IdreamofHIME
Member
Don't worry Doctor, took me a billion years to beat Dark Souls too.
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Doctor Who Series 9 |OT| Let Zygons Be Zygons
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tonysidaway
Member
Yes, I got that clearly in the very first scene. The initial sequence shows a badly injured hand operating a lever, followed by the activation of a teleport from which Doctor Who springs still raw and fresh from the death of Clara. He steps out and notices the dust, and he's alone. It was great to see in detail how it worked out. I can't wait to watch it again.
One amusing nuance is how in the barrier chipping montage he gradually makes a little more progress in his final speech before he's zapped. That's clever writing.
Why are there so many spoiler tags for what is speculation based off of the episode that just aired?
I don't think the Doctor is the Hybrid. He has shown curiosity towards things that could be considered hybrid throughout this series. He also spent over two billion years punching a wall just so he could not tell them where the hybrid was. I am going to go ahead and guess that he didn't say that he was the hybrid as his last confession because the wall would not have moved or broken. I think he is just saying that to try and scare the hell out of the Time Lords, because he is pissed as hell.
I don't think the Doctor is the Hybrid. He has shown curiosity towards things that could be considered hybrid throughout this series. He also spent over two billion years punching a wall just so he could not tell them where the hybrid was. I am going to go ahead and guess that he didn't say that he was the hybrid as his last confession because the wall would not have moved or broken. I think he is just saying that to try and scare the hell out of the Time Lords, because he is pissed as hell.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
Plus, he's already flat out lied about the nature of the hybrid as a confession and got away with it once. Pretty sure so long as he sells it hard enough, he can get away with it again.
But keying in on the potential misdirect that "Me" doesn't mean "The Doctor" but "Me" means "Ashildr" seems like the safest bet.
But keying in on the potential misdirect that "Me" doesn't mean "The Doctor" but "Me" means "Ashildr" seems like the safest bet.
I was thinking during the episode that he's cutting getting back to the teleporter so close each time that he should be careful that he doesn't increase the distance he has to travel too far and end up dying in a corridor somewhere
Fine Ham Abounds
Member
Well, that was something. The hand at the beginning was too much of a hint and the dry clothes telegraphed it, but still I can say Moffat wrote something here as clever as he usually thinks he is. The whole production was on point for this though, from the writing, to the nearly perfect score, to Capaldi really selling every scene.
I imagine maybe I'm being too generous, but I think everyone who is a fan of this show has had a Doctor Who story they've imagined since they were a kid, and for me, it was the Doctor trapped inside an MC Escher puzzle with the solution being something both backwards and forwards in time, so as cheesy and self serving as it sounds, this episode spoke to me.
It's a shame that the last line sets up what could be the biggest finale letdown after the best buildup ever.
I'm half expecting Eric Roberts to show up as Omega or something to start part 2
I imagine maybe I'm being too generous, but I think everyone who is a fan of this show has had a Doctor Who story they've imagined since they were a kid, and for me, it was the Doctor trapped inside an MC Escher puzzle with the solution being something both backwards and forwards in time, so as cheesy and self serving as it sounds, this episode spoke to me.
It's a shame that the last line sets up what could be the biggest finale letdown after the best buildup ever.
I'm half expecting Eric Roberts to show up as Omega or something to start part 2
NotTheGuyYouKill
Member
What a magnificent, amazing, creepy, gorgeous episode. One of the best. Capaldi was phenomenal.
Credit to reddit user Degann for transcribing (https://www.reddit.com/r/doctorwho/comments/3ums9z/doctor_who_9x11_heaven_sent_postepisode/#s):
It's amusing once you see it like that.
It's amusing once you see it like that.
Nit pick - was that second shot of the skull falling in the ware and coming to rest on other skulls literally a repeat of the first shot? That gave me battlestar galactica cheap FX flashbacks. And there was no need - just cut that shot after the skull falls in the water if you can't afford the video toaster time to render a different version
Fine Ham Abounds
Member
It's so odd how Capaldi went from feeling like a fish out of water going through the motions in several spots last series, to this episode where it feels like he's been the Doctor for 10 years.
True, however the doctor isn't really trapped for two billion years, and that dilutes the peril a little for me. It was more like billions of doctors, each being trapped for a few days. So you don't get that sense of determination or purgatory or punishment that you might otherwise.
Unless there is any hint that he retains any memory like Bill Murray does in Groundhog Day? Murray was way more tormented than the Doctor
Stallion Dan
Member
I sort of liked it but the loop breaks it own rules, which ultimately ruins the entire idea of it.
When did he lie about the nature of the hybrid? He confessed that he knows where and what the hybrid is. He told of the prophecy that it was half dalek, half timelord, but not that it was true.
I don't think Ashildr is the hybrid. If she is, why tell that to the Timelords? Also how would he know her future? He can't even keep track of her. I admit, I also am just hoping that it is not Ashildr. I find her character to become more annoying every time she appears.
Fine Ham Abounds
Member
Man, this sucks. This was such a compelling episode, and next week we get fucking Gallifrey, the only recurring location in the series with a higher potential for bad episodes than Earth at Christmastime
In terms of NuWho or Old Who as well?
Bobby Roberts
Banned
I interpreted that to be the lie. The specificity of which two races made up the hybrid read as the lie to me. So if he knowingly lied about what it was (and it appears that he did, considering his dialog regarding how stupid an idea that would be) and the creature backed off, it's not a question of whether he's actually saying true things, it's whether he's being convincing enough to fool the Gallifreyan lie detector inside his confession dial.
Well then.
True, however the doctor isn't really trapped for two billion years, and that dilutes the peril a little for me. It was more like billions of doctors, each being trapped for a few days. So you don't get that sense of determination or purgatory or punishment that you might otherwise.
Unless there is any hint that he retains any memory like Bill Murray does in Groundhog Day? Murray was way more tormented than the Doctor
I think the lack of retained memory makes it even more horrifying. Each incarnation of the Doctor is faced with the decision of just giving up the secret and living or dying and keeping the secret, with the knowledge that billions of other Doctors after him will similarly die until finally one breaks through and gets to enact revenge. The realistaion that you're not the original, and your life purely exists only to help some other version far removed from you must be pretty rough psychologically.
tonysidaway
Member
The series is so fortunate to have Murray Gold and the BBC National Orchestra of Wales. The pavane at 14'45" leading up the stairs to the dry clothes is breathtaking, gorgeous and perfectly suited to the mediaeval Escher pastiche of the setting.
He was quoting a prophecy, but even he just made it up it doesn't matter. The confession was that he knew where and what it was. Everything else before it could have been a lie, but he did tell the truth. There is no reason to assume that he could lie to the Veil. If he could there would be no reason to punch the wall.
NotTheGuyYouKill
Member
The music was so beautiful in this episode. That track during the 'bird montage' was phenomenal.
NotTheGuyYouKill
Member
Thank you!
peanutbutterlatte
Member
I imagine the Time Lords didn't apply the reset protocol to the diamond room because seriously what lunatic would punch through a diamond wall
It's so good. An extended version from that one minute in This Time There's Three of Us from Day of the Doctor. Brilliant.
We haven't had much of Gallifrey in the new series to be honest, mostly short scenes showing it at big crisis moments (mostly to do with the Time War). Never a full episode set there, which is probably what the next episode will be.
The classic series did have a number of (multi-episode) stories set entirely on Gallifrey, and well, it never really worked. I think some of the plots themselves were fun, but it ruined the mystique behind the Doctor a bit. I'm completely on board with revealing little hints about the Doctor's past here and there as I take each 'era' of Doctor Who on its own (what is and isn't 'canon' isn't that important to me, as long as the stories are good), but the version of Gallifrey they showed in the classic series was just a goofy, boring place full of parodies of bureaucrats. It never really worked. My personal most hated thing about old Gallifrey was that they had a parody of the CIA (still called that, although it stood for 'Celestial Intervention Agency') with a bunch of exceptionally bad actors there to act out a lot of bad comedy. Bad jokes can be fun, or otherwise easily ignored, but it just was the wrong time and place for crap like that - and the old Gallifrey episodes were full of stuff like that. Robert Holmes (normally a really fun writer) mostly set this up during the 4th Doctor's run, but he really went too far with making Gallifrey a silly parody instead of the mysterious place it should have been.
The Fisher King sort of referred to that this series, saying something about the Timelords being 'a bunch of boring bureaucrats who suddenly remembered they had teeth (during the Time War)'. Not an exact quote, but Moffat has said in the past that the overuse and sillyness of Gallifrey in the classic series was a mistake.
I doubt they'll do anything like that now, but doing Gallifrey right certainly is very tricky. It's a big balancing act whenever you heavily go into the Doctor's personal world/past like that. At least Moffat is aware why it didn't work in the old series.
Edit: I should add that a couple of fun things came out of the classic series Gallifrey 'lore' as well. Most notably stuff like Omega, Romana or Douglas Adams' idea for Shada.
I don't think Ashildr is the hybrid. That would be weird in the context of what the Doctor says in the end and what the prophecy said. Two warrior races. Sitting on the top of Gallifrey. I can't imagine this being Ashildr. Then again, the wordplay seems important. I can''t wait for next week.
Broken Joystick
At least you can talk. Who are you?
Ashildr is a viking though, they're pretty much the warriors' warriors.
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
I'm just hoping that Moffat's form carries through from this episode; if it does we could have an absolute scorcher for the finale. It's been really weird, I've thought this season was one of the worst of NuWho with only the Fisher King duo being particularly interesting, but one episode of Heaven Sent's quality and I'm suddenly all excited again!
I feel like that was just a deliberate taunt by whoever designed the maze. Like "Oh hey, here's the exit, you just have to get through 20ft of almost impenetrable crystal. That must be super annoying for you, huh?"
Human and Mire.
The Mire were called the greatest mercenaries in the galaxy, and at the end when The Doctor brought Ashidr back to life, he said that the chip had infused her with some Mire DNA.
It would blindside the Timelords because they probably don't think of Humans as a "warrior race" when I think Doctor Who reminds us a lot of the time just how violent we are as a species.
There is also the wordplay, the Doctor has always called Ashildr "Ashildr". No matter what she asks him to call her, so when he says "The Hybrid is Me" in this episode, you'd think he's referring to himself. Except he doesn't call her Ashildr any more because of her part in killing Clara, essentially no longer being the innocent girl he saved.
Zeouterlimits
Member
Has anyone spotted a good gif of the Tardis turning on sequence, when the Doctor is regaining conciousness?
If it was the Doctor, building up the idea of a hybrid seems pretty pointless. Unless of course they're going to reference the movie. But they're definitely not doing that.
Then again there have been rumours of
Paul Mcgann
I assume the plan was just wear him down until full soul bearing then either boot him out or finish him off. I can't assume they planned billions of years of wall punching.
Holy shit, I just finished Heaven Sent, I did not expect it to be THAT good. Peter Capaldi is Boss, it was so thrilling to see him solve the mystery and getting over Clara. I think it's the best episode of New Who I have ever seen (or at least the best Capaldi episode).
I absolutely cannot wait until next week.
I absolutely cannot wait until next week.
Finally, Gallifrey!
Fault in the plan, it's the only room that doesn't reset after the Doctor leaves it, probably because the stuff takes him billions of years to break down and they didn't expect it.
The final confession would have opened the wall, setting him free.
tonysidaway
Member
The wall was certainly there to be punched.
The absence of resets in certain places was no accident. It was a puzzle. Somebody set it up so that it could be beaten.
The Time Lord bureaucracy in the old series was let down by lame writing and lack of funds. So far in the revival they've been tolerable at the very least. The look is right. Timothy Dalton's scenery chewing made them seem real. Ken Bones is back and Donald Sumpter is great at this sort of thing, you can put him in any costume and he looks and acts the part.
I think we may be in for a treat.
The absence of resets in certain places was no accident. It was a puzzle. Somebody set it up so that it could be beaten.
The Time Lord bureaucracy in the old series was let down by lame writing and lack of funds. So far in the revival they've been tolerable at the very least. The look is right. Timothy Dalton's scenery chewing made them seem real. Ken Bones is back and Donald Sumpter is great at this sort of thing, you can put him in any costume and he looks and acts the part.
I think we may be in for a treat.
peanutbutterlatte
Member
I don't know why somebody's confused that humans can't be a "great warrior race". The Doctor gives them shit for it consistently.
There are some good reasons to believe Ashildr/Me is who The Doctor referred to (I mean, she even calls herself "Me", lol), but at the same time he specifically calls out the "half Dalek"-part of the prophecy to be faulty: "The Hybrid is not half Dalek. Nothing is half Dalek. The Daleks would never allow that." It suggests that the half Time Lord-thing is still true, though.
Think Moffat is just trolling because he knows people don't like the half-human, half-time lord thing from the movie and he also knows people are smart enough to connect the Me thing instantly. So I don't think it's either the Doctor or Maisie Williams.
It'll be something like "The Master is the hybrid for some unexplained reason" and then we'll all be like "Oh Moffat".
It'll be something like "The Master is the hybrid for some unexplained reason" and then we'll all be like "Oh Moffat".
What partnership? She wasn't working with them at all. Unless you're referring to her "I've just had an idea" line? Probably referring to reusing their beam energy to teleport away.
peanutbutterlatte
Member
I think it's already been confirmed Davros has nothing to do with the whole "hybrid" thing (no matter how much he thought he did), and I don't see Missy being involved either.
They have to save something for Series 10, maybe even Capaldi's regeneration.