Kokoloko85
Member
Deus ex is a RPG.
But I guess RPG’s are talking sims lol
But I guess RPG’s are talking sims lol
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do you hate immersive sims ? if so then why?
- Thread starter samoilaaa
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I don't care what it's called, but as Denton said, it's a "design philosophy" and they have to chose a name for it to tell the audience that the X game is built on that design philosophy.
And games you mentioned could have elements of that "philosophy" but not entirely built on it.
Wildebeest
Member
Immersive sim means that if it is an FPS with a female character, you can look down and see her boobies. And that's just sexist, I think we can all agree.
The artful mincer
Member
I think Immersive sim is even more stupid than character action as a genre name but I enjoy the games well enough
ProgenitorCastle
Banned
That's the most GAF comment I've read on here in a while XD
On topic- I think I like immersive sims but haven't played much of them if at all.
NightmareFarm
Member
I hear Deathloop is an immersive sim. I really like the control you have with the environment and how you can use so many tools at your disposal.
FBeeEye
Banned
You answered your own question. Gamers by and large are impatient and lazy.
brian0057
Banned
The philosophy of Bioshock is objectivism.
But you won't see the term used in marketing, on the box, or anywhere within the game.
It's a horror game inspired by System Shock. That's how you sell the game. Not with "Oh, it's an immersive sim [fart noises]."
Even people in this very thread can't even agree on a concrete definition.
Also, having elements of a certain genre doesn't make the game part of said genre. Saying Call of Duty is a stealth game because you sneak in a couple of missions is like saying Silent Hill 2 is a third person shooter just because you can shoot stuff.
Perfectly good genres already exist.
There's no need to invent new and increasingly meaningless ones.
The Cockatrice
Gold Member
I dont know why its so hard to define immersive sim for you guys. Sure its a very open term however it is most of the time used for first-person rpg's. That is it. If your game is third person its not an immersive sim. It also needs intricate level designs so Far Cry for example cannot be considered one even if it has rpg elements and its in first person. Cyberpunk on the other hand is the middle ground. It has all the basics of immersive sim, stealth and action, rpg mechanics, lots of levels where you can choose to tackle them however you want, but they are all placed in one big open world. Fallout 3/4 might also be called immersive sims but again, its mostly on a open world map. Basically if its like the classic Bioshock, Prey, Dishonored, Deus Ex, etc., they are immersive sims in my eyes. Everything else is not. Now move on from arguing about its definition jfucking lol
Arachnid
Member
Nah, they're my second favorite genre after survival horror. Nothing like immersing yourself in an alien world, learning lore, and actually having to think about your approach. We still get GOAT tier immersive sims to this day too, so it didn't die off like survival horror did (though it seems to be making a comeback thanks to REs return to form). Half Life: Alyx, Prey, and Dishonored 1/2 are all fantastic.
I'd agree for 1, but definitely not 2. The sheer variety in builds and approaches, combined with some of the most complex level design I've ever seen in a game (clockwork mansion and crack in the slab should win awards; legit insane)?
I've always taken it to be more of a design philosophy (like someone said above). Same idea as "survival horror", though some really take issue with it being referred to as it's own genre too.
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GymWolf
Gold Member
Weird west is technically an immersive sim and has isometric view.
If you can manipulate objects and interact with the world the point of view doens't really matter for the immersive sims genre.
now, do i vastly prefer first person in my immersive sims? that's another matter entirely.
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GymWolf
Gold Member
No, metro is more of a slowly paced kinda cinematic fps, never played stalker but never heard anyone calling it an immersive sim.
Think about deus ex, thief, dishonored, prey from arkane, dark messiah (that one was more action oriented tho)
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Roni
Member
financial reasons that stem from the fact you need to invest a lot more money for content and players, on average, aren't interested nor are hardcore enough to appreciate the choices.
there's still a stigma around playing games and people don't often discuss it in public, immersive Sims shine when you talk about them and find out the game can vary so much.
brian0057
Banned
But at least Survival Horror conveys a sense of what you might play.
"OK, it's survival? That means you have to survive... something. Oh, it's horror. So you have to survive in a horror situation. Or maybe survive something horrific."
You can sell a game with that.
Immersive Sims, on the other hand...
"Yeah, what does Sim stand for? Oh, simulation. What does it simulate?
I don't know. It depends on the game.
Uhm... OK. Then what makes it immersive? Uh... the freedom? I guess?. Oh, and it's first person.
Oh like Minecraft?
Well, no."
Like I said, it makes no sense.
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The artful mincer
Member
They should probably just be called first person rpgs then! That describes it games at least.
However if I was nitpicking twat ( I am ) I would say rpg is equally stupid. Role playing game wow that narrows down shit...
RPG is to ingrained in gamer culture to push back against but immersive sim is still small so I will fight against it dammit!
SmokedMeat
Gamer™
Not really as Weird West is considered an immersive sim as well.
Taken from Wikipedia: An immersive sim (simulation) is a video game genre that emphasizes player choice. Its core, defining trait is the use of simulated systems that respond to a variety of player actions which, combined with a comparatively broad array of player abilities, allow the game to support varied and creative solutions to problems, as well as emergent gameplay beyond what has been explicitly designed by the developer.
SlimeGooGoo
Banned
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cinnamonandgravy
Member
weird term
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The artful mincer
Member
Genre names should be able to describe it games to a lay person and eliminate games that aren't in it.
First person shooter and third person shooter do, beat em up does, racing game and sports game check. Many others are fine however
Immersive sim... what?
Character action... eh?
RPG.... you what mate?
Arachnid
Member
True, but with survival horror, that same take is what people I've argued with try to use to discredit it as a genre. Their arguments boil down to "Any horror game can be survival horror since you try to survive every horror game. Therefore, [insert action horror game here] is still survival horror." The name doesn't convey what the genre actually is, and if you simplify it to just the name, it misses the point. I actually think "immersive sim" as a genre title is more appropriate than "survival horror".
To be fair, I'm not as big of an immersive sim encyclopedia as I am with survival horror, so I can't define it as in-depth as I could the latter and I'm sure anyone can poke holes in any take I give. I can try to take a crack at it though.
I've always considered immersive sims games that simulate an almost alien world. The games are more small sandbox in nature than truly open. You can have variety in how you build or customize your character, though this isn't always present; how much variety does Bioshock or Thief really have? You really just need choice in abilities that actually help you interact with the world (a hacking ability to open a vent/take over a turret, warging into rats to get into pipes, mind control to influence NPCs and get info, electric abilities to take out a group standing in water, etc...). You navigate levels with intricate design while the main focus of the game is more on learning about the world than just navigating through it (emails, scattered books, NPC conversations, etc...). The immersive part of the name comes in due to that specific focus (as does the first person view point). Immersive sims are all about becoming part of the word and interacting with it IMO, to a degree most other games really don't attempt. That density in info and choice makes it difficult to design an open world game around the philosophy (Cyberpunk tried, but didn't have the depth Deus Ex did, for example). As long as they keep that focus, they can incorporate different genres like horror, RPG, stealth, or sci-fi, without really losing that immersive sim heart. Fallout kind of fits into the above, but IMO it doesn't have that density or level design that Deus Ex, Prey, or Dishonored 2 have.
I can also see why the genre would be considered a bit more muddy than most others though. One interesting argument I've heard pop up throughout the years are with those who try to argue Splinter Cell to be an immersive sim. The world is in no way alien (though it does have some futuristic tech we definitely don't have like AI kernels and some of Fishers crazier gear in newer games), and it's in third person, but would that be enough to exclude it from the genre? Chaos Theory, especially, had the emails, NPC convos, and sand box design with fantastic level layouts. TBH, idk. I've always kept out of this specific argument, though I would lean towards no. SC is just third person stealth to me.
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Love them, but it's weird it's called a genre by many. It isn't and never has been. It's a design philosophy.
Modern Imsims are way to focused on nostalgia design. for instance Prey is the modern interpretation of System Shock. But I feel this interpretation of the philosophy is all wrong. These games are not about 'escape room with systemic driven gameplay attached to is'. These games are about the interpretation of game mechanics and systems into consistent simulations. Story driven games set Immersive environments that are built around consistent systemic problem solving.
To create spaces that could function on their own (using AI and complex game-logic level physics and chemistry simulations) so the player gets this feeling of being apart of the world. Instead of (like every game ever) the world revolving around the player.
These games are exceptionally hard to make, so I understand why modern big budget outings tend to take the safe route. But this philosophy was supposed to evolve as the tech matured more and more. The evolution kinda stopped in the 00's, but due to the MIT level crowd it attracted and the low sales numbers, there have been fewer and fewer of them. so it's a shame we haven't seen the peak of what this game philosophy can bring to game design.
Interesting read on the design philosophy:
https://rosodudemods.wordpress.com/2020/12/14/immersive-sim-is-a-design-philosophy-not-a-genre/
Modern Imsims are way to focused on nostalgia design. for instance Prey is the modern interpretation of System Shock. But I feel this interpretation of the philosophy is all wrong. These games are not about 'escape room with systemic driven gameplay attached to is'. These games are about the interpretation of game mechanics and systems into consistent simulations. Story driven games set Immersive environments that are built around consistent systemic problem solving.
To create spaces that could function on their own (using AI and complex game-logic level physics and chemistry simulations) so the player gets this feeling of being apart of the world. Instead of (like every game ever) the world revolving around the player.
These games are exceptionally hard to make, so I understand why modern big budget outings tend to take the safe route. But this philosophy was supposed to evolve as the tech matured more and more. The evolution kinda stopped in the 00's, but due to the MIT level crowd it attracted and the low sales numbers, there have been fewer and fewer of them. so it's a shame we haven't seen the peak of what this game philosophy can bring to game design.
Interesting read on the design philosophy:
https://rosodudemods.wordpress.com/2020/12/14/immersive-sim-is-a-design-philosophy-not-a-genre/
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brian0057
Banned
Even then, they're already conceding that it's a horror game, whether Survival is apt or not.
Right there you can sell the game with just the genre alone.
Immersive sim is just too nebulous. And the range of games classified is so wide it's basically meaningless.
And this is without bringing up actual simulation games which, by definition, are immersive.
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In short: usually Action adventure like games that are built around a consistent/systemic problem solving, set in a highly reactive world/setting.
SlimeGooGoo
Banned
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remember_spinal
Banned
Arachnid
Member
I can agree that the name doesn't really sell the game, but that may just be because most people never really heard of the genre. We have gamers in this very thread who never heard of it. Meanwhile, I've been aware of the concept for a decade, or potentially 2. A lot of people don't know what survival horror is, despite being sold on the "horror" part of it alone. Does a title need to sell to the masses for it to be accurate? What about a cRPG vs RPGs as a whole? Is that deserving of a distinction just because of the character/NPC focus? I don't really have an answer to either of the questions in this paragraph (not sure there really is an answer to them vs takes), so I guess they're more rhetorical.
I guess that brings me to an an actual question. Do you not see certain similarities between games that would be considered immersive sims? For me, the second I hear a game is an immersive sim, it comes with certain expectations of what that game will bring to the table. So far, I feel like those expectations have been met with the immersive sims people have recommended to me.
Nautilus
Banned
Yeah, this. Never understood the term "immersive sim" as it simply doesn't describe nor diferenciaty what it does that is so different from the other genres it should clearly belong to.
Guilty_AI
Gold Member
What other people call immersive sims, i call good game design. This and 'emergent gameplay'.
The idea is a game with well defined/design systems that are consistent and can be used throught for solving problems in a way that isn't 'hard-coded' so to say. BUT THATS WHAT GOOD GAMES SHOULD BE DOING IN THE FIRST PLACE.
I guess people just grew used to shitty design and nonsensical mechanics *cough* rockstar *cough*
The idea is a game with well defined/design systems that are consistent and can be used throught for solving problems in a way that isn't 'hard-coded' so to say. BUT THATS WHAT GOOD GAMES SHOULD BE DOING IN THE FIRST PLACE.
I guess people just grew used to shitty design and nonsensical mechanics *cough* rockstar *cough*
Lol. True, you finally reached below 70. Impressed you've read the whole thing.
Here's another one to digest:
All jokes aside, it a pretentious name for sure, and a bad one it that. But that's not the original designers fault it got caught into it's current modern 'genre' trapping. The goal was to push interactive world and story design forward instead of falling into conventional tropes like all mainstream genres. That's why it's a design philosophy, every genre can benefit from these 'systemically reactive' design concepts.
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brian0057
Banned
I do. But mostly because the foundations of the genre were all made by Looking Glass Studios and their offspring in Ion Storm Austin. So them having similarities is a given.
Everything else is just quotations of their work. That's why my mind goes to Looking Glass when people talk about these types of games. It's their style.
I honestly prefer the "451 game" nomenclature. Right off the bat, you can tell it's a game inspired by, or made by people from, Looking Glass.
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The Cockatrice
Gold Member
But Dishonored is not an RPG. It has some rpg elements and thats why I dont think they should be called that. I dunno, everyone can call them whatever they want, genres and games have evolved too much since back then so its really hard these days to distinguish rpg's from action like take AC Odyssey for example (dialogue choices, char choice, leveling system, item stats, stealth elements, etc.)
I heard ppl call it that, but I dont. Weird West and there was another game Seven are far from immersive. I prefer my top view to be strictly action-only(diablo) or pure crpg(divinity, bg). Stealth does not work well at least it did not for me in that game Seven which is why I wont touch WW either.
existensmaximum
Member
I absolutely adore the first Deus Ex game. One of my favourite games of all time and it still holds up admirably except for the graphics. Human Revolution though.. Meh. It's OK, but it felt dumbed down and the story, plotlines and locations paled in comparison. I also felt that all choices were too streamlined with too predictable consequences.
Never could get into Dishonored. Deathloop (if that counts?) Kind of mediocre with some good ideas, but not so great execution. Also, the rogue-like elements really put me off.
So I don't know? The genre can be very fun and rewarding.
Never could get into Dishonored. Deathloop (if that counts?) Kind of mediocre with some good ideas, but not so great execution. Also, the rogue-like elements really put me off.
So I don't know? The genre can be very fun and rewarding.
GigaBowser
The bear of bad news
They're amazing. You better buy them because I want more.
Companion Cube
Member
Sounds more sandbox than sim.
ZehDon
Gold Member
Back when the term was first coined, we didn't really have system-driven games, hence the call for a term to describe that kind of design philosophy. The term "immersive sim" doesn't cover "stealth" or "RPG", those were just the first types of games that used the core "immersive sim" design philosophies in a deliberate and identifiable way. Instead, "immersive sim" actually covers what we now know as "emergent gameplay": gameplay that arises from the cojoining of game systems, arising in player's solving in-game problems outside of the developer's golden path. This can also be called "sandbox", but that's really a different style altogether. Player expression is the central pillar. The legacy of those milestone titles cannot be understated. Any game that offers action and stealth options, for example, owes more than a lot to the first "immersive sims".
Looking back, immersive sims were typically very ambitious from a pure gameplay perspective, and were usually taken up by developers interested in pushing player interactivity forward. Today, most modern AAA developers aren't interested in doing that at all, and instead, are more interested in the Half-Life approach: building the most exciting roller coaster and paying lip-service to everything else. For the few developers who are interested in pursuing the immersive sim design philosophies, most are still hung up on Deus Ex. So, the closest we get to modern immersive sims are actually games stuck in the "0451" sub-sub-genre, mostly coming out of Arcane or from Looking Glass ex-pats. The focus is on combat, because that's what sells, and offering the player lots of creative ways to maim and kill, mixed up with basic stealth systems, and some form of in-world reaction to players killing or not killing their opponents.
As Spectre lamented, when presented with an honest choice in games, most players will simply freeze. They want a nice clear objective, some pretty cut scenes to tell them a story, and to murder rooms of baddies. For this reason, immersive sims have historically killed the studios that make them. But make no mistake: "immersive sims" are a design philosophy unto themselves, and they extend well past Looking Glass' legendary efforts.
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Arachnid
Member
Oh, I see. I completely misunderstood your argument, despite the fact that you stated it clearly twice lmao. I thought you meant there isn't any bleedover between games considered "immersive sims", so putting them in their own category doesn't make sense. You specifically just want a different term to refer to them as a whole. My bad
Captain Toad
Banned
No idea what immersive sim is. The examples given sound like just various single-player games to me.
brian0057
Banned
Pretty much.
And don't worry. At some point, we all misunderstand something in this endless void we call the internet.
Buggy Loop
Member
I would add STALKER in there i believe?
poodaddy
Member
Dude fuck these pretentious blogs of people overthinking rudimentary concepts and presenting them as over intellectuallized "collegiate" style lectures.
Those who go to great lengths to present the persona of intelligence to the world around them are faux intellectuals at best. The true intellectual realizes the value of playing the fool. I've found, (and this is extremely consistent), that those with a predilection towards lofty language and an adversity towards plain speak tend to often be saying far less than the overwhelming amount of hot air leaving their mouths would imply.
To summarize, SlimeGooGoo is right, and you're trying too hard and talking down to others while doing it. Chill man, this forum is home, and you don't have to impress us brethren; we'll love and accept you just the way you are
. Sorry if that came off combative in any way, not my intent, but I don't like seeing others get spoken down to for calling out faux intellectual bullshit. It's like the people who claim they can tell the difference between 3, 5, and 10 year red wines due to nebulous nonsense like changes to the wine's "body, pallette, and aftertaste" from additional fermentation. I adore wine, and I'm here to tell ya.... those folks are full of shit. Just distilled pomp and jackassery, the likes of which have managed to infiltrate several gaming communities, much to their detriment. On topic: Immersive sims are easily my favorite genre, and I truly wish they sold more. I don't quite understand why they can't get a foothold amongst modern audiences. If you enjoy clever level design and meaningful player agency, I can't think of a better genre to explore.
Laptop1991
Member
I don't class the Dishonored's as immersive sims, and i'm not sure what an immersive sim exactly is to be honest, Prey is a good game, but i didn't complete it until a few years after i bought it, it's not the same as Dishonored 1 and 2 for me, i bought and played them straight away and replayed them both many times afterwards, but if you don't stealth play them and just kill everything, the games are finished too quick and can miss out on the more hidden and subtle stories and dialogue and items to pick up.
Arsic
Loves his juicy stink trail scent
Aside from Prey all those games are the definition of an expected gamepass game. The “looks good, might play, don’t want to buy day one because game X releases near it and is a guaranteed banger.”
Sort of like how Plague Tale Innocence and Requiem are stellar games , but aren’t immediate must grabs.
TLDR: Games are mid.
Sort of like how Plague Tale Innocence and Requiem are stellar games , but aren’t immediate must grabs.
TLDR: Games are mid.
Lethal01
Member
Their characters, worlds and artstyles just bore me.
Now an immersive sim in the FF7 world? that would be great.