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Divinity: Original Sin |OT| Sandbox RPG. Co-Op friendly. Bread.

It's actually a profound challenge to write as many characters as Divinity with real personality and dimension. It's also not something you see in most media consumable writing these days; people gravitate towards the protagonist as universal filter worldview because of how it reflects on their personal experiences.

I'm curious, have you finished the game? Because I have just entered the third map and I feel like you've gotten the two games mixed up. The companions in Dragonfall are WAY more in depth and realized as people than any character in OS. Does this change significantly later on or. ...
 

Sinatar

Official GAF Bottom Feeder
It concerns me that I'm more than halfway through the game (I assume) and Zandalor hasn't appeared yet, I was hoping he had a big part in this game.

Damn near every other notable character is in the game (
Zigzax, Arhu, Theyleron, Jake, Bellagar
and probably a few I'm forgetting), they had to draw the line somewhere.
 

goblin

Member
Damn near every other notable character is in the game (
Zigzax, Arhu, Theyleron, Jake, Bellagar
and probably a few I'm forgetting), they had to draw the line somewhere.

So there are a lot of returning characters from previous games in Original Sin, then? I don't have much history with the franchise but I knew going in that D:OS is supposed to take place before Divine Divinity, and there are some reveals where I had no idea if they were just referencing the other games ("Oh it's that person!" or "Oh this is foreshadowing that thing!") or instead setting up a more direct sequel for this one. I'm pretty curious to hear how it connects to the rest of the series once more people have finished.
 

milena87

Member
Fuck yeah!
20140707_173135twsa9.jpg

20140707_173941dcshr.jpg


This brings the amount of cloth maps this year to two, which is more than any other year in this decade.

Yay, it arrived to me as well!

I'm looking at the crafting cards right now :D
 

robin2

Member
There are no henchmen in Cysel, right? My guy is a knight and I wanted something different than an extra knight in the party (I already got the mage).
 

Santiako

Member
Damn near every other notable character is in the game (
Zigzax, Arhu, Theyleron, Jake, Bellagar
and probably a few I'm forgetting), they had to draw the line somewhere.

Just realised that (after ice map spoiler)
the wizard that the witch and the conduit talk about might be Zandalor
.
 
There are no henchmen in Cysel, right? My guy is a knight and I wanted something different than an extra knight in the party (I already got the mage).

You can come across where to acquire henchmen before leaving Cyseal. (Edit: And by Cyseal, I mean the city itself not the area.)
 

Zukuu

Banned
fuck the mines. gonna buy a "turn invisible" spellbook and port my party to me via pyramids if I need to. >_< Tried to teleport all the guards into the prision, but for some reason they reset when I flee with all characters. (also found the delay turn button for the first time lmao - why are both buttons not at the bottom o_O).
 

Noaloha

Member
There are no henchmen in Cysel, right? My guy is a knight and I wanted something different than an extra knight in the party (I already got the mage).

The hiring of Henchmen is tied to your Homestead. Where finding the first key opens up your Homestead, finding another of those keys will then open up the room in which you can hire Hirelings. You can accomplish this in Cyseal before you ever have to leave town.
 

danthefan

Member
About Cecilia:
I teleported into her room where she's bathing but lost the rock/paper/scissors game, I just picked up the other teleport stone and left. Have I missed out on anything significant by losing R/P/S?
 

Spookie

Member
fuck the mines. gonna buy a "turn invisible" spellbook and port my party to me via pyramids if I need to. >_< Tried to teleport all the guards into the prision, but for some reason they reset when I flee with all characters. (also found the delay turn button for the first time lmao - why are both buttons not at the bottom o_O).

I'm guessing you don't know about the route behind the boulders to the left.
 

Levyne

Banned
About Cecilia:
I teleported into her room where she's bathing but lost the rock/paper/scissors game, I just picked up the other teleport stone and left. Have I missed out on anything significant by losing R/P/S?

I don't think so. What you got from the room is the important bit.
 

Zukuu

Banned
I'm guessing you don't know about the route behind the boulders to the left.

just found it^^. I was bored looking at my mage taking all of the 8 guys wailing on her in her perma frozen state, healing her (due to leech - so broken that talent).

edit: death knights still there and UNAVOIDABLE, even with sneaking. their path cross so I can't sneak behind them. This is by far the most stupid design so far. Glad I have invisibility. gonna grab that teleporter and port my party to it.
 

erragal

Member
I'm curious, have you finished the game? Because I have just entered the third map and I feel like you've gotten the two games mixed up. The companions in Dragonfall are WAY more in depth and realized as people than any character in OS. Does this change significantly later on or. ...

I'm not telling this to insult you: you are confusing compositional complexity for character depth.

When writing a narrative like Dragonfall every character exists to play off of the protagonist's story. While they may appear to have motivations based on detailed writing and pre-determined plots they actually only exist to allow the main character to determine more about themselves through their interactions. They are flat characters existing in a exciting narrative that revolves around the protagonist.

What makes a game like Divinity, BG2, Torment, Pillars of Eternity special is the writers don't approach non player characters as part of a branch of the main plot. They are constructed as individuals with their own personality/beliefs/background before they're incorporated into events. This way they are not simply guideposts on a egocentric journey but individuals to be encountered.

Every named npc in Divinity with dialogue trees feels like that. Even the mushrooms.

I simply didn't see that sort of design in the Shadowrun games. And it's certainly not any -better- compositionally than Divinity. Unless someone here believes fantasy writing is somehow 'easy' because you can make it all up. If that's the case than why does everyone in the Witcher games come off like an idiot...

That wasn't meant to be a slight on Shadowrun overall. They're nicrly written games with snappy dialogue using a great world lore...but snappy doesn't equate to dimension/personality. Attitude doesn't bring across motivation nearly as well as pacing and diction.

I noticed you mentioned companions: Companions are inherently written to 'grow' with your protagonist and show off story. They're fragments of deep characterization. If you're the type of individual that really enjoys that type of story they'll always pop out to you as the most real/developed people.

From a writing standpoint it's easy to give someone depth and a point of view if you have the entire narrative worth of events for them to react to. What impresses me is the ability to use composition, diction, word choice and actions to turn what are nominally static characters into believable parts of a world.

That's a complicated challenge which the best of the classic rpg's accomplish.
 

Chaos17

Member
fuck the mines. gonna buy a "turn invisible" spellbook and port my party to me via pyramids if I need to. >_< Tried to teleport all the guards into the prision, but for some reason they reset when I flee with all characters. (also found the delay turn button for the first time lmao - why are both buttons not at the bottom o_O).

The pyramid doesn't work in the mine.
 
I simply didn't see that sort of design in the Shadowrun games. And it's certainly not any -better- compositionally than Divinity. Unless someone here believes fantasy writing is somehow 'easy' because you can make it all up. If that's the case than why does everyone in the Witcher games come off like an idiot...

Divinity's dialog is well written, but to imply that the Witcher's or Shadowrun/Dragonfall's writing is badly done is going too far.

All three games - DOS, the Witcher, and Shadowrun have good writing, and all for different reasons. Divinity: Original Sin capitalizes on its unique setting to show equally... unique stories. The Witcher focuses heavy on grey morality, and choices/consequences with great success. Both of Shadowrun's campaigns open a window into a well-defined and fully-realised setting that makes you feel like you're actually there. The point is, they don't focus on doing things in the same way, so comparing them will be a fruitless endeavour.

Really, all of these games have good writing and there's no reason to champion one over the other, aside from personal taste. If you're going to champion one of them, champion all of them instead so we can have more! Mooooore!
 
D

Deleted member 17706

Unconfirmed Member
I really couldn't get into Shadowrun, unfortunately. I backed it on Kickstarter, but the final product just didn't do it for me. I've only played a bit of the Seattle campaign, granted. I think it was just the utter lack of interactivity available that bothered me. Pre-rendered non-interactive backgrounds with tons of NPCs that couldn't be engaged with.

The combat seemed OK, but that's really all there was to it besides the conversations, which didn't seem to offer a ton of choice. It almost feels like they would have been better suited with the approach The Banner Saga took in which it was more of a visual novel + battles.
 

eXistor

Member
Great year for rpg's! I'm loving Original Sin a ton. I'm taking my sweet time with everything so far, my party is holding up pretty well, not too many deaths yet. It's great that the game lets players find out just about everything by themselves.

The game is actually pretty generous with hints (if you have the
pet pal perk
), but that's just fine, some things would be pretty hard to figure out if you never got any help. It's a perfect marriage of oldskool sensibilities and more modern game design. Very interested to see if the game holds up the more I play (13 hours so far).
 

erragal

Member
Divinity's dialog is well written, but to imply that the Witcher's or Shadowrun/Dragonfall's writing is badly done is going too far.

All three games - DOS, the Witcher, and Shadowrun have good writing, and all for different reasons. Divinity: Original Sin capitalizes on its unique setting to show equally... unique stories. The Witcher focuses heavy on grey morality, and choices/consequences with great success. Both of Shadowrun's campaigns open a window into a well-defined and fully-realised setting that makes you feel like you're actually there. The point is, they don't focus on doing things in the same way, so comparing them will be a fruitless endeavour.

Really, all of these games have good writing and there's no reason to champion one over the other, aside from personal taste. If you're going to champion one of them, champion all of them instead so we can have more! Mooooore!

The Witcher games have pisspoor writing. That's not even a debate. Grey mortality is not a narrative plot; it's an excuse for shoddy extemperaneous impulsive decision making.

I absolutely dislike those games and don't want more. Decisions do not make for good characterization. Why would I champion such shoddy composition and ugly power fantasy narrative with a cardboard antihero stereotype.

And as I said: Shadowrun isn't poorly written. It simply uses a different style of narrative creation with a focus on the protagonist. Inferior does not make something bad; unfortunately for the fanboy mentality surrounding games writing has quality which can be objectively broken down and discussed. We have thousands of years of it; this is why Gilgamesh is still one of the finest stories ever told and no amount of weepy "everything is good in it's own way" speeches can change that.
 
D

Deleted member 17706

Unconfirmed Member
writing has quality which can be objectively broken down and discussed.

But, like all art, it still ultimately comes down to whether a person likes it or not. You can break down and categorize all you want, but the perception of quality is still a very subjective thing.

Case in point: you do not like how The Witcher handles itself. Many people do. Both are valid opinions, but things get obnoxious when one party tries to claim that the other is objectively wrong.
 

Zukuu

Banned
Has anyone found a non-int-requirement sarong yet? My melee still wears the initial start sarong... I've probably found 50+ sarongs, all requiring int.
 

misho8723

Banned
The Witcher games have pisspoor writing. That's not even a debate. Grey mortality is not a narrative plot; it's an excuse for shoddy extemperaneous impulsive decision making.

You gotta be fucking kidding me.. maybe the first Witcher didn't had good writting in the english adaptation, but Witcher 2 has one of the best writting, characters and plot when it comes to games.. not just RPG's but video-games overall.. and it has nothing to do with the grey morality in the game or not having good/bad clichés - they only make it better which is already fantastic writting..

When it comes to RPG's, only Planetscape Torment has better and more interesting story, characters than Witcher games - my own opinion, ok :)
 
I restarted like hundreds of times trying out all classes and can't decide what I wanted lol. I'm so indecisive. I think I ended up with just Knight and ranger.
 

erragal

Member
But, like all art, it still ultimately comes down to whether a person likes it or not. You can break down and categorize all you want, but the perception of quality is still a very subjective thing.

Case in point: you do not like how The Witcher handles itself. Many people do. Both are valid opinions, but things get obnoxious when one party tries to claim that the other is objectively wrong.

For art to be art it must past objective deterninations of quality. Subjective doesn't enter into play until the objective barrier is passed.

We can have a subjective conversation comparing Maniac Mansion, Myst, Baldur's Gate 2, Command & conquer: red alert, Civilization, The Last of Us...

Games which have narrative techniques that pass the objective qualities we need to analyze before reviewing them as art. With games this is more complicated because things likr Xcom/Civ/SimCity/D:OS have emergent narrative elements that become part of the story. These are the games that fully realize what the medium can be. Minecraft is an example of a different way...emergent narrative that can become self authored pure storytelling/creation.

The games that don't have this need be objectively observed for the basics of style and language. Would you really claim a story written with the decision trees of an adolescent brimming with magical power in a grown man's body are objectively well thought out? That character is a villain, an idiot, or hopelessly lost. It shows no long term consideration for the character and his existence; it is a vehicle for the player to enact their power fantasies upon the game world without moral consiseration.

This is not 'morally grey' writing. It's morally absent. Consequences within the game world don't resolve the fundamentally pisspoor writing that must exist for the character to even think those thoughts in the first place.

Things can be popular and even critically well loved but completely fail all objective qualifications as art. Most hollywood movies are no longer art; they are made by teams of producers, marketers, focus groups and writers to create a product. The Witcher is a product. A work of artifice, not art.

It's fine if you cannot separste the two. Modern society has blurred the lines between them and games sadly have become more artifice than art.

But to pretend that such tripe crap is on the level of a great piece of game writing...is intellectually dishonest. It's skipping the step called 'objective critical analysis' and responding out of emotions.

It'd be like if I told you Haruki Murakami or Cormac McCarthy are strictly better writers than Stephen King/Dan Brown...and you still argued because 'taste is different' that there was no data to support that contention.

You can like something that's not art. I love loot games. No loot game is art. They are all dopamine pandering timesinks. Titan Quest is one of my favorite games...but not one of the best games. It takes effort to create a division between personal opinion and analysis.
 

Sub Zero

his body's cold as ice, but he's got a heart of gold
Just beat Mangoth and his demons and recovered Leandra's blood and diary. Spoke to Icara as the journal suggested but she didn't tell me where to go /what to do next. Any clues?
 

Tanolen

Member
Just beat Mangoth and his demons and recovered Leandra's blood and diary. Spoke to Icara as the journal suggested but she didn't tell me where to go /what to do next. Any clues?

You need to go to the mines to get leandra's spell to combine with the blood
 

Armaros

Member
For art to be art it must past objective deterninations of quality. Subjective doesn't enter into play until the objective barrier is passed.

We can have a subjective conversation comparing Maniac Mansion, Myst, Baldur's Gate 2, Command & conquer: red alert, Civilization, The Last of Us...

Games which have narrative techniques that pass the objective qualities we need to analyze before reviewing them as art. With games this is more complicated because things likr Xcom/Civ/SimCity/D:OS have emergent narrative elements that become part of the story. These are the games that fully realize what the medium can be. Minecraft is an example of a different way...emergent narrative that can become self authored pure storytelling/creation.

The games that don't have this need be objectively observed for the basics of style and language. Would you really claim a story written with the decision trees of an adolescent brimming with magical power in a grown man's body are objectively well thought out? That character is a villain, an idiot, or hopelessly lost. It shows no long term consideration for the character and his existence; it is a vehicle for the player to enact their power fantasies upon the game world without moral consiseration.

This is not 'morally grey' writing. It's morally absent. Consequences within the game world don't resolve the fundamentally pisspoor writing that must exist for the character to even think those thoughts in the first place.

Things can be popular and even critically well loved but completely fail all objective qualifications as art. Most hollywood movies are no longer art; they are made by teams of producers, marketers, focus groups and writers to create a product. The Witcher is a product. A work of artifice, not art.

It's fine if you cannot separste the two. Modern society has blurred the lines between them and games sadly have become more artifice than art.

But to pretend that such tripe crap is on the level of a great piece of game writing...is intellectually dishonest. It's skipping the step called 'objective critical analysis' and responding out of emotions.

It'd be like if I told you Haruki Murakami or Cormac McCarthy are strictly better writers than Stephen King/Dan Brown...and you still argued because 'taste is different' that there was no data to support that contention.

You can like something that's not art. I love loot games. No loot game is art. They are all dopamine pandering timesinks. Titan Quest is one of my favorite games...but not one of the best games. It takes effort to create a division between personal opinion and analysis.

And you are the arbitrator of the standards of video game storytelling.

That basiclly what you wrote that wall of text for. To say you know more about storytelling then others.

PS: your wall of texts lambasting a game that the OT is not even about is completely off:topic. If you want to write walls of text saying how horrible the witcher games writing is then make a new thread about it.
 

Noaloha

Member
But, like all art, it still ultimately comes down to whether a person likes it or not. You can break down and categorize all you want, but the perception of quality is still a very subjective thing.

Devil's Advocate time. Consider a writer like, for example, Dan Brown. He's extremely popular, so it's difficult to outright say, "he can't write for shit." He gives his audience exactly what they want. A lot of people would argue his case and have his back. He's doing something right. But on the other hand, ultimately, when all's said and done at the end of the day, y'know, like, seriously: Dan Brown is a kinda shitty writer.
 

JLeack

Banned
I'm not telling this to insult you: you are confusing compositional complexity for character depth.

When writing a narrative like Dragonfall every character exists to play off of the protagonist's story. While they may appear to have motivations based on detailed writing and pre-determined plots they actually only exist to allow the main character to determine more about themselves through their interactions. They are flat characters existing in a exciting narrative that revolves around the protagonist.

What makes a game like Divinity, BG2, Torment, Pillars of Eternity special is the writers don't approach non player characters as part of a branch of the main plot. They are constructed as individuals with their own personality/beliefs/background before they're incorporated into events. This way they are not simply guideposts on a egocentric journey but individuals to be encountered.

Every named npc in Divinity with dialogue trees feels like that. Even the mushrooms.

I simply didn't see that sort of design in the Shadowrun games. And it's certainly not any -better- compositionally than Divinity. Unless someone here believes fantasy writing is somehow 'easy' because you can make it all up. If that's the case than why does everyone in the Witcher games come off like an idiot...

That wasn't meant to be a slight on Shadowrun overall. They're nicrly written games with snappy dialogue using a great world lore...but snappy doesn't equate to dimension/personality. Attitude doesn't bring across motivation nearly as well as pacing and diction.

I noticed you mentioned companions: Companions are inherently written to 'grow' with your protagonist and show off story. They're fragments of deep characterization. If you're the type of individual that really enjoys that type of story they'll always pop out to you as the most real/developed people.

From a writing standpoint it's easy to give someone depth and a point of view if you have the entire narrative worth of events for them to react to. What impresses me is the ability to use composition, diction, word choice and actions to turn what are nominally static characters into believable parts of a world.

That's a complicated challenge which the best of the classic rpg's accomplish.

Whoaaa there buddy. I think you may be overrating Divinity a little. That's cool that you really like it but you may he going a bit overboard.

DAT honeymoon period.
 

erragal

Member
And you are the arbitrator of the standards of video game storytelling.

That basiclly what you wrote that wall of text for. To say you know more about storytelling then others.

PS: your wall of texts lambasting a game that the OT is not even about is completely off:topic. If you want to write walls of text saying how horrible the witcher games writing is then make a new thread about it.

Do you have an objective argument to counter it? Feel free to pm if you find it too offtopic. I will gladly discuss the intricacies of storytelling with you. Then again if you use that tired euphemism 'walls of text' I have a hunch your expertise does not lie in a medium that relies on thorough language to evaluate.
 

Conezays

Member
Colour me shocked that this OT has 350k views and the game's still the number 1 seller a week after at $39.99!

Glad so many others are enjoying it.
 

matmanx1

Member
More than 20 hours in and it just keeps getting better and better. Both of my Knights are now using 1h crush weapons with shields just because I have 2 legendary 1h crushing weapons that are better than any of the 2h stuff I had.

I just picked up the Fire Elemental for my Mage and the first battle I used it in I buffed it with Fortify and Oath of Desecration. Needless to say, it wrecked stuff.

One weird thing involving the Murder Mystery, I was exploring in the
northern section
of Cyseal and got a Journal update. When I checked the Journal update it said
"I found the northern section of Beach mentioned in Evelyn's Diary"
even though I had never
read Evelyn's diary or had any reason to suspect her over anyone else. In other words, the game sort of spoiled the assailant for me through a journal update.

It's ultimately a small problem because I would have arrived at the correct answer eventually but I would have liked to have gotten there on my own accord and not through a badly timed journal entry.
 

Zukuu

Banned
Kinda stuck. Where do I need to go? I was
in the mines, got the scroll. Can't do anything in sacred stone nor the the cathedrale. All that's left is either move forward to the next zone, or in that area with the unkillable demons and the huge blood stone I can't deal any damage too.
Halp.
 
You gotta be fucking kidding me.. maybe the first Witcher didn't had good writting in the english adaptation, but Witcher 2 has one of the best writting, characters and plot when it comes to games.. not just RPG's but video-games overall.. and it has nothing to do with the grey morality in the game or not having good/bad clichés - they only make it better which is already fantastic writting..

When it comes to RPG's, only Planetscape Torment has better and more interesting story, characters than Witcher games - my own opinion, ok :)

First one had better writing than the sequel (at least after they patched the first one).
 

Armaros

Member
Do you have an objective argument to counter it? Feel free to pm if you find it too offtopic. I will gladly discuss the intricacies of storytelling with you. Then again if you use that tired euphemism 'walls of text' I have a hunch your expertise does not lie in a medium that relies on thorough language to evaluate.

Would any discussion be worth having when you spend all your time going out your way to belittle and look down on posters.
But this has gone on far enough and I'll just ignore you.
 

Zukuu

Banned
I have. It's level 7, no requirements. what are they for? just underclothing?
They come with stats. I always get +willpower / bodybuilding / resi and int. Haven't found anything else and always require int to wear. Maybe bugged loot table?
 

FtHTiny

Member
Kinda stuck. Where do I need to go? I was
in the mines, got the scroll. Can't do anything in sacred stone nor the the cathedrale. All that's left is either move forward to the next zone, or in that area with the unkillable demons and the huge blood stone I can't deal any damage too.
Halp.

In the cathedral,
did you go under the altar into the secret room?
 
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