George Oscar Bluth II
Banned
I feel like they could easily sidestep the servant aspect by just adapting Wong from Doctor Strange: Season One.
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Doctor Stranges Erasure Of Tibet Is A Political Statement
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LUFTRAUSER
Banned
I don't see what the problem here is, honestly. They aren't in the business to spread our politics, they are in the business of selling movie tickets. And the Chinese market is huge. If anything not excising Tibet from the movie despite the substantial financial risk would be a political statement.
Switch Back 9
a lot of my threads involve me fucking up somehow. Perhaps I'm a moron?
It's not a popular opinion on here, judging by a lot of the posts, but I agree with you.
Yeah it's shitty, and kind of scary, but they're a gigantic business that—like every business— puts money first. Why this is shocking or outrageous to some people actually surprises me. It would be a HUGE financial hit for Marvel/Disney if they did otherwise. It's not super ethical but what gigantic corporation, anywhere, ever, is?
They could probably do the same for the Ancient One as well... probably... maybe... nah, just a lot easier to whitewash the role.
Unspeakable Evil
Member
Man, should've just casted George Takei.wtf at that post trying to say Takei is wrong. Looks like he's entirely on-point to me
King Tubby
Member
They are changing the details of an established story to suit the politics of an oppressive regime for their own financial interest. Does that count as a "political statement"? I don't know. What I do know is that you could extend this exact same line of argument to make equivalent changes in other stories for other markets that many people in this thread would find abhorrent and justifiiably so.
Discotheque
Banned
Nolan da gawd. Pretty terrible move by Marvel but they're not the only ones that would do this at this point in time.
I'm currently not politically informed enough about the issue to join the discussion in a qualified capacity, but I wanted to make this post for clarity's sake and for those who aren't familiar with the comics.
However, in Strange Tales #111 (1951), 4 issues before, the Ancient One was said to reside specifically in Tibet:
So... if you want to be old school about it, then yeah, he's originally supposed to be from Tibet.
Anyway, like most comic characters, Strange had his origin reimagined multiple times with tweaks and changes. I might be missing one or two, but here we go:
Strange Tales #148 (1966) - Not a retelling, but the first time Kamar-Taj is mentioned by name. It's said to be "a hidden land high in the Himalayas":
Doctor Strange #169 (1968) - Strange's origin is reimagined for the first time after Strange Tales #115. The region is once again referred to as the Himalayas:
Strange #1 (2004) - in this retelling of Strange's origin he specifically travels to Tibet:
Strange #1 also involves him visiting the region before his accident, to learn alternative medicine:
Dr. Strange: From the Marvel Vault (2011) - Short flashback, no specific region is mentioned:
Doctor Strange Season One (2012) - Another retelling, places the temple in the Himalayas.
The page posted above was the first time Strange's origin was told, in Strange Tales #115 (1951). The Ancient One's temple was said to be in India.The ancient one was in India, not Tibet, but hey who cares about details when we can be outraged about something.
However, in Strange Tales #111 (1951), 4 issues before, the Ancient One was said to reside specifically in Tibet:
So... if you want to be old school about it, then yeah, he's originally supposed to be from Tibet.
Anyway, like most comic characters, Strange had his origin reimagined multiple times with tweaks and changes. I might be missing one or two, but here we go:
Strange Tales #148 (1966) - Not a retelling, but the first time Kamar-Taj is mentioned by name. It's said to be "a hidden land high in the Himalayas":
Doctor Strange #169 (1968) - Strange's origin is reimagined for the first time after Strange Tales #115. The region is once again referred to as the Himalayas:
Strange #1 (2004) - in this retelling of Strange's origin he specifically travels to Tibet:
Strange #1 also involves him visiting the region before his accident, to learn alternative medicine:
Dr. Strange: From the Marvel Vault (2011) - Short flashback, no specific region is mentioned:
Doctor Strange Season One (2012) - Another retelling, places the temple in the Himalayas.
Having a Asian character recast as white is problematic for sure.
However, it might have saved this movie from extremely overdone trope of "White man learning from Asian serious skills and being a hero". It's not about any culture, as the ancient one is just the latest in a of Sorcerer Supremes. His being Asian would actually be a distraction. Less Remo Williams, more actually about Doctor Strange.
I don't buy the covering their asses for China either, I think they just didn't want to have a sterotypical old asian man and went with a woman with name recognition and now they're having to deal with backlash. I think the final film will benefit, regardless of the negative reaction.
However, it might have saved this movie from extremely overdone trope of "White man learning from Asian serious skills and being a hero". It's not about any culture, as the ancient one is just the latest in a of Sorcerer Supremes. His being Asian would actually be a distraction. Less Remo Williams, more actually about Doctor Strange.
I don't buy the covering their asses for China either, I think they just didn't want to have a sterotypical old asian man and went with a woman with name recognition and now they're having to deal with backlash. I think the final film will benefit, regardless of the negative reaction.
I would have been okay with it if the actor or actress was a minority person. Why specifically a white person? And you don't think that the Ancient One being white isn't a distraction? Just curious as to your thoughts on this since you think that an Asian actor would be a distraction.
Choppasmith
Member
Absolutely agreed! People, including George Takei, are so quick to label this as yet ANOTHER case of Hollywood Whitewashing (which is absolutely something to abhor, don't get me wrong) and that Marvel are greedy and racist bastards. But, to me, it seems they're doing a fresh take (avoiding the old Asian wise man/mentor cliche and stereotype) which is absolutely consistent to all the other films. Not saying this isn't partly done for the benefit of the Chinese box office, I just don't think it's as black and white (no pun intended) as so many make it sound.
This would be absolutely true if Hollywood did not have a history of whitewashing roles. It's not a fresh take to change a minority role to a white role. This has been done since the beginning of Hollywood. Is John Wayne playing Genghis Khan a fresh take? Is the myriad of white people playing minority roles a fresh take? How exactly is this a fresh take when it's been done ad nauseam?
Choppasmith
Member
Wow! Way to misread my post there. What you're talking about is Yellow Face which is even worse. How is that even remotely comparable? I specifically pointed out that that whitewashing was something to abhor and avoid.
What I'm saying is Marvel is in a unique situation.
"Oho! He's a Marvel fan, of course, he'd say Marvel's SPECIAL."
No really, think about it. They're their own studio. They can portray THEIR characters however THEY like. It's not the usual case of adaptations where they sign away the rights to the characters to Hollywood where there's already a whitewashing problem and just hope for the best. And it's certainly not like REAL CHARACTERS IN HISTORY (seriously, what's wrong with you?)
According to Feige, they saw the Ancient One as somewhat of a cliche and stereotype and wanted to do something fresh and different. Specifically citing the change of Jarvis into an AI that would become The Vision. They've already changed ethnicity, race, and gender of other characters in comics AND other media. They could've made an adaptation turning Strange into some high tech Sentai warrior with the Ancient One as since kind of alien computer if they thought it could work. I'm saying they could do that, it's their character. This isn't the usual case of Hollywood Whitewashing that everyone is on board for. I think they just really underestimated the role of the Ancient One and were careless into thinking changing that role wouldn't be considered whitewashing.
Basically, I think their intentions were good and had the right idea, but so many people just see it as another "victory" for Hollywood Whitewashing and I thinks they really underestimated the response.
People, this is how you don't shoot yourself in the foot.Wouldn't be the first time.
2008, back when no one gave a shit about China. That probably wouldn't happen today with a $150M+ film.
This is completely irrelevant (as always) to the point he was trying to make.
He was booking a flight, Nepal-Tibet. Sorry, should have posted that with the previous panel for context.
Yes, John Wayne was yellow face, but how is whitewashing a role any better? It isn't. THAT'S the point. So what if you pointed out that whitewashing is something to abhor and avoid? You easily dismiss the concerns of those who think this is whitewashing and justify it by calling it a fresh take. How is whitewashing a role a fresh take? You haven't explained that. Why couldn't they have used another minority actor for the role? Why not an Indian actor or actress? Hispanic? Why does it have to be white?
So because they can portray their character any way they like it justifies whitewashing a role? That's fine. They can do whatever the heck they want with their characters just as people are allowed to criticize them for their choice. The reason for the outrage is that this affects REAL PEOPLE in real life. Less Asians get acting jobs, less representation distorts societal perceptions, more stereotypes are accepted in society, etc. So seriously, what is wrong with YOU?
This is the person who has movies with mostly white people. Marvel has released approximately 17 movies and the majority of the actors and actresses are white. How is this not a case of the usual Hollywood whitewashing? Please explain that cause I have not seen a great move towards diversity that Marvel attempts to make. Also, so just because they change one instance of their character makes it fine to whitewash a role? Okay, I can play that game too. Remember Thor 2? They had an Asian actor, Tabanobu Asano, playing Hogun in the movie, and for some reason, they gave him the Poochie treatment with him having to return to his home planet (and probably died along the way) and never reappeared in the movie. How is that for a laugh?
No, let's be honest here. They went with Tilda because they wanted her. They did not think through the ramifications and came up with BS excuses for their selection. However, whether those intentions were good or not, this IS a victory for Hollywood whitewashing. I don't see how you can say otherwise. I'm not sure what your race is, but if this does not affect you, then you do not understand how frustrating this is. You can say that whitewashing is abhorrent and wrong all you want, but just trying to justify Marvel's BS just shows your acceptance of this practice.
Spacewolf's point (that it was Chinese pandering) was mistaken, as was already pointed out. TDK didn't even get a cinematic release in China.
I assumed that you saying that it was a way to not shoot yourself in the foot was in reference to what Nolan did being the right way to do things. If you are talking about something else that was not clear, and we aren't talking about the same thing.
Battersea Power Station
Member
Does China not allow any depictions of Tibet? I assume the main Dr. Strange plots don't discuss the sovereignty of the region. Why would a mere depiction of Tibet be offensive?
I always wonder about Tibet and China. Is it really any different then Israel and Palestine? Palestine is trying to get international recognition the same way that Tibet was trying to before 1951. Tibet and China spent the next decade negotiating before invasions happened. Then China implemented a Han settlement plan.
It's so hypocritical to be pro-Israel and anti-China on these issues. Both conquered (or incase of Israel still in process of conquering) via similar tactics. Both had some kind of ancestral claim on the lands.
If we want to recognize Tibet, then we have to recognize Palestine as well.
EDIT - I wasn't sure if the topic is about the political issue or just about Marvel making adjustments. If off topic, please disregard.
It's so hypocritical to be pro-Israel and anti-China on these issues. Both conquered (or incase of Israel still in process of conquering) via similar tactics. Both had some kind of ancestral claim on the lands.
If we want to recognize Tibet, then we have to recognize Palestine as well.
EDIT - I wasn't sure if the topic is about the political issue or just about Marvel making adjustments. If off topic, please disregard.
Dongs Macabre
aka Daedalos42
Or maybe these aren't the only two possible choices.
Not the official stance of most western governments.
Wow. Pretty informative post, thanks for this
Trojita
Rapid Response Threadmaker
Holy shit, that zoom in on Bowie's face. That's the look of a man that knows he is listening to a bunch of bullshit. What Goodman was saying at the end didn't make any sense.
Bowie is the best.
The Hermit
Member
This stands out to me:
If they're getting the better end of the deal out of releasing movies in their country, why should anyone be bending over to make them happy? They release the movie they get a bunch of cash, they don't, they don't. Simple as.
You know what else isn't to be sniffed at? The $180mil that China got to keep for themselves.
If they're getting the better end of the deal out of releasing movies in their country, why should anyone be bending over to make them happy? They release the movie they get a bunch of cash, they don't, they don't. Simple as.
dreamcastmaster
Banned
Hardly suprising, China loves Pandas.
Choppasmith
Member
I don't have any problem with that. Like I said, it's their character. So changing a character's ethnicity/race is fine as long as it's not white? Gotcha. What a backwards double standard you have. I mean if you want to say that's one less role that could've gone to an Asian. Hey that's fine, but I care first about the actor themselves. Skin color (including white mind you) doesn't factor in for me at all. Sorry if that bothers you.
Hey you're the one who made the stupid comparison, don't take it out on me.
It's funny you bring that up. I visited my mom in New Zealand, and she was hyping up and telling me I should see 47 Ronin. She's quite the film savant. She told me it was totally misunderstood by critics. So I saw it, and yeah, she was right. I remarked to her how it's a shame with the whitewashing in Hollywood we can't get more films like this. She agreed. So, relax, I completely agree with that.
I'm sorry this upsets you this much, I really am, but you're really tilting at windmills here.
btw, yes I know Asano was in 47 Ronin too
Honestly if you're willing to make such over analyzing and negative presumptions like that. It's probably a good thing they made "Mandarin" a mixed/ambiguous race, because with what you say above you sound exactly like the kind of person Marvel was trying to avoid offending by changing Mandarin from the caricature villain he was originally.
I agree, believe it or not. I'm sorry I'm so apathetic to your cause and not rushing to your side to protest. But I'm optimistic and upbeat by nature. Yeah, I'm also white. I'm not going to see everything as a sleight like you do (come on, that complaint about Thor 2 is WAY over the top and makes you seem like a paranoid conspiracy theorist). But like I said, I don't think it's as black and white as people see it. I think you like to believe the suits are all kicking back going "Asians? In our movies? HAHAHA! NO" That's all I'm really "defending here"
CadetMahoney
Member
Curiously, how do they treat current western films with homosexuals and so on. I take it they only greenlight Disney/Marvel superhero films (and other "non-offending" films) to be shown?
Because studios want that money and because China is the new big market.
How many mainstream movies have openly gay characters that you can think of?
Dongs Macabre
aka Daedalos42
I don't have any problem with that. Like I said, it's their character. So changing a character's ethnicity/race is fine as long as it's not white? Gotcha. What a backwards double standard you have. I mean if you want to say that's one less role that could've gone to an Asian. Hey that's fine, but I care first about the actor themselves. Skin color (including white mind you) doesn't factor in for me at all. Sorry if that bothers you.
Hey you're the one who made the stupid comparison, don't take it out on me.
It's funny you bring that up. I visited my mom in New Zealand, and she was hyping up and telling me I should see 47 Ronin. She's quite the film savant. She told me it was totally misunderstood by critics. So I saw it, and yeah, she was right. I remarked to her how it's a shame with the whitewashing in Hollywood we can't get more films like this. She agreed. So, relax, I completely agree with that.
I'm sorry this upsets you this much, I really am, but you're really tilting at windmills here.
btw, yes I know Asano was in 47 Ronin too
Honestly if you're willing to make such over analyzing and negative presumptions like that. It's probably a good thing they made "Mandarin" a mixed/ambiguous race, because with what you say above you sound exactly like the kind of person Marvel was trying to avoid offending by changing Mandarin from the caricature villain he was originally.
I agree, believe it or not. I'm sorry I'm so apathetic to your cause and not rushing to your side to protest. But I'm optimistic and upbeat by nature. Yeah, I'm also white. I'm not going to see everything as a sleight like you do (come on, that complaint about Thor 2 is WAY over the top and makes you seem like a paranoid conspiracy theorist). But like I said, I don't think it's as black and white as people see it. I think you like to believe the suits are all kicking back going "Asians? In our movies? HAHAHA! NO" That's all I'm really "defending here"
Damn, it's okay everyone, some of this person's favourite movies have Asians. The best actor should get the role, seriously. Whitewashing exists, but this totally isn't the bad kind because this poster thinks otherwise. We should all aspire to be this calm and rational.
DryEyeRelief
Member
Wait so it's okay if it's a woman but not a man? That's a double standard!
Your umbrage with ppl getting offended is anything but apathetic, nor the jolly good image you tried to portray yourself
Dark Ninja
Member
Damn I miss Spider-Man swinging through the city with a HUGE American flag behind him. Spider-Man with the Captain America shield now makes more sense to me.
I already gave out this link in the thread. Perhaps you should read it and learn a bit more before commenting about skin color:
http://timemachineyeah.tumblr.com/post/58648290519/this-is-a-jar-full-of-major-characters
Plus 1 for the victim card. Poor you. You're the one who started with the what's wrong with you nonsense? Like I said, whitewashing has real world consequences. Just cause you are "color blind" does not make it okay.
This sounds exactly like those people who make racist remarks and come back with, "Oh, it's okay, so and so is my best friend cause he/she is [insert color], so I can totally say that". Can you be even more pretentious?
I'm sorry this upsets you this much, I really am, but you're really tilting at windmills here.
btw, yes I know Asano was in 47 Ronin too
Sorry it does not upset you as much as me. That is what happens when privilege affords you that luxury.
There you go again with the excuses. Oh, it's people like me who are at fault here for Marvel whitewashing roles! Victim blaming at its finest. Why do you feel the need to blame people like me for asking for what is morally right rather than putting the blame squarely on Marvel? They're the ones who make these decisions. Hollywood and all those in power are the ones who make the decision to whitewash roles, but for some reason, people like me are the problem. L O L? Using your own question, are you serious???
Yeah, that's what I thought. That white privilege. Of course you won't see race as a problem in movies.
Also, it's not that they are asking "Asians? In our movies? HAHAHA! NO". It's that they don't even consider Asians at all. There is no consideration. None whatsoever. It's automatically let's go with so and so actor or actress and 99.9% of the time that person is white. You don't see a problem with that?
This is not about conspiracy theories. This is about reality and history has shown that Hollywood whitewashes roles. Where is the conspiracy in this? It's there. Read up on it.
Choppasmith
Member
Are you seriously accusing me of going the whole "My friends are Asian" route? Since when was being calm and rational a BAD thing?
I mean if you want to say I'm the dumb white guy who doesn't get it, don't beat around bush. I'm trying to be earnest here.
Edit: I guess that's already done . *sigh*
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