I am defiantly pro-Moffat after all this time and even I think Wedding of River Song is basically all the flash of The Big Bang with none of the substance, nuance, meaning or style. It's like a "worst possible timeline" version of an episode I love. They really missed the mark on that one. Which is a shame because they started so strong with The Impossible Astronaut.
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Doctor Who Series 9 |OT| Let Zygons Be Zygons
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I am defiantly pro-Moffat after all this time and even I think Wedding of River Song is basically all the flash of The Big Bang with none of the substance, nuance, meaning or style. It's like a "worst possible timeline" version of an episode I love. They really missed the mark on that one. Which is a shame because they started so strong with The Impossible Astronaut.
The credits with all the names flying by on the screen got me hyped for Journey's End.
Then there's the scene with everyone on the TARDIS console that just gave me some feels.
Finished listening to Zagreus, the last story of the Eighth Doctors first series and the 50th Big Finish Doctor Who audio drama. What a hot mess! I think if I had waited eighteen months from this following off of Neverland, I would have been disappointed. Lucky for me, I did not have to wait at all.
Instead, I promptly got what I would call an exceedingly questionable but otherwise enjoyable journey into time/space/the centre of the Tardis. Any plot that revolves around a universe that is the antithesis of our own that can only be combatted with a sword and/or mystic being crafted from the exploded bits of a DIFFERENT universe ALSO the antithesis of our own was going to have problems. Oh, and cant forget this is all the sinister plan of the ghost/resurrection/matric projection/??? of
.
However, the interactions between 5/6/7/8 are fun, and the little vignettes with their lore dumps are engaging until the unsatisfying end. I do not like how Charley and the Doctors relationship progresses for lack of a better word in this story. I suppose its a story that is less than the sum of its parts. The good parts are good, the bad parts are bad, and the total is junk.
The whole thing feels like a but WAIT, theres MORE to Neverland, when I really preferred the earlier story as a conclusion to series 1.
Unfortunately, this has to end my Eighth Doctor adventures until my bank account recovers, which could be 2-4 weeks. At the moment I feel like Eight is one of my favourite Doctors, but that doesnt mean that way because I feel that way about all of them as I watch them. I think he is more from each of the NuWho Doctors than they are from each other, and I like that. Hes a poet, he feels things in a way the others do not. Hes at once detached from the immediate reality of the situation but in complete empathy with the broad or sweeping historical/romantic context. More than any other Doctor Ive seen (1, 2, 9-12) I believe him when he rattles off a list of places in the universe and says that they are awe-inspiring. When I first started listening, I imagined his Night of the Doctor outfit as Id seen that and not the film, but to be honest my mind quickly supplanted a fabrication of his classic outfit, as it fits him so well.
As for the quality of the stories, I would say the following are those I would rank them thusly:
Good/great:
1) Chimes of Midnight
2) The Stones of Venice
3) Storm Warning
4) Neverland
5) Seasons of Fear
6) Embrace the Darkness
And these average:
7) Sword of Orion
8) Minuet in Hell
9) Invaders from Mars
10) Zagreus
Bad:
11) Time of the Daleks
Which for an 11 episode series, is fairly good?
I look forward to continuing for sure, and to catching up enough that I can start buying the War/Tenth Doctor boxes as well. Thanks to everyone in this thread who recommended the Big Finish Eighth Doctor dramas, they are a blast.
Instead, I promptly got what I would call an exceedingly questionable but otherwise enjoyable journey into time/space/the centre of the Tardis. Any plot that revolves around a universe that is the antithesis of our own that can only be combatted with a sword and/or mystic being crafted from the exploded bits of a DIFFERENT universe ALSO the antithesis of our own was going to have problems. Oh, and cant forget this is all the sinister plan of the ghost/resurrection/matric projection/??? of
Rassilon
However, the interactions between 5/6/7/8 are fun, and the little vignettes with their lore dumps are engaging until the unsatisfying end. I do not like how Charley and the Doctors relationship progresses for lack of a better word in this story. I suppose its a story that is less than the sum of its parts. The good parts are good, the bad parts are bad, and the total is junk.
The whole thing feels like a but WAIT, theres MORE to Neverland, when I really preferred the earlier story as a conclusion to series 1.
Unfortunately, this has to end my Eighth Doctor adventures until my bank account recovers, which could be 2-4 weeks. At the moment I feel like Eight is one of my favourite Doctors, but that doesnt mean that way because I feel that way about all of them as I watch them. I think he is more from each of the NuWho Doctors than they are from each other, and I like that. Hes a poet, he feels things in a way the others do not. Hes at once detached from the immediate reality of the situation but in complete empathy with the broad or sweeping historical/romantic context. More than any other Doctor Ive seen (1, 2, 9-12) I believe him when he rattles off a list of places in the universe and says that they are awe-inspiring. When I first started listening, I imagined his Night of the Doctor outfit as Id seen that and not the film, but to be honest my mind quickly supplanted a fabrication of his classic outfit, as it fits him so well.
As for the quality of the stories, I would say the following are those I would rank them thusly:
Good/great:
1) Chimes of Midnight
2) The Stones of Venice
3) Storm Warning
4) Neverland
5) Seasons of Fear
6) Embrace the Darkness
And these average:
7) Sword of Orion
8) Minuet in Hell
9) Invaders from Mars
10) Zagreus
Bad:
11) Time of the Daleks
Which for an 11 episode series, is fairly good?
I look forward to continuing for sure, and to catching up enough that I can start buying the War/Tenth Doctor boxes as well. Thanks to everyone in this thread who recommended the Big Finish Eighth Doctor dramas, they are a blast.
tonysidaway
Member
That's an exceptionally well argued case against The Wedding. Thank you, knowing that it's possible to make an anagram about the episode title completely evaporates the sense of wonder and excitement the Series 6 finale engenders. I'll be sure to watch out for problems like that in future. That discovery must have been devastating for you. Thank you for bringing it to my attention.
tonysidaway
Member
I don't know whether GOAT means good or bad. This is the problem with using obscure acronyms.
What I really like about that one is that all the dalek nonsense is brushed out of the way in the first half, leaving a long space for the series resolution. The TARDIS towing Earth is the kind of ridiculous idea that somehow works emotionally, and it may be my favourite scene of Davies' entire run. Davies squeezes his entire supporting cast into that one activity, as the scenes on the TARDIS are merged with scenes showing the effects on Earth. It's really outrageous, but it's great television.
The resolutions of the Rose and Donna arcs are also in that episode. A lot of pathos is squeezed into an astonishingly tight space. It's much bigger on the inside.
It's far from one of the worst. It's very fast paced, zany and nuts-but it's never boring. A boring episode is the worst this show could offer-something like In The Forest of The Night fits that bill.
I think the bolded is true, but it was an absolutely fun episode. Doctor Who toyed with various genre. However, this is the only one that I feel exuded that action popcorn flick feel: Colorful backdrops, one-liners, characters that tried to be as badass as possible, tentpole plot setup, and a consistent forward momentum. It has a barely coherent plot, but that's not exactly rare for the genre.
tonysidaway
Member
This set me on trying to work out which episodes I find boring. I recently rewatched Night Terrors for the first time after discussing it here. I felt I ought to give it a chance. It wasn't a very rewarding experience. There are other episodes in both Davies' and Moffat's run, I'd name 42 as one that really didn't work for me.
But others will find the same episodes entertaining and fun. I remain convinced that the problem here is not in the writing.
tonysidaway
Member
It's a magic trick, an illusion. In the series opening Moffat shows us exactly what happens, Doctor Who is killed. He even has a character come in at the end of the Lake Silencio sequence to make sure that Doctor Who's body is burned. Because it's a time travel show a younger version of Doctor Who then turns up, quite ignorant of what everybody else has seen.
The finale is the prestige, where the series opener is reassembled so as to leave Doctor Who unharmed. Because this is drama rather than stage illusion, the trick is explained. But in the course of the explanation a new trick is set up. How will he evade the curse of fatal death at Trenzalore? And we're off again.
As a first year Ph.D. student, something about Heaven Sent just really clicked for me. I'm not sure if it's the loss of my old life or just the idea of fighting through micro gains for an unknown duration into the future, but that episode just totally hit at me. I love it.
and I loved this so much I had to piece it together for my phone, thought I'd share with everyone...
and I loved this so much I had to piece it together for my phone, thought I'd share with everyone...
tonysidaway
Member
Heaven Sent, I think, should be recognisable to gamers as a classic grind cycle. There is just enough gain in the cycle to make the long slog worthwhile, if there is no other way to achieve the objective.
Thanks for this. Using it as well.
Exterminieren
Banned
I wanted to buy this ugly beauty before Christmas but it's out of stock:
It was a BBC Shop exclusive and I can't find it anywhere else. I checked other ugly sweaters on ebay and etsy but nothing good.
Oh well, I'll be faster next year...
My sister owns one of these. It's a thing of hideous beauty.
So it can live in the same family as "LAME SHIT" (Timelash)?
bishopcruz
Member
I kinda hated Zagraeus. I honestly have very little memory of it, and it really doesn't figure much in to any other release. I also think I might have slept through some of it. It's kinda hard to tell if I dreamed the Ace duck or not. There is some good stuff coming up with Eight, though he does get a little more uneven (in the general consensus) soon.
Stubagful has a series of videos discussing the Eighth Doctor line at BF, he's up to EDA season 2, I think right now. If you are tight on cash, he has pretty good taste on what can be skipped and what can't especially for the upcoming 2 series. I absolutely recommend Scherzo, Natural History of Fear, Faith Stealers and Caerdroia. Now that I think on it though, the real skippable ones IMO, come after Terror Firma.
Glad you are liking them. Chimes of Midnight may still be my favorite Dr. Who audio, and so much of the rest was amazing too. McGann is just so perfect for the role, there is a reason he is my favorite Doctor.
I just picked up the War Doctor set and listened to the first episode. It's pretty great so far, the first episode sets things up well, and John Hurt is KILLING it as the War Doctor, you really feel the weight of the war on his shoulders.
Edit: I almost forgot, if you are jonesing for more Eighth doctor, Check out Shada. It's an Eighth doctor retelling of an unfinished Fourth Doctor story written by Douglas Adams. The BBC contracted Big Finish to do the audio for a animated Flash series. You can also get the CDs themselves from BF, and they are cheap, but this is free, so there is that.
For me TWORS is only mediocre compared to that God tier S5 finale.
ETA - I also chuckle every time someone says a finale resolved the Time War. That's happened 5/8 finales apparently.
APZonerunner
Member
TWORS is definitely shit tier compared to everything, even the last ten minutes of Last of the Time Lords. What a fucking mess of an episode. Smith's hair is cool in its longer state throughout that episode, though.
As someone who largely prefers the Moffat era and Moffat's style of handling things in general, The Wedding of River Song is absolutely the worst finale and one of the worst episodes period of the last decade.
It's not just that it's a mess, but that it's absolutely pointless. None of it matters at all, it's contrived as hell, and frankly the thing that irks me most about it is the Moffat setting up a scenario where Amy and Rory are split up again just so we can watch them get back together again (a well that Moffat goes back to just two episodes later, in Asylum of the Daleks, but for whatever reason I find it more annoying here). It's one of those times where the fan pandering completely misses the mark for me; I don't subscribe to Amy/Rory tumblrs, so watching them fall in love in an alternate reality means nothing to me.
It technically means 'greatest of all time,' and I mean only technically because in practice it's used to describe virtually anything that anybody likes.
It's not just that it's a mess, but that it's absolutely pointless. None of it matters at all, it's contrived as hell, and frankly the thing that irks me most about it is the Moffat setting up a scenario where Amy and Rory are split up again just so we can watch them get back together again (a well that Moffat goes back to just two episodes later, in Asylum of the Daleks, but for whatever reason I find it more annoying here). It's one of those times where the fan pandering completely misses the mark for me; I don't subscribe to Amy/Rory tumblrs, so watching them fall in love in an alternate reality means nothing to me.
It technically means 'greatest of all time,' and I mean only technically because in practice it's used to describe virtually anything that anybody likes.
Again I know I'm probably alone in this, but I honestly loved Wedding of River Song. If you're going to do a season about River it should end in a giant bonkers finale where time is falling apart because River wants to save to Doctor, ending in their wedding. I can totally see why some people hate it, but I loved all of it. It was basically a giant homage to the Third Doctor story 'Inferno', complete with alternate reality eyepatches. Some really good lines as well, like the 'we seem to be defending ourselves' bit.
Series 6 Moffat is worst Moffat, by far. Had his episodes been up to snuff I would've thought a lot better of it. What we got was a shit streak of AGMGTW/Let's Kill Hitler/TWORS and then capping it off with one of the worst Who-episodes ever in The Doctor, The Widow And The Wardrobe.
I think he rebounded in series 7. His episodes were by far the best ones, and since then he's upped his game significantly for series 8 and series 9 (though I'm not that fond of the first two episodes of series 9).
I think he rebounded in series 7. His episodes were by far the best ones, and since then he's upped his game significantly for series 8 and series 9 (though I'm not that fond of the first two episodes of series 9).
I loved all 3 of these episodes. (Although I can totally understand the TWORS hate lol). But TDtWatW? Straight up trash. By far the worst episode Moffat has ever written.
Ignatz Mouse
Banned
Let's Kill Hitler is where I almost quit.
The number of "WTF"s my wife and I threw at the TV was astounding.
It was so bad in such particular ways that I was amazed that it was even made.
It remains one of the best examples of really, really bad writing by Moffatt. If you can ignore all the logical inconsistencies and yet still care enough to follow the plot that *depends* on them, then I guess it might have been fun. I couldn't.
The number of "WTF"s my wife and I threw at the TV was astounding.
It was so bad in such particular ways that I was amazed that it was even made.
It remains one of the best examples of really, really bad writing by Moffatt. If you can ignore all the logical inconsistencies and yet still care enough to follow the plot that *depends* on them, then I guess it might have been fun. I couldn't.
Nah. The amount of introductions to various enemies, monsters and a bunch of random characters that are supposedly The Doctor's friends and allies, most of them never seen again, is just exhausting. Not to mention the contrived attempts at making Rory seem badass, a super-boring production that looks quite cheap, and an overly drawn-out reveal of River's identity, which had already been teased to death at that point. It's not all bad, though; mostly thanks to some good Matt-moments ("Good men don't need rules. Today is not the day to find out why I have so many." is such a great line) and Lorna Bucket who I thought was a nice guest character.
Let's Kill Hitler is slightly better overall, but generally I just find it quite bland. There's not that much I dislike about it, but I find very little I like. The miniaturized people controlling a fake body was fun, I guess. Still bad by Moffat-standards.
I like to think that somewhere in a parallel universe where the series didn't get split in two there is a version of A Good Man Goes to War / Let's Kill Hitler that doesn't suck. I think it would be a two-parter revolving around the adventure that gets referenced in the episode, you know, the one in the forest, building to the revelation of River's identity when Mels is forced to regenerate.
Unfortunately what we got was an episode where nothing means anything and the twist has no impact, and an episode which doesn't even pretend it's doing anything other than filling in plot holes that no-one cared about.
Unfortunately what we got was an episode where nothing means anything and the twist has no impact, and an episode which doesn't even pretend it's doing anything other than filling in plot holes that no-one cared about.
What? Literally every one of the Doctor's allies shows up again except for one that dies, and one was already introduced in a previous episode.
Is it better than Mad Max tho
Realized that my text was a bit confusing there. I was referring to enemies as well. Like that Colonel, or the Headless Monks, in addition to that blue head guy that we only very briefly ever see again and Lorna Bucket. My main point was that to have sooo many characters in here of various types, and to have so many be previously unintroduced, just felt messy, especially as several of them disappear after this episode or shortly after. But fair game to Moffat for actually making The Paternoster Gang a recurring group; at the time they just added to the mess, though. So I don't feel it worked quite as well as in Journey's End, where there was a HUGE number of characters, but we already knew them so it's not really a problem.
But yeah, what I wrote about "not seeing most characters ever again" was a bit exaggerated and not true. Doesn't change my point, though.
I just wish Barrowman wasn't tied up and could've appeared as Captain Jack in it.
If Malcolm Merlyn ever gets killed off in Arrow the DW team (Moffat or next showrunner) need to act fast and get him as a multi episode guest star again. At least we got a reference this season.
peanutbutterlatte
Member
It's nothing to do with Arrow. Arrow showrunners are big DW fans, said they'd give him time off. Moffatt ain't interested right now.
GustyGardner
Member
Outside of the badass Rory stuff (seriously take off that centurion armour, you look ridiculous) A Good Man Goes to War is one of my favourite episodes of Moffat's run. Smith really knocked it out of the park in this one. I loved the idea of the Doctor becoming too noticed, and attracting all this unwanted attention that leads to his highest moment, and then his biggest defeat. It definitely has some problems like the Madame Kovarian stuff going nowhere in the end and too many side characters, but I'd definitely rank it high on my all time list.
Wedding of River Song on the other hand just has too much crazy shit going on at once. What was even the point of the Silence and the eye patches and the secret bases in the pyramids and the pterodactyls in central London? Actually, thinking back I did kind of enjoy all the stuff with the Doctor and the blue guy's head. It was just the parallel world and wedding stuff that sort of makes me want to know what Moffat was on when writing this script. Honestly, I love Moffat but this is probably my least favourite of his stories.
Wedding of River Song on the other hand just has too much crazy shit going on at once. What was even the point of the Silence and the eye patches and the secret bases in the pyramids and the pterodactyls in central London? Actually, thinking back I did kind of enjoy all the stuff with the Doctor and the blue guy's head. It was just the parallel world and wedding stuff that sort of makes me want to know what Moffat was on when writing this script. Honestly, I love Moffat but this is probably my least favourite of his stories.
Series 6 and 9 have definitely proved to me that it should be a one-part opening and a two-part finale, not the other way around.
Plus, he isn't a necessary character. He shouldnt even be in the city that much that he is. One would think that he is busy with management, HR and complaints about unnessary deaths right now.
I've shamelessly stolen that as my new phone background. Love it, thanks!
Not sure if this really qualifies as "news", but apparently series 10 will feature two new writers and if Moffat told us who they were, our brains would explode.
Armando Iannucci please.
Broken Joystick
At least you can talk. Who are you?
That would be the tits
BrokenFiction
Member
That's just mean to even say.
"How are you going to FUCKING win??"
I'm always up for new blood.
At the same time, I'm kind of hoping Richard Curtis would come back and write another episode. Not quite Vincent and The Doctor Part 2, but I'm curious to see how he'd write the 12th Doctor.