Do people not agree with this? Donna is the best.
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Doctor Who Series 9 |OT| Let Zygons Be Zygons
- Thread starter Quick
- Start date
Do people not agree with this? Donna is the best.
Poodlestrike
Banned
I still wish they could've gotten Mark Sheppard for more episodes, since I think that could've topped it, but as is?
No arguments. Doctor needs more companions who are thoroughly unimpressed with him, or at least act that way.
acheron_xl
Member
1 and Vicki are a severely underrated pair.
Couldn't stand Donna. From the moment she decided she knew better regarding time travel than the 1000 year-old time traveller in Fires of Pompeii, I was done with that character.
Actually that's a lie, I already couldn't stand her from The Runaway Bride.
water_wendi
Water is not wet!
In crisis situations its helpful to be positive.
Its the Mistress/Master? Outlandish wild schemes have been their thing.
Didnt really seem very dramatic. She took 3 seconds to walk from the car to the table. i had to rewatch this part because i thought i had missed something but even now i dont get this complaint.
i dont even understand what the complaint is here.
i think the snipers are more for their protection. They should have evacuated the area though. Fair enough.
i agree that the Doctor dying is an annoying plot but its just part of the hook. Its not about the Doctor dying but the Doctor succumbing to despair from the guilt of his actions.
Guy gets attacked by snake and converted to Dalek puppet. Its also worth noting that the scene where the puppet finds the TARDIS we see a POV shot of someone lurking and observing him. Since the story isnt finished it might be relevant.
The easiest explanation is that the tank doesnt stay there so it doesnt disrupt time. As for why it was there in the first place.. he didnt really care as he was dealing with the fact that all the hundreds of billions that are killed by the Daleks are ultimately his fault because he couldnt murder.
The story isnt finished?
Anyway.. baseless speculation..
Many are thinking that we will see how Davros came to be deformed and that the Doctor/companions are responsible but im thinking that this story might change the Daleks in a completely different way. The "save my friend" line could be referring to Davros. i rewatched Genesis of the Daleks the other day and the Doctor is discussing with Davros about altering the Daleks to be an instrument of peace for the universe. If the later Doctors abandonment is one of the pivotal moments he wouldnt realize this until hundreds of years later and would only be able to try and fix it then. Theyll probably go the safe route but the option is there to change things radically (for a bit anyways)
Fact: Vicki was better than Susan. Better actress (almost sounds like blasphemy, but Carole Ann Ford really wasn't a great actress), slightly less of a screamer, and just more fun. Her 'origin story' was a bit nonsensical, but that's not unusual for classic companions.
I love Barbara and Ian a lot, but I think the Vicki/Steven team was the best companion team the first Doctor had. I loved how Steven honestly gets incredibly angry at the Doctor after some of the series' darkest, deadliest stories (and he actually has a right to be) - that just seemed very unusual for the show at that point. (sadly that conflict ended with Dodo ending up in the Tardis for a while, so ehhh.... I still have to laugh about how unceremoniously she was written out of the series. That was a Colin Baker-level move).
The second Doctor and Jamie (and sure, Zoe too) is one of my favorites of all time though. Those two had an extremely convincing friendship, although Jamie on his own wasn't quite so impressive - when they were together it was almost always dynamite.
The fourth Doctor probably had the most homeruns companion wise - especially Sarah Jane (she worked better with Baker than with Pertwee), Leela and Romana 2. Just so much fun.
The only companion after that that (in the classic series) I really like was Tegan. I love her almost complete disinterest in exploring time and space, and her insistence that she has to catch a plane at Heathrow Airport for almost her entire run. Definitely the best part of that little Tardis family at the time.
Not really a fan of Donna myself, but that's mostly because that kind of comedy doesn't really appeal to me. A bit too shouty and obnoxious. I do love me some Wilfred though.
In a sense, Donna starts out in a similar way to Tegan; stumbles into the Tardis with no real intent to join up. I'd also add in Lucie Miller in a similar way. Perhaps it's something that merits use for a more long-term companion?
Yeah, I do appreciate that about her. Especially because, although I liked Rose, I really, really didn't like her love story, and I think they did Martha a great disservice by making her Rose-lite. But as for Donna, it's more her personality and the style of comedy surrounding her that really doesn't resonate with me. Just different tastes is all. I don't think I ever really got over that 'pulling silly faces behind the window'-scene in her first(?) story, although I appreciate that they toned her down a bit in later stories.
I feel like this is very true for a lot of common criticisms towards certain Doctor Who characters/writers.
I may even be guilty of thinking like that myself sometimes.
Sir_Crocodile
Member
You liked Tegan and you didn't like Ace? :/
KuwabaraTheMan
Banned
1/Vicki/Steven are a wonderful team. I wish they had more stories together on TV.
paradox121
Member
I feel like its true for a lot of criticisms about anything ever.
I finally got around to watching The X-Files this year (yes it took me this long), and I really can't stand Chris Carter as a writer. And after sighing and rolling my eyes through another of his episodes I had that unnerving moment of realising I was the Moffat-hater of X-Files.
Difference being I tend to keep it to myself rather than bitching about it on a forum. But thats mainly because its a 20 year old show. Its fun to vent sometimes.
I like Ace, she's definitely better than most of her contemporaries. I just don't really care for a lot of the stories in that era. Most of the stories of the 80s aren't really my thing - and the McCoy era just isn't for me (although I'm doing a second rewatch now (halfway through Tom Baker now), and this rewatch made me change my mind on Pertwee - really love him now - so I might change my mind on McCoy as well. I hope so!)
But you're right, the fact that I didn't like the McCoy episodes had nothing to do with Ace. She was definitely one of the better ones of the 80s.
Sir_Crocodile
Member
Pertwee is so amazing when he goes low key. Like he'll be bombastic about some rubbish or another to an extent that veers on irritating, but then it'll come time to be serious and he stops being cranky and lowers his voice. I love that in his serials.
McCoy has about as abysmal a first season as you could have, but once Cartmel finds his feet, things get dramatically better imo, with the drive to add some much needed mystery back to the doctor, and McCoy took to the new direction like a duck to water.
I mean looking at those last two classic who seasons:
Remembrance of the Daleks
The Happiness Patrol
Silver Nemesis
The Greatest Show in the Galaxy
Battlefield
Ghost Light
The Curse of Fenric
Survival
Every ep there is favourite of mine except Battlefield & Silver Nemesis, and Battlefield still has some good elements - I think one rewrite would have made it a good ep. Nemesis is a clanger though.
Oh, if you're watching via the DVD's, you need to watch the directors cut of Fenric - the original cut has a lot of problems that were fixed. Did you manage to watch the special edition of Day of the Dalek? That was very well done too. Kinda also has some optional CG that turns a scene that was originally rather pathetic into something really quite effective.
I've seen some of the CG enhanced classics (Day of the Daleks and Kinda), both in their original form and the remakes. While the additions are really cool, I still kind of prefer watching the originals first. I prefer knowing how it originally looked, and the original special effects (almost) never bother me too much. I love the charm of them.
For those two stories I just watched the original versions, and after that went back just to watch some of the new CG-scenes to see the difference. It might be worth a try to do it the other way around this time though.
I haven't seen the director's cut of Fenric - did they actually add/rearrange scenes or are you talking about replacing special effects?
I'm keeping an open mind for the 80s episodes when I get there. It'll take a while though, I don't often watch more than 1 episode a day, and life is getting busier again so I had to slow down even more these days. I'm at Image of Fendahl now. Fun fact: Benedict Cumberbatch's mother is in it.
Edit: Forgot to add: I watch most of these stories on VHS. Got a trunk full of them from a friend whose mother used to be a big fan, and I inherited them through him. Somehow makes it extra cozy to watch it that way. I have bought quite a lot of DVD's of my own personal favorites though, and some others whenever I come across a good deal.
Sir_Crocodile
Member
It's a movie-format extended re-edit with a full Dolby Digital 5.1 sound remix. There is five minutes more then the extended VHS edition & 12 minutes more then the original transmission. They actually shot enough to make five full eps, but ultimately decided it flowed better with four for a weekly serial. I think some scenes were also shuffled around to make more sense.
Nick Mallett, who directed the ep, and Mark Ayres, who scored it wrote up a detailed guide of what they wanted to do with the DC, but sadly Mallet died before he had a chance to do so. Ayres then carried out the work based on the notes.
There are also a couple of practical effect replacements where the original effects just didn't work at all (as they were only tested in the workshop, but the entire serial was shot on location, where they failed).
Interesting, I'll keep it in mind. I'll keep my eye out for the DVD-version, although I don't think I'll get there before 2016. Thanks!
Fine Ham Abounds
Member
Ya'll making me want to buy those audiobooks with all this classic Who talk
I really liked Donna. Sometimes I think I'm the only person who thought Martha could have been great but somehow she ended up a damsel in distress and a nonentity a lot. Clara is annoying sometimes, but at least she has a presence.
I really liked Donna. Sometimes I think I'm the only person who thought Martha could have been great but somehow she ended up a damsel in distress and a nonentity a lot. Clara is annoying sometimes, but at least she has a presence.
SpacePirate Ridley
Member
Hahaha, this is definately true.
The girl in our Doctor Who group bitch like that about Clara, sometimes about not really critical things. Things like the way she walks or says x thing. Its funny sometimes but it can get boring pretty fast becuase they dont fucking stop.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
That's what I like about all three of them (Lucie the most, actually) Yeah, they're a little taken aback by what they're caught up in, but at no point are they simply willing to turn over all faith to the Doctor. They work as an audience surrogate there in a very key way: They're straight up saying "Okay, you're supposed to be a big deal, I guess. But that's not going to work on me. If you're awesome, you're gonna have to fuckin' PROVE IT to me."
There's absolutely something to that. I think audiences instinctively pick up on it. This person is making the Doctor work for it.
That's never a bad thing.
Amy used to do this, and then she got ruined (as Rory began doing it instead). I don't know that Clara ever really did it. Martha NEVER did it, even though she was easily the most competent and capable of all the companions of the new run.
I do agree that Moffat is really bad at killing characters off and not bringing them back, but the point of that scene wasn't to make us empathise with the dead extra, it was to show that Missy is still unhinged and not to be trusted, which is something I think it succeeded at.
What I remember about last year's finale was Missy dragging out Osgood's death and then killing her when she was the most scared, and when Danny Pink was killed off unceremoniously in a car accident as a sharp contrast to the big, heroic deaths we're used to in the show. I actually thought that two parter had some deaths that were actually pretty well done. It's just a
shame they're bringing Osgood back and cheapening that part.
Ventilaator
Banned
Absolutely.
I'll take every opportunity to bitch about Moffat, but yes, this is 100% happening for me.
BigTastyBurger666
Banned
Thanks to a friend going to the premiere, I know pretty much all of Ep 1 and 2, and can I just say...
You're onto something here....
APZonerunner
Member
I've never really bought into the idea of Martha as 'Rose Lite' - the Doctor sees her that way (at least initially - by the time he sees her true brilliance, it's too late), but Martha is ultimately quite a different character to Rose, I think. The first ten minutes of Smith & Jones really underscore that, versus the first ten minutes of Rose - Martha is the centre of her family's world. You immediately see she's the mediator trying to parse out arguments between her divorced parents and siblings, all while holding down studies and the shift into a successful, challenging career.
It's so different to Rose; she treats her mother and boyfriend terribly (though there's at least the suggestion Mickey has done his fair share of playing away), she's in a bit of a dead-end job and isn't doing much with her life. The thing about Rose is that she never really stops caring about anything but herself, or later, her life with the Doctor. He's the only one she's ever selfless for, and that's because she loves him.
So... ultimately, Rose is selfish. Rose runs off with the Doctor in front of Mickey, her parting words to him suggesting he's been largely worthless to her ("Thanks // For what? // ...exactly.") - Martha has to be coaxed into the TARDIS, and only actually joins the Doctor when he tells her he can get her back for the very next day so she doesn't miss work or the ongoing family dramas. This is at a base character level, but if you look at this, this thread runs all the way throughout both characters' appearances. Indeed, RTD named Martha in part for Martyr, because that's what she is - for her family, for the Doctor, later for the whole world - and not just in Series 3, but beyond - in Torchwood, and then in Series 4 when she's willing to be the one to have the guilt of destroying the planet, etc.
Martha is a lesser Rose to the Doctor for a long time, and that's sort of the point. He lies to her, he treats her poorly early on, he drops her selfishly into an awful position in Human Nature/The Family of Blood, and so on. In the wake of Rose (who 'fixed' him post War, I guess) he's flawed and vulnerable, and he's so busy mourning her that he can't see what's in front of him. Him seeing her that way is sort of the point; her arc was built that way (like it or not) through the entire season to drive her away, and I think it was written that way as part of the general narrative of the Tenth Doctor as a tragic figure - something which fit Shakespearean David very well. But as a character, no - I don't think she's Rose Lite. She's very different... and I don't think Freema could deliver a very convincing Rose or Billie a very convincing Martha in line with that, also.
Arguably, I think, Amy and Clara are more similar, with their slightly weird on-off cavalier relationship with their real lives, the fulfilment of the sassy-and-bossy archetype, etc.
This needs to be our defecto response to any posts like this in the future now. I love it.
davidcotton
Member
Bit more recent then that, he's done some Bernice Summerfield ones recently as well. Box set called "The Triumph of Sutekh".
Yeah, you make some good points. As I've said before, I haven't seen the Tennant era in years, so I'm not as familiar with the finer details of his stories as I am with some other Doctors. Saying she was Rose-lite was indeed selling her short, but I was mostly basing that on my initial response to her - that I didn't like that so much of her character seemed to be a direct response to the Rose years, as I was really ready for some new ground at that point. We later got that with Donna, but as I've stated above perhaps not entirely to my tastes either.
Still, I really like Freema, I just wish(ed, at the time) that she wasn't used so much as an 'inbetween' companion for two companions who really stood on their own. But I'm more than willing to admit that I might be unfair there. After I'm done with the classic series I'll continue with the RTD era, so I'll see it all again then. I suspect my opinions on a lot of that stuff will change then.
Boy won't those posters feel petty and stupid then!
Ignatz Mouse
Banned
Martha wasn't Rose-lite, but she absolutely was a meta-comment/reaction to Rose, an anti-Rose.
1) She super confident and successful.
2) The Doctor is *not* in love with her, despite her being into him.
I liked her a lot at the time (competence and feistiness is attractive) but looking back, she seems less like I whole character, like Donna, than a reaction to Rose (who herself was somewhat 2 dimensional).
1) She super confident and successful.
2) The Doctor is *not* in love with her, despite her being into him.
I liked her a lot at the time (competence and feistiness is attractive) but looking back, she seems less like I whole character, like Donna, than a reaction to Rose (who herself was somewhat 2 dimensional).
I can agree with this. Martha is still probably my favorite of the RTD companions. She showed actual initiative more often than not. She was intelligent, compassionate and kindhearted. The way the Tenth Doctor treated her was a bad look and really was the beginning of my falling out of love with that version of the character as he spiraled ever further downward into a whirlpool of self-importance and wangst. She was a character I would've liked to have seen getting more of a chance to show what she is rather than simply being defined by what she isn't.
Also, in the discussion of 7th Doctor Serials, Curse of Fenric is kind of brilliant, really. Remembrance of the Daleks isn't half bad either (despite having the most obnoxious of Dalek voices) Ghostlight though? I was into it for the first half, but once the actual alien stuff starts kicking in that serial goes completely batshit insane. Some of those scenes are so sharp and I could totally see a story like it working for the Twelfth Doctor. Specifically the part where the Doctor takes a companion to a distressing place from their past to force them to confront their inner demons. I could definitely see the Twelfth Doctor pulling that sort of shit. And it could be outstanding. Ghostlight just trips all over itself in the second half though. Everything I liked about it seemed lost by the end. The best Seventh Doctor episodes are Ace-focused episodes though. Ace is easily one of the best things about the Cartmel era.
ClivePwned
Member
The McCoy era in Gifs
Mel- ugh!
McCoy's First Season
Sylvester McCoy
Remembrance of the Daleks
Ace
but overall
I saw these when they were first broadcast so I my opinion is generally formed on the televised versions. First seasons was trash, but I do find Delta and Dragonfire entertaining, if not that great. Remembrance of the Daleks is near perfect. When I first saw that, I had hope that they'd finally got back to where it was before the 1985 'hiatus' but the subsequent stories were either slight or really, really badly edited, both in terms of script and post-production. Silver Nemesis, Ghost Light, Battlefield and Curse of Fenric as broadcast all had this rushed, disjointed feeling because lots of filmed content had been cut in order to fit the timeslot (this is where the script editor failed because that's their job- to edit the scripts so they will work in with the parameters of budget, time and required episode length). The DVD's have better versions of some of these that make the stories work a little better (Fenric in particular) though they didn't release the extended version of Silver Nemesis on DVD that the BBC had previously released on VHS.
Ace was a fantastic companion that really set the tone for Nu Who companions like Rose in particular. Also, Ace blowing shit up was always fun. Sophie Aldred made a good role great. McCoy himself is likeable but the excessive pantomime clowning of the first season is totally jarring with the subtler, slightly darker Doctor of the latter seasons. That approach was more interesting, but McCoy, lacking the dramatic acting chops, rarely pulls it off.
I love the classic show, but when I get to the McCoy era, i just appreciated RTD's (and Moffat's) work that much more.
Mel- ugh!
McCoy's First Season
Sylvester McCoy
Remembrance of the Daleks
Ace
but overall
I saw these when they were first broadcast so I my opinion is generally formed on the televised versions. First seasons was trash, but I do find Delta and Dragonfire entertaining, if not that great. Remembrance of the Daleks is near perfect. When I first saw that, I had hope that they'd finally got back to where it was before the 1985 'hiatus' but the subsequent stories were either slight or really, really badly edited, both in terms of script and post-production. Silver Nemesis, Ghost Light, Battlefield and Curse of Fenric as broadcast all had this rushed, disjointed feeling because lots of filmed content had been cut in order to fit the timeslot (this is where the script editor failed because that's their job- to edit the scripts so they will work in with the parameters of budget, time and required episode length). The DVD's have better versions of some of these that make the stories work a little better (Fenric in particular) though they didn't release the extended version of Silver Nemesis on DVD that the BBC had previously released on VHS.
Ace was a fantastic companion that really set the tone for Nu Who companions like Rose in particular. Also, Ace blowing shit up was always fun. Sophie Aldred made a good role great. McCoy himself is likeable but the excessive pantomime clowning of the first season is totally jarring with the subtler, slightly darker Doctor of the latter seasons. That approach was more interesting, but McCoy, lacking the dramatic acting chops, rarely pulls it off.
I love the classic show, but when I get to the McCoy era, i just appreciated RTD's (and Moffat's) work that much more.
The Giant
Banned
This sums up all the Moffat haters.
The thing I'm kind of annoyed about with this most recent premiere is that it feels like Moffat has had The Doctor realize multiple times that he's not this big authority but instead just needs to be this madcap wanderer (erasing himself because he's become too big, the finale for series 8 ending with the 'I'm not a good man, I'm not a bad man, I'm a madman with a box' bit) and then it goes right back into stories all about him being the huge focal point/impetus/etc instead of the wrench/spanner in the works. Putting aside the fact that we're having another 'last day/death' so soon to the last time this happened, it does feel like the record skipping a little bit.
This has been bothering me, too.
I'm also hoping with this season that we can see Clara as a "real" companion, especially since she's leaving the show soon. When she came in with 11 it was all about the mystery of "The Impossible Girl," and season 8 was all wrapped up with the whole Danny Pink thing. I just want to see Clara in the TARDIS having a good time with the Doctor.
tonysidaway
Member
The last series of Doctor Who will be difficult to beat. Peter Capaldi quickly established himself in the role and then it was a huge romp. I'll miss Jenna. There should be more Michelle Gomez, whose scenery-eating I still love to watch in old episodes of Green Wing.
So, Moffat, surprise me. You always do.
So, Moffat, surprise me. You always do.
APZonerunner
Member
Yeah, it's actually alright. I was vaguely concerned when I heard it was going to be used, but when I heard the context I was A-OK with it.
peanutbutterlatte
Member
Was it ever going to be anything else apart from Missy saying "the bitch is back" or something to that effect?
APZonerunner
Member
RTD seems to be back on the scene with the BBC Drama scene a lot more this last year (which I think is a prelude to him inevitably returning to Doctor Who at some point), but he's in the Radio Times now warning about what he thinks is the now near-inevitably death of the BBC:
It's probably going to be a grim decade for a lot of the TV I love, including Who. =/
http://www.radiotimes.com/news/2015...former-doctor-who-showrunner-russell-t-davies
It's probably going to be a grim decade for a lot of the TV I love, including Who. =/
I caught a fall/winter-trailer for what the BBC has planned when my girlfriend was watching Bake Off this week, and it seemed to me they're going big with their drama, including a lot of classic literature/shakespeare adaptions. For now they seem to be making a lot of effort to prove their worth. Hopefully it'll have an effect.
I think Who might be safer than a lot of other programs, with BBC America being really keen to keep that going (although there's always the possibility of a sparser year of specials if those rumours are true - if the BBC is going to be hit as bad as some people expect). The real risk is losing a lot of other quality programs that just wouldn't get made at other networks.
Here's a really good speech by Armando Iannucci on the value of the BBC: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hyJFZgK__j0
Even though it's an hour long, it's well worth watching (and pretty funny).
He talks about the way people going after the BBC right now are following gut feelings rather than listening to facts (such as one criticism based on the lack of value/quality of the BBC website, even though it's number 60 in the top 100 websites of the world, and the only British website on that entire list, and other facts like the jobs it creates, especially because Hollywood increasingly depends on talent in all sectors coming from the BBC), and the lack of thought behind statements like the BBC being too populist. He can explain it a lot better and funnier than I ever could, so it's all behind that link above.
The big upside of all this is that the BBC simply has the facts and statistics on their side. Although, sadly, that doesn't really seem to matter.
peanutbutterlatte
Member
Well we got probably the best adaptation of Inspector Calls the other week from BBC. I wouldn't mind David Thewlis as the 13th Doctor actually..
peanutbutterlatte
Member
Fantastic was just looking for this. Hello new phone wallpaper
Ignatz Mouse
Banned
I wouldn't call myself a hater, but this irks me if only because most of the Moffat criticisms are pretty specific and thought out, and this meme refers more to random hate of innocuous things.
bishopcruz
Member
Yeah, despite my issues with the series in the last few years, Moffat is still one of my favorite writers on NuWho. S5 is probably my favorite season. I just feel that his work as showrunner hasn't really been up to snuff lately. He is just too self indulgent at this point.
A little late, but having seen episode 1 a couple of days ago:
The Magician's Apprentice is kinda a perfect microcosm of what I both love and hate about Moffat, some absolutely amazing scenes followed up by just mood killing inanity. I mean the stinger was possibly one of the best stingers in the show's history, creepy, interesting, and the reveal at the end was amazing. After that we get a whole lot of nothing for what felt like most of the episode, and by the time we made it to Davros, all the tension was drained from the premise. I WANT to love the episode, but I can't. Between the pointless UNIT stuff, the bizarre relationship stuff with Missy, and the least tense Dalek scene since WWII, the whole thing just feels like wasted potential. I hope part 2 makes up for it. I mean the premise is amazing.
peanutbutterlatte
Member
So apparently we get
some sort of 1st & 4th Doctor flashback. There was a part of the trailer in black and white, Doctor crossing his own path again?