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Doctor Who Series 9 |OT| Let Zygons Be Zygons

Hcoregamer00

The 'H' stands for hentai.
Seeing the Moffat and Capaldi interviews on the Doctor Who facebook, it is 100% sure that
Clara is dead.
If she appears at some point, it will probably be a flashback or a version of her before it happened, probably with the Doctor doing one last tearful goodbye before he jumps out of her timeline forever.
 

Ophelion

Member
So, I wonder if it's meaningful at all this quantum shade thing supposedly has Clara's soul. Lots of talk this season about taking and using people's "souls". Is it just metephor, like stealing all the bio-electricity from a person's body at once to kill them or does an alien entity actually legit have essence of Clara trapped within it or bottled up somewhere or something?
 

Blader

Member
Could Clara have given the contract to the Doctor?
Not that she would have wanted to, but it seems like an option?

I mean, we couldn't be sure he'd regenerate, but he probably would?

I thought about that, but Me says that the raven takes the soul. The Doctor's body regenerates after death, but it's still the same soul underneath it all.
 
So ... Arya told everyone's memories would be erased when they left ... so did the Doctor forgot she died ?

that is an interesting question. I wonder if it ties into the weird foreshadowing-ish bits about the Doctor's long month where it seemed he knew Clara was going to die before we saw that death.

But it also seemed as if the retcon would be administered before The Doctor & Rigsy were to be turned back over to the real world, not that it automatically just happens. With the Doctor teleporting away to wherever, no Retcon would be administered to him.

Rigsy, on the other hand, might not remember that Clara ever died, or that he ever even went into the alley. But we're likely never going to visit Rigsy again as a character anyway, so it likely doesn't matter.

It's kind of representative of the way Clara's stories have been handled in the larger sense: there's a lot of interesting ideas that just get dropped after one or two kicks of the tire, yunno? There's been a fair share of character and narrative cul-de-sacs leaking off her character, and they never really go anywhere, and they hardly get referred to again afterwards, and you look back and she's got a history that essentially looks like the diagram on top of a manual transmission.
 

zeemumu

Member
Could Clara have given the contract to the Doctor?
Not that she would have wanted to, but it seems like an option?

I mean, we couldn't be sure he'd regenerate, but he probably would?

He does it all the bloody time, especially when it comes to his companions.
See: The End of Time, The Angels in Manhattan + more

I don't think Clara could pass it off to anyone else. And if she was able to give it to the Doctor it most likely would have killed him. It's a time-based entity. Those seem to be pretty good at facing timelords.

It was an emotional moment but I did see it coming a mile away. I wish we hadn't seen the conversation with her taking the quantum lock and found out at the same time as the doctor.
 

liquidtmd

Banned
I don't know if anyone's mentioned it through the thread and I may be off here, but did Claras end pose of standing in the street with arms raised give anyone else complete Tennant regeneration pose vibes, almost to the point it seemed to be specifically going for that actor wise?
 

Hcoregamer00

The 'H' stands for hentai.
It was an emotional moment but I did see it coming a mile away.

They kinda spoiled it in the preview from last episode, plus the Doctor Who facebook before the episode posted "It's the end of the road for Clara. Let her be brave... Don't miss the dramatic #FaceTheRaven‬ tonight."
 

Santiako

Member
What a fantastic episode. Capaldi was just killing it all episode, I just hope they don't pussy out and keep Clara alive somehow, her parting was long overdue.
 

Razmos

Member
Rigsy, on the other hand, might not remember that Clara ever died, or that he ever even went into the alley. But we're likely never going to visit Rigsy again as a character anyway, so it likely doesn't matter.
He definitely remembers she died, or else why would he be painting a memorial to her on the TARDIS?

It's either a narrative mistake, or it's to be assumed that Ashildr let Rigsy go without wiping his memories, likely because she trusts him not to reveal their secret and wouldn't want to erase the memories of Clara dying from him.

I'd imagine that Ashildr of all people would appreciate that people would want to remember the dead, since she's forgotten so many people already.
 

TheJoRu

Member
So ... Arya told everyone's memories would be erased when they left ... so did the Doctor forgot she died ?

I heard it as they give people a pill so they would forget, and The Doctor never got one.

Or put in another way: she's dead, he knows, the line about forgetting was put there to make sense of Rigsy forgetting and to sell the street as this secret place people would occasionally stumble into but wouldn't remember, it was never supposed to be a big deal, I wouldn't bother.
 
It was an emotional moment but I did see it coming a mile away. I wish we hadn't seen the conversation with her taking the quantum lock and found out at the same time as the doctor.
Ooh, I might have liked something like that. They might need to foreshadow it a bit in the episode, or throughout the season (her endangering herself in such an extreme way).

I thankfully did not know it was going to be last night's episode, happy to see that it's not a last episode thing.
 

Fuu

Formerly Alaluef (not Aladuf)
Nah, fairly sure they talked about Retcon, which is a pill. I assume they would give it to whoever wandered in there by mistake. http://tardis.wikia.com/wiki/Retcon
Yeah and Rigsy wasn't given a new Retcon either, or he wouldn't have done the Clara tribute on the TARDIS at the end.

xHA1zJb.jpg


edit: beaten by Razmos
 

Mr-Joker

Banned
Ashildr is starting to bug me more and more, she behaves like a child pretending to be a grown up.

Anyway the episode was good and Clara was brave facing up to her death, even though we kinda saw her die two times before. ¬_¬;
 
"Your reign of terror will end with the sight of the first crying child and you know it!"

"No, I don't!"

"...I do."

*Clara's theme hits*

Welp, hand me the tissues.
 

Dryk

Member
Thematically, the Clara gets more and more reckless > Clara dies because of her recklessness, and not to save the day kind of bothers me. It's too obvious, too flat. I'd be surprised to see them leave it at that. Watching her die was not a poignant experience. I kept waiting for the other shoe to drop. But reading this thread I kind of feel I'm in the minority.
It fits with the recurring "Clara tries to be the Doctor and almost gets it right" theme seen in Deep Breath, Death in Heaven & The Girl Who Died. I do wish that element of her character showed up more often though because it was interesting.
 

Ceej

Member
I'd been thinking all season how we've seen so many different personalities (and hairstyles!) of this doctor since Deep Breath, and I had decided that my favorite version of this doctor was the one in Dark Water/Death in Heaven: He was in control, cool and determined. And he wasn't dressed like a space hobo. This episode's incarnation is the first one all season that felt like that, especially at the beginning in the TARDIS with Rigsy. Don't get me wrong: I love Capaldi, he is absolutely my favorite doctor and I've loved this season, but I am glad we're steering in a different direction in these next episodes and I can't wait for them to bring Sarah Dollard back!
 

Ophelion

Member
I think Clara dying was showing us something important. The Doctor cannot be alone, this is true, but he needs companions that aren't clones of him. Clara was throughout this series growing and more trying to emulate him, and it was her downfall.

We need another Donna like companion, honestly. Someone who calls him on his shit and doesn't encourage it.

Indeed. He's trouble enough without a bloody enabler.
 

Ozium

Member
I just want a companion that can act as an audience surrogate. is a normal man or woman, and isn't anything more than someone who shares adventures with the Doctor for whatever reason

like in the old Serials... this doesn't mean that companions can't argue with the Doctor, or call him out, or even assist him.. it just means that they don't have to be some big central part of the lore or some important plot device.

the plot device/larger than life companion is extremely played out in NuWho.. hell we should also have 2 companions at once for the duration of a series that can play off each other and the Doctor.

it's nice to want things, I guess...

I apologize in advance if my thoughts are vile and inhuman.
 

Bluth54

Member
I think I would enjoy having two companions again. I enjoyed it when Amy and Rory were both in the Tardis and I also enjoyed it when Captain Jack was a second companion.
 

devilhawk

Member
I just want a companion that can act as an audience surrogate. is a normal man or woman, and isn't anything more than someone who shares adventures with the Doctor for whatever reason

like in the old Serials... this doesn't mean that companions can't argue with the Doctor, or call him out, or even assist him.. it just means that they don't have to be some big central part of the lore or some important plot device.

the plot device/larger than life companion is extremely played out in NuWho.. hell we should also have 2 companions at once for the duration of a series that can play off each other and the Doctor.

it's nice to want things, I guess...

I apologize in advance if my thoughts are vile and inhuman.
I definitely can agree with this.

There was always just something wrong with Clara's character. Your post might be the best explanation for it.
 
i can't wait to see who the new companion is. i wouldn't mind if he had 2.

i didn't like clara at first but this season i started to like her more and more but i think now it's just the right time for her to go.

i want to see more of this angry doctor. capaldi just does such an amazing job. i like it when the doctor goes all dark/angry and becomes something that you fear. 9/10/11 had their moments. the family of blood episode with 10 is really memorable. 11 was interesting too because he was more of a young/happy person a lot of the time so when he got angry it was unsettling. with capaldi he just an old grumpy scottish guy and straight away that's someone you don't want to get on the wrong side of. i think he's been trying to be a good person but with what happened to clara i can see him just losing it. like he said "the doctor isn't here! just me" (maybe not exact words).
 
Shame to see Clara go in a way, as she finally became a character this season. OTOH, it felt like this HAD to happen, not only because she was getting a bit tiresome despite the previous, but her recklessness had been building since last season, it made sense.

As for new companions, how about someone who isn't from modern day? I'll take someone from the future, another planet, the past, whatever? We've had a string of modern day women for a while now. Change up the formula.
 

mclem

Member
The "the doctor isnt here right now. You are talking to me" line was cool as hell.

I wonder if it could be "The doctor isn't here right now. You are talking to Me" - as in herself. The point being he's trying to convince her to act on her guilt over the issue.

Which isn't terribly likely, but I can't help but think the Ashildr->Me thing needs to go somewhere.

Sarah Dollard, first episode of Doctor Who she's written. Solid outing.

Which in itself is intriguing; an episode with the companion popping their clogs, and the showrunner doesn't fiddle enough with the script to make it an "& Steven Moffat" credit?
 
I wonder if it could be "The doctor isn't here right now. You are talking to Me" - as in herself. The point being he's trying to convince her to act on her guilt over the issue.

Which isn't terribly likely, but I can't help but think the Ashildr->Me thing needs to go somewhere.

Well, he really says "You're stuck with me", so he's definitely letting his anger boil over there.
 

VegiHam

Member
As for new companions, how about someone who isn't from modern day? I'll take someone from the future, another planet, the past, whatever? We've had a string of modern day women for a while now. Change up the formula.
Yeah, this please. I live in 21st century Britain; so I don't need Doctor Who to even go near it. Get someone distinct from us on adventures to places unfamiliar to both us and them. How about a future Human who knows what Silurians are cus they have tons of silurian friends? Or even an ancient Roman who finds Victorian London
(it's inevitable, because they're cheap for the beeb to do)
futuristic and magical.
 

Fuu

Formerly Alaluef (not Aladuf)
They backpedalled on the plans for Clary Poppins (which is one of the reasons that led to Modern Clara starting out so undercooked), but yeah, I'd love a companion who's from another era or an alien.

Unfortunately I have a feeling they're even less inclined to consider that kind of thing now than they were before.
 
Yeah, this please. I live in 21st century Britain; so I don't need Doctor Who to even go near it. Get someone distinct from us on adventures to places unfamiliar to both us and them. How about a future Human who knows what Silurians are cus they have tons of silurian friends? Or even an ancient Roman who finds Victorian London
(it's inevitable, because they're cheap for the beeb to do)
futuristic and magical.

It's not just the companions themselves; it's the fact that their social lives, and family lives are such a big part of NuWho that we're conatantly returning to modern day to check on them. Honestly I suppose I wouldn't mind nearly as much if it was someone like Sarah Jane or Teagan who was with the doctor but didn't constantly have to return home.

They backpedalled on the plans for Clary Poppins (which is one of the reasons that led to Modern Clara starting out so undercooked), but yeah, I'd love a companion who's from another era or an alien.

What do you mean by this? I'm confused.

I hope Moffat tells us the outline of his Clara only 50th Anniversary episode someday.

That would be interesting. I am still so sad that Eccleston wouldn't sign on for the 50th. It would have been so much better with him as the War Doctor role, as great as Hurt was.

I'm ready for some dude companion. And someone not from present-day Earth would be nice.

Basically I want another Steven.

I'd be fine with another Jamie, hell a medieval lord or something could be cool too. Since they like casting Game of Thrones actors, grab Richard Madden.
 

Fuu

Formerly Alaluef (not Aladuf)
What do you mean by this? I'm confused.
The Governess Clara from The Snowmen was originally meant to be the companion, but Moffat decided against the idea of a period-piece companion at the last minute and went with a modern Clara instead.
What Blader said, plus the Victorian era would have worked as a kind of "hub" that they'd keep coming back at the end of episodes, with the kids from The Snowmen making more appearances. Neil Gaiman wrote Nightmare in Silver with that in mind, which is why Angie and Artie are awkwardly inserted in that episode. They had to come up with changes for present day Clara at the last minute and it seemingly stunted some of the developments they had planned initially.
 

Pilgrimzero

Member
Watched the episode, I'm sad they have basically ruined "Me" as a character. I don't see The Doctor ever wanting anything to do with her now.

Also Clara basically got herself killed, which is a stupid way to go. Even if she somehow lives the Doctor needs to drop her a companion because she will get herself killed again via a bad decision.
 

Chariot

Member
Also Clara basically got herself killed, which is a stupid way to go.
I think this is the whole point. She was so hard being the Doctor that she forgot that she wasn't. All the terrible situations and they always made it through, she basically became conscience of plot armor and thought she could do just whatever, it will turn out fine.
 

sobaka770

Banned
My reply comes quite late, but here's my summary for the thing I was waiting for for quite some time:

So this finally happened.

My personal opinion is that we just got rid of the worst companion in the way it should've happened which is also the worst way and that's ok.

It is the worst way to get rid of the companion, because the whole death scene was overlong with the setup, the wait, the goodbyes and that slow-mo mute raven scene. All of this to make the character we never cared about die. All of this overshadowed by a cliffhanger for a two-part episode. And I don't think I cared about Clara. Ever. Whatever her interactions with the Doctor were, ever since her gimmick "mystery girl" setup was done and she became a normal companion, we got the flattest, most unrelatable character on the show with a clear Mary Sue problem.

The first problem is that Clara had no personality. Even taking the basic personality test (Watch Plinkett's Phantom Menace review for an easy introduction), there's nothing to say about her. Is she sweet and curious as Rose? Is she funny like Donna? Is she quirky like Amy? Is she headstrong and willful as Martha? Am I seriously using Martha as a good example here? Damn, even that girl had something I could talk about!

Whether Colemans' performance had issues or whether writers' inability to structure the character manifested here, her personality ended up being flat and changed depending on whatever the story needed her to do. That's the worst kind of character possible. She's always funny, always too good, always barely emotional. It really doesn't help that the character has very little framing: her non-Doctor life is utterly boring and devoid of interesting characters, and the only big arc with Danny Pink is once again unrelatable and boring. Two flat characters, dating 101 scenarios, no in-depth relationship doesn't make for good TV.

So in the end Clara says she's become reckless after Pinks' death. What kind of bollocks is that? Wasn't she reckless ALL the time? It's just writers putting in words to trick us in believing there's an arc while there isn't one. It's like her actions when Danny died, her emotional swings, they are all in words and in the end her real character never changes, which leaves us with a statue instead of real human being. Her characters' words don't coincide with her actions and her changes are constantly retconned or reset.

Another consistent problem is that Clara doesn't react like a normal person would to things happening around her. This is crucial in a companion who is supposed to give us a relatable view on these stories in which the Doctor is alien and doesn't do things like a human would, with flaws and all. Every companion before had at least a basic arc of wonder-confusion-acceptance-transcendence, which is basically adapting to new worlds not unlike going to live in a new country only 100x times worse. With Clara she's in on day one, always feisty, never in awe, never in wonder. Clara having barely a non-scripted, not one-time, real character flaw or trait denied me relating with her and thus made all these stories seem distant with two superhumans dealing with alien stuff.

Last thing is that Claras' death in the end is really pointless and has no impact apart from the verbal one we saw in this episode. What happens if she dies really? Her interaction with the Doctor is emotionless, like a tacked-on contractual friendship. All their on-screen stories show little emotional connections, the writers have to start an episode by showing how much fun they have together on the adventure we don't get to see. To add to that she lives alone, barely any friends or normal people in her life. I'd say nobody on Earth will miss her in the end. Therefore there's really not much investment in her death.

The good thing that came out of this episode was the fact that we finally got unshackled from her. I don't hate Clara, but she was holding the Doctor in this emotionless procedural state for too long. It's time to bring some humanity and heart back to the show and a new proper companion is essential for doing so.

PS. And that's why Ashildir, Osgood or anyone else who's already "in" on the Doctor would make terrible companions. We need a relatable person not superhumans.
 
While I liked Clara, in retrospect she should have really died as the Impossible Girl. Once she jumped into the time stream to save the Doctor, her story should have ended. It seems they kept her around just because she was a fan favorite.

Her death just did not have the impact I hoped for but given her lingering arc, that is to be expected. But Capaldi just killed it in the episode! He is amazing, so good that i find myself having difficulty imagining other actors playing him. Weird, but a testament to his acting.
 

Htown

STOP SHITTING ON MY MOTHER'S HEADSTONE
To be fair it is entirely Clara's fault for what happened

No, it's Ashildr's.

Threaten someone's life to trap the Doctor with the assumption that A) he'll find out in time and B)figure it out in time so you can C) undo the death sentence in time is some fucked up planning.

What would she have done if it failed? Find another of the Doctor's acquaintances, and rinse and repeat until the Doctor actually saved someone?
 
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