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[Sheroking]

Overall, I liked the season. I'd probably rank it in the middle of the pack amongst modern Doctor Who seasons and the best of the three Capaldi seasons. Capaldi himself is excellent and though his characterization hasn't always been as bullet-proof as the other Doctors, I thought he was terrific in the role. They are 4 for 4 in modern Doctors. Poor Colin Baker is hoping someone will take the heat off him as the only sub-standard Doctor.

Still, I would rank the 12th Doctor behind 10 and 11, and I won't be as sad for the regeneration episode as I have been in years past. Nothing against Capaldi, I just have really high opinions of the jobs Tennant and Smith did as The Doctor.

Looking forward to the Christmas special.

 

[Shambalakan]

I've only seen 2 episodes of this season and will watch others later, but want to know reactions about this season in Neogaf! Did people like it?

 

[DrForester]

I've only seen 2 episodes of this season and will watch others later, but want to know reactions about this season in Neogaf! Did people like it?

I think it was a very solid season. The teacher/pupil dynamic with Twelve and Bill was really, really good.

 

[tomtom94]

I've only seen 2 episodes of this season and will watch others later, but want to know reactions about this season in Neogaf! Did people like it?

On the whole the season is very solid. It is however very Moffaty.

 

[LegoArmo]

I loved Bill.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

It started strong, and the Bill/Doctor dynamic was really something.

There's a three-parter in the middle of the season that kinda goes off the rails and doesn't end well, and then the show sorta stumbles/staggers to the two-part finale, where it more-or-less nails the landing.

I think it's overall Capaldi's best season.

 

[Shambalakan]

Thank you guys! Good to hear this. I love Capaldi and liked Bill in the first episodes too. Should watch it soon.

 

[Vibranium]

I've only seen 2 episodes of this season and will watch others later, but want to know reactions about this season in Neogaf! Did people like it?

Very solid. Some fans in this thread/the internet may prefer the highs of Doctors 9, 10 or 11, but Twelve's final series has been really consistent, even with the stumbles in the three-parter. And there was nothing offensively bad. Bill and Twelve were a great pair, I need to read some of the comics and books to get more of them I think.

I really liked Mark Gatiss' episode and had a fun time with it, my true favorite of his since The Crimson Horror, though I am one of those people who enjoyed Robots of Sherwood.

 

[GodParticle]

I've only seen 2 episodes of this season and will watch others later, but want to know reactions about this season in Neogaf! Did people like it?

Thought it was pretty lousy overall *thisisneogaf.gif*

 

[Vibranium]

Thought it was pretty lousy overall *thisisneogaf.gif*

Well, on the bright side, you have Chibnall coming in next year with a clean slate. Though who knows at this point how people will receive his take on the show.

 

[Davide]

I've only seen 2 episodes of this season and will watch others later, but want to know reactions about this season in Neogaf! Did people like it?

It was consistent mediocrity but with at least a great first half for the finale. 12 and Moffat's weakest series by far. And I am a big fan of both.

 

[GodParticle]

Well, on the bright side, you have Chibnall coming in next year with a clean slate. Though who knows at this point how people will receive his take on the show.

Yeah, I'm equally excited and scared of what's to come. I'm overly critical because it's been my favorite show since I was a kid

 

[Vibranium]

Yeah, I'm equally excited and scared of what's to come. I'm overly critical because it's been my favorite show since I was a kid

Yeah, it's going to be an interesting time, I really do hope people who are losing interest are able to enjoy Series 11. Hopefully things work out for you!

I don't think I will ever stop watching this show, I've run through each Doctor and have enjoyed then all, maybe I'm just one of those overly positive fans lol.

 

[SlipperyFishes]

Fuck Moffat forever.

This matches Hurndall and Guilor as the lowest moments in the history of the TV series.

You can't replace Hartnell. And having a cheap imposter claiming to be "the original"? Yeah, cause that wasn't a terrible idea in 1983, right? It's still a fucking terrible idea now.

So this is how Moffat chooses to end his time on Doctor Who? By taking a dump on the original Doctor? Nice job.

The character is the original not the actor. Hats whatbwas meant and how most will perceive.

 

[hamchan]

So I kinda don't know where this refusal to regenerate is coming from with Twelve. He's being like Ten except Ten had that whole character development built up over his entire run. This one just feels outta nowhere.

 

[Vibranium]

So I kinda don't know where this refusal to regenerate is coming from with Twelve. He's being like Ten except Ten had that whole character development built up over his entire run. This one just feels outta nowhere.

Yeah, that wasn't really explained, I would hope that we get a reason for why he's holding it back. Maybe Twelve has some unfinished business with someone or something? All we got was the faces of his companions and friends, sort of like how the Fifth Doctor had them run through his mind.

 

[JoeM86]

So I kinda don't know where this refusal to regenerate is coming from with Twelve. He's being like Ten except Ten had that whole character development built up over his entire run. This one just feels outta nowhere.

I imagine it would stem from the fact it constantly changes who he is and he didn't like the struggles he dealt with at the start of this regeneration and doesn't want that to happen again

 

[Kuraudo]

So I kinda don't know where this refusal to regenerate is coming from with Twelve. He's being like Ten except Ten had that whole character development built up over his entire run. This one just feels outta nowhere.

Yeah, it was a bit of a mess. Would have been an easy fix too if he'd shown some sort of reaction to Missy's rejection (to explain him not wanting to regenerate at all) and if he'd dwelt on how different the two incarnations of the Master were (to explain him not wanting to be someone else). As it is it came out of nowhere.

 

[Davide]

So I kinda don't know where this refusal to regenerate is coming from with Twelve. He's being like Ten except Ten had that whole character development built up over his entire run. This one just feels outta nowhere.

Yeah this is what I was saying before. 10 also knew his next generation would be his last.

 

[CorrisD]

Yeah, it was a bit of a mess. Would have been an easy fix too if he'd shown some sort of reaction to Missy's rejection (to explain him not wanting to regenerate at all) and if he'd dwelt on how different the two incarnations of the Master were (to explain him not wanting to be someone else). As it is it came out of nowhere.

Yea they could have done something better, I would have preferred more reasoning behind it.

It would have been nice if they had worked in the Doctor and Master more, even something as simply about how he keeps changing and saving worlds but the bad guys keep coming and he was hoping that he could change Missy as evidence it was worth it. Of course she leaves him after years of trying to make her a better person, he takes it badly and gives up never knowing that she was coming back to stand with him.

A last conversation between them would have been nice, probably how I would end the Christmas special.

Yeah this is what I was saying before. 10 also knew his next generation would be his last.

Well that was retconned in, the War Doctor hadn't been created at that point and we don't know if/when they decided that him using his regeneration powers on his hand used a regeneration either at that point.

 

[Napoleonthechimp]

Yeah, it was a bit of a mess. Would have been an easy fix too if he'd shown some sort of reaction to Missy's rejection (to explain him not wanting to regenerate at all) and if he'd dwelt on how different the two incarnations of the Master were (to explain him not wanting to be someone else). As it is it came out of nowhere.

He's tired of changing? But I also like the idea that the last memory of 10 he experienced turned him into a whiny child.

Spoiler

I'm not a fan of 10.

 

[Kurdel]

Some nice moments, overall a dissapointment.

The ugly ass filter was rough on the eyes.

 

[normanski]

My take on why he doesn't want change may be something to do with the fact that the Doctor's natural life was supposed to end with Matt Smith. He didn't ask for a new cycle, it was Clara who asked and seemed perfectly happy to die as Capaldi on the battlefield (though arguably he's used up two more of those new generations to stay as him, one when he got shot and another one at the end of last night).

This could also explain why he's constantly been in a state of flux throughout Capaldi's run; he's gone from being stoic and callous to rocking grandpa and everything in between, and his outfit constantly changes week by week, which considering how intergral the wardrobe is to the identity of the current doctor suggests one that just doesn't know whom he's supposed to be (this could be down to problems behind the scenes with the falling ratings). You could almost say it's being like watching the Doc go through a mid-life crisis.

 

[Mariolee]

Actually thinking back on it, did Rory get a "Doctor" in during that whole montage? If not, then I'm salty af.

 

[normanski]

Actually thinking back on it, did Rory get a "Doctor" in during that whole montage? If not, then I'm salty af.

Nope. There was Amy but no Rory.

 

[paradox121]

I thought it was wonderful. Teared up during the Doctor's speech about kindness and Bill saying goodbye to him in the TARDIS. I kinda would have been alright with the final shot of the Moffat era being the 12th Doctor seemingly dead in the TARDIS which slowly comes to a stop.

For an episode that basically had endings for four separate characters it did remarkably well. Nardole gets to fulfil his role as caretaker. The Master/Missy kills him/herself because what else was ever going to happen. And Bill gets to go off into the universe and be happy. The idea that anyone could watch these episodes, after Bill has essentially been tortured for 10 years, had her body completely replaced, and (seemingly) watched her best friend die and think "How dare Moffat give her a happy ending!" is beyond me. Bill has been a breath of fresh air and I thought her ending was fantastic.

Capaldi steals the episode though. I normally tune out during 'action stuff', but his last stand against the Cybermen, himself and everyone watching knowing how this is going to end was fantastically realised. I imagine it'll be explored a lot more deeply at Christmas, but I think he's fighting against regeneration because he's frustrated at having to start again. He's personally become a much more emotive incarnation, he came within a whisker of making Missy good, and he just about managed to save the children on the spaceship. I think in a weird out-of-universe way he recognises that regenerating means starting from scratch on some level. This isn't the 10th Doctor refuses to regenerate because he thinks he's pretty. This is the Doctor refusing to regenerate because he no longer sees the point.

 

[Goldrush]

Wish we could have taken an episode from the Monks and gave it to this. I felt that the Master and Missy were underutilized despite having the perfect ending. The scenes that are in the episode are enough to complete Missy's character arc, but don't really contain much of what I was hoping for from a 2 Masters story. Apart from the beginning, we didn't really see the two toying with the Doctor and each other. Once they reached the solar farm, Master and Missy became a bit somber and isolated.

 

[Dryk]

I imagine it would stem from the fact it constantly changes who he is and he didn't like the struggles he dealt with at the start of this regeneration and doesn't want that to happen again

That's what I took from his dialogue. Ten wanted to hang onto who is is, Twelve doesn't want to have to keep being someone else.

But at the same time his last few lives have lasted over 1000 years each and Nine and Ten lasted less than a decade combined. If the Doctor was going to get sick of having to start over all the time this isn't the right time to do it.

 

[mclem]

It's worth remembering that the 1st Doctor's "rejuvenation" at Snowcap Base never did have an official in-story explanation. Perhaps we'll finally get one.

I wonder if maybe the BBC will show The Tenth Planet in the run-up to Christmas. It's probably peaked in terms of DVD sales, at least.


Edit: Thinking about it, there's a comment I made ages ago:

On a similar note, I'm surprised that Doctor Who has never really done an attempt at a Trials and Tribble-ations sort of episode. Certainly the Impossible Girl resolution touched on that a bit, but the universe has to be ripe to go all-in on that.

(And I've made similar comments at different times)

Could this be something resembling that?

 

[Sheroking]

Well that was retconned in, the War Doctor hadn't been created at that point and we don't know if/when they decided that him using his regeneration powers on his hand used a regeneration either at that point.

I'm not 100% on this, but I want to say it was confirmed that he burned a regeneration on that VERY early. Like, maybe in the press for Journey's End at the time.

 

[Hot Coldman]

I need a moment to talk about how much of a massive prick John Simm's Master is. He plays off this late 12 so well - he was made for 10 to oppose him and defeat him in battle, but honestly his cruelty and determination matchs far more effectively against 12's raw emotion and intense morality. If he'd met the Doctor in S8 it probably wouldn't work (hence Missy and her eccentricity, to match that 12's lack of patience). Now, though, it just makes him a properly heartless bastard.

And of course his fury at his future reconciliation is just perfect.

 

[firehawk12]

So as someone who has only watched this version of Doctor Who, do all the Companions end up being space travellers at the end of their arcs? lol

 

[Dr Zhivago]

I'm surprised how divisive this episode has been. I've not been the biggest fan of the Moffat era, but I thought this was a great finale.

Anyway, on to the fanwank. No-one else noticed that the Voords from the Keys of Marinus were confirmed as cybermen?

 

[lastplayed]

Spoiler

So my friend who I watched it with (who's a huge classic fan) was talking about 12's refusal to regenerate might tie into The Tenth Planet where the 1st Doctor was going through a similar thing and that they might help each other through the process.

I've not seen The Tenth Planet myself, apparently we're going to watch it before the Christmas special.

 

[Sir_Crocodile]

So as someone who has only watched this version of Doctor Who, do all the Companions end up being space travellers at the end of their arcs? lol

Moff likes to have his cake and eat it too, in terms of companions "dying", but then continuing on in some fashion.

Doesn't really happen in classic who (except for the ones who were space travellers initially anyway), although the writing is often ungainly with characters being written off due to disputes or new producers arriving. RTD tended to find equally messy ways to moff to offload companions in his era. Basically nothing new, but moff always wants emotional rawness of a death without an actual death, and it doesn't work when you keep repeating it.

 

[ClivePwned]

10th Planet is a 51 year old, low budget kids show made in a multi cam environment with each episode recorded in about 2-3 hours in one night, with sound effects, music, film inserts and any superimposed FX played in live. A maximum of 5 recording breaks were allowed per episode in the 60s. If someone fucked up just before a scheduled recording break and they had time for a retake, they'd have to redo every scene in that section. When the cyberman speak, the VO guy is off to one side is performing the lines live. Oh and its still in the period where the BBC's VFX department wouldn't work on the show so the Set Designer was responsible for any special effects.

Primitive is not the word.
Hartnell is also not in it that much as he was sick, it's carried on the backs of Ben and Polly. That and the last episode is really only broadcastable from the animated reconstruction for the DVD.

There's a reason every cyberman design after 10th planet is a lot more streamlined. They are goofy as fuck in 10th planet

That said, I loves it.

 

[mrklaw]

I enjoyed it.

I especially enjoyed Capaldi fighting the regeneration in the TARDIS. A lot of nice throwback moments there.

As for the Simm returning, that was a nice throwback and closes the circle on the Master becoming Missy and how the Master and Missy ultimately met their end. The Master had to regenerate into Missy and because Missy had turned over a new leaf, she had to die because The Master would never side with the Doctor. He's rather die than let it happen.

I think it also made the point that a lot of Doctor Who episodes have tried to make - no matter the enemy, no matter how much you fight them, they always come back from another part of the time and space and the Doctor is always buying time because the threat never ends - The Cybermen can be held back, you can run through dilated time from them, but they're always still there.

No reason for the 'don’t bother trying to regenerate' though. Just killing missy normally should be enough. A regeneration would reset memories etc with a good chance the master will go back to being evil. So as an evil coward you’d think he'd not 'fully' kill her.

 

[Sir_Crocodile]

10th Planet is a 51 year old, low budget kids show made in a multi cam environment with each episode recorded in about 2-3 hours in one night, with sound effects, music, film inserts and any superimposed FX played in live. A maximum of 5 recording breaks were allowed per episode in the 60s. If someone fucked up just before a scheduled recording break and they had time for a retake, they'd have to redo every scene in that section. When the cyberman speak, the VO guy is off to one side is performing the lines live. Oh and its still in the period where the BBC's VFX department wouldn't work on the show so the Set Designer was responsible for any special effects.

Primitive is not the word.
Hartnell is also not in it that much as he was sick, it's carried on the backs of Ben and Polly. That and the last episode is really only broadcastable from the animated reconstruction for the DVD.

There's a reason every cyberman design after 10th planet is a lot more streamlined. They are goofy as fuck in 10th planet

That said, I loves it.

10th planet had the best cybermen voices. I love them. Tomb ones look better (and I loved the ancient egyptian influences, but the voices weren't as good without the singsong quality.

Was great seeing them back in nuwho, and I hope we get them again.

No reason for the 'don’t bother trying to regenerate' though. Just killing missy normally should be enough. A regeneration would reset memories etc with a good chance the master will go back to being evil. So as an evil coward you’d think he'd not 'fully' kill her.

Maybe he plans to change his timeline by forcing himself not to regenerate into her.

 

[mrklaw]

I don't quite know how to feel about that conclusion from tonight's episode. So basically

Spoiler

The Master is completely dead since he/she is destined to kill the future incarnation. Unless the Master has new knowledge since meeting Missy but who knows.

Also, if the Doctor is fighting regeneration through this episode and the previous (or possibly all the back in Lie of the Land), then who knows how many regenerations he has left.

Nardole and the people rescued will eventually get found by the Cybermen and will either turn into Cybermen or all die. Nardole is not human so he may escape somehow.

Bill becoming a water creature is a load of crap. The show never explained who was searching for The Pilot in the first place (the Monks? Time Lords? Cybermen? Daleks?) Not to mention if the Doctor got turned into a water creature as well. It did show memories of people calling to the Doctor before he woke up (could the Christmas special be in his head?)

To me, the logical conclusion would be a giant reboot of the show, all the way back to the First Doctor but modernized. I guess have it be similar to J.J. Abrams' Star Trek reboot. Acknowledge the previous history but have something completely different.

Master can easily Bill&Ted his way out of that situation like they did on the ship. Or just turn up any time in the future that they want the master (with a new face because missy will have regenerated). We saw her die but then we also saw the doctor die and he’s ok. They just cut away from missy before we see her wake up.

Nardole and the kids is a loose end that they surely have to tie up in the Christmas special? Can’t leave the cybermen there. Probably swoop by, pick them up and then push the ship into the black hole.

Bill basically has a free pass - pilot outright said she can be fully turned back into a human if that’s what she wants - just atoms at the end of the day. So that’s a free pass for either the Christmas special or chibnall to do what they want.

 

[Sir_Crocodile]

Pilot being randomly more advanced then the Time Lords is pretty funny in a "guess they couldn't be bothered to explain why" way.

Should have made her an Eternals old spaceship from before transcendence or something

 

[Bluth54]

As for the Simm returning, that was a nice throwback and closes the circle on the Master becoming Missy and how the Master and Missy ultimately met their end. The Master had to regenerate into Missy and because Missy had turned over a new leaf, she had to die because The Master would never side with the Doctor. He's rather die than let it happen.

Oh I doubt this is the end of the Master.

 

[AHA-Lambda]

So what is the state of the Doctor's current regeneration limit right now actually? How many has he got left?

I've only seen 2 episodes of this season and will watch others later, but want to know reactions about this season in Neogaf! Did people like it?

Even with some misgivings on some of the episodes it's the best season they've done in ages.

 

[Sir_Crocodile]

So what is the state of the Doctor's current regeneration limit right now actually? How many has he got left?

There's no real reason he should have a limit anymore, timelords were pretty desperate when they gave him new ones, and the whole limit thing was entirely a designed limit by them to begin with.

 

[Broken Joystick]

Oh I doubt this is the end of the Master.

It's time for a rest for the character but it's never the end. The Master will be around for as long as the Doctor is.

Also, couldn't Bill and the Pilot go save Nardole and kids?

 

[BossDarkseid]

Oh I doubt this is the end of the Master.

Yeah. It'll be good to give the character a rest though, presuming Chinball doesn't bring it back next Season. The modern series has had the Master/Missy feature so much that the character needs a rest before the come back, if nothing else it'll let some of the more whiny fans get over the fact the next one won't be Michelle Gomez or John Simm.

Characters are only ever dead until the writer decides otherwise, after all

I don't envy whoever decides to bring The Master back though, whether it is Chinball or whoever comes after (if the show is even still going) because the character arguably had a natural end to their arc with The Doctor Falls...maybe it's time for something new(ish) like bringing back The Rani or going a bit crazy and have Omega back and a semi-recurring supervillain.

Edit: Until they say otherwise, my headcanon will be that at some point Bill and the Pilot save Nardole and his family rather than leave them to a doomed paradise. A line in passing that says they were saved would help but ultimately he said his goodbyes to Bill and the Doctor so having another seen where he is saved by one of them almost defeats the purpose (it could happen off-screen ofc). I'm excited for the Christmas Special because if the rumors are true and it is set during World War 1, the Two Doctors bringing about that temporary ceasefire on Christmas Day could act as 12s reason for deciding to regenerate and not just let himself die.

 

[KarneeKarnay]

There were so many things that didn't make sense and were just confusing in the way this episode was edited. Like narrative jumps are happening and causing things that don't make sense and all this seems to boil down to the fact that they tried to cram too much in. In the end it doesn't explain a lot of it. I'm someone who enjoys the twists and turns, but this was over the top in bizarre.

 

[APZonerunner]

Yeah. It'll be good to give the character a rest though, presuming Chinball doesn't bring it back next Season. The modern series has had the Master/Missy feature so much that the character needs a rest before the come back, if nothing else it'll let some of the more whiny fans get over the fact the next one won't be Michelle Gomez or John Simm.

Characters are only ever dead until the writer decides otherwise, after all

I don't envy whoever decides to bring The Master back though, whether it is Chinball or whoever comes after (if the show is even still going) because the character arguably had a natural end to their arc with The Doctor Falls...maybe it's time for something new(ish) like bringing back The Rani or going a bit crazy and have Omega back and a semi-recurring supervillain.

Edit: Until they say otherwise, my headcanon will be that at some point Bill and the Pilot save Nardole and his family rather than leave them to a doomed paradise. A line in passing that says they were saved would help but ultimately he said his goodbyes to Bill and the Doctor so having another seen where he is saved by one of them almost defeats the purpose (it could happen off-screen ofc). I'm excited for the Christmas Special because if the rumors are true and it is set during World War 1, the Two Doctors bringing about that temporary ceasefire on Christmas Day could act as 12s reason for deciding to regenerate and not just let himself die.

They'll give it three years or so then do The Master again. I reckon we'll go back to a lot of Dalek stories as the go-to finale fodder for a few years, and I actually think we're due some good old Dalek invade the earth shenanigans, as we haven't really had one of those large scale things since Journey's End now.

As for The Master and natural ends, he had a pretty natural end in The End of Time; that could've been the end of him, really. Revenge on the time lords, a form of forgiveness for the Doctor, etc. You just have to start again, fresh, as they did in Series 8. You can join it up later if you want.

 

[Khoryos]

Pilot being randomly more advanced then the Time Lords is pretty funny in a "guess they couldn't be bothered to explain why" way.

Should have made her an Eternals old spaceship from before transcendence or something

Spoiler

She's Compassion.

I mean, not really, but it'd be nice right?

 

[EvilRedEye]

The special features on the DVD of The Tenth Planet has some footage of a young Chris Chibnall saying he'd like the show to have more crossover appeal for adults. Feels appropriate to have him giving his views on what he'd do with the show on the DVD for a story that is now sorta-kinda going to lead into his era!

 

[KuwabaraTheMan]

RE: Recasting the first Doctor.

Regardless of what people thought about it the first time, the genie is out of the bottle now. You're not treading on something that hasn't been treaded on before, and the fact that it's:

A) Being done by an actor like David Bradley, who is honestly better than Hartnell ever was.
B) Calling back on the biopic they did, which honored Hartnell more than it did Doctor Who itself.

Makes it okay in my book.

Whether or not Bradley is a better actor than Hartnell or not, he's not a better Doctor than him. Hartnell was peerless when it came to being the Doctor.

And "it was done before" is a crap excuse when everyone agrees that Hurndall was a massive mistake.

The character is the original not the actor. Hats whatbwas meant and how most will perceive.

There is no character! The incarnations of the Doctor are creations of the actor. The first Doctor is just "the Doctor as played by William Hartnell".