the best way to go about that is through swapping equipment rather than just dealing with the actual stat tradeoffs.
I suppose willpower to just not do it is possible.
SUPARSTARX
Member
Blizzard needs to stop screwing with the game.
Anyone?
EU AH is down, but price it like a 1000ish dps crit dmg/socket bow and ignore dex. Should be a lot; haven't sold bows in a while but even back then a similar bow was easily 15m.
People choose not to play that way. If the act of swapping had no downsides at all then nobody would be asking for it's removal. Players can choose whether the hassle of swapping is worth the rewards while making the game still fun. "the correct way"???
Was me saying it 5 times not enough? More deaths, slower clears, less inventory space, and most of all the hassle of actually swapping gears. Not everybody is only picking up the best drops and not everybody wants to teleport back to town after 3-4 elite groups as opposed to 7-8. I still pick up every ilvl61+ magic/rare and salvage it. Not worth what it once was but it still is extra gold with the chance of getting a brimstone.
Well, it's a different genre but you have to spend some time in the training modes for fighters if you want the best results. I'm sure many people don't find much fun in spending days to get the optimal combos at 90%+ success.
More deaths, slower clears, less inventory space, and most of all the hassle of actually swapping gears. Tanks help with the more deaths part and take a lot of the stress out of constant kiting.
The disparity is the same in both cases. Ranged classes kill faster for cheaper with or without MF. A barb buying blues with high MF and res or vit for the switch isn't that big of a deal.
In 2012 there has to be some way they can sniff out fishy behavior over hundreds of elite kills. I can't imagine Blizzard can't pay for some people to create a system that can detect this.
When I swap I only use my right hand. Left hand is on keyboard for buttons.
Like you said, it's a pain in the ass. That's a pretty big downside when talking about doing it thousands of times. Why not give those people a few more ilvl63s? lol
Well, it'll depend on your Crit Damage really. +50% Crit Damage with 5% base Crit is only a 1.025 multiplier; +5% crit makes it a 1.05 one here.
That's probably the easiest way to compare it, I guess. (1 + Crit Chance * Crit Damage) vs the Attack Speed. And then keep in mind that Crit Chance/Crit Damage will boost your per hit damage rather than per time damage.
Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
Not true at all. You can be godlike it isn't going to matter if you get imprisoned and mortared while sporting your 10k HP DPS gear. This might have something to do with why they increased mortar range.
Ok, well wizards and demon hunters don't die, then. I used to do this all the time.
Blast Processing
Member
Give every item slot on your character sheet the MF value of 1 stack of NV. If you wear anything in that slot, you don't get that bonus.
Now, if you want to play a nice, fun risk/reward game, you can start stripping off your gear in hopes that you find better loot.
Now, if you want to play a nice, fun risk/reward game, you can start stripping off your gear in hopes that you find better loot.
Why ignore the dex? Isn't that a significant amount? It is hard to find bows to compare with the 71% crit and open socket (presumably for another 70% crit).
I have no idea how it would work but I'd love to try the naked Inferno MF run for the hell of it.
A lot of nasty affixes and random trash monsters running around... unless you're wasting a lot of time fully clearing before swapping, you're likely to die at some point.
Believe it or not, people pick up ilvl61 blues and random ilvl60 armors. You may have found a more efficient way... in that case I better let Blizzard know so they can nerf it.
Even if you only pick up "good stuff" you're going to make more trips to town with less inventory space. That takes time. Plus running around swapping gear takes time... then swapping back takes time. Maybe the player won't do as many runs or will take more breaks effectively leveling out the benefit.
If the downsides didn't matter then nobody would want this changed.
NV is the only thing that guarantees rares. That's pretty significant.
I just roughly converted dex into weapon dps. Could do the same to crit dmg too I suppose: roughly a 1140 dps bow with a socket.
cpp_is_king
Member
Best way is to find a DPS spreadsheet for your character class that supports gear swap testing, and put your numbers in there and then enter the piece of gear you're gonna remove and the one you're testing. It should then tell you what your new dps will be. I don't know of one for WD, DH, or Wizard, only Monk/Barb.
Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
They can choose, but it's a false and forced choice since the benefits of MF swap outweigh the cons tremendously. That's why most people do it, as per Blizzard's post about the subject today.
I and others have already told you that your "cons" don't matter to ranged classes. It didn't matter for me when I played wiz and DH at all. You can look at the streams of other people and see that they do this too with hardly any problem.
Not everyone is only picking up the best drops, sure, but that's because they are willingly choosing to play non-optimally for whatever reason.
Like I said, your cons are not actually present in the way that people play the game currently. Tanks don't necessarily help that much since their mere presence in the game increases mob HP by over 100%, and decreases your MF since the tank can't swap out like ranged can, so most don't bother with it. Note that there are multiple posts from people complaining about how their MF got messed up due to other people joining their game.
It's a pain in the ass for melee, not for ranged. And it's even less of a pain in the ass when you can simple do it with one keystroke.
I'll be honest, I chuckled~
I honestly find it weird that so many people just don't loot blues as the gold isn't _that_ insignificant. I think salvaging everything takes too long though :x
I find the downsides irrelevant (short of it being annoying to do) and I want it changed. I want MF to be _more_ viable than it is currently but I feel that MF has to be a tradeoff stat rather than a "I swapped some gear before the last hit" stat for that to happen.
Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
Take a look at any high level Wizard of Demon Hunter stream. They all do this, with negligible impacts to run efficiency.
Um, people want this changed because the downsides don't matter. People don't like being forced to play in a way that isn't fun. Swapping gear isn't fun, but it provides too much of a benefit to ignore for most players.
Even before the NV change to guarantee 1 rare per elite kill, with 340% MF on boss kill I was still averaging a little over 1 rare per elite pack.
Price check?
I think the str/vitality stats alone make it a 500k minimum, but I don't know if Barbs value thorns that much. Not much to compare it to. I also don't know if Barbs are predisposed to cold resist more than other resistances.
I think the str/vitality stats alone make it a 500k minimum, but I don't know if Barbs value thorns that much. Not much to compare it to. I also don't know if Barbs are predisposed to cold resist more than other resistances.
Thanks. I'll see what I can get for it.
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