It's Clara's since she lead the first Doctor to the right Tardis.
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Doctor Who Series 9 |OT| Let Zygons Be Zygons
- Thread starter Quick
- Start date
It's Missy's because she gave Clara the Tardis phone number
Napoleonthechimp
Member
It is Omega and Rassilon's fault for creating the Time Lord's in the first place.
How far back do you want to go? People are responsible for their own choices with Clara, Ashildr, and the Doctor all being responsible in their own way.
Ashildr made the conscious decision to put Rigsy in danger knowing that the Dpctpr and Clara would try and do all they could to save him. The blame for Clara's death lies solely on her and her stupidity.
Col WillieSharp
Member
Is it not kosher to blame Rigsy? He handed his death sentence over to Clara willingly.
Sure, he didn't want to die, but that's no excuse. It was a cowardly move.
bishopcruz
Member
Lord that would have been so much better. No wonder Clara didn't actually have a character for all of Season 7. Did he say WHY he made such a boneheaded decision?
I never minded the actress for Clara, but to me she never had much of a character until far too late. She was bad with 11, and while she got better with 12, the best stories in Season 8 were the ones where she was supposedly leaving (the finale) and the ones where she wasn't much of a factor, or was gone (Mummy on the Orient Express). Season 9 was much better for her.
Then again, while I've only been a Who fan for a few years, one of the things I have learned is that fans will be divided, pretty much over everything. SO I get that people liked her. I just didn't for a LONG time.
acheron_xl
Member
It's fair to say they all fucked up.
She talked him into it and persuaded him that nothing bad would happen to her because she was the Doctor's favourite. I don't think it's really his fault at all considering he was lured into a trap and he trusted Clara's "strategy". He wouldn't have done it had she not been so persuasive.
bengraven
Member
Yeah and Rigsy wasn't given a new Retcon either, or he wouldn't have done the Clara tribute on the TARDIS at the end.
edit: beaten by Razmos
What really makes this scene poignant was the speech the 9th gave to Rose about what to do with the TARDIS if he were to die or not be able to reach it ever again.
https://youtu.be/xEuV_PGG9EU?t=1m7s
I had just watched it before this.
I'm not arguing that Ashildr wasn't stupid as shit, but Clara trying to be the Doctor is what got her killed. Part of the reason it was Rigsy and not anyone else in this situation because in Flatline she was the Doctor and Rigsy was her companion. The Doctor didn't turn her into a weapon like everyone else, he turned her into himself.
The Elite
BOSS
Clara chose to continue traveling with the Doctor despite the dangers involved and numerous brushes with death. That's why she was so adamant that the Doctor not seek revenge on anyone else. The decisions made were her own.
Of course, that doesn't mean others weren't complicit in the events that led to her death. The Doctor knows that and that's why he tells Ashildr to stay the fuck away from him because her recklessness created the scenario that led to Clara's death.
Ultimately, both Ashildr and Clara exhibited a similar arrogance that was comparable to the Doctor. The thing is, the Doctor can back it up with thousands of years of experience and knowing what to do in the moment. Ashildr and Clara are easily influenced children compared to him. They were both thrust into scenarios that a human mind is unequipped to handle and they naturally emulated the only person they know who makes it all look so easy.
OR, Fuck it. It's Rassilon and Omega's fault for creating the means to travel through time.
NuWho takes place in the Internet era though, where every fan can converge online and obsessively rank and re-rank the companions from best to worst, so I think it's hard to avoid any of them being "big central part of lore" at this point, even if the plot itself doesn't revolve around them.
I don't know if I care whether the next companion is more like an audience surrogate or not, but I do think they at least need to get away from the companions who act like they know the Doctor better than he knows himself. I don't think it's a bad direction to go, just played out at his point between Pond and Clara both doing it.
The Elite
BOSS
An encounter between the two would be explosive so I think they have definitely left it open for something more. They also have a legitimate reason for why the Doctor will never see her again.
I guess it will all come down to whether they have a good story to tell and can get the actress back.
Just decided this morning to finally jump in on the Big Finish audio dramas. I thought somebody here said the old ones were quite cheap? Was that a temporary deal? Because right now it's $9/hr for the Eight doctor stuff.
I'm going to buy the season 1 bundle of him which is 8 episodes for $40, but for some reason I expected it to be even cheaper than that.
I'm going to buy the season 1 bundle of him which is 8 episodes for $40, but for some reason I expected it to be even cheaper than that.
The Elite
BOSS
I decided to jump in last night.
I found some of the older 8th Doctor stuff at $2.99 Canadian. There is a Big Finish app on iOS (I assume android as well) to play the stuff on your phone.
Search for Storm Warning. I hear that one is good. I picked it up.
We still need a proper listening guide.
I've actually been thinking it might be fun to have siblings join team Tardis. That's a dynamic we haven't done yet between the main Doctor Who cast.
Ahhh I messed up. Looked up Eighth Doctor Adventures instead of Main Range. Oh well, $40 for 8 hours isn't so bad.
Annnnd I bought the first 3 $2.99 ones too. Want to start at the beginning.
bishopcruz
Member
EDAs are all great, they follow a closer format to NuWho, with the main range stuff following the classic Era format, even though in many ways it set the stage for what NuWho would become. There is a sale going on right now for the top 20 BF main range audios.
Storm Warning is a great intorductory piece, and Chimes of Midnight is flat out amazing. Chimes IMO, is the best Christmas themed Who ever made.
Edit:Noticed your edit. Hope you like them. Charley Pollard is the best.
My admiration for the Eighth Doctor and his continuing adventures over in Big Finish Land can never be overstated. Anyone who is considering giving the Eighth Doctor a spin...you really should do that. All Big Finish is great, but Eight's stuff is particularly inspired for some reason. Maybe it's just because McGann is so awesome as the Doctor.
When you all get there eventually the end of To the Death and the beginning of Dark Eyes just...ugh, they just kill me. I was completely heartbroken right along with the Eighth Doctor.
When you all get there eventually the end of To the Death and the beginning of Dark Eyes just...ugh, they just kill me. I was completely heartbroken right along with the Eighth Doctor.
bishopcruz
Member
Cannot agree more. The Eighth Doctor is my favorite doctor. McGann just kills it.
Also, Here's a link to the old audio drama thread, some good discussion there.
Was I the only one who really got a Pertwee vibe from Capaldi this episode? The tight close shots of his face and his bloodshot eyes really reminded me of how old and grumpy his character really is (and should be...hopefully we get old grumpy guitar playing doctor for awhile. We've had enough years between emo Tennant to distance itself and allow the Doctor to be all bad ass again.)
JonathanEx
Member
Such a good finale. I think despite the whole-world-at-stakes, it doesn't just drive you to think it matters because of that, or because there's an invading force. The simplicity in its scale makes it so effective. It's why I'll remember it more fondly than say, Time of the Doctor, which was more oooh big battle and Clara's attempts to get back just didn't feel as strong.
paragonpro
Banned
Claras end made me sob like a baby. i thought I didnt like clara, but man she grew on me.
Exterminieren
Banned
Clara's death was as a direct result of her attempt to live like the Doctor without the experience, the intellect or the invulnerability. Rigsy has been set up as Clara's closest equivalent to a companion since Flatline, and there's never been a Doctor that wouldn't do something similar to her actions for their companion. The difference is, of course, that the Doctor would have the extra knowledge, and wouldn't have done that with this sort of tech.
Note how Clara's basically copying the Doctor's strategy from Mummy on the Orient Express- take the death sentence from someone else, and give it to yourself. The difference is that the Doctor's gambit, although reckless, was necessary to figure out the solution, and he could rely on his own problem-solving skills to dig him out. Clara's gambit was pointless, and achieved absolutely nothing other than getting herself killed.
Note how Clara's basically copying the Doctor's strategy from Mummy on the Orient Express- take the death sentence from someone else, and give it to yourself. The difference is that the Doctor's gambit, although reckless, was necessary to figure out the solution, and he could rely on his own problem-solving skills to dig him out. Clara's gambit was pointless, and achieved absolutely nothing other than getting herself killed.
The Doctor would've done the same, but with the major difference of doing it at the last minute. He doesn't just do something reckless as plan B. He would've started at 1 or something to take the tattoo if he didn't find anything else, but not preventive when all options are still there. It's a bit like the drama in Romeo and Juliet with people jumping to conclusions way too fast.
What confuses me is why Ashildir took the actions she took. She had a situation where the people she protected were being threatened unless she delivered the Doctor to them. She knows what the Doctor is capable of and what he's willing to do. All she had to do was get him there (She could easily use the same method or hell just ask Rigsy to phone him for her) and then tell him what was going on and he would have spent the rest of the episode sorting it the hell out.
For someone who claims she's really smart she certainly did take the dumb as shit way out. Mind you she wasn't acting too clever when she let Lenny the Lion trick her last time either.
If someone had said to say Clara (or indeed any companion). "Hey. Unless you deliver us the Doctor we're gonna murder your gran" the very next thing you do is say "Hey Doctor. Can you deal with this crazy person please"
For someone who claims she's really smart she certainly did take the dumb as shit way out. Mind you she wasn't acting too clever when she let Lenny the Lion trick her last time either.
If someone had said to say Clara (or indeed any companion). "Hey. Unless you deliver us the Doctor we're gonna murder your gran" the very next thing you do is say "Hey Doctor. Can you deal with this crazy person please"
peanutbutterlatte
Member
Ahh looking back at that little worried speech The Doc gives at the end of Flatline about Clara being too much like The Doctor now ;(
Exterminieren
Banned
Well, that rather depends who it is who's putting the screws to her.
As it's almost certainly the Time Lords, I can see why she might want to avoid pissing off the universe's most powerful civilisation.
This is great, Peter Capaldi, Steven Moffat & Mark Gatiss take part in a Doctor Who pub quiz.
They came third.
https://twitter.com/ingridoliver100/status/668841357268488192
They came third.
https://twitter.com/ingridoliver100/status/668841357268488192
Nah. I don't care who it is. Not telling him is the Doctor Who equivalent of heading off by yourself in a horror movie to investigate a noise and as Ashely would tell you in my first playthrough of Until Dawn that's not a good idea
He's the Doctor. Just ask everyone who's ever stopped him how effective he is
JonathanEx
Member
The video's even more funny: https://twitter.com/ReetuKabra/status/668311001830436865
Spectromixer
Member
Ashildr also see's herself as a sort of adversary to the Doctor though. We also don't know who the people who are making her do this are. Perhaps she has reason to believe they are more powerful than the Doctor.
Oh my god, one part into Storm Warning. This is wonderful. The conversation between Eight and Charley when she's running away... he's just so interested while at the same time entirely at ease.
So excited.
*edit* I feel like beginning the audio dramas has moved me from "keeps up with the show" to "diehard fan" territory, though.
So excited.
*edit* I feel like beginning the audio dramas has moved me from "keeps up with the show" to "diehard fan" territory, though.
One of us! One of us!
Nah. I don't care who it is. Not telling him is the Doctor Who equivalent of heading off by yourself in a horror movie to investigate a noise and as Ashely would tell you in my first playthrough of Until Dawn that's not a good idea
He's the Doctor. Just ask everyone who's ever stopped him how effective he is
Asheilr clearly has a chip on her shoulder where it comes to the Doctor and, despite having all the facts about him, does not seem to understand him at all. I don't think she's aware that if she wanted to lure the Doctor into a situation where she teleports him away like that, all she'd have to do is ask for his help. He'd put the damn thing on himself.
R_thanatos
Member
And that's the damn problem with limited memory.
CloudyTuba
Member
So Clara's speech at the end was pretty interesting. I knew she was getting a little wreckless but I didn't truly know how messed up she was.
Apparently after Danny died she was real fucked up so she decided that she didn't want any of that human life bullshit anymore and aimed to become just like the Doctor as a form of escape from her pain. She was already an addict but now she was totally dependent. She didn't want to live in the real world anymore so she adopted what she perceived as the Doctor's attitude, and just started assuming she could never lose. What she then said however seemed to indicate that she knew this wasn't true and was actually secretly feeling suicidal. Then she played the game and lost so she faced it head on.
That's pretty fucking hardcore and I'm a little shocked and even a bit uncomfortable. I had no idea her issues were that extreme. Damn, poor Clara.
I dont really know what the hell that character thinks she's doing. Fucking things up, that's all I know.
Apparently after Danny died she was real fucked up so she decided that she didn't want any of that human life bullshit anymore and aimed to become just like the Doctor as a form of escape from her pain. She was already an addict but now she was totally dependent. She didn't want to live in the real world anymore so she adopted what she perceived as the Doctor's attitude, and just started assuming she could never lose. What she then said however seemed to indicate that she knew this wasn't true and was actually secretly feeling suicidal. Then she played the game and lost so she faced it head on.
That's pretty fucking hardcore and I'm a little shocked and even a bit uncomfortable. I had no idea her issues were that extreme. Damn, poor Clara.
I dont really know what the hell that character thinks she's doing. Fucking things up, that's all I know.
Friends and associates of people who commit suicide frequently make similar comments. She hid it fairly well, but there were certainly signs as far back as the Christmas special. The Doctor saw it too. He just didn't want to admit what he was looking at I think.
They kind of allude to how fucked up she is and how the doctor knows this early in the episode when she almost falls out of the TARDIS and the kid says something to the doc about how crazy and reckless she's being and how she enjoyed almost falling out...to which the doc replies (paraphrasing) "I know and I don't like the way she's been acting..."
CloudyTuba
Member
I had the same thought which is why it feels a bit uncomfortable. It sounds like friends of suicide victims, and that's almost what this is actually about.
But I dont mean 'uncomfortable' as in 'they shouldnt have done that.' I think it's great that they did that, and it should be uncomfortable.
As they say, the signs were there. They were just recognized too late.
The GIF is even better.
Awesome
bishopcruz
Member
Which is the reason I don't get people saying Clara didn't have development or an arc this season. It was pretty obvious to me, but I guess it was subtle enough for people to miss. Clara was reckless as hell and had a death wish.
Glad you're liking it. Eighth Doctor is best Doctor.
I think people examine these sorts of things more carefully if they're already emotionally invested in the character. If Amy or Rose had had an arc like this, people would've seen it coming a mile away. A fair number of people were not emotionally invested in Clara at all and I think a fair number of us were more than willing to chalk the inconsistent behavior of her character up to the writing simply being inconsistent. Which is fair enough, really since how her character has been written in previous seasons does have its fair share of inconsistencies or, if not exactly inconsistencies, certainly irritating vagaries.
Edit: As for why I noticed it, well, it really comes down to me spending altogether too much time overthinking everything, but Doctor Who most of all.
SolidSnakeUS
Member
I'm surprised she didn't say anything like "I'm coming Danny."
Bobby Roberts
Banned
This sorta sums up all my problems with Clara's characterization over the course of her time on the show, actually. As much as I ended up liking her, and as well as Coleman was playing her no matter what they were asking her to do - this is just another example of us basically being told what Clara is like as opposed to really seeing it.
We should have known her issues were that extreme. It's not like you're inattentive or anything. You watch this show, you note the arcs, you can analyze and investigate plot threads, character motivations, so on and so forth. You're invested. And yet one of the major motivations of the character that plays directly into her demise was so backgrounded and left alone that it took a character specifically saying it out loud in the episode where she dies before it takes on any sort of impact.
Now imagine if they were SHOWING us Clara sliding down that slope. Imagine how much more punch this episode would have had. Now you could argue that this wasn't a dropped ball, but subtlety at work. But I don't know that I agree with that. I'm not sure subtlety is a strong suit of this show, and I'm not sure subtlety to the point where longtime viewers are leaving episodes confused as to what we're supposed to be feeling is benefitting the storytelling much, if at all. I'm more inclined to believe it's not really subtlety. It's just shortcutting the hard work with a line of dialog every other episode and hoping someone will remind you in time before it's needed.
They kept doing that to her, all through her run. It was a good run. But it was definitely frustrating.