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[KuwabaraTheMan]

Eventually?

Yes.

The show began in 1963. It'll probably continue on. They will recast some of these characters in small roles eventually. It's probably better if you come to terms with that now rather than 5, 10 years down the line. It's like trying to fight reboots.

But it's literally never been needed before.

The genius of Doctor Who is that they can (and do!) replace the entire cast every few years, and continue on just fine. You just have the Doctor regenerate, and you write out the old companions and introduce new ones.

There is no need to ever recast. And it's gotten by just fine without it. When the show hit its highest ratings in decades and reached #1 for the first time ever near the end of the Tennant era, they hadn't done that by getting someone to pretend to be Tom Baker and recast a younger actor as the Brigadier, they did that with a brand new Doctor and new companions (along with Sladen returning in a small role).

The idea that we need someone to come along every few years and pretend to be William Hartnell is silly. The Doctor is always changing, so there's not any need to do recasts. Doctor Who is pretty much unique in that it can get by without ever recasting and still maintain the legacy of those previous seasons.

 

[Chezzymann]

First 2/3 was great and I was loving the hopelessness vibe but bill becoming a god puddle person thanks to that deus ex machima was really lame. There needs to be more consequences in this show so things can have more of an impact.

 

[CloudyTuba]

Huh, wasn't that Hurt's last line before regenerating too?

Yes. It's implied that both died simply of old age and/or frailty. However with the first Doctor here seemingly appearing around the time of The Tenth Planet, that 51 year old plot point may be elaborated on come Christmas.

 

[Effect]

Amazing episode. Really enjoyed that. Didn't expect to tear up as I did during it. Talk about surprises. I do hope the Christmas special addresses some questions I have though.

I have to say that Capaldi has been one of my favorite Doctors. Easily in my top three. It really sucks that he and Pearl Mackie only had one season together. Loved Bill and sucks to see her go but they left that door wide open.

 

[BrokenFiction]

I loved Bradley's First Doctor. Very happy to see him come back and do it again.

 

[MHWilliams]

But it's literally never been needed before.

The genius of Doctor Who is that they can (and do!) replace the entire cast every few years, and continue on just fine. You just have the Doctor regenerate, and you write out the old companions and introduce new ones.

There is no need to ever recast. And it's gotten by just fine without it. When the show hit its highest ratings in decades and reached #1 for the first time ever near the end of the Tennant era, they hadn't done that by getting someone to pretend to be Tom Baker and recast a younger actor as the Brigadier, they did that with a brand new Doctor and new companions (along with Sladen returning in a small role).

The idea that we need someone to come along every few years and pretend to be William Hartnell is silly. The Doctor is always changing, so there's not any need to do recasts. Doctor Who is pretty much unique in that it can get by without ever recasting and still maintain the legacy of those previous seasons.

What is this "need"? It's a TV show. Nothing is ever needed. I'm saying, "Yeah, it's probably going to happen."

They'll eventually do an episode where the Fifteenth Doctor meets a young Alistair Lethbridge-Stewart or the Seventeenth runs into an older Leela and K-9. It's just one of those things, like I know Sony will reboot Spider-Man again one day.

 

[matrixman92]

holy shit I cannot wait until christmas.

On a side note, when do they usually announce the next doctor?

 

[zeemumu]

That was a pretty good final and I can't wait until Christmas.

Spoiler

I started to get curious on whether or not they'd have the balls to actually spring the regeneration on us without announcing the new Doctor first.

I wonder if Bill/Water Lady and Clara/Ashildr will cross paths.

 

[Hot Coldman]

god I loved that so much

the Doctor explaining Bill's state to her was their greatest scene bar none

 

[maruchan]

But it's literally never been needed before.

The genius of Doctor Who is that they can (and do!) replace the entire cast every few years, and continue on just fine. You just have the Doctor regenerate, and you write out the old companions and introduce new ones.

There is no need to ever recast. And it's gotten by just fine without it. When the show hit its highest ratings in decades and reached #1 for the first time ever near the end of the Tennant era, they hadn't done that by getting someone to pretend to be Tom Baker and recast a younger actor as the Brigadier, they did that with a brand new Doctor and new companions (along with Sladen returning in a small role).

The idea that we need someone to come along every few years and pretend to be William Hartnell is silly. The Doctor is always changing, so there's not any need to do recasts. Doctor Who is pretty much unique in that it can get by without ever recasting and still maintain the legacy of those previous seasons.

You do know this is the will be the third time, they recast the first doctor. Hope we se Susan soon

 

[Savitar]

I wouldn't care less if they recast almost every companion who is too old or you know, dead to have them all show up in some epic crazy moment. Same with the Doctors. Recasting happens.

The episode was good, the start was a tad slow but the second half was well done. In so many ways it was all those quiet moments that added to when things began to happen, yeah the Cyberman flying up through the floors is kinda....."what" worthy. The battle itself was nice, not like the show has a budget for a huge battle but the Doctor making his stand was nice stuff.

The ending, I liked it! If the Christmas special is as some have been speculating about I look forward to it. This show always makes me wait months and I always do because it's worth it.

 

[Hot Coldman]

You do know this is the will be the third time, they recast the first doctor. Hope we se Susan soon

this argument never really works considering everyone hated Richard Hurndall's turn as 1, so lemme offer a better one:

it's the Christmas special which are always some corny shit, I'll let it slide

 

[draetenth]

Wow, I'm surprised everyone seems to be so positive. After last week's episode I found this very disappointing.

Reminded me very much of Matt Smith's last episode, in that both felt overwrought and bloated with not a lot actually going on.
And what was achieved in the end?

Spoiler

The cybermen got pushed back.

Big whoop.
And dear god Bill's exit from the show was utter shit, some of the most on your nose deus ex machina I've seen in some time.

The only thing I particularly liked about this episode was the 2 masters that was great.

This was my impression of the episode. Such a shame of an ending for what is likely my favorite Doctor and Companion...

 

[Hot Coldman]

so wait is the Master/Missy just... fucking dead now

the Master escapes, regenerates into her, ok ok... but then Missy was on the floor that the Doctor blew up! and she already got lasered beyond repair! that is SURELY RIP for that character

Moffat jokes about giving Chibnall some bullshit to sort out but that is genuinely a cruel hand-off

 

[Bobby Roberts]

I'm just not that precious about the First Doctor for me to get that pissed off about David Bradley doing his not-that-great Hartnell impersonation if it leads to a multi-doctor story that looks to be wrapping up the 50th Anniversary loose end on Gallifrey as well as giving 12 a good sendoff. (They'll probably swing by the ship and grab Nardole & the kids on the way to or back from Gallifrey, I'd imagine)

Now, the question is whether they're gonna go so far as to recreate Hartnell's regeneration (again)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ksrDyn-6ahg

(although please don't bring Reece Shearsmith into this because while Bradley doing Hartnell isn't the greatest, Shearsmith is fucking awful as Troughton)

 

[matrixman92]

You do know this is the will be the third time, they recast the first doctor. Hope we se Susan soon

It would be kinda cool if they went on an adventure to find Susan together.

I wonder if Ben and Polly will be in it

 

[KuwabaraTheMan]

You do know this is the will be the third time, they recast the first doctor. Hope we se Susan soon

Hurndall was awful in The Five Doctors. Guilor was awful in The Day of the Doctor. And Bradley was already awful at it tonight.

It's almost as if the "first Doctor" was the "Doctor as played by William Hartnell", and you can't actually capture that with some other actor coming in and doing an impression based off of probably a two minute clip they saw from An Unearthly Child. There is no point to having the first Doctor show up in an episode if you don't have William Hartnell.

so wait is the Master/Missy just... fucking dead now

the Master escapes, regenerates into her, ok ok... but then Missy was on the floor that the Doctor blew up! and she already got lasered beyond repair! that is SURELY RIP for that character

Moffat jokes about giving Chibnall some bullshit to sort out but that is genuinely a cruel hand-off

The Master burned to death in a very definitive state in Planet of Fire (which was even specifically written and intended as the final end of the Master), and they wound up just bringing him back the next season and when the Rani asked him how he had survived he just said "I'm invincible, the whole universe knows that". Hell, earlier than that they introduced the regeneration limit in The Deadly Assassin, specifically revealed that the Master was on his final regeneration, and then killed him. He always survives somehow.

 

[tuffy]

Now, the question is whether they're gonna go so far as to recreate Hartnell's regeneration (again)

Moffat threw together a little special to get the 8th to 9th regeneration on film just because he wanted all the regenerations accounted for, so doing the 1st to 2nd again in some form just to have it fits his character since it's the only one missing.

 

[funkystudent]

so wait is the Master/Missy just... fucking dead now

the Master escapes, regenerates into her, ok ok... but then Missy was on the floor that the Doctor blew up! and she already got lasered beyond repair! that is SURELY RIP for that character

Moffat jokes about giving Chibnall some bullshit to sort out but that is genuinely a cruel hand-off

The Master has legit died countless times in Who. Its the running gag.

The master just shows up again and when asked how they survived they just laugh it off going "of course i survived, Im the master".


The new guy has nothing to worry about once he sticks to that.

 

[Apdiddy]

I don't quite know how to feel about that conclusion from tonight's episode. So basically

Spoiler

The Master is completely dead since he/she is destined to kill the future incarnation. Unless the Master has new knowledge since meeting Missy but who knows.

Also, if the Doctor is fighting regeneration through this episode and the previous (or possibly all the back in Lie of the Land), then who knows how many regenerations he has left.

Nardole and the people rescued will eventually get found by the Cybermen and will either turn into Cybermen or all die. Nardole is not human so he may escape somehow.

Bill becoming a water creature is a load of crap. The show never explained who was searching for The Pilot in the first place (the Monks? Time Lords? Cybermen? Daleks?) Not to mention if the Doctor got turned into a water creature as well. It did show memories of people calling to the Doctor before he woke up (could the Christmas special be in his head?)

To me, the logical conclusion would be a giant reboot of the show, all the way back to the First Doctor but modernized. I guess have it be similar to J.J. Abrams' Star Trek reboot. Acknowledge the previous history but have something completely different.

 

[Hot Coldman]

I suppose the bigger issue then will be "ok why is the Master evil again"

 

[zeemumu]

To me, the logical conclusion would be a giant reboot of the show, all the way back to the First Doctor but modernized. I guess have it be similar to J.J. Abrams' Star Trek reboot. Acknowledge the previous history but have something completely different.

So you think they'll do something like

Spoiler

current doctor refusing to change and pouring all of his regeneration energy into the first doctor and make him reboot doctor?

 

[Apdiddy]

So you think they'll do something like

Spoiler

current doctor refusing to change and pouring all of his regeneration energy into the first doctor and make him reboot doctor?

They're going have to. Unless they have

Spoiler

current doctor finally accept his fate and regenerate. If they go that route you describe, I hope they get a younger guy to look like a younger William Hartnell but not act like him. Basically, anyone but David Bradley for the new showrunner. I mean, he was great in Adventures of Time and Space and he's in the Christmas special but a whole series with him?

 

[CloudyTuba]

I suppose the bigger issue then will be "ok why is the Master evil again"

Yeah, that's the way more interesting question than how he comes back to life. There's always a reason to come back to life.
Then again, regeneration always scrambles the eggs a bit. Plus, fully dying before whatever brings her back might leave her memory not quite reliable. Shows always find ways to regress characters when they need to. It's especially easy in scifi.

As long as the show continues, the Master will eventually be back. Probably not for a while, though.

They're going have to. Unless they have

Spoiler

current doctor finally accept his fate and regenerate. If they go that route you describe, I hope they get a younger guy to look like a younger William Hartnell but not act like him. Basically, anyone but David Bradley for the new showrunner. I mean, he was great in Adventures of Time and Space and he's in the Christmas special but a whole series with him?

I think you're overcomplicating.

 

[kitsunelaine]

They're telegraphing a female doctor so hard that I will be really disappointed if we don't get one.

Hype.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

OLIVIA COLMAN COMIN' THRU

 

[hamchan]

Damn, a really good finale.

 

[zeemumu]

OLIVIA COLMAN COMIN' THRU

Nah, the Doctor's gonna regenerate into Amy Pond and change the name of the show to "Raggedy Who"

 

[Davide]

But it's literally never been needed before.

Yes it has. The First Doctor has been recast before.

 

[GodParticle]

Pretty good until the random as hell bill plot resolution. Should have known they'd go with the happily ever after ending for her. Loved caves of androzani throwback with the regeneration

 

[hamchan]

I do like how tragic it is that the Doctor actually managed to change Missy and that he'll (probably) never know he succeeded and that it'll probably be undone by a new regeneration of the Master.

So many good character moments with the Masters and the Doctor this ep.

 

[funkystudent]

I suppose the bigger issue then will be "ok why is the Master evil again"

The new Master will basically be this meme

But I will guess we probably wont see the Master again for a few seasons. they could skip the next doctor completely and by the time he returns this story will feel like real old stuff

 

[MartyStu]

I wonder if Missy is ultimately the last master, but there are multiple regenerations between the Simms master and her.

That would make me happy.

 

[GodParticle]

Simm felt more like the master in this episode both in acting(less over the top) and look. Still felt it was a waste to make gomez the master when she was a perfect casting for the rani

 

[diunxx]

so wait is the Master/Missy just... fucking dead now

the Master escapes, regenerates into her, ok ok... but then Missy was on the floor that the Doctor blew up! and she already got lasered beyond repair! that is SURELY RIP for that character

Moffat jokes about giving Chibnall some bullshit to sort out but that is genuinely a cruel hand-off

I don't believe they actually confirmed that simm turns into missy, they could probably fit some regenerations in between.

 

[Pluto]

I wonder if Missy is ultimately the last master, but there are multiple regenerations between the Simms master and her.

That would make me happy.

Unlikely, the reason Missy didn't remember her regeneration into herself was because Simm Master couldn't retain his memories of meeting her. If there had been other regenerations between the two Missy would remember being them.

so wait is the Master/Missy just... fucking dead now

the Master escapes, regenerates into her, ok ok... but then Missy was on the floor that the Doctor blew up! and she already got lasered beyond repair! that is SURELY RIP for that character.

Moffat already had Missy being killed on screen by the Brig cyberman and before that RTD had the master die in 10's arms and he was cremated. SURELY RIP is a tradition at this point, Missy will be back. Moffat already included a way to do it, 12 had some regeneration energy go into the ground when he supressed it, that could easily get to Missy, revive her and let er stumble into the elevator before everything blows up.

 

[MotionBlue]

I actually expected a twist where Missy

Spoiler

was actually an incarnation of the Doctor, and not Master.

Good episode, Deus Ex Ship-Fuel was kinda silly. They dug a whole too deep I guess.

Also, I thought Blackholes slowed time the closer to the event horizon, not speed.

 

[MartyStu]

Unlikely, the reason Missy didn't remember her regeneration into herself was because Simm Master couldn't retain his memories of meeting her. If there had been other regenerations between the two Missy would remember being them.

I do not think she is being truthful about not remembering.

 

[Shy Fingers]

And dear god Bill's exit from the show was utter shit, some of the most on your nose deus ex machina I've seen in some time.

Good episode, Deus Ex Ship-Fuel was kinda silly..

But it literally links to Bill's first episode?

It's either a liberal use of Deus ex machina or I don't fully understand the literary term

 

[Bobby Roberts]

It's more like Chekhov's Tear

 

[Pluto]

I do not think she is being truthful about not remembering.

Maybe. But they only need this as an explanation for a new master is Missy is actually dead and the last incarnation which I don't believe she is.

 

[MotionBlue]

But it literally links to Bill's first episode?

It's either a liberal use of Deus ex machina or I don't fully understand the literary term

How is it not. A character that was shown in one episode, and never again mentioned or seen suddenly appears and fixes all the problems. Why would the ship-fuel suddenly show up only in the last 2 episodes? Why wouldn't it havef saved Bill before cyberization? How can it fly a TARDIS? If it could fly a TARDIS, surely it could have helped them much earlier in the last 2 episodes and prevented lots of deaths.

Had they hinted about her importance outside of 2 episodes, it would have been better.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

How is it not. A character that was shown in one episode, and never again mentioned or seen suddenly appears and fixes all the problems.

Again, that's more like Chekhov's Tear than anything else.They showed you the pilot. They explained what it could do, they set up its return at the end of its episode, and then spent this episode reminding you that "the gun" if you will was still loaded and aimed at Bill.

 

[WhatWeLeftBehind]

But it literally links to Bill's first episode?

It's either a liberal use of Deus ex machina or I don't fully understand the literary term

But don't you understand? Anything that is even remotely fantasy like does not belong on a SCIENCE fiction show.

Who cares if it was set-up! We've had too much fantasy pretending to be sci-fi already. We shouldn't let Who get away with it.

Spoiler

Yes im being sarcastic

 

[Sheroking]

RE: Recasting the first Doctor.

Regardless of what people thought about it the first time, the genie is out of the bottle now. You're not treading on something that hasn't been treaded on before, and the fact that it's:

A) Being done by an actor like David Bradley, who is honestly better than Hartnell ever was.
B) Calling back on the biopic they did, which honored Hartnell more than it did Doctor Who itself.

Makes it okay in my book.

 

[Mutanthands]

I am so going to miss Peter Capaldi. He was wonderful this season, and especially this episode. I wish he had a couple more seasons of good writing to really put even more of a mark on the character. At this point, as someone who grew up with Tom Baker's Doctor, he's my favorite modern Doctor.

I liked the episode. I think there was more than enough closure Nardole and the Master(s).

I was happy enough with Bill's ultimate fate. I like that she can wander and see the universe. I don't mind that there a bit of a thematic trend with Moffat and companion exits, since at least he set it up with first episode of the season this time.

Not enough Mondasian Cybermen skulking about in the dark terrorizing the colonists. The just had to go full invasion with the modern style Cybermen mixed in at the end. It would have been nice to continue with the creepy body horror mood of the first episode of the two parter.

 

[Santiako]

How can it be a deus ex machina when someone here predicted it? It's a chekov's gun.

... wouldn't it of saved ... surely it could of helped them ... it would of been better.

Dude. HAVE HAVE HAVE

 

[DrForester]

I liked that episode.
I assume Bill is coming back at some point. Otherwise her exit seems way to similar to Clara's. Right down to traveling with a new magical girlfriend. Missy cemented herself as the best Master by killing the worst Master. Good for her.


I'm totally fine with Bradley bring in the Christmas Special. I liked him a lot in the Docu-drama.



I am going to miss Capaldi a lot. He surpassed Eccleston as my favorite of the new-Who era, and I think he's had the most consistently good run as far as episodes go. He and Mackie had the best chemistry of Doctor/Companion in new-Who as well I think.

 

[Mutanthands]

How is it not. A character that was shown in one episode, and never again mentioned or seen suddenly appears and fixes all the problems. Why would the ship-fuel suddenly show up only in the last 2 episodes? Why wouldn't it havef saved Bill before cyberization? How can it fly a TARDIS? If it could fly a TARDIS, surely it could have helped them much earlier in the last 2 episodes and prevented lots of deaths.

Had they hinted about her importance outside of 2 episodes, it would have been better.

Why would you need to be reminded of the Pilot again and again beyond the two episodes? No need to bang it over our heads and devote minutes to it that can be used for the episode at hand.

As for why the Pilot didn't step in sooner, I think that Bill had to want to let go of her life before she would come for her. Her sense of self and will to survive was so strong it let her resist the Cybermen indoctrination to the point she didn't even realize that she was more machine than person.

With the Doctor "dead," she finally came to terms with it and let go.

 

[Vibranium]

Predicted The Pilot, and I didn't have a problem with Bill's exit. I'm a sucker for under siege Doctor Who stories too, the feeling of desperation was fantastic. And The Master/Missy ending was totally in line with the character, Moffat nailed that.

As for the First Doctor recast, people do realize that Richard Hurndall already did it over 30 years ago, right? It's ok to disagree with them ever having another actor appear in the show out of respect to Bill Hartnell, but Moffat is technically in the clear since JNT and Terrence Dicks beat him to the punch. David Bradley was excellent in An Adventure in Space and Time, and I trust he will bring his talent to the show.