FunkMiller
Member
The cosy little relationship Hollywood developed with the cinema chains over the years ensured higher profits for all of them, and a worse, more expensive experience for patrons. No wonder things have gone bad.
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Do you buy this answer from Matt Damon as to why movies are struggling today?
- Thread starter Men_in_Boxes
- Start date
The cosy little relationship Hollywood developed with the cinema chains over the years ensured higher profits for all of them, and a worse, more expensive experience for patrons. No wonder things have gone bad.
sol_bad
Member
But their films are doing well except for Lightyear.I was going to the damn cinema! Wadda ya want from me??
But yes, it's crap all round. And quite funny in a way. Disney etc wanted that streaming goodness, then complain their films dont do well, cinemas shut, they make crapper films for their service, people leave said service as the films are crap..
It's their own doing.
thegame983
Member
From my personal experience he's correct. I have spent €1000's on VHS and then DVD over the years, but no more.
Clear
CliffyB's Cock Holster
The key issue is there's no real secondary market from streaming services. Its basically a flat fee with no opportunity to exceed expectations.
Historically a lot of movies that tanked at the BO eventually "found their audience" on DVD and Video. As in the rental market fed into retail sales of such movies over the long term - to the extent that it became impossible to ignore their enduring popularity. That's not happening on streaming platforms, because the metrics for success are based on the performance of the platform as a whole. Its just not good for niche appeal stuff because ultimately its a volume market, slow-burn success just doesn't cut-it in the face of viral "hot topic" offerings like say, Tiger King.
Then of course there's the corrosive effect of the way a-la-carte streaming services devalue product to the extent that only a tiny hardcore of enthusiasts and collectors actually buy boxed entertainment because the value proposition no longer seems like a good deal.
Worst part is that gaming is going the exact same way.
Historically a lot of movies that tanked at the BO eventually "found their audience" on DVD and Video. As in the rental market fed into retail sales of such movies over the long term - to the extent that it became impossible to ignore their enduring popularity. That's not happening on streaming platforms, because the metrics for success are based on the performance of the platform as a whole. Its just not good for niche appeal stuff because ultimately its a volume market, slow-burn success just doesn't cut-it in the face of viral "hot topic" offerings like say, Tiger King.
Then of course there's the corrosive effect of the way a-la-carte streaming services devalue product to the extent that only a tiny hardcore of enthusiasts and collectors actually buy boxed entertainment because the value proposition no longer seems like a good deal.
Worst part is that gaming is going the exact same way.
Party McHardy
Member
My brother-in-law is replacing the roof on Matt Damon's house at the moment and apparently his wife is hot, so I'm told.
I enjoyed Stillwater a lot.
I enjoyed Stillwater a lot.
Sosokrates
Report me if I continue to console war
Amazon, netflix etc seem to be willing to buy these movies, surely the amounts cant be that different from what DVD sales used to be for AA movies.
pramod
Banned
It's weird that with digital distribution, gaming seems to have exploded, but movies seems to be going in the opposite direction....
Maybe people need to rethink what modern "movies" should be? With so much competition from gaming/etc now, maybe the traditional sit your ass down for 2 hours staring at a screen movie experience just doesn't cut it anymore?
There is always an audience for stories and cinematic experiences, but maybe the traditional movie isn't the best format to deliver that anymore?
Maybe something more interactive or immersive? Maybe VR? I dunno it just seems like after the addition of color, there hasn't really been any advancement in movies for almost a hundred years.
Maybe people need to rethink what modern "movies" should be? With so much competition from gaming/etc now, maybe the traditional sit your ass down for 2 hours staring at a screen movie experience just doesn't cut it anymore?
There is always an audience for stories and cinematic experiences, but maybe the traditional movie isn't the best format to deliver that anymore?
Maybe something more interactive or immersive? Maybe VR? I dunno it just seems like after the addition of color, there hasn't really been any advancement in movies for almost a hundred years.
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StreetsofBeige
Gold Member
If streaming partnership money from NF and Hulu stink, then why dont movie studios not put them on streaming services? Just sell them as disc copies.
If movie studios are thinking that wont work anymore because people dont care about buying discs and there's too much digital content, so most people will just watch what's on streaming, then too bad.
When streaming wasnt big yet, I'm sure movie companies were all gung ho on the awesome commbo of ticket sales, DVD sales, BR sales and then dump it on NF a year or two later to scoop up the last bits of revenue. Now that consumers are conditioned to sit home on the couch or in front of a tablet watching digital streams, the optical disc sale is bottom of the barrel.
Movie studios dug their own grave dumping all their TV shows and movies on streaming services over 20 years. They conditioned the consumer.
If movie studios are thinking that wont work anymore because people dont care about buying discs and there's too much digital content, so most people will just watch what's on streaming, then too bad.
When streaming wasnt big yet, I'm sure movie companies were all gung ho on the awesome commbo of ticket sales, DVD sales, BR sales and then dump it on NF a year or two later to scoop up the last bits of revenue. Now that consumers are conditioned to sit home on the couch or in front of a tablet watching digital streams, the optical disc sale is bottom of the barrel.
Movie studios dug their own grave dumping all their TV shows and movies on streaming services over 20 years. They conditioned the consumer.
Doom85
Member
Considering how many people just binge shows on Netflix and such, often for a longer time than it would take to watch most movies, I don’t think this is much of a factor.
And I don’t think VR or gimmicks is a good way to go. Look at how confident theaters and especially TV manufacturers were that 3D would be here to stay. We all know how that turned out. Just focus on making movies and not cheap distractions. VR is more exciting for games as it draws us into an experience we’re controlling. With film, it just feels like a distraction and honestly would feel disrespectful to me to directors and cinematographers who work hard on their craft in making shows that are meant to be viewed exactly as they intended.
pramod
Banned
Also im just thinking how long can the current streaming business model last. Theres just too much competition and eventually they will start eating into each others profits. We dont even know if any of them are actually profitable.
My own prediction evetually all the streaming services will have ads. So in the end all we got is just what we had before with regular free TV but now we have to pay for it.
My own prediction evetually all the streaming services will have ads. So in the end all we got is just what we had before with regular free TV but now we have to pay for it.
Nobody_Important
“Aww, it’s so...average,” she said to him in a cold brick of passion
Matt Damon is full of shit and trying to protect his industry. Which I don't blame him for doing, but 2020 opened peoples eyes to a world of entertainment outside of theaters that goes beyond just streaming. People discovered YouTube channels for example that scratched the same itches that shows on cable did while being more direct and more personal while costing them an internet bill rather than a full ass cable bill.
People discovered that weekend entertainment went beyond the usual societal norms that had been established in decades prior.
It might be the best thing to happen to entertainment as a whole in decades.
People discovered that weekend entertainment went beyond the usual societal norms that had been established in decades prior.
It might be the best thing to happen to entertainment as a whole in decades.
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StreetsofBeige
Gold Member
Agreed.
I dont watch YTers often, but I have a few channels I'll watch here and there. Action Lab is a good one, and I like checking out random foodies who travel the world eating weird food or awesome cheap food I'd never do. So cool to see great food being available in street markets for like $1.50. While here the food looks worse and they'd be $15.
These are literally done by one or two people. One person is the main host and perhaps their friend is there helping out with camera work or occasionally pops into the video too.
You dont need $200M movies with TV ads and actors on talk shows to have a good time watching media.
AmuroChan
Member
I don't see any reasons why anything he said is untrue. He knows the industry as well as anyone out there. He also has his own production company and knows first hand what the challenges are these days in getting certain movies made in Hollywood. I think he's speaking strictly about Hollywood and not alternative mediums like YT.
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Nobody_Important
“Aww, it’s so...average,” she said to him in a cold brick of passion
Bingo. I myself discovered interests that I never had. I discovered that I enjoy watching artists at work for example. Whether it be some blacksmith forging a knife, a watchmaker cleaning and restoring a broke as fuck watch, or even just some experts answering internet questions about their jobs whether it be a professional wine taster or a freaking undertaker.
Not only that but it opened my eyes to channels covering of hobbies I already had before the collapse that I didn't know existed. I found out there are whole channels dedicated to Warhammer tabletop battles, MTG channels with daily deck uploads, car channels that cover everything from nonsense to serious historical coverage, etc etc. Just a never ending list of content that costs me $80 a month and not $200+ like my whole package did.
I have never had a more form fitting entertainment package in my whole life than before the pandemic forced me to cancel my cable service to save money.
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pramod
Banned
One thing that Youtube does is that sets it apart is that its like Reddit for videos. Popular vids get pushed up and you can see exactly how many views and likes a video has. You can even comment. No regular streaming service will ever have that kind of built in social interaction.
BigDeadFreak
Member
I was just going to post the exact same thing.
The days of talented auteurs leaving film school and being trusted by studios to realise their cinematic vision is long gone. People like Scorsese, Lucas, Spielberg and Coppola don't come along anymore and none of their original films would be made these days.
Taxi Driver, Star Wars, Jaws and The Godfather barely have a single black or LGBT character in them and most of the women have nothing to say (Princess Leia is the only real exception and even then she's in the background most of the time). However, these films were huge and are still loved by millions of people today, including many of the groups who complain about their under-representation.
What we get now is an endless sea of grey sludge, made by committee and designed not to offend anyone. Add in the messaging and it's completely off putting to most people. This has even affected the mid-budget films which should be an opportunity for up and coming directors to try out new ideas. Instead they are just cheaper versions of the same anodyne crap.
poppabk
Cheeks Spread for Digital Only Future
Man I wish Star Wars launched today - just to see the anti-woke and woke reactions to Darth Vader. The father of Luke and Leia, dressed all in black, played by a white guy but dubbed over by a black guy, and he is evil.
JimmyRustler
Member
Well, sure. That’s one of the reasons. But there are many others and I think this isn‘t even the biggest reason.
StreetsofBeige
Gold Member
One thing that seemed to kill movie sales is that they skew to big budget kinds of movies or family friendly "take the kids to shut them up" kinds of flicks. Superhero and cartoons.
With streaming, I think what people realized is there's no point spending money to go out and watch a romcom or drama when you can watch something similar at home. Or just wait a year and it'll come to streaming. Those kinds of movies dont require giant screens, rumble seats, THX sound etc....
But before streaming you had no choice. You either go to the theater or buy the DVD that might costs even more than the ticket. So might as well watch it in the theatre.
With streaming, I think what people realized is there's no point spending money to go out and watch a romcom or drama when you can watch something similar at home. Or just wait a year and it'll come to streaming. Those kinds of movies dont require giant screens, rumble seats, THX sound etc....
But before streaming you had no choice. You either go to the theater or buy the DVD that might costs even more than the ticket. So might as well watch it in the theatre.
Wildebeest
Member
Even things like the Marvel movies they seem to be very tight with budget and time for things like the CGI work. I think that, fundamentally, the business people just don't care about doing what it takes to make something really great these days. Maybe that is because soulless mega corps like Disney own everything, or the consumers are just basically undereducated and don't understand or appreciate good things, so few people bother.
Doom85
Member
Pretty sure no one would be focused on Vader but instead questioning Lucas on what’s with the whole incest angle…
Both the woke and anti-woke:
pramod
Banned
Movies these days are just nowhere as creative or risky as the ones being made 20 yrs ago. These days its 80% superhero crap or a sequel/remake.
I lool back to the late 90s and early 00s and it just blows me away how much variety there was in the blockbuster movies of those days and how much Hollywood was willing to risk on high concept movies. Even action thrillers like FaceOff tried some crazy ideas u wouldnt see in todays movies. And there were successful movies in every genre from historical drama to scifi to comedy to horror. These days i cant imagine movies like The Truman Show or Event Horizon being greenlit by a Hollywood studio.
I lool back to the late 90s and early 00s and it just blows me away how much variety there was in the blockbuster movies of those days and how much Hollywood was willing to risk on high concept movies. Even action thrillers like FaceOff tried some crazy ideas u wouldnt see in todays movies. And there were successful movies in every genre from historical drama to scifi to comedy to horror. These days i cant imagine movies like The Truman Show or Event Horizon being greenlit by a Hollywood studio.
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Billbofet
Member
I think another big thing hurting the movie industry is that tv has become a riskier and more artistic venue, and I think people are more willing to put their time into tv over movies.
As a way to make more content for the bloated streaming service options, they are forced to take chances and see what sticks. This has lead to some amazing stuff.
Movies are mostly just chasing nostalgia or building a cinematic universe which, at least for me, has really lost its luster.
As a way to make more content for the bloated streaming service options, they are forced to take chances and see what sticks. This has lead to some amazing stuff.
Movies are mostly just chasing nostalgia or building a cinematic universe which, at least for me, has really lost its luster.
sol_bad
Member
Ummmm. Not true.
Which of these movies that are coming out over the next 4 months are comic based or sequels/remakes?
Beast
The Invitation
Three Thousand Years of Longing
Breaking
Barbarian
Pearl
The Woman King
Don't Worry Darling
Smile
Amsterdam
The Banshees of Insherin
Ticket to Paradise
The Menu
Devotion
Strange World
Violent Night
Empire of Light
Babylon
Saying that 80% of films is super hero crap or sequels/remakes is factually untrue. The studios certainly aren't allergic to new ideas or new adaptations but audiences certainly are allergic to giving new ideas or new adaptations a try at the cinemas. Hence the reason studios don't spend 100+ million on new ideas/adaptations. You want new ideas, you need to support the smaller budgeted films.
It's not the studios fault, it's the audiences fault.
pramod
Banned
You proved my point no one has heard of these movies they are all indie. Major studios no longer want to take any risk on original films.
sol_bad
Member
I didn't prove you right at all. The studios are still making a lot of original content that aren't comic or sequel based.
pramod
Banned
That was my point
sol_bad
Member
Maybe you should look into that list if films and support some none comic movies.
FunkMiller
Member
It's more than fair enough to say that there is still a diverse range of movies being made... and that's always been the case.
But in the specific arena of large budget, Hollywood production, things have never been worse in terms of the types of films being made. There is a non stop glut of Disneyfied CGI nonsense that's clogging up cinemas all the time. It's why Top Gun did so bloody well, because it was something different for the masses to grab hold of.
The lack of diversity in the modern blockbuster is absolutely the studio's fault. One in particular.
Sosokrates
Report me if I continue to console war
Movies are struggling?
Theres more ways then ever to sell movies these days, weather it be the several streaming platforms, direct to the consumer digitally, advertising deals etc
Even a small budget artsy film like
Theres more ways then ever to sell movies these days, weather it be the several streaming platforms, direct to the consumer digitally, advertising deals etc
Even a small budget artsy film like
Nomadland with a budget of $5million made $39million in the box office and money through deals with streaming platforms
JCK75
Member
I can only speak for my own viewing habits.
I used to go see all sorts of movies at the theaters, but while I'm not in fear of COVID so much, I tend to reserve theater trips these days to only major movies I REALLY want to see on the big screen..
When had been releasing both in theaters and home streaming I would pay the big bucks to be able to watch it at home.
I mean what he's saying makes perfect sense, but I also feel they need to adapt better to the new market.. get it to streaming faster than before, price it fairly and make sure it's available on as many services as possible.
I used to go see all sorts of movies at the theaters, but while I'm not in fear of COVID so much, I tend to reserve theater trips these days to only major movies I REALLY want to see on the big screen..
When had been releasing both in theaters and home streaming I would pay the big bucks to be able to watch it at home.
I mean what he's saying makes perfect sense, but I also feel they need to adapt better to the new market.. get it to streaming faster than before, price it fairly and make sure it's available on as many services as possible.
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Interfectum
Member
Streaming is a poison pill to consumers and the industry it's in.
Starts off cheap and gains a ton of subs. But as subscriptions start to stagnant, capitalism demands constant growth. Incoming on price hikes, ads and streamlining the production process to save money. It fucked music, it will fuck movies/tv and most definitely fuck over the AAA games market.
Right now Game Pass is awesome because you are getting $60-70 games for 'free.' But once it becomes more about the subscription than the retail market those games will change at their core. You will no longer get these full packaged $70 titles on the service.
Starts off cheap and gains a ton of subs. But as subscriptions start to stagnant, capitalism demands constant growth. Incoming on price hikes, ads and streamlining the production process to save money. It fucked music, it will fuck movies/tv and most definitely fuck over the AAA games market.
Right now Game Pass is awesome because you are getting $60-70 games for 'free.' But once it becomes more about the subscription than the retail market those games will change at their core. You will no longer get these full packaged $70 titles on the service.
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dr_octagon
Banned
sol_bad
Member
Disney clogging up cinemas? Again, there are plenty of non Disney movies for you to see and Disney aren't stopping you from watching them.
If you actively hate what Disney are releasing, maybe ignore what they are doing and focus on what over studios are releasing. Word of mouth is key, so spread the word about none Disney films.
PaddyOCanager
Member
Creativity has been steadily declining in America for over 20 years. You can blame whatever structures you want for the situation movies are in, but you can't escape that simple fact. We have become lazy and complacent, and our art reflects it. Movies were better decades ago because the people making them and consuming them were objectively more creative than the Americans living today.
kittoo
Cretinously credulous
https://youtu.be/r3mCQyJI2MI?t=50
TLDW: Streaming has significantly reduced the ceiling on how much money a movie can make today. DVD revenue going extinct forces studios away from the mid budget type of films.
Hot damn thats a nice head of hair Brad has got.
Crayon
Member
I see maybe 1 movie a year and its usually by accident. I went to visit my friend because his brother was in town and we all sort of grew up together.
We watched guardians of the galaxy 2. I was gobsmacked that adults watch this stuff. It was like.... a videogame. An average one. If you were to string together a bunch of cutscenes from a game it would look alot like that movie.
We watched guardians of the galaxy 2. I was gobsmacked that adults watch this stuff. It was like.... a videogame. An average one. If you were to string together a bunch of cutscenes from a game it would look alot like that movie.
sol_bad
Member
I'm sure you realise there would have been people that said the same thing about movies in the 70s/80s/90s?
How many people that loved movies in the 80s also loved many movies pfrom the 50s and 60s? Same today, how many teenagers that love movies right now would care about films from the 80s and 90s?
BigDeadFreak
Member
I remember when this trend for superhero movies came along. I saw a couple of them (Spiderman, Hellboy, Batman) and always came out of the cinema thinking they were pretty average. Not offensively bad but just 3 star movies. I was then amazed to read that some of them were considered instant classics. Genuinely great films that were getting 5 star reviews. I really couldn't understand what other people were seeing that I was missing.
PaddyOCanager
Member
Creativity according to the studies has been decreasing since the 90s. People in the 80s possibly wouldn't love movies from the 50s and 60s, but the film industry was getting objectively better than those previous decades so it isn't a fair comparison.
As far as teenagers today caring about movies from the 80s and 90s..........I mean, all you have to do is go on YouTube and look for the massive numbers on reaction videos for older movies and older music. Those would be the teenagers who love movies today, and they apparently love the old stuff too.
However, I don't think the overall population of teenagers today care about movies at all. They only make up about 15% of moviegoers. It's tough to find streaming data on strictly movies, but YouTube is what teenagers are watching most regardless.
GeorgioCostanzaX
Gold Member
TBH COVID was the final nail in the coffin mid tier is dead at the box office and studios need to just face reality and embrace streaming even if the profits are lower. Films like Top Gun and Avengers are better experiences on the big screen Make sense but there’s no way I’m watching any of the above for $20 per family member when I could just wait 90 days and stream it. I actually am buying new movies on iTunes more than I used to because they’ve started releasing even earlier than that usually did like $10 more. I got a lot more enjoyment out of Mando than Solo (which was fine but rushed) for example which is a perfect reason why cinema and network TV sucks now: it has to hit big or you don’t get to finish the story.
sol_bad
Member
Please show these studies that show creativity is down. You can't say movies from the 80's/90's are objectively better than movies from the 50's/60's, everyone has differing opinions about the art form.
Also, YouTube does not represent the world, chances are these Youtube channels are built around exploring old movies which would not be the general populace. Just ask your kids or nephews/neices or friends kids if any of them care or anyone from their school care about movies from the 80's/90's.
Proof that 15% of movie goers are teenagers?
Even if a mid tier film fails at the box office, it's still making money that it wouldn't have made if it went straight to streaming or DVOD.
Just look at the failure that is The 355. It's budget was between 40 and 75 million dollars and it's box office was 28 million.
https://www.boxofficemojo.com/title/tt8356942/?ref_=bo_se_r_1
https://www.the-numbers.com/movie/355-The-(2021)#tab=video-sales
If they released this directly on streaming or DVOD, that's 28 million they simply wouldn't have made and it would have been an even bigger miserable failure for the studio.
Movies never make anywhere near the same amount of money on the home market compared to the box office. Just look at Iron Man as an example which released around the time that streaming started to happen.
https://www.the-numbers.com/movie/Iron-Man#tab=video-sales
It made over 500 million in a significantly short time frame at the box office and then made nearly 200 million on the USA home market. The home market took 10+ years to achieve those numbers though. Other countries home market sales would be significantly less than America just based on population.
Then look at a modern smash hit, The Batman.
https://www.the-numbers.com/movie/Batman-The-(2021)#tab=video-sales
767 million at the box office and then a measly 10 million on the home market. Yes, digital sales will make up a bit, unfortunately we don't have those numbers but I can guarantee it didn't make 700+ million in digital sales.
Look at The Lost City which released this year. a mid tier film with a budget of 68 million.
https://www.the-numbers.com/movie/Lost-City-The-(2022)#tab=summary
It made between 180 and 190 million at the box office. Just 4 million on the home market, again, digital sales will be higher but won't match the box office. If it released straight to digital, that's 180 million dollars they simply don't get.
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GeorgioCostanzaX
Gold Member
TBH I think part of the problem with profitability in the home market right now is short sightedness. Every media company has a platform when realistically Sony and MGM are making more money producing stuff for Netflix instead of trying to make that money themselves. Licensing content used to be a huge revenue stream that’s largely been self canibalized. Don’t get me wrong I love having every Star Wars film on Disney plus but you have to wonder if they made more money licensing those out to cable and Netflix who had an interest in keeping that content on their platform year over year.
PaddyOCanager
Member
Creativity Scores in America Have Steadily Declined Since 1990. Why? - Intellectual Takeout
Prompted by my nine-year-old’s son’s emerging interest in photography, I have been introduced to the life and legacy of Ansel Adams, the renowned 20th-century
intellectualtakeout.org
In U.S., Library Visits Outpaced Trips to Movies in 2019
Of nine leisure activities, visiting a library is the one Americans did most frequently in the past year, followed by attending movies and live sporting events.
news.gallup.com
Who Goes to the Movies?
Ever wondered who's actually going to see movies at the theater? Don't worry we're unpacking it all by the numbers...
www.movieguide.org
I didn't say movies were objectively better, I said the film industry was objectively better. The film/theater industry nearly crashed until the 1970s changed everything.
The History of Movies
saylordotorg.github.io
But yeah, arguing theater audience demographics is kind of muddy and pointless I guess. Covid screwed everything and theaters are probably going to die regardless.
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