Poodlestrike
Banned
The fans forgot Danny, the writers forgot Danny, Clara forgot Danny...
Danny Pink was done so wrong.
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Doctor Who Series 9 |OT| Let Zygons Be Zygons
- Thread starter Quick
- Start date
The fans forgot Danny, the writers forgot Danny, Clara forgot Danny...
Danny Pink was done so wrong.
She mentioned Danny moments before her death. "If Danny Pink can do it..."
CloudyTuba
Member
You're completely right of course!
I've not been satisfied with Clara in a long time and for reasons like this I'm glad we get to move on now. Hopefully to greener pastures. She's perfectly likable and Jenna is great but the writing frequently made her frustrating, it was a source of undesirable tension in the show for me.
But she got a hard hitting and emotional exit which is the best we can hope for this late in the game, so I'm glad she got that much in the end. Better late than not at all.
The two-episodes arcs did her characterization no favor. The Master completely played her the first two. Then we have Ashildr being the focus for 5-6. The next arc, Evil Clara took center stage.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
She did, didn't she?
"If Danny can do it, so can I" preceded her whole "be brave" thing.
sobaka770
Banned
She did. In a bland, totally checklist kind of way. She kind of had to. I can see the writers all being "Well she's gotta mention Danny, that was our last season big romance arc for her" although it just doesn't register on the emotional level since we don't see her missing him and they are both so uninteresting like Anakin and Padme. She actually says "Danny Pink", with his last name too, now that's awkward. Can you imagine Amy saying Rory Williams in such a matter-of-fact way before her death in a similar scene?
And "being more reckless" arc is totally not there. Sure we see that in THIS episode where she hangs from the Tardis, which is not subtle since all the characters spell out for the audience that she's acting recklessly, but the rest of the season she acted more or less the same as previously. What was so out-of-normal reckless with her in Zygon Invasion (okay she was out for the most of it), Ashildir or the Found Footage episodes anyway? Let me remind you she jumped into Doctors timeline without knowing it would help and that she would survive 2 seasons ago.
Yeah, it's a criticism of this series not her characterisation in general. None of the stories were designed for it.
Last series was great for it, whole episodes woven around her and the Doctor's characterisation in fact. Instead of using her staying as an opportunity to continue building on that with the obvious way her story would now go, it was like they thought the job had been done and forgot all about it until the very episode it was needed.
As I said before, even just one episode revolving around these themes putting Clara front and centre, like the very episode it was constantly drawing on, would have done the job of selling it all before this episode needed to tell you it was ALL VERY IMPORTANT AND NOW IT'S TOO LATE.
But there were no such themes running through this series this time, they just didn't bother.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
Remember when we found out she was super-bossy because the Doctor told her she was super-bossy? And then she was "super-bossy" for the next four or five episodes, and then we kinda all forgot that was supposed to be a thing.
Sorta like how she flirted with mountain ranges and had posters of roman senators on her wall or whatever. We were told she had super-interesting taste in dudes, not actually shown that was the case.
Zeouterlimits
Member
Eh, there were hints of it.
As you said, plenty of it in Season 8.
The first underwater episode, for the first 5 minutes she is gleeful about the danger.
The Doctor even gives out to her about it, says she has "gone native".
I feel like there have been other hints of it too.
As you said, plenty of it in Season 8.
The first underwater episode, for the first 5 minutes she is gleeful about the danger.
The Doctor even gives out to her about it, says she has "gone native".
I feel like there have been other hints of it too.
Let's not forget her characterisation, and the focus on her relationship with the Doctor, gave a literal abortion of an episode at least some purpose and meaning in series 8.
This time we got sandmen and an episode telling us it was all complete bollocks right before the most important one of the series. There was nothing else there.
Like Forest being unconnected to the themes of Flatline which preceded it, this series was unconnected to the themes of series 8 which preceded it. And with Danny out of the picture this series now needed to pick up Flatline to give Clara the same purpose and meaning as before, but it only did so when it actually picked up Rigsy as well.
If you aren't aiming high you can't expect the viewer to carry you there instead, especially when you're asking them to remember not just the characters but also the themes of an episode from a year ago.
This series stepped back from what it was doing before, and the stories and characterisation suffered for it.
Until it had to do it.
This time we got sandmen and an episode telling us it was all complete bollocks right before the most important one of the series. There was nothing else there.
Like Forest being unconnected to the themes of Flatline which preceded it, this series was unconnected to the themes of series 8 which preceded it. And with Danny out of the picture this series now needed to pick up Flatline to give Clara the same purpose and meaning as before, but it only did so when it actually picked up Rigsy as well.
If you aren't aiming high you can't expect the viewer to carry you there instead, especially when you're asking them to remember not just the characters but also the themes of an episode from a year ago.
This series stepped back from what it was doing before, and the stories and characterisation suffered for it.
Until it had to do it.
APZonerunner
Member
I think this has always, generally, been a weakness with Moffat's character writing, which then trickles down to those below him. It's where his sitcom background most shows; there's a lot of telling rather than showing, and then when we do get big character beats they're very often built in as part of a (admittedly funny/clever) gag rather than anything meaty. I think Amy had similar problems during Series 5, to be honest, but she got better the more she had Rory as a foil, and Danny just didn't work in the same way and wasn't in the show often enough to make it work.
She was the perfect companion for the 50th because she was just a bit bland, companion zero, basically. She didn't get in the way of all the stuff that needed to go on there, whereas somebody like Rose, Donna or Amy would have.
sobaka770
Banned
To be honest, in Season 5 we already had a big Amy+Rory arc from the get-go. By the end we had a big character progression arc for both. I agree that before he gets into the picture, the first part of the season is less engaging, but even there the character motivation for Amy was clearly outlined in the first two-parter as she was waiting for years, running away from the wedding and responsibility etc etc.
Clara's problem probably comes from the initial gimmick of "mystery girl" where she had to play two cocky self-assured characters, who were both killed which was fine in a self-contained story, but for 3 seasons the writers just didn't seem to add anything to that.
acheron_xl
Member
Glad the purple coat goes forward. Hope he rocks that for a while.
Exterminieren
Banned
Greg Davies and Matt Lucas are in the Christmas Special, as we expected. Davies is playing King Hydroflax, and Matt Lucas is playing Nardole.
https://twitter.com/bbcdoctorwho/status/668942381576814593
https://twitter.com/bbcdoctorwho/status/668942381576814593
Future Foundation
Member
I'm loving that coat.
Exterminieren
Banned
In other casting news, Donald Sumpter (possibly best known as Maester Luwin in Game of Thrones) is in Hell Bent, playing
along with
The President,
Ken Bones reprising his role as The General from The Day of the Doctor.
Future Foundation
Member
I assume that's for Hell Bent?
infiniteloop
Member
CloudyTuba
Member
It seems like ever since she stopped being a gimmick (victorian, dalek, impossible) they no longer knew quite what to do with her. She just sort of became a grey mush that would be whatever they felt like making her that day. Clara is this, Clara is that, and she will be... for about 5 minutes.
The strongest most interesting Claras were the copies that introduced her, not just due to gimmicks but because the writers knew exactly what they wanted them to be. There was confidence in the writing. Personal favorite was flirty Dalek Clara in the sexy red dress.
Whoever they have next, it's totally fine if she's normal and not gimmicky. In fact I think most people would prefer it that way. But they should nail down a solid personality and charge ahead with it unapologetically.
Me too. I look at that and I think "Damn. This is his look. This is the one I want to remember looking back on him in a few years." I sure do hope they keep it. It just looks too good on him. It's perfect.
I felt the same way when they tidied up the eleventh Doctor's hair and made his coat a little more fitted (s6, basically). I thought "Damn okay, you finally ironed out the kinks. This is it."
10 and 11 both took some time to settle into their "final" looks so I'm hoping this is it for Peter.
Exterminieren
Banned
I wouldn't be surprised if Donald Sumpter was playing a regenerated Rassilon. Judging by all the nonsense with kidnapping the Doctor, I'm guessing they aren't quite as reformed as he was protesting back in The Time of the Doctor.
APZonerunner
Member
On the photos: Weirdly glad to see River back, but boy I despise her taste in dresses pretty consistently.
Oh, I'd agree generally, Amy is a much better character, but the kernel of the problems that have plagued Clara were there, they just didn't manifest fully UNTIL Clara, I feel.
I just think if you look at the two show runner eras we've had of the new show, it's abundantly clear that one comes from a soap and drama background; in soaps, everything is in that dialogue because there's literally nothing else. They can maybe afford a big event, like a big car crash or something, once a year. RTD's Who was built on that foundation, really - that's why his era is so grounded in living rooms and council flats, or how you get scenes like the extended morality drama of the dinner in Boom Town, or, indeed, the whole episode of something like Midnight. The flip side is that soaps and dramas of that kind are also often shot for efficiency rather than artistry, and I think that's something visible in that era too, that's the negative side.
Moffat comes from primarily a sitcom background, but pretty quickly whenever he got the opportunity to do so he went for more cinematic stuff (Jekyll, or his work in stuff like Murder Most Horrid). He builds characters in a more sketch-like fashion, and that sometimes works and sometimes doesn't. River, for instance, I think is a triumph of it working, even if she arguably outstayed her welcome. Strax is another weird little triumph of that- probably because he's a funny character, perfect fodder for his sitcom chops. Meanwhile, though, Jenny and Vastra still feel pretty blank to me beyond their sexuality, the sketch hasn't worked as well for them. In the same sense, I think it worked better for Amy and gradually gave her a lot of depth (though I still think Martha, Rose & Donna all reached the point Amy eventually got to much faster as a result of the stylistic difference), much of it via how she treated Rory, but Clara just hasn't managed to find the depth in his style as a character at all. The flip side of course is that Moffat's sensibilities have greatly improved the show in other ways.
Oh, I'd agree generally, Amy is a much better character, but the kernel of the problems that have plagued Clara were there, they just didn't manifest fully UNTIL Clara, I feel.
I just think if you look at the two show runner eras we've had of the new show, it's abundantly clear that one comes from a soap and drama background; in soaps, everything is in that dialogue because there's literally nothing else. They can maybe afford a big event, like a big car crash or something, once a year. RTD's Who was built on that foundation, really - that's why his era is so grounded in living rooms and council flats, or how you get scenes like the extended morality drama of the dinner in Boom Town, or, indeed, the whole episode of something like Midnight. The flip side is that soaps and dramas of that kind are also often shot for efficiency rather than artistry, and I think that's something visible in that era too, that's the negative side.
Moffat comes from primarily a sitcom background, but pretty quickly whenever he got the opportunity to do so he went for more cinematic stuff (Jekyll, or his work in stuff like Murder Most Horrid). He builds characters in a more sketch-like fashion, and that sometimes works and sometimes doesn't. River, for instance, I think is a triumph of it working, even if she arguably outstayed her welcome. Strax is another weird little triumph of that- probably because he's a funny character, perfect fodder for his sitcom chops. Meanwhile, though, Jenny and Vastra still feel pretty blank to me beyond their sexuality, the sketch hasn't worked as well for them. In the same sense, I think it worked better for Amy and gradually gave her a lot of depth (though I still think Martha, Rose & Donna all reached the point Amy eventually got to much faster as a result of the stylistic difference), much of it via how she treated Rory, but Clara just hasn't managed to find the depth in his style as a character at all. The flip side of course is that Moffat's sensibilities have greatly improved the show in other ways.
So the goalposts have moved from "they didn't mention Danny at all" to "they didn't mention Danny hard enough." Okay.
Also, hasn't it been decades for Clara since Danny died? I know her being old woman ended up being a dream in Last Christmas, but did she still experience those 60ish years?
Exterminieren
Banned
The emotional wounds were clearly fresh enough for Clara to dream about spending a perfect Christmas with him in Last Christmas.
BrokenFiction
Member
"You should see the other fucking guy..."
Bobby Roberts
Banned
The hell is that?
infiniteloop
Member
it's from the Heaven Sent promo pics:
http://blogtorwho.blogspot.com/2015/11/doctor-who-series-9-heaven-sent-image.html
http://blogtorwho.blogspot.com/2015/11/doctor-who-series-9-heaven-sent-image.html
Bobby Roberts
Banned
Damn!
Exterminieren
Banned
I can't tell if it is, or if it's just his regular threads soaked with blood.
Either way, I'm very intrigued.
This is too much of an overview for me. The way I'd sum Clara up is this:
Series 7B - A gimmick to explain the gimmick
Series 8 - A coming of age story to establish her character
Series 9 - A lazy sequel that traded on her popularity
Clara went into limbo, so did her relationship with the Doctor, and all the stories lost the need for having that woven into them. She could do and be anything again. So the build-up was lost, and all these themes and elements of her character just had to suddenly come flooding back at once.
Face The Raven was by far the best episode of the series, but we were losing the Clara that should have been rather than the one we actually had.
Still worked, and it's a testament to the writer how well, but it's also tragic in a completely different way if you think about it.
Correct.
infiniteloop
Member
make the most of them! long wait after christmas
Possibly a gap year, no?
infiniteloop
Member
yup
They are filming a full series next year, but it seems like they are going to be filming several months later then they have the last 2 years, so next year we'll likely just get the Christmas episode and then series 10 in early 2017.
Spectromixer
Member
At least we will get the spin-off series in some of the time off from the main show.
ClivePwned
Member
Imma start with Unearthly Child and do the lot for the next two years.
What's unsaid is that without more infor to go, it seems like "we're filming a whole series next year, but you'll get it over two years. This is our biggest earner and we don't know how to manage it because we are cats and not good with television."
Finished two Eighth Doctor Big Finish stories today. Loved Storm Warning, but Sword of Orion was a pretty typical Cyberman story. The Android and mutiny bits were possibly interesting but underwhelming.
Now I've got to figure out how to justify dropping $150 or so to buy everything else 8 in the main range...
Now I've got to figure out how to justify dropping $150 or so to buy everything else 8 in the main range...
Bobby Roberts
Banned
I think the four seasons of Eighth Doctor Adventures (the Lucie Miller years, basically) are some of the best Who ever done. Period. If you can talk yourself into dropping about $50 more bucks than you're already trying to convince yourself to spend - go that route.
Whelp, I told myself I was done with Dr. Who after last season but I got through all my shows and I was bored yesterday so I marathoned Series 9 (just to see Clara's exit) and finished catching up today. Just finished Face The Raven. This marathon made me realize how much I hate Doctor Who now. This is a show I used to love so so much, and now I hate it. There was never a moment in these 10 episodes when I felt like a death mattered or like the stakes were against the Doctor or like anything mattered. It just felt like they were going through the motions and it was boring.
I can't believe how underutilized Clara was. For years this was a problem (that feels really weird to say) and yet they still didn't fix her. The only thing that's changed about her is the fact that she isn't fawning over The Doctor like a love-sick schoolgirl anymore because of Danny and the fact that he's an old man. I pray the next companion is better. Speaking of which, is the black kid (Rigsby??) the next companion?
And then hearing that we're getting an off year next year? lol another reason I stopped I guess.
I can't believe how underutilized Clara was. For years this was a problem (that feels really weird to say) and yet they still didn't fix her. The only thing that's changed about her is the fact that she isn't fawning over The Doctor like a love-sick schoolgirl anymore because of Danny and the fact that he's an old man. I pray the next companion is better. Speaking of which, is the black kid (Rigsby??) the next companion?
And then hearing that we're getting an off year next year? lol another reason I stopped I guess.
ClivePwned
Member
Leonard Rossiter for next companion, forever in pursuit of his Miss Jones!
He didn't get where he is by referencing Rising Damp. Oops, wrong show.