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Diablo III |OT4| Antiques Roadshow: Sanctuary Edition

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Rufus

Member
Should I stack that instead of Life on Hit, or is Life on Hit still where it's at for recovering hp?
LOH is great, but it's also expensive. You can get life regen for less and, assuming you kite and dodge most attacks, it should make you just as survivable. Provided that you can take a few hits before dying.
 

Zzoram

Member
Never just vendor the gear you wear while progressing. Put it up on GAH for default price so others can use your hand-me-downs.
 
Never just vendor the gear you wear while progressing. Put it up on GAH for default price so others can use your hand-me-downs.

And for god's sake put a resonable buyout - because nothing is more pissing off than seeing good gear you could use for leveling which will finish it's auction in 35 hours when you will be 10 levels above...
 
Yeah. Like the rest has mentioned...you're missing:-

Crit chance
Crit damage
attack speed
I was under the impression that attack speed wasn't a particularly great stat for Wizards. It makes a massive difference to your tooltip DPS, but there are only a couple of builds where it's of much use (mostly the ones that don't use DOTs), especially as the faster your attack speed, the faster you eat mana.
 

Definity

Member
Never just vendor the gear you wear while progressing. Put it up on GAH for default price so others can use your hand-me-downs.

Yeah, I started doing this and I basically got my gold back.

On another topic - I can now farm act1 with 5 stacks and with my MF gear on get up to 250% MF (10% from the enchantress). I still can't find shit worth anything most of the time, lol.

I did find this and was hoping I could some gold for it eventually.

iuBpAXRVoH0eA.png
 
I was under the impression that attack speed wasn't a particularly great stat for Wizards. It makes a massive difference to your tooltip DPS, but there are only a couple of builds where it's of much use (mostly the ones that don't use DOTs), especially as the faster your attack speed, the faster you eat mana.


If you use signature spells, attack speed increase is godly!
 

Tunesmith

formerly "chigiri"
I was under the impression that attack speed wasn't a particularly great stat for Wizards. It makes a massive difference to your tooltip DPS, but there are only a couple of builds where it's of much use (mostly the ones that don't use DOTs), especially as the faster your attack speed, the faster you eat mana.

AS is useful as a melee, the faster your attacks are the faster your (in my case) chain explosions happen, which in turn gives off more crits which gives more arcane power/less cooldowns and speeds up the whole cycle.

Edit: as above too.
 
This is why I shouldn't bother reading anything anyone says. It's just confusing. :)

But like I said, spec is important (signature spells, critical mass, healing blades etc).
 

scosher

Member
Hit 60 on my DH alt the other day and bought some welfare gear. The class still seems really strong. No idea how Nether Tentacles was pre-patch, but Ball Lightning is still a really fucking good skill. I don't even use a hatred generator in my build.

I thought there'd be more kiting involved with DH's, but is the basic gameplan to blow shit up before they reach you (and if they do, pop Gloom or Smoke Screen)?
 
Talking of signature spells, what are most people using on their Wizards?

I have no idea how good it is, but I've been using Shock Pulse (Piercing Orb) for a while now. Has a really good range and seems to deal with packs of enemies quite nicely. I've never really been able to get on with Magic Missile (Not enough enemies hit) or Spectral Blade (far too short range for my liking).
 
Hit 60 on my DH alt the other day and bought some welfare gear. The class still seems really strong. No idea how Nether Tentacles was pre-patch, but Ball Lightning is still a really fucking good skill. I don't even use a hatred generator in my build.

I thought there'd be more kiting involved with DH's, but is the basic gameplan to blow shit up before they reach you (and if they do, pop Gloom or Smoke Screen)?

That won't work on inferno champions ;)
 

koji

Member
Your int is very high so you can sacrifice a bit of that for crit. For example, find a glove you that can eventually afford with crit% and crit damage but with a much lower int. Your weapon is fine for now, and don't ever switch to a 2 hander.

Not a good idea for a wiz? Just bought one last night for my soon to be 60 wiz after I read they were OK (and cheap for that kind of damage)

Does it only work good for that blizzard / hydra build?

don't know shit about the class / builds / stats to stack
 

scy

Member
I was under the impression that attack speed wasn't a particularly great stat for Wizards. It makes a massive difference to your tooltip DPS, but there are only a couple of builds where it's of much use (mostly the ones that don't use DOTs), especially as the faster your attack speed, the faster you eat mana.

Attack Speed builds were the ones that didn't even use Arcane Power at all. With a high APS, you're so much better off with the more efficient Signature Spell spam than with AP spells. But, since the change, you're generally not going to want too much IAS since you'll drain AP faster than they crit to restore your AP while still not ever getting enough APS to make Signature Spell spam as rewarding as it used to be.

Should I stack that instead of Life on Hit, or is Life on Hit still where it's at for recovering hp?

Life on Hit is terribly inefficient for the return vs cost, especially for certain classes (Wizards, primarily).

Not a good idea for a wiz? Just bought one last night for my soon to be 60 wiz after I read they were OK (and cheap for that kind of damage)

Does it only work good for that blizzard / hydra build?

don't know shit about the class / builds / stats to stack

Two Handers aren't _bad_ its just that you lose a lot of potential stats by going that route instead of a 1H/Source. If you're on a super low budget, a really high DPS 2H with a Blizzard/Hydra/Arcane Orb build works fine. You just won't get as much +INT and +Crit Chance out of it.

Plus, personally, it's not very satisfying to attack that slow :(
 
It'll be a while before I go back to 1h again on my Wizard. The weapons are simply too damn expensive (to get comparable DPS to my 500k 2h I'll need to spend about 4m).

Edit - That's at about 35k DPS unbuffed.
 

linsivvi

Member
Not a good idea for a wiz? Just bought one last night for my soon to be 60 wiz after I read they were OK (and cheap for that kind of damage)

Does it only work good for that blizzard / hydra build?

don't know shit about the class / builds / stats to stack

What scy said. Besides, he already has really high int and at the point where if he can fix his crit and add a little defense he can start doing late inferno. So while a 2H might give him some marginal improvement, he'd eventually need to go back to 1H + source/shield so I think he should concentrate on upgrading his other gears before upgrading his weapon.

Edit: If you just made level 60, you will still be fine by using a 2H for a while.
 

eek5

Member
It's kind of a testament to just how expensive those same items would have been if they had rolled VIT or All Resist.

But, yeah, it's pretty cheap to gear up now.

I'm honestly surprised people even bother to list that type of equipment on the AH lol
 

scosher

Member
What's your crit chance and DPS without SS.

Without Archery or Sharpshooter passive, I'm at 25% crit chance, and 28k dps.

My defenses are pretty low, but people put up a lot of cheap shit on the AH. I try to make up the +res and Vit on pieces that can't get crit like pants, chest, and shoulders.
 

Rentahamster

Rodent Whores
Going back and reading the discussions in the Diablo 3 beta thread is hilarious.

One of my favorite posts: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=35479333&postcount=7401

duckroll said:
I think runes is basically the breaking point for me in terms of how much I'm willing to tolerate as "okay" in terms of totally streamlining the game. But at this point, it is basically indefensible that Diablo 3 is a game where there are literally zero character growth choices. The only choices any player can make is in what skills to equip at a given time, and what equipment they can find and wear.

I'm sure there are players who are okay with this, but it is pretty disappointing to me the amount of "streamlining" they are doing, which is in reality simply removing options instead of improving them. When they said that you cannot assign stats, some people were upset, but the majority said "well everyone in Diablo 2 just built the same characters for each class anyway in terms of min/max!" which was true. But instead of improving that system by making choices in stat delegation more meaningful to building different but equally effective sort of sub-class builds, they just removed that assignment feature completely. Still, not a big deal.

Then it became clear that there was no skill tree at all. Instead you get skills unlocked as you level up, and you can choose to equip a limited number of skills at a given time. This was pretty bad because it means there is no specialization at all. As you progress you cannot put a preference or priority to a certain direction in terms of what skills you want to learn. The game just decides that you learn [x] at [y] level, and that's it. But then they said that since you can only change skills in town, at altars placed late within larger dungeons, the choice of what skills you have to equip would be meaningful. Fair enough, sounds like a different sort of focus.

Now there aren't even altars anymore. Instead you can swap skills in and out whenever you want, and the only penalty is a cool down. Sure it CAN be argued that it's not a huge change, because previously you could just town portal back to town, change shit, and then come back, so now they're just removing hassle! But the hassle -is- part of what makes the decisions you pick more meaningful. By removing every single barrier, it makes the tactical decisions even more meaningless, since there is minimal penalty to making any possible bad decision.

Now finally we get to runes. A system fans have been looking forward to for a long time and it hasn't been in the beta. We've heard from people who played it at Blizzcon how fun runes were, and getting drops meant you get expanded customization functions to augment your character. Finally, they implement it into the beta and it is now a totally streamlined skill augmentation system. No drops, no choices, nothing. You are forced to keep leveling to unlock each rune, as Blizzard babysits everyone to ensure that there are NO bad choices ever made, because that might offend someone to stop playing the game, and that might be one less player who would spend money on the auction house!!!!!

Seriously, fuck this shit and fuck the mindset behind it.

I still agree with it.
 
I still agree with it.

I don't. I think the skill system in Diablo III is perhaps the one thing that puts it head and shoulders above everything else in the genre.

If you're looking for incentive to pick a build and stay with it, there's Nephelam Valor, or your own capacity to place house rules on yourself. If not, what's the problem?

Is it really a problem that we're not forced to re-level the same character class in order to try something different in the endgame? Oh, you want to re-level, using a different skill build the entire way? You can do that, if you want. Try Hardcore mode for extra permanence.

Also, the line of reasoning that everything is centered around Blizzard making megabucks off of the RMAH is tired, old, and doesn't hold much water to begin with.
 

scy

Member
While some character customization would be nice, I'm all for not having to redo entire characters because of it. This is one of those "streamlining" things that I can fully support since it aids min/max and theorycrafting by removing the tedious parts of it.

Now I just wish that the skill system actually had enough variety and depth to it to actually allow for theorycrafting out a variety of builds.

Edit: Put another way, I think the idea of the current system is far better than stat allocation and skill points. I just don't think that the contents of that system are up to par for that idea. Maybe 1.0.4 will help with this but I imagine this will take a long time to fine tune.

And then, on top of that, it'd be nice to have some real character customization, though I imagine it still won't be anything "potentially character ruining."
 

Rentahamster

Rodent Whores
Is it really a problem that we're not forced to re-level the same character class in order to try something different in the endgame?
This wasn't the main criticism of the post.

Also, the line of reasoning that everything is centered around Blizzard making megabucks off of the RMAH is tired, old, and doesn't hold much water to begin with.
That wasn't even in the post at all.
 

scy

Member
That wasn't even in the post at all.

You are forced to keep leveling to unlock each rune, as Blizzard babysits everyone to ensure that there are NO bad choices ever made, because that might offend someone to stop playing the game, and that might be one less player who would spend money on the auction house!!!!!

Since his point is "fuck the mindset" and he argues that it, at the end of the day, is to "keep more people playing so they spend more on the AH", I'd say it's a pretty big part of the post despite it being just that one line :x

Edit: As an aside, I'd have to argue there's still plenty of "bad decisions" to be made in Diablo 3. The sheer fact so many people still find Inferno insufferably hard despite spending millions of gold or so many hours of farming kind of makes this evident I'd think :|
 
Edit: As an aside, I'd have to argue there's still plenty of "bad decisions" to be made in Diablo 3. The sheer fact so many people still find Inferno insufferably hard despite spending millions of gold or so many hours of farming kind of makes this evident I'd think :|

It's kind of dumb, but I think that's Blizzard's idea of endgame. It feels to me like Normal through Hell are meant to be for the average player, and Inferno for the ones who want to take it to the next level. The fact that Inferno starts you off at max level, so that the only means of progress are in terms of gear, seems to be a clear sign that this is the case.
 

scy

Member
It's kind of dumb, but I think that's Blizzard's idea of endgame. It feels to me like Normal through Hell are meant to be for the average player, and Inferno for the ones who want to take it to the next level. The fact that Inferno starts you off at max level, so that the only means of progress are in terms of gear, seems to be a clear sign that this is the case.

I wish they had taken the extra step for Inferno and have you manually select it instead of kicking you right into it. It at least makes it clear that it's not the natural progression of things.

...that or, you know, making Inferno interestingly hard :x
 

Rentahamster

Rodent Whores
The post was about the streamlining of the game. From Diablo 2. What sort of streamlining could he be talking about, other than the fact that now character customization is possible without starting over?
The lack of player choice. There are aspects of streamlining he agrees with, as well as aspects of streamlining he disagrees with. Unnecessarily streamlining (i.e scrapping) the game mechanics instead of fixing the fundamental flaws with those game mechanics, for example.

Since his point is "fuck the mindset" and he argues that it, at the end of the day, is to "keep more people playing so they spend more on the AH", I'd say it's a pretty big part of the post despite it being just that one line :x

I took "fuck this mindset" to refer to the mindset of unnecessarily streamlining the game to fit the lowest common denominator of gamer.

"and that might be one less player who would spend money on the auction house!!!!!"
That's not "centered around Blizzard making megabucks off of the RMAH", as you put it. You could have easily replaced that with "and that might be one less player who buys our game/plays our game/enjoys our game", and it would have meant the same thing.

"centered around Blizzard making megabucks off of the RMAH" entails Blizzard deliberately designing the item system so that most players feel an overwhelming necessity to use the RMAH in order to get anywhere.

Edit: As an aside, I'd have to argue there's still plenty of "bad decisions" to be made in Diablo 3. The sheer fact so many people still find Inferno insufferably hard despite spending millions of gold or so many hours of farming kind of makes this evident I'd think :|

There are no more "bad decisions" in character growth, is what the point was. There will always be bad decisions regarding final skill selection, gear choice, gameplay style and what not.
 

scy

Member
The lack of player choice. There are aspects of streamlining he agrees with, as well as aspects of streamlining he disagrees with. Unnecessarily streamlining (i.e scrapping) the game mechanics instead of fixing the fundamental flaws with those game mechanics, for example.

Perhaps they should have. Or perhaps it wouldn't have mattered in the end and people still would have figured "optimal" builds and came to the same result. Honestly, it's a tough call either way.

I'd have wished they had tried a few more things but I'm not really at odds with what we ended up with. But I like trying out my builds with the character at max rather than going through an entire character of Normal to Nightmare to Hell to Inferno every single time I want to fool around with a build. That time spent isn't fun to me. The fun is the build itself and seeing it working.

I took "fuck this mindset" to refer to the mindset of unnecessarily streamlining the game to fit the lowest common denominator of gamer.

I should've expanded a bit. Yeah, that's the mindset but the goal of that mindset was the last line. Streamlining the game to fit the "lowest common denominator* of gamer" for the purpose of keeping players who "would spend money on the auction house!!!!!"

*Incidentally, I greatly enjoy the streamlining they've done and I've done far more than my fair share of theory work for the game :/

That's not "centered around Blizzard making megabucks off of the RMAH", as you put it. You could have easily replaced that with "and that might be one less player who buys our game/plays our game/enjoys our game", and it would have meant the same thing.

Then why even add it? Considering the discussion around the RMAH and every decision that Blizzard makes, that line does sort of stand out.

"centered around Blizzard making megabucks off of the RMAH" entails Blizzard deliberately designing the item system so that most players feel an overwhelming necessity to use the RMAH in order to get anywhere.

No, I'm fairly sure it's about Blizzard making megabucks off of the RMAH. Itemization woes are just one avenue (and the most obvious, for those making the argument) to that.

There are no more "bad decisions" in character growth, is what the point was. There will always be bad decisions regarding final skill selection, gear choice, gameplay style and what not.

Right. But there's still decisions to be had and ultimately screwing things up. It's just not detrimental to the character as a whole and "forcing" a restart.

Edit: It's not "my character" as a whole but just "my playstyle" now. And I guess that's not what people want. I get that.

Granted, a respec option could have worked as well for this.
 

Rentahamster

Rodent Whores
Edit: As an aside, I'd have to argue there's still plenty of "bad decisions" to be made in Diablo 3. The sheer fact so many people still find Inferno insufferably hard despite spending millions of gold or so many hours of farming kind of makes this evident I'd think :|

This also reminds me of several posts I made in the beta thread as well.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=35348245&postcount=7207
Rentahamster said:
they can experiment all they want near the end of Normal and the beginning of Nightmare, when it's still fun to experiment with non-viable builds. Can't do much experimenting with brand new, potentially non-viable builds in Inferno mode if you get destroyed instantly.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=35549221&postcount=7587
Rentahamster said:
duckroll said:
Right now what Blizzard is doing is building a theme park, and then forcing every player to go through a strict guided tour of all the attractions before letting anyone explore the entire park on their own. What I would prefer would be that players who wish to do so can simply plan their own journey through the park from the start.
And once you finally are able to explore the whole park, the only thing that's left to explore are the roller coasters of doom (Hell and Inferno) because you've already grown too big to ride the magic teacups (Normal).

And then, this is basically what happened in the end, like I predicted back in February:
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=35351474&postcount=7222

Rentahamster said:
Then if that's the case then Blizzard is changing what their previous stated goal of Inferno was supposed to be: a place where seasoned gamers go to get destroyed.

That leaves us with the dilemma: If Inferno is supposed to be the place to experiment on new builds, then casuals have to play up to Inferno to experience all the possible builds, which means that Inferno difficulty gets tuned down to accommodate the casuals, at the expense of the hardcore who want a high difficulty. Alternatively, if the difficulty is not turned down, then casuals are stuck with Inferno mode to experiment and die horribly, so that the hardcore are accommodated at the expense of the casuals.
 

scy

Member
This also reminds me of several posts I made in the beta thread as well.

I do agree with many of these sentiments. I really wish that (early) Hell was when you hit 60. Experiment with everything from here. Maybe even give more runes faster so you have them all by Nightmare. More time with the full kit rather than finally having everything right when you're entering Inferno. This was a pretty awful progression on their part.

Time to just make Inferno easier and make Inferno 2 with locked loot or something guys. Lets do it!
 

Rentahamster

Rodent Whores
Perhaps they should have. Or perhaps it wouldn't have mattered in the end and people still would have figured "optimal" builds and came to the same result. Honestly, it's a tough call either way.

Fixing fundamental gameplay designs instead of just scrapping everything would have been a more rewarding direction, I think. It might not have mattered in the end, sure, but we do know that one of the main design goals of the Diablo 3 skill system (many viable builds, not few optimal builds) did not come to pass.

I like trying out my builds with the character at max rather than going through an entire character of Normal to Nightmare to Hell to Inferno every single time I want to fool around with a build.
I don't have a problem with this, and I don't think duckroll did either. It was just that the "streamlining" went way too far.

Then why even add it? Considering the discussion around the RMAH and every decision that Blizzard makes, that line does sort of stand out.
Because it's not centered around the auction house, it's just one of the factors in creating a game that's "accessible" to more players, at a cost of depth and complexity.

There are additional reasons besides just the AH for those design decisions.

On the other hand, designing the game so that using the RMAH is a near necessity would have no other underlying reason other than forcing players to spend money.
 

scy

Member
Fixing fundamental gameplay designs instead of just scrapping everything would have been a more rewarding direction, I think. It might not have mattered in the end, sure, but we do know that one of the main design goals of the Diablo 3 skill system (many viable builds, not few optimal builds) did not come to pass.

Hopefully 1.0.4 fixes this.

Hopefully.

The idea itself isn't flawed, just that the execution ended up being "We have no character choices when leveling and then have two builds to choose?" which makes the system appear all the worse in the grand scheme of things.

Because it's not centered around the auction house, it's just one of the factors in creating a game that's "accessible" to more players, at a cost of depth and complexity.

Granted, I'm taking that line a bit out of context since I'm applying current "because RMAH" rhetoric to it. It's just hard to not read that line as "They streamlined the game so much so that more people stay to use the RMAH!" and see it as "Blizzard has an agenda." Perhaps it's not what duckroll meant but it's how I read it now.
 

Rentahamster

Rodent Whores
I do agree with many of these sentiments. I really wish that (early) Hell was when you hit 60. Experiment with everything from here. Maybe even give more runes faster so you have them all by Nightmare. More time with the full kit rather than finally having everything right when you're entering Inferno. This was a pretty awful progression on their part.

Yeah, this was my underlying thinking behind the revised rune system I outlined. I still don't see why giving players the choice to slot their own runes during the level up process would have been so terrible.

Time to just make Inferno easier and make Inferno 2 with locked loot or something guys. Lets do it!
I'm not sure if that would be the right course of action since they already missed the boat by making Hell too easy. Adding on yet another layer of difficulty because they screwed up the Normal->Nightmare->Hell->Inferno progression would look kinda lame.

Stuff like random map drops like what Path of Exile is doing, or endless dungeon challenges like Torchlight could be something fun.

Or, you know, they could try to be original and do something like consumable drops that modify the Act when used, like a scroll that changes Act 1 difficulty to Act 4, or doubles the amount of mobs in a game, or gives all boss packs 5 affixes. Or perhaps scrolls that modify act bosses, like a scroll that gives Diablo frozen enchant, or spawns Ghom in the same room as the Butcher, or makes Azmodan constantly regurgitate molten unicorn minions.
 

scy

Member
I'm not sure if that would be the right course of action since they already missed the boat by making Hell too easy. Adding on yet another layer of difficulty because they screwed up the Normal->Nightmare->Hell->Inferno progression would look kinda lame.

I think it'd be an interesting thing. Give it it's own gear that is only usable there and currency ala WoW Tokens and stuff. It doesn't necessarily have to be harder but be a locked progression sort of thing. Something truly optional as well.

...but, really, just something in place to augment the loot grind is all people really want, I'd imagine. Well, that and build diversity and useful Legendaries.
 

jkanownik

Member
Hit a wall in Act 2 with 39K DPS, 43K life and ~400-500 resists with War Cry active. I can absolutely steamroll act 1. The Butcher is down in <1m and no packs scare me, but I'm completely burned out on act 1 after 50+ cemetary-woods-warden-butcher runs. I'm out for now.
 
we do know that one of the main design goals of the Diablo 3 skill system (many viable builds, not few optimal builds) did not come to pass.

I don't think many viable builds and few optimal builds are mutually exclusive. In fact, I think we have both right now.

Better gear makes the non-optimal builds (and even downright bad ones) more and more viable with every upgrade.
 
Hit a wall in Act 2 with 39K DPS, 43K life and ~400-500 resists with War Cry active. I can absolutely steamroll act 1. The Butcher is down in <1m and no packs scare me, but I'm completely burned out on act 1 after 50+ cemetary-woods-warden-butcher runs. I'm out for now.

Your resists are low. Especially if that's with War Cry active. I farm act II on my Monk with 650 and it sometimes feels a little light against some of the affixes.
 
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