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DmC |OT| No, F*ck You!

While I think it's a good action game, I don't think it was a completely successful reboot and you already answered why I think that in the bolded. If this game had improved on the writing, story and characters of DMC dramatically then I could've seen the argument.

I can see the game being successful in bringing in a new audience that wasn't there before but that could come at a heavy cost of losing fans. At the end we don't really know how many new fans they gained vs losing old fans so it's difficult to gauge the success of the game.

I think it's one of the things people aren't understanding about some of the negativity towards this game, because having it made most likely cost us the old series. Now it's up to the game to not just be good enough, but it also has to make up for the opportunity cost of continuing the old series. It's so strange that Capcom chose to make this a reboot instead of a spinoff, because I think with a spinoff they could've reaped the benefits of the brand without generating this amount of hostility and then having to deal with such lofty expectations.

Are you going to do a FAQ for this game, Dahbomb? I really appreciated the DMC3 mechanics FAQ you did.
 

Dahbomb

Member
I don't think I will unless the community demands something like it or if a ton of stuff is discovered on the game and needs to be consolidated somewhere. I think people much prefer watching guide videos, that was the trend with DMC4 (shout outs to Chaser).
 

Endo Punk

Member
I have to say Im pretty surprised by the positive feedback especially about the gameplay. I really didn't like the gamepaly in the demo and it was because it felt so similar to DMC the flaws were much more apparent. Just lacked the feel that DMC gives, I mean it feels like DMC but not genuinely instead like a copy, didn't click with me at all. Funny the only interest I have in this game is the name and what they did with the story, if it wasn't DMC the gameplay would not convince me to purchase it likewise every GOW clone didn't convince me to purchase those games like Dante's Inferno.

I am curious if DmC was actually called DMC5 would you be as forgiving?
 
Anyone know of gameplay footage of the DMC3 Dante outfit in action. Also, link to the soundtrack, I know it was thrown around earlier but I forget which page....

Thanks.
 

Monocle

Member
Now that I've finished watching a full playthrough, I want to share my thoughts. Everything I say here regarding DmC's gameplay should be taken with a grain of salt, since my only hands-on experience is with the demo. When I get to the plot I'll speak in general terms. No major spoilers here.

As an action game, DmC is solid. Certainly below par for a Devil May Cry title, but above average for its overall genre. The combat has many issues that you probably won't notice unless you're used to playing top-shelf action games like DMC3, Bayonetta, and Ninja Gaiden Black. The one thing most players will struggle with is the soft lock-on system, which is OK for attacking groups but annoyingly inconsistent when you want to aim at a particular enemy or latch onto a specific grapple point with other targets nearby. This becomes more of an annoyance as the game progresses, because you'll have to deal with enemies that are immune to certain weapons. In these cases it's really easy to get stunned by accidentally hitting the wrong demon. The targeting also makes a nuisance of itself when you're trying to run past enemies during timed platforming sequences. Otherwise, the basic mechanics are solid and the weapons complement each other well. Positioning is the name of the game here. You'll have moves that can pull, push, juggle, slam, stun, or freeze individuals or groups, setting them up for the next hit, then the next, and beyond, as long you can keep the string going. For all that, DmC is still a diminished imitation of earlier DMC games. Its tradeoff is less depth for more accessibility. Ironically, casual players might credit DmC with superior combat since they'll be able to unpack more of the system with much less effort than stylish action games typically demand.

The missions offer great visual variety. I was particularly impressed with a certain boss inspired by a notorious American pundit. The dance club mission everyone has seen in the trailers is a marvelous audiovisual achievement. DmC's level structure is very linear, however, despite the many nooks and side rooms that conceal collectibles and secret mission doors. There is a great deal of platforming. Much, much more than I care to have in my action games. More on this later.

I noticed several technical issues. Sometimes enemies fail to spawn immediately, leaving you to run around an empty sealed-off area with the battle music blasting. Sometimes enemies stop attacking for no apparent reason, or never start. The camera is pretty bad at giving you a view of all the enemies when you're fighting in confined areas or when the camera angle is high. The camera also tends to get blocked by pieces of the environment if it tries to rotate when it's pulled back too far. Like I mentioned before, the soft lock-on system is kind of janky. An actual lock-on button would have done this game wonders. In terms of general polish, DmC feels somewhat rough around the edges. I have very little doubt that players will uncover game-breaking glitches and serious combat exploits within the next few months.

DmC's voice acting is oddly inconsistent. Dino (humor me here) is kind of endearing when he's not trying to seem edgy by saying "fuck" to everybody. I can sort of get on board with his insolent ragamuffin schtick when I don't think about his connection to classic Dante, because he has a kind of scruffy appeal that works on its own level. But sometimes he and the rest of cast do this thing where there's a really urgent moment and they sound totally chilled out, like they're just commenting on the weather or something. It's distracting. It doesn't fit. And it's especially problematic when you consider the following.

One of the weakest aspects of the DmC is its story. Yes, it's more fully developed than the plots of previous DMC titles, and yes, it's more integrated with the gameplay, but there are a number of reasons it doesn't work. The themes are too heavy handed: corporations trying to make everyone docile consumers, demons controlling people through debt, subliminal messaging used to brainwash the public, and so on. It's what you'd get if you asked the average high school student to write a story about the perverse side of capitalism in modern society, with a supernatural twist. This material is juvenile, yet it's presented so earnestly that it makes you want to squirm.

DmC fails to impress as an adaptation or reimagination of the classic Devil May Cry story. Without exception, the characters are walking cliches that wear their personalities on their sleeves. The plot discloses no real revelations and contains no surprises you won't see coming a mile away. The ending has to be one of the flattest and clumsiest anticlimaxes of the generation. These shortcomings are difficult to overlook if you recall how much Capcom and Ninja Theory talked up the plot. We were told one of the main reasons NT was commissioned for this reboot was that their storytelling skills would allow them to make a well-rounded DMC game with a quality plot to draw in a wider audience. It has to be said that they've failed to live up to their own hype. DmC probably has greater mass market appeal than the likes of Bayonetta, but that's because it's not a clever artistic statement so much as a conventional recipe that is self-conscious in its aim to appear fashionable to young people. Bad attitudes, hard rock, coarse language, casual violence, perfunctory sleaze, ham-fisted humor. Kids eat this stuff up. It's just so...cool.

The emphasis on storytelling has consequences for the gameplay. Kat's character is a poorly disguised hand-holding device, and thorough to a fault. You have to put up with her talking at you almost constantly. Even worse, well over half of the progress-oriented actions you perform in DmC—whether it's winning a battle, taking a good chunk from a boss's life bar, or entering a new area—are interrupted by a cutscene. And only the longer ones can be skipped. This is excessive. A game's story should never be an obstacle to the player.

My biggest issue with DmC is that it was quite plainly designed to cater to players who will go through the missions once to enjoy the spectacle and then toss the game onto the shelf or trade it in. DmC is filled with platforming sequences, grappling sequences, and escape sequences. All of this traversal is linear and simplistic. In effect, most of the game's urgency and drama is front-loaded to ensure that your first playthrough has maximum impact. It's as though replay value doesn't even matter. Sure, you'll have a good first experience, but after that you can only expect sharply diminishing returns. Between the platforming and the constant cutscenes, DmC is just short of openly hostile to players who approach it with a mindset of long term dedication. That's a shame, because Devil May Cry used to be all about the long haul.

For comparison's sake, here's how I'd rank the full DMC series:

Devil May Cry: 9/10
Devil May Cry 2: 3/10
Devil May Cry 3: 9/10
Devil May Cry 3: Special Edition: 10/10
Devil May Cry 4: 8/10
DmC: Devil May Cry: 6/10

As a standalone title, I'd give DmC an 8/10.

Tl;dr: DmC is a below average Devil May Cry game yet an above average action game. The basic mechanics are solid and the barrier to entry is low: you'll be able to do cool stuff almost right away. The presentation and visual variety are excellent. However, between the linear platforming and frequent interruptions by cutscenes, this game's replay value is much less than it could have been. The plot is a big disappointment. You'd never guess storytelling is supposed to be Ninja Theory's specialty. Play DmC for a great spectacle with limited staying power.
 
Now that I've finished watching a full playthrough, I want to share my thoughts..

[...]

Just... I don't get this. Not all you're saying, because some of it can be judged from a viewer perspective). But how are you evaluating something like a game by watching it?

I dunno, to make an analogy... it would be like reviewing a drug without consuming it. Since I never have done drugs, but have seen people under the effects, I guess I can make a detailed impression of the sensations they create, right?
 

Monocle

Member
Just... I don't get this. Not all you're saying, because some of it can be judged from a viewer perspective). But how are you evaluating something like a game by watching it?

I dunno, to make an analogy... it would be like reviewing a drug without consuming it. Since I never have done drugs, but have seen people under the effects, I guess I can make a detailed impression of the sensations they create, right?
It's fairly apparent that the gameplay of the full version cleaves very close to the gameplay of the demo. The feels, I know them. Also, I've been playing the DMC series from the very beginning. I know what to look for.
 

Monocle

Member
Giving reviews after watching a playthrough? What the fuck is this place? GameFAQs?
It's not a review, it's a collection of impressions with a tentative ranking based on what I watched, what I experienced in the demo, and what I know about the DMC series. I did give fair warning. If you like, ignore the points about gameplay. That should be easy since they don't make up the main substance of my post.
 

V_Arnold

Member
You really cant judge the combat depth by the demo, btw. Not only because half of the fun (i.e. Kablooey, Aquila, Eryx, upgrades) is missing, but because DmC is the kind of a game where the enemy types directly effect your need to strategize, time your attacks, and use a variety of weapons.

I also had almost no issues with the lack of lock-on, targeting with a precise hold of the left analoge stick to the desired direction while doing the attack worked nicely. The more enemies in the area, the more precise that stick targeting needs, which is an acquired skill. Also, judging whether one can be targeted by your analogue aim or not is another judgement call - with experience, those situations can be negated by dashing to an area where you are guaranteed to target them. To give you an example, if Dante is at 180 degree (i.e. starting position), and there are three enemies close to each other at 270,290,300 degrees compared to him, then an angel dash to the right will change them up to an easily targetable 240,290,350 compared to Dante's new 180. Yeah, with faster combat speed, this might NOT be feasible, but this is one of the areas where a slightly slower pace actually helps us.

Also, Dahbomb, you are gonna love higher difficulties, the Drakavec appears in almost every level, sometimes in VERY powerful combinations (with Witches, Giants). I also feel like that there is rarely an enemy that is considered cannon fodder, since when you are maneuvering against heavy hitters, those enraged chainsaw guys and shielded mobs can actually become quite dangerous by just being there.
 

V_Arnold

Member
Apparently you can change the target of the soft lock by pressing in the left (or is it right) analogue stick.

Yep, that is the main tool for manual targeting. And once you have a soft lock on someone with this method, you keep going at them until you want to stop. It is quite effective, and the problem is precision+mob density, which in turn becomes something that is a goal for the player to change. If one sees a group of heavy hitter mobs clumped together, that shit needs to be softened first by Demon Weapons before the fun can begin. That is one approach, but there are others :D
 
You really cant judge the combat depth by the demo, btw. Not only because half of the fun (i.e. Kablooey, Aquila, Eryx, upgrades) is missing, but because DmC is the kind of a game where the enemy types directly effect your need to strategize, time your attacks, and use a variety of weapons.

I also had almost no issues with the lack of lock-on, targeting with a precise hold of the left analoge stick to the desired direction while doing the attack worked nicely. The more enemies in the area, the more precise that stick targeting needs, which is an acquired skill. Also, judging whether one can be targeted by your analogue aim or not is another judgement call - with experience, those situations can be negated by dashing to an area where you are guaranteed to target them. To give you an example, if Dante is at 180 degree (i.e. starting position), and there are three enemies close to each other at 270,290,300 degrees compared to him, then an angel dash to the right will change them up to an easily targetable 240,290,350 compared to Dante's new 180. Yeah, with faster combat speed, this might NOT be feasible, but this is one of the areas where a slightly slower pace actually helps us.

Also, Dahbomb, you are gonna love higher difficulties, the Drakavec appears in almost every level, sometimes in VERY powerful combinations (with Witches, Giants). I also feel like that there is rarely an enemy that is considered cannon fodder, since when you are maneuvering against heavy hitters, those enraged chainsaw guys and shielded mobs can actually become quite dangerous by just being there.

So glad someone else has a sane opinion of the soft lock. Glad you're digging the game, looking forward to trying it out.
 
So it's come to this - critiquing a video game based on a youtube playthrough... words fail me. The naysayers continue to reach new lows.

Thank God this thread has Dahbomb, that's all I'll say.
 

S1kkZ

Member
So it's come to this - critiquing a video game based on a youtube playthrough... words fail me. The naysayers continue to reach new lows.

Thank God this thread has Dahbomb, that's all I'll say.

this. you cant judge a videogame by not playing it, you cant judge a song/album by only reading the lyrics and you cant judge a film by reading the story summary on imdb and watching the trailer.
 

Monocle

Member
Good dudes, the post is very clearly marked as impressions of a recorded playthrough. I didn't linger on the gameplay, I mainly talked about the presentation. I think that if people can consider themselves informed by video reviews, a full playthrough is enough to figure out what you think about the aspects of a game that don't depend on holding the controller in your hand. I'm not trying to mislead anybody.

Acquiescence is really reaching if he thinks that calling a game "above average" is naysaying.
 

V_Arnold

Member
Monocle, I appreciate your energy put into that post, but I have to greatly disagree with this:

"Between the platforming and the constant cutscenes, DmC is just short of openly hostile to players who approach it with a mindset of long term dedication. That's a shame, because Devil May Cry used to be all about the long haul."

The majority of the cutscenes that are not skippable are nothing more than masked loading times, so they should be treated as such. No one shouts at loading screens in DMC4, right? The platforming, on the other hand, is WAAY more fun paired with the godlike enviromnent looks and design than traversing through any levels in DMC4, for example. Therefore it is not hostile, but way more friendly. DmC also throws mobs at you almost at every corner, which is again a great thing to do, as it is the main gameplay, after all.

Another good thing to note is that while bosses do have those uninterruptable parts, is that they are mechanically very easy to memorize and do it perfectly, AND they are not part of other, combat-heavy missions. So if one wants to hone its skills in battle, not only is the Secret Mission panel available from the main menu, not only will Bloody Palace come, but the boss-less missions are also full force combat "simulators" as well. I do not see how this is anything that can be considered hostile towards those that want to improve. (Plus training mode, I almost forgot about that.)
 
Monocle, I appreciate your energy put into that post, but I have to greatly disagree with this:

"Between the platforming and the constant cutscenes, DmC is just short of openly hostile to players who approach it with a mindset of long term dedication. That's a shame, because Devil May Cry used to be all about the long haul."

The majority of the cutscenes that are not skippable are nothing more than masked loading times, so they should be treated as such. No one shouts at loading screens in DMC4, right? The platforming, on the other hand, is WAAY more fun paired with the godlike enviromnent looks and design than traversing through any levels in DMC4, for example. Therefore it is not hostile, but way more friendly. DmC also throws mobs at you almost at every corner, which is again a great thing to do, as it is the main gameplay, after all.

Another good thing to note is that while bosses do have those uninterruptable parts, is that they are mechanically very easy to memorize and do it perfectly, AND they are not part of other, combat-heavy missions. So if one wants to hone its skills in battle, not only is the Secret Mission panel available from the main menu, not only will Bloody Palace come, but the boss-less missions are also full force combat "simulators" as well. I do not see how this is anything that can be considered hostile towards those that want to improve. (Plus training mode, I almost forgot about that.)

I don't know about the console versions but I had no loading screens during missions. I hope DmC is the same.
 

Monocle

Member
Monocle, I appreciate your energy put into that post, but I have to greatly disagree with this:

"Between the platforming and the constant cutscenes, DmC is just short of openly hostile to players who approach it with a mindset of long term dedication. That's a shame, because Devil May Cry used to be all about the long haul."

The majority of the cutscenes that are not skippable are nothing more than masked loading times, so they should be treated as such. No one shouts at loading screens in DMC4, right? The platforming, on the other hand, is WAAY more fun paired with the godlike enviromnent looks and design than traversing through any levels in DMC4, for example. Therefore it is not hostile, but way more friendly. DmC also throws mobs at you almost at every corner, which is again a great thing to do, as it is the main gameplay, after all.
I don't know, maybe I phrased that part too strongly by not sticking to "I" statements, but all the platforming I saw drained my interest in going through those sections more than a couple times. I play action games for the combat variety. Of course, I can't say I won't change my mind about the traversal once I've tried the game.

Another good thing to note is that while bosses do have those uninterruptable parts, is that they are mechanically very easy to memorize and do it perfectly, AND they are not part of other, combat-heavy missions. So if one wants to hone its skills in battle, not only is the Secret Mission panel available from the main menu, not only will Bloody Palace come, but the boss-less missions are also full force combat "simulators" as well. I do not see how this is anything that can be considered hostile towards those that want to improve. (Plus training mode, I almost forgot about that.)
Good to hear. If the replay value is better than it looked, everyone wins.
 
Acquiescence is really reaching if he thinks that calling a game "above average" is naysaying.

No, shitting on a game for several threads prior to release warrants the naysayer claim. Calling a game "above average" without having played it warrants a thousand facepalms and eye rolls.
 

Derrick01

Banned
this. you cant judge a videogame by not playing it

Horseshit. You absolutely can.

It doesn't take a genius to read a ton of previews/reviews, watch videos and pick out problems a game has. I got called out by the defenders of Hitman for doing that and you know what? I was 100% right, before I had even touched the game. I don't know why people pretend it's impossible to know a game until you play it when it's blatantly false.
 

Monocle

Member
No, shitting on a game for several threads prior to release warrants the naysayer claim. Calling a game "above average" without having played it warrants a thousand facepalms and eye rolls.
I think that at this point you're trying to manufacture controversy because the facts are less amusing.

I came away from those videos with a more positive view of the game, and that's reflected in my earlier post. I'm here to discuss the game reasonably. I'm open to revising my opinions. Stop baiting.
 
who cares if he doesn't like it from watching a video. If that's how he evaluate games, then good for him.

Let's not begin to shit up a thread over this.

This thread had some positive vibes going on..let's try to keep it that way and not go into "fuck yooooouuu white hair lover" territory of all the other ones, lol.
 

HardRojo

Member
Horseshit. You absolutely can.

It doesn't take a genius to read a ton of previews/reviews, watch videos and pick out problems a game has. I got called out by the defenders of Hitman for doing that and you know what? I was 100% right, before I had even touched the game. I don't know why people pretend it's impossible to know a game until you play it when it's blatantly false.

I agree with you, it's the same argument people bring up for consoles, specially Wii U now since it's new.
"How do you know? Have you played the console?"
 
Good dudes, the post is very clearly marked as impressions of a recorded playthrough. I didn't linger on the gameplay, I mainly talked about the presentation. I think that if people can consider themselves informed by video reviews, a full playthrough is enough to figure out what you think about the aspects of a game that don't depend on holding the controller in your hand. I'm not trying to mislead anybody...

& you're not...

but, personally, i just can't imagine why anyone who's actually interested in playing a game would watch a complete playthrough before doing so, & then proceed to separate out & give a detailed critique of a particular component (the 'presentation'). it's like taking the time to analyze the frosting on a cake you've yet to taste after watching a video of someone eating a piece :) ...
 

zoukka

Member
You can make an impression without playing the game, but before you have actually tested it yourself, you can't make very convincing statements about it. It's perfectly fine to skip games by just this impression, but argumentation about said games will be very weak until you actually play it.
 
I think that at this point you're trying to manufacture controversy because the facts are less amusing.

I came away from those videos with a more positive view of the game, and that's reflected in my earlier post. I'm here to discuss the game reasonably. I'm open to revising my opinions. Stop baiting.

Looking aside the fact that every DmC thread on this site is plagued by manufactured controversy anyway, most of which stems from fans who wish this reboot never existed in the first place, my personal idea of "baiting" is posting impressions of a game off the back of a youtube playthrough. You actually go into some depth critiquing the combat system when all you've played of it has been what was offered in the demo! Oh yes, that's incredibly resonable. I should offer an in-depth analysis of the combat system in the Revengeance OT next month, before the game has even been released and off the basis of somebody elses youtube playthrough, and see how people react. I'm sure they'd applaud me for my insight.

You can make an impression without playing the game, but before you have actually tested it yourself, you can't make very convincing statements about it. It's perfectly fine to skip games by just this impression, but argumentation about said games will be very weak until you actually play it.

This here is gospel.
 
Guys, this is the internet, be glad he at least ADMITTED he'd only watched footage of it and played the demo. I'm sick of the obvious extended to campaign to destroy this game's reputation as much as anyone but he just posted an earnest impression and was entirely upfront about everything.
 

Derrick01

Banned
You can make an impression without playing the game, but before you have actually tested it yourself, you can't make very convincing statements about it. It's perfectly fine to skip games by just this impression, but argumentation about said games will be very weak until you actually play it.

I disagree about that as well. If you did enough homework on something then you can make as good of an argument on the game as someone who played it. The only thing that would be different is talking about secrets that a walkthrough or review wouldn't touch, but discussing something on the core level and what works/doesn't work is entirely possible. I know because I did it. Playing Hitman Absolution and beating it in the last couple of weeks didn't expose me to anything that I did not already know beforehand on a level design or mechanics level, so all of a sudden my old arguments before the game came out suddenly become "valid" just because I played it? Even though nothing changed or was proven wrong? That doesn't make any sense to me.

By the way I only keep bringing up Hitman here because it applies to what we're talking about here.
 

V_Arnold

Member
I was about to ask you why Hitman is even relevant to this.

It is still not, though, as this is an action game, where the fun is HOW you play the combat, and what you use or not. You cannot simply have even a shred of gameplay experience of the combat by watching playthroughs, because you do not know what is inside the mind of the players, WHY he decided to do this or that, and how that felt. Games are more than simple sequences of pictures with sound on the tv, the immediate feedback loop between your actions and your decisions is what constitutes as gameplay - and last time I checked, Youtube never offered any of that.

You can make an assesment of every other aspect (story, graphics, even battle speed, game length, etc), but not that crucial part. And that is important :p
 

Y2Kev

TLG Fan Caretaker Est. 2009
So what's with the Union Jack on Dante's uniform? Is he British? Or is that a hipster thing I don't know about?
 

zoukka

Member
I disagree about that as well. If you did enough homework on something then you can make as good of an argument on the game as someone who played it. The only thing that would be different is talking about secrets that a walkthrough or review wouldn't touch, but discussing something on the core level and what works/doesn't work is entirely possible. I know because I did it. Playing Hitman Absolution and beating it in the last couple of weeks didn't expose me to anything that I did not already know beforehand on a level design or mechanics level, so all of a sudden my old arguments before the game came out suddenly become "valid" just because I played it? Even though nothing changed or was proven wrong? That doesn't make any sense to me.

No. Just no. Even though we can sometimes "guess" things right, it's still not the same. And there's this thing where you yourself will get this certain image of the game that might tell you somewhat accurately whether you'll like it or not. But when you then proceed to describe this image to other people, the information is already so compromised there's very little value in it left.

Which is why I said it's perfectly fine for you to make your mind about the game, but telling us why has absolutely no informational value to me.
 
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