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[ChorizoPicozo]

This is the issue with immersive sims (as I understand )

In one phrase:
They are not user/psychologically friendly. (as in your average gamer)

Their design philosophy is about experimenting and intimately knowing their systems. That requires a lot of time and expertise (from the user) and a design structure that encourages this without feeling "cheap"/artificial or inorganic. This is incredibly hard to do.

I will argue that metal gear has elements of this as well (especially 5)

The average gamer sticks to one 'play style' or the most efficient way to accomplish a task.

I realize this with the latest Hitman, when the game "clicks" thanks to different objectives/the score system in the same level: You are "forced" to repeated the same level and use different tools.

The last part of "repeat the same level" is a no-no in AAA marketing-PR.

 

[Mozzarella]

I like the discussion around the genre because its very interesting, like Hitman is not a purist, but its gameplay purist, you can have gameplay purist like Deus Ex and perspective purist as well, when it aligns first person with emergent gameplay you become very close to the core, but as others said its just a matter up for debate and its not objective definition or genre.

I love them, those games are always very interesting even when they are bad.
A lot of my favorite games come from this pseudo genre, Thief 2, Prey, Deus Ex, Dishonored are all fantastic, I'm going to replay System Shock 2 with mods to see how it is, it has been a long time.
But yeah most games are pretty good, the idea of emergent gameplay is exciting to me and i love immersive setting so its a yes yes for me.

The best thing about them is the emergent gameplay and the level design. Those type of games are what made me appreciate level design and raise my standard in game design as well. I guess without them i would have way lower standards.

 

[Sentenza]

It's one of my favorite genres, but it was never a recipe for commercial success since Ultima Underworld basically defined its common traits.

P.S. I have yet to read the replies, but are we doing once again the moronic little dance where people chime in just to BITCH about the fact that they don't like the name, by any chance?

EDIT - Yes. YES, OF COURSE we fucking are.

This 100%.

"Immersive sim" means jackshit.

Damn, Fuz. I didn't expect you would join the retardo-team even on this.

Also, I love how a good 80% of the people who keep whining about the definition always come up with some fucking laughable alternative:

I hate the term. It makes no sense.

I call them Looking Glass games or Looking Glass inspired.

 

[Lethal01]

Breath of the wild is the best immersive sim.

 

[Agent_Nobody]

I hate immersive sims for making me play them so much.

 

[Sentenza]

But at least Survival Horror conveys a sense of what you might play.

What the fuck are you people even blabbing about, at this point?
The common traits of the genre that usually described as "immersive sim" are more strict and easily identifiable than the ones in most other popular genre names these days.
Starting precisely with stuff like "Survival horror", "RPG", "action adventure".

The only genres that have a narrower definition of what the term implies are the technical ones (city builder, flight simulator, sim or arcade racing game, etc).

I have no idea why this retarded discussion keeps happening every ten months or so for the last 10 years, by the way.
Each one of you embraces dozens of genre names that are FAR more idiotic, vague and undescriptive than "immersive sim". And if you are one of these wankers who think the term is "pretentious", that's called "projecting".

 

[CatLady]

They should probably just be called first person rpgs then! That describes it games at least.

However if I was nitpicking twat ( I am ) I would say rpg is equally stupid. Role playing game wow that narrows down shit...

RPG is to ingrained in gamer culture to push back against but immersive sim is still small so I will fight against it dammit!

I didn't even know immersive sim was a genre I thought it was more of a description. I've always thought of the games in the OP as either Action RPG or Action game just far less linear and much deeper stories than the typical 3rd person cinematic graphic games.

 

[Griffon]

The name "immersive sim" is incredibly pompous. My raw instinct is that the name alone is a deterrent (just call that shit RPG-FPS or something that actually describes what it is). The "immersive sim" tag on steam is next to useless because plenty of actual sim games (city builders and such) use it.

Either way, Deus Ex and System Shocks were never huge sellers, and ever since then the genre kept within the same scale. Spending bigger budgets wont make it sell more.

 

[01011001]

The name "immersive sim" is incredibly pompous. My raw instinct is that the name alone is a deterrent.

well it is fitting tho. Immersive because the player is given a lot of freedom both in terms of little to no gameplay interruptions and due to the open ended level design.
controls are usually very deep with many ways to interact or move around the level.

and the Sim part comes from the way the environment is usually very interactive, with destructible objects that help you progress, stuff to throw around or rearrange to get to a certain place you wouldn't be able to without them, and lots and lots of optional stuff scattered around that makes the game world feel organic and believable.
do you need to be able to pick up that ashtray over there? nope, but why would the developer prevent you from doing it anyways? especially because maybe some players figure out a really complicated way to overcome an obstacle by using these seemingly unimportant objects
(and yes I did use an ashtray in Prey once to get into a closed off room... no joke...)

of course the latter one is highly dependent on the time of release as older games in the genre were more limited in the way they could display complex environments.
and the complex and interactive environments also contribute to the "immersive" part of the name, as you have more freedom than usual which helps to immerse yourself in the world

 

[Havoc2049]

Love them, but it's weird it's called a genre by many. It isn't and never has been. It's a design philosophy.

This is the correct answer. Immersive Sim is a design philosophy the can cover multiple genres or mix of genres. It isn't a genre itself. It is usually in a first person perspective that makes the player feel like they are part of a realistic interactive world or as Wikipedia says, "emphasis on non-linear progression, simulated systems, and emergent gameplay."

Ultima Underworld is an action RPG dungeon crawler, it was just the next evolution of first person RPG dungeon crawlers like the Dungeon Master series and the Eye of The Beholder series, except instead of moving around on a grid, your movement was free roaming and the combat felt more fluid (emergent gameplay) .

From Wikipedia:
"Ultima Underworld: The Stygian Abyss is a first-person role-playing video game developed by Blue Sky Productions (later Looking Glass Studios) and published by Origin Systems.

Genre(s)	Action role-playing, dungeon crawl

 

[Verchod]

I do know that all my favourite games are considered immersive sims. I feel sad because because this thread has reminded me how unlikely it is I'll see more of those franchises, and how dull all other games are in comparison

 

[01011001]

This is the correct answer. Immersive Sim is a design philosophy the can cover multiple genres or mix of genres.

well horror is also often used as a genre definition even tho there is no real horror genre.
Resident Evil 1 is an action adventure
Resident Evil 4 is an arcady shooter
both are under the survival horror game umbrella usually tho.

 

[GymWolf]

But Dishonored is not an RPG. It has some rpg elements and thats why I dont think they should be called that. I dunno, everyone can call them whatever they want, genres and games have evolved too much since back then so its really hard these days to distinguish rpg's from action like take AC Odyssey for example (dialogue choices, char choice, leveling system, item stats, stealth elements, etc.)



I heard ppl call it that, but I dont. Weird West and there was another game Seven are far from immersive. I prefer my top view to be strictly action-only(diablo) or pure crpg(divinity, bg). Stealth does not work well at least it did not for me in that game Seven which is why I wont touch WW either.

I played seven, it is an inferior game compared to weird west (with some good ideas tho, not a bad game) and the stealth work well in that one.

I mean, dude, you have 2 hours to return the game to steam, give it a try, the combat is very satisfying.

 

[MidGenRefresh]

It's simple. If you can flush the toilet, the game is an immersive sim.

 

[HL3.exe]

Dude fuck these pretentious blogs of people overthinking rudimentary concepts and presenting them as over intellectuallized "collegiate" style lectures.

Those who go to great lengths to present the persona of intelligence to the world around them are faux intellectuals at best. The true intellectual realizes the value of playing the fool. I've found, (and this is extremely consistent), that those with a predilection towards lofty language and an adversity towards plain speak tend to often be saying far less than the overwhelming amount of hot air leaving their mouths would imply.

To summarize, SlimeGooGoo is right, and you're trying too hard and talking down to others while doing it. Chill man, this forum is home, and you don't have to impress us brethren; we'll love and accept you just the way you are . Sorry if that came off combative in any way, not my intent, but I don't like seeing others get spoken down to for calling out faux intellectual bullshit. It's like the people who claim they can tell the difference between 3, 5, and 10 year red wines due to nebulous nonsense like changes to the wine's "body, pallette, and aftertaste" from additional fermentation. I adore wine, and I'm here to tell ya.... those folks are full of shit. Just distilled pomp and jackassery, the likes of which have managed to infiltrate several gaming communities, much to their detriment.

On topic: Immersive sims are easily my favorite genre, and I truly wish they sold more. I don't quite understand why they can't get a foothold amongst modern audiences. If you enjoy clever level design and meaningful player agency, I can't think of a better genre to explore.

Thanks for the input, but you sorta missed the point there. I think the term in itself is dumb too, I agree. But it's not about 'impressing anyone'. It's about sharing/discussing ideas and why they do or don't work. You said it yourself "I don't quite understand why they can't get a foothold amongst modern audiences"

Trying to understand what makes this design structure tick is fun for me (I work in design myself) and trying to understand why modern audience are more attached to conventional/predictable design tropes. It's part risk aversion, part tech/design stagnation (meaning, not rendering tech, but breakthroughs in persistency/collision/physics tech). We haven't seen the best of what this design philosophy has to offer. I personally find current AAA quite boring as they stagnated immensely and underutilize the strength of what improvisational design can offer to any game. A lot I high concepts designers left the industry around the mid 2010's because they felt the industry was heading into a more homogenised space. More product oriented. Tech pushes stagnated, only serving for visual fidelity purposes, but not evolving the simulation/reactivity complexity all that much. And they where right. I'm personally bored to tears with the likes of Elden Ring and God of War Ragnarok. But it's a shame because they technically look so great, but their inherent verb set (the way I expresse/interpret the given tool and mechanics within a game) is intensely predetermined. (This is not a diss on those titles, 'like what you like' of course).

But, It's refreshing to see some bigger studio's like Nintendo or designers like kojima dip into the immersive sim pool. Hope this reimburse the trend a bit more.

 

[the Guynecologist]

.

 

[GymWolf]

How do we went from "do you like immersive sims" to people getting their panties in a bunch because of the name that describe the genre?

 

[samoilaaa]

While you guys were arguing about Immersive Sims for the millionth fucking time I went and found the actual definition from Looking Glass's old website. It was written sometime between December 1996 and June 1997, although at the time they were calling it 'Immersive Reality' rather than Simulation.

That's the actual definition, from the actual devs who made Ultima Underworld and System Shock while they were making Thief: The Dark Project.

And samoilaaa the reason why these games are becoming niche is because the 'genre' (or design philosophy or whatever you want to call it) died off about 20 fucking years ago. Yeah there was a bit of a comeback in the 2010s, and Prey 2017 got the closest to nailing it, but it's still pretty much dead. It's been dead the entire time, it's like Bruce Willis at the end of Sixth Sense. I mean, most 3D games today use shit that Looking Glass either invented or iterated upon back in the 90s and yet they aren't immersive sims. Do you get what I mean? It's over. And it's been over for a long-ass time. It properly died with Ion Storm Austin but it already had one foot in the grave when Looking Glass went broke in 2000.

as long as games like gloomwood are still made the genre is not dead , and the game is very well recieved

 

[MadPanda]

No, I don’t hate them, quite the opposite actually. I'm often amazed by those games. They're difficult to market and demand more from the player than the usual push the left stick forward and a button or two and that's it. No hate for any of them but they're quite different.

 

[Warablo]

I usually just think of "Bioshock" games like immersive sims. So Prey, Bioshock, Dishonored (but that is more like levels instead of open world), and maybe the upcoming Atomic Heart?

Never really considered Deus Ex as one, but its slightly like it. I just classed that as a RPG.

 

[xrnzaaas]

I love "0451" games, it's a shame there's so few of them coming out. New Deus Ex is probably years away and I'm sceptical about new Bioshock being good. I can only think of System Shock Remake in the near future.

 

[LazyParrot]

The genre as a whole largely depended on a single studio and the PC as a platform, and it essentially died when Looking Glass shut down in 2000 and releasing games of that scope on PC only became financially unviable. A lot of the spiritual successors that came later were simplified to a point where they're basically just action games/shooters.

 

[Lunarorbit]

well it is fitting tho. Immersive because the player is given a lot of freedom both in terms of little to no gameplay interruptions and due to the open ended level design.
controls are usually very deep with many ways to interact or move around the level.

and the Sim part comes from the way the environment is usually very interactive, with destructible objects that help you progress, stuff to throw around or rearrange to get to a certain place you wouldn't be able to without them, and lots and lots of optional stuff scattered around that makes the game world feel organic and believable.
do you need to be able to pick up that ashtray over there? nope, but why would the developer prevent you from doing it anyways? especially because maybe some players figure out a really complicated way to overcome an obstacle by using these seemingly unimportant objects
(and yes I did use an ashtray in Prey once to get into a closed off room... no joke...)

of course the latter one is highly dependent on the time of release as older games in the genre were more limited in the way they could display complex environments.
and the complex and interactive environments also contribute to the "immersive" part of the name, as you have more freedom than usual which helps to immerse yourself in the world

You used that ashtray to get into the morgue didn't you?

I love this discussion. Even when I'm disagreeing with an opinion I end up seeing merit in the argument.

I'm glad there isn't some overruling committee that tells us what terms mean. People have been arguing about what an adventure game means since pitfall and the og Zelda.

 

[samoilaaa]

I love "0451" games, it's a shame there's so few of them coming out. New Deus Ex is probably years away and I'm sceptical about new Bioshock being good. I can only think of System Shock Remake in the near future.

there is that judas game from bioshock creator and gloomwood

 

[Sentenza]

The name "immersive sim" is incredibly pompous.

No, it's not, It's as basic as it gets.
It's composed from two very common English words and the combination has a very specific connotation.

Maybe for people with four fucking words in their everyday dictionary is supposed to sound "sophisticated"?
Or maybe the complaint about the name comes from the people who abuse "immersive" every other word and thinks the word can mean whatever they feel in the mood of the moment?

I usually just think of "Bioshock" games like immersive sims.

Bioshock tries to parrot the genre but the dumbing down is so marked it barely qualifies as one.
For one it lacks the high degree of interactivity and non-linearity, so basically the attempt to have a "simulated environment" rather than a "level".
Prey (2017) would be a far better shot at the formula.

 

[Fitzchiv]

The answer I think is people are thick and lap up the "press O to lower the bridge" shite.

 

[Juza]

The philosophy of Bioshock is objectivism.
But you won't see the term used in marketing, on the box, or anywhere within the game.
It's a horror game inspired by System Shock. That's how you sell the game. Not with "Oh, it's an immersive sim [fart noises]."

Even people in this very thread can't even agree on a concrete definition.
Also, having elements of a certain genre doesn't make the game part of said genre. Saying Call of Duty is a stealth game because you sneak in a couple of missions is like saying Silent Hill 2 is a third person shooter just because you can shoot stuff.

Perfectly good genres already exist.
There's no need to invent new and increasingly meaningless ones.

These games don't sell well anyway, and this term is not used for marketing, just as you said not many people know what this term even means.

But someone like me was not interested in Prey when it announced. especially when they put the name: Prey on it, the game became day 1 when I heard the director in an interview said it is kind of immersive sim. so I guess I'm from the audience and I know what this term means to me.

 

[the Guynecologist]

.

 

[Sentenza]

Ehhhhh... no. The problem with 'Immersive Sim' is that it's actually a combination of 2 very different terms t

The point you are missing is that the term evolved past the first perfunctory name Looking Glass came up with in a different era.

Also, I'm not sure what's so hard to grasp about the fact that "It's actually a first person dungeon crawler" is NOT mutually exclusive (and at the same time NOT an equivalent) of being an immersive sim.
As others pointed across the thread, it's more a matter of design philosophy rather than setting or genre.

Case in point: Ultima Underworld 1 and 2 were immersive sims, Wizardry or Dungeon Commander are NOT. And they were ALL first person RPGs.

I also find FUCKING HYSTERICAL how some people are willing to bend themselves into a Pretzel to come up with "better alternative names" that are fucking dumb to the bone like "Looking-glass-alike" or "0451" in a struggle to be the "anti-conformist rebel" of fucking videogames.

 

[Party McHardy]

I’ve found Project Zomboid to be a Harrowing but immersive simulation despite the dates visuals.

 

[xrnzaaas]

there is that judas game from bioshock creator and gloomwood

I've played the early access version of Gloomwood and I was negatively surprised how limited the game was in terms of freedom (the path to the lighthouse became pretty linear since the mines, the environment isn't very interactive compared to Thief games) and the amount of content. I was definitely expecting more. Now I realize this is EA but to show this little years after announcing the game is still disappointing.

 

[Nautilus]

Breath of the wild is the best immersive sim.

Yeah lol.

By the stupid definition people give to this made up genre, BOTW, MGS 5, and so many others would be "immersive sims" when they are not.

 

[Nautilus]

I didn't even know immersive sim was a genre I thought it was more of a description. I've always thought of the games in the OP as either Action RPG or Action game just far less linear and much deeper stories than the typical 3rd person cinematic graphic games.

This

 

[Nautilus]

well horror is also often used as a genre definition even tho there is no real horror genre.
Resident Evil 1 is an action adventure
Resident Evil 4 is an arcady shooter
both are under the survival horror game umbrella usually tho.

 

[anthraticus]

people play dumbed down mainstream fodder

 

[Sentenza]

Yeah lol.

By the stupid definition people give to this made up genre, BOTW, MGS 5, and so many others would be "immersive sims" when they are not.

The only stupid thing seems to be your understanding of the topic here.

And no, they wouldn't, anyway.

 

[Nautilus]

The only stupid thing seems to be your understanding of the topic here.

And no, they wouldn't, anyway.

Best post of the topic, right here.

 

[Sentenza]

Best post of the topic, right here.

In the end you sad wankers can cry all you want and throw around the same stupid objections you kept making for the last fifteen years (somehow under the delusion of coming off as original and independent thinkers every freaking time).
The name is well-established and well-defined enough and it has been for almost two decades at this point. It also comes with its own well-curated Wikipedia page.

When you use it, most non-openly-subnormal people seem to capable to catch up immediately what is being talked of, without crying out their inferiority complex about "pompous words".
No amount of "lol I don't get it" or laundry list of clever "gotcha" about possible exceptions or borderline titles (that incidentally can apply to every single other genre name used out there) in repeat for the next ten years is going to change a thing.

 

[Nautilus]

In the end you sad wankers can cry all you want and throw around the same stupid objections you kept making for the last fifteen years (somehow under the delusion of coming off as original and independent thinkers every freaking time).
The name is well-established and well-defined enough and it has been for almost two decades at this point. It also comes with its own well-curated Wikipedia page.

When you use it, most non-openly-subnormal people seem to capable to catch up immediately what is being talked of, without crying out their inferiority complex about "pompous words".
No amount of "lol I don't get it" or laundry list of clever "gotcha" about possible exceptions or borderline titles (that incidentally can apply to every single other genre name used out there) in repeat for the next ten years is going to change a thing.

And yet the only one using slurs or less-than-nice words here is you, not the other users that simply does not agree with the definition. But sure, we are the ones who are crying lol.

I think the last time I have ever seen the term "immersive sim" being used to describe a game by a dev was the first Dishonored. There are not even awards for this supposed "genre". As someone here mentioned, immersive sim is more of a design philosophy, one that stands up for a more open ended design in how the player tackles objectives, than a broader term describing a set of games. MSG 5 is a stealth action game, BOTW is a action adventure game, Deus Ex is a RPG, and so on.The term "immersive sim" is being phased out and replaced by the word immersion whenever a game dev wants to inform what design philosophy the game adheres to. So relax, your favorite games aren't dying lol

But sure, bully your way through forcing people to accept your opinion as truth. See how well that works for you.

 

[Sentenza]

I think the last time I have ever seen the term "immersive sim" being used to describe a game by a dev was the first Dishonored.

You just weren't paying fucking attention.

There are not even awards for this supposed "genre". As someone here mentioned, immersive sim is more of a design philosophy

Yeah, I was among the ones that made that statement. It doesn't change ANYTHING.
"Subgenres" are a thing. Otherwise terms like "RPG" these days would be dilute to the point of meaning basically nothing, because there are a million different things labeled as one.
I don't see you guys sperging out in the same hilarious way when someone mentions "action RPG" rather than "tactical RPG" or "JRPGs", on the other hand.
Or when the distinction between an action adventure and a character action game is made.

one that stands up for a more open ended design in how the player tackles objectives

That's not even what it stands for. The main idea at the core of an immersive sim is that it's designed to be systemic and put you in the middle of a somewhat credible environment, governed more by general rules rather than case-by-case scripts.
Having quests with multiple solution is just a byproduct of that design, incidentally.
The "simulated systems" are the heart of an immersive sim: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immersive_sim

than a broader term describing a set of games. MSG 5 is a stealth action game, BOTW is a action adventure game, Deus Ex is a RPG, and so on.

First things first, you are NOT making the clever point you think you are making by pointing that many games overlap on several definitions rather than being boxed strictly into one.
Second, only one of them is an immersive sim, incidentally.

The term "immersive sim" is being phased out and replaced

Nah, it isn't. If anything it cemented over time. Twenty years ago you had people trying to summarize the concept with three fucking paragraphs of convoluted explanations.
And "word IMMERSION" (lolwut?) by itself has NOT the same meaning as saying something is an immersive sim. No idea from where did you even get the idea for that one.

 

[Nautilus]

You just weren't paying fucking attention.


Yeah, I was among the ones that made that statement. It doesn't change ANYTHING.
"Subgenres" are a thing. Otherwise terms like "RPG" these days would be dilute to the point of meaning basically nothing, because there are a million different things labeled as one.
I don't see you guys sperging out in the same hilarious way when someone mentions "action RPG" rather than "tactical RPG" or "JRPGs", on the other hand.
Or when the distinction between an action adventure and a character action game is made.


That's not even what it stands for. The main idea at the core of an immersive sim is that it's designed to be systemic and put you in the middle of a somewhat credible environment, governed more by general rules rather than case-by-case scripts.
Having quests with multiple solution is just a byproduct of that design, incidentally.
The "simulated systems" are the heart of an immersive sim: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immersive_sim

First things first, you are NOT making the clever point you think you are making by pointing that many games overlap on several definitions rather than being boxed strictly into one.
Second, only one of them is an immersive sim, incidentally.


Nah, it isn't. If anything it cemented over time. Twenty years ago you had people trying to summarize the concept with three fucking paragraphs of convoluted explanations.
And "word IMMERSION" (lolwut?) by itself has NOT the same meaning as saying something is an immersive sim. No idea from where did you even get the idea for that one.

Sure Jan. Let's stop here before anyone hurts your ego.

 

[the Guynecologist]

.

 

[Sentenza]

See my point now?

What? What would the point be? That occasionally some clueless people make stupid assumptions because they have an incredibly narrow understanding of what a "sim" can be?
There's a reason if all these "simulators" come with "specifiers" associated. Because the word by itself defines little if not contextualized.

Do you think that Train Simulator, Goat Simulator, any flight or military sim out there or all the games generally labeled as "light sim" (because they have just SOME simulative elements without going full hardcore with it) resemble each other in any meaningful way, by any chance?
Many describe Mount & Blade and Battle Brothers as a "mercenary simulators" and yet the games couldn't be more different from each other.

In the end "To me simulator means just X" is as WORTHLESS as an objection. Having a narrow understanding of a topic doesn't change how language works.

It's as when you have morons saying things like "Well, every game can be *immersive* if you believe it is" (which is an argument I actually heard in the past, maybe even on this forum one of the dozens previous time this same discussion came up).
Except the "immersive" part of immersive sims doesn't refer to some vague fuzzy feeling inside when you are really emotionally engaged with your God of War cutscenes. It's an explicit pointer to a design approach: "in this game the environment needs to be a simulated place with consistent rules that you are placed/immersed in with the least possible amount of abstraction layers".