• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

Doctor Who Series 9 |OT| Let Zygons Be Zygons

Boem

Member
It's possible, but it'd be odd to run through another "the Doctor is going to be killed by something" storyline so soon after the last one.

I agree, but both stories of this season so far had the Doctor being convinced he was going to die (by visiting Davros, and because of his ghost showing up).

Not a fan of it myself, but what can you do. I don't think about it too much - it's a bit of dread that works for the kids watching.
 

Maddocks

Member
In Time of the Doctor he says,"a whole new regeneration cycle" when talking about his regeneration to Clara and why he was young again.
 

Magwik

Banned
In Time of the Doctor he says,"a whole new regeneration cycle" when talking about his regeneration to Clara and why he was young again.
Yeah but at the same time why would he be so fearful of death? 12 isn't nearly as vain as 10 was, and he has a whole new cycle to go trough, so I wonder what gives. What if Rasallion was just a dick and only gave the Doctor one regeneration.
 

Maddocks

Member
Yeah but at the same time why would he be so fearful of death? 12 isn't nearly as vain as 10 was, and he has a whole new cycle to go trough, so I wonder what gives. What if Rasallion was just a dick and only gave the Doctor one regeneration.

Because he has feared death since 4 knocks. Honestly it is getting boring with the threat always being he is going to die. Have someone else death be on the line for once.
 

Ophelion

Member
I'm positive the Time Lords explicitly provided an entirely new set of regenerations. The whole point seemed to be to tie up that bit of regeneration limit continuity early so that the showrunners wouldn't have to come up with a fresh "out" for every new Doctor for awhile.

The 11th Doctor was quite explicit that it was a whole new regeneration cycle.

However, the 12th Doctor in season 8 commented in Kill the Moon that because of how he got his extra 1ups, he's not even sure if he can run out now. He says that he might "...just go on regenerating forever." Probably a line added that they can point to just so they don't have to do this song and dance all over again in a few decades...unless they want to, of course, and then we will.
 

Fuu

Formerly Alaluef (not Aladuf)
If the Doctor's death is the season arc again it will be hard to argue against the notion of creative bankruptcy. I wish it wasn't even brought up in the season opener, but hopefully it's resolved soon and/or it's subverted somehow.
 

Razmos

Member
RebeccaRoot4Doctor
9085096-high--600x337.jpg

~Photoshops TARDIS into the background~
I can kinda see it, she's a good actress and I love her voice. I can't see it happening though because a female Doctor is already a hard pill to swallow for some people, a female trans Doctor would have parts of the fanbase foaming at the mouth.

Still, it's a cute idea to imagine certain actors in the role. Though I think the Doctor is fine as-is for now. The companion formula could do with a shakeup though. death4Clara
BringBackBennett
 

Magwik

Banned
RebeccaRoot4Doctor

I can kinda see it, she's a good actress and I love her voice. I can't see it happening though because a female Doctor is already a hard pill to swallow for some people, a female trans Doctor would have parts of the fanbase foaming at the mouth.

Still, it's a cute idea to imagine certain actors in the role. Though I think the Doctor is fine as-is for now. The companion formula could do with a shakeup though. death4Clara
BringBackBennett
We need to campaign to get Barrowman to guest star again first
 

Quick

Banned
Because it will be this, then Doctor Who Adult Mindfulness Colouring In Weekly Magazine, then adult colouring in will smother everything you love and destroy all your hopes and dreams, that's why.

You've clearly not seen the extent of Doctor Who merchandising if a colouring book triggers you.
 

Dalek

Member
Because it will be this, then Doctor Who Adult Mindfulness Colouring In Weekly Magazine, then adult colouring in will smother everything you love and destroy all your hopes and dreams, that's why.

Uh-this is nothing. Have you seen the sheer flood of Doctor Who merchandise out there? Why is this anything?
 

OmegaFax

Member
Regeneration. I caught that line too about him saying it was a "clerical error". It's really hard to tell whether it's a one off comment or something they'll revisit (like why he has that face, etc). The line contradicts what he said to Davros two episodes later when he's using his regeneration energy to disrupt the sewers ... something to the effect that he'll be missing an arm or a leg down the road in a future regeneration. Lastly, as to the Doctor's ghost. It's possible the Fisher King shot and killed him to the point he couldn't regenerate thus turning into a ghost as Capaldi Doctor.
 

Ephidel

Member
On the topic of people shooting, Missy suggested that killing someone with regenerations left was doable if you did it fast enough when she told Clara to bring Snipers. Of course, that assumes you can take anything Missy says seriously.
Three for each heart and two for my brain stem. You'll have to switch me off fast before I can regenerate.
 

Bluth54

Member
On the topic of people shooting, Missy suggested that killing someone with regenerations left was doable if you did it fast enough when she told Clara to bring Snipers. Of course, that assumes you can take anything Missy says seriously.

We already know it's possible to kill a timelord without them regenerating, we saw it happen to the Doctor in Turn Left.
 

Trike

Member
Regeneration. I caught that line too about him saying it was a "clerical error". It's really hard to tell whether it's a one off comment or something they'll revisit (like why he has that face, etc). The line contradicts what he said to Davros two episodes later when he's using his regeneration energy to disrupt the sewers ... something to the effect that he'll be missing an arm or a leg down the road in a future regeneration. Lastly, as to the Doctor's ghost. It's possible the Fisher King shot and killed him to the point he couldn't regenerate thus turning into a ghost as Capaldi Doctor.

I think you are looking too much into that line. It is just a reference to him getting extra regenerations when he was supposed to have run out as the 11th.

On the topic of people shooting, Missy suggested that killing someone with regenerations left was doable if you did it fast enough when she told Clara to bring Snipers. Of course, that assumes you can take anything Missy says seriously.

There was also series 7 where that happened in the first episode. Or the variety of times when the Doctor's life was in danger. He is not immortal. A Dalek could easily kill the Doctor with one shot. iirc, most time lords don't regenerate because they are in a near-death state anyway, that is just something the Doctor usually does to not waste them. That is why he always has regeneration trauma.
 
Lot of doubles about this season: Two Davros' in the first episode and two Doctors in the second, and two parters, obviously. Interestingly the doubles are imperfect: Davros as a child is much, much different from his adult self and the Doctor's ghost double equally so. No idea if that's a thing they're doing on purpose but it is a thing I noticed.
 
On the topic of people shooting, Missy suggested that killing someone with regenerations left was doable if you did it fast enough when she told Clara to bring Snipers. Of course, that assumes you can take anything Missy says seriously.

Killing Time Lords isn't hard, no. 10 drowned in Turn Left, after all. No reason to believe Missy was lying about that - the lie would be that she'd let them pull it off.
 

Symphonia

Banned
I think that the Doctors death or at least part of It means he has to face the time lords or return to Gallifrey for some reason. Especially with all of these mentions of death yet no regeneration mention. Just my speculation.
He used all - or at least a large amount - of his regeneration energy to help Davros in the first two-parter. He may have no regenerations left or, at the very least, only one. With his life (presumably) coming to an end, I think the Doctor visits Gallifrey or the Time Lords to either repent (which links in with the confession dial) or to see if they can extend his life further, akin to Time Of The Doctor.
 

Boem

Member
Good news: John Hurt's been given the all-clear by his doctors on the pancreatic cancer front.

Very good news. He seemed extremely happy in the news article I read about this. Amazing how quickly (4 months since diagnosis I think) they can cure people these days.


EDIT: About finding Gallifrey: I know the number 1 rule is that Moffat lies, but I do believe that Gallifrey being missing is still going to be a long-term (vague) goal for the show, just like the Doctor trying not to go back was the vague reason for his travels in the classic show. Moffat's reason was simple but true: when Gallifrey became a frequent location for adventures in the classic series (which outside of some earlier 2nd/3rd doctor adventures started mostly with Tomb Baker) it took away a lot of the mystery behind the Doctor, and Gallifrey turned out to be a fairly boring place filled with boring people.

I don't think he'll find Gallifrey in the finale this season. Not in a way that allows Gallifrey to stick around in any case. There might be storylines that tie into his search though (like the Master misleading the Doctor about where to find it last season). I can see him running into other Timelords besides the Master in his search though, either someone new or someone like Romana or Susan.

re: regenerations - thanks for the Matt Smith quote, didn't remember his exact words. It seems he did get a full set of regenerations, but I do like the idea of the Doctor not knowing exactly how many he has left (although we as viewers know it's endless as long as they keep making the show - it'll never get a definitive ending). I figure Moffat left that ambiguous for a lead writer in the far future to play with if he wants.

Semi-relevant to his regenerations: The Valeyard. Something that could of course easily be ignored for future storylines, but it's fun to speculate, and the Great Intelligence mentioned the Valeyard as 'one of the names' the Doctor will be known by in the future in a Matt Smith episode. A reminder, shamelessly stolen from the DW wiki:

The Valeyard was, according to the Master, "an amalgamation of the darker side of the Doctor's nature", taken from somewhere between his "twelfth and final incarnations".

So that raises some question. It's incarnation, not regeneration, so Hartnell counts. John Hurt counts. Tennant 2 (the one who went with Rose) probably doesn't, as he's not exactly the same person, although that's debatable. So by that logic Capaldi is the 13th incarnation (12th regeneration - 14th incarnation and 13th incarnation if you count Tennant 2, but like I said, I don't). That suggests Capaldi counts as the final incarnation (although we know he won't be, but it would explain his suspicions that he might die for real if he dies now), and that the Valeyard was created when Smith regenerated into Capaldi. So he could turn up somewhere in his run, possibly in relation to a certain Roman and British PM looking exactly like Capaldi.

Also, just as a reminder, according to The Deadly Assassin (and repeated in a couple of stories after that), the Doctor had 13 possible lives, which meant that he could regenerate 12 times, but that he wasted one of them by creating Tennant 2 so that meant that Smith was, according to those rules, the last version of the Doctor. I don't think that changes anything about the Valeyard though, as Tennant 2 is a different, separate person, not an incarnation of the Doctor.

All this stuff about the Valeyard obviously comes from an old, deliberately vague story written by writers who never had to bother with that actual later storyline, and it's something that might never be addressed again. Even if it is, the 'rules' are easy to bend to fit whatever explanation might work.

This was a confusing post to write while sleep-deprived. Sorry if it's unreadable.
 

Magwik

Banned
If they want to do Valeyard ever again just write it off as saying he was created as a by-product of two separate regeneration cycles (11-12) or something like he was created from the regeneration energy that 11 shot fucking everywhere in Time of the Doctor
 

Yagharek

Member
I thought it was a little less complicated than that.

This series we have had in the first 2-parter: Doctor goes back in time to plant a thought in the mind of Davros - a single word - that would save Clara's life.

In the second two-parter: Doctor goes back in time to plant a series of words that would serve as a guide to help them out of the present day quandary. And save Clara's life.

The theme is pretty much one of ontological paradoxes (spelt out explicitly in episode 4).

So I assume that it is all but given that Capaldi's Doctor is going to address the reason why he chose that face (as per the second episode of the previous series where he gives his ultimatum to the android).
 

Htown

STOP SHITTING ON MY MOTHER'S HEADSTONE
That suggests Capaldi counts as the final incarnation (although we know he won't be, but it would explain his suspicions that he might die for real if he dies now), and that the Valeyard was created when Smith regenerated into Capaldi.

why would you think that?
 
The next episode looks terrible. Not into Vikings at all. Then again I thought the last two episodes would be bad but I quite enjoyed them.

The whole doctor dying thing needs to stop. As soon as it's mentioned you just know he isn't really gonna die.

Only thing I'm looking forward to is Maisie Williams appearance, more awesome Capaldi and hopefully Clara leaving.
 

Boem

Member
why would you think that?

Well, if the Valeyard was created 'between his 12th and final incarnations' that suggests 'between Smith and Capaldi', although they wrote that with the earlier established regeneration limit in mind - and according to the regeneration limit conversations in Matt's final episode Tennant 2 counted, so that's where it gets a bit fuzzy. The count also differs depending on if you count Tennant 2 as an incarnation of the Doctor or not - I don't think so, I think of him as a seperate person that the Doctor wasted an entire regeneration's worth of energy on to create him. Also, given that the Doctor will keep regenerating as long as the show has an audience, his 'final' incarnation might very well be Doctor #413, which means that the Valeyard could be created at any point from Matt Smith's regeneration onwards.

Like I said, the rules are very vague and can be interpreted in a lot of ways. And that's assuming they would do anything with the Valeyard at all. I don't think the Great Intelligence mentioning the Valeyard in that Matt Smith episode was anything more than Moffat giving a little shout out to the fans - I doubt he has a big plan there.
 

Htown

STOP SHITTING ON MY MOTHER'S HEADSTONE
to me "between 12th and final" just means after 12 and before whenever there is no Doctor anymore.
 

Symphonia

Banned
I always thought the Valeyard would occur if/when the Doctor goes on a downward spiral into madness, desperation, and despair. There was a movie (or TV show) I saw a while ago where the main character was led down a dark path. It initially started as just a split personality, but his evil side eventually split from his body and took its own form.
 
Well, if the Valeyard was created 'between his 12th and final incarnations' that suggests 'between Smith and Capaldi', although they wrote that with the earlier established regeneration limit in mind - and according to the regeneration limit conversations in Matt's final episode Tennant 2 counted, so that's where it gets a bit fuzzy. The count also differs depending on if you count Tennant 2 as an incarnation of the Doctor or not - I don't think so, I think of him as a seperate person that the Doctor wasted an entire regeneration's worth of energy on to create him. Also, given that the Doctor will keep regenerating as long as the show has an audience, his 'final' incarnation might very well be Doctor #413, which means that the Valeyard could be created at any point from Matt Smith's regeneration onwards.

Like I said, the rules are very vague and can be interpreted in a lot of ways. And that's assuming they would do anything with the Valeyard at all. I don't think the Great Intelligence mentioning the Valeyard in that Matt Smith episode was anything more than Moffat giving a little shout out to the fans - I doubt he has a big plan there.

In my head canon I like to think that bending timelines changed the series of events, and the closest thing we got to the Yaleyard - before the final incarnation, then - is the metacrisis Doctor, who does promptly commit genocide.
 

Philippo

Member
Great episode, although the whole words written on the wall seemed a bit too complicated and yes i agree the "Doctor's going to die" plot has lost any interest.

Capaldi breaking the 4th wall is amazing, he's now so confident it always looks like he's conducting some kind of TV documentary like Morgan Freeman.

Also, he should really ditch the current look and go back to the full suit of last year's.
 

Htown

STOP SHITTING ON MY MOTHER'S HEADSTONE
I'm sorry, are we pretending that every Doctor Who episode in the history of time hasn't done the "oh no is the Doctor going to die?" thing?

Because I'm pretty sure he has been in mortal danger in 98 percent of all Doctor Who stories.
 

odiin

My Apartment, or the 120 Screenings of Salo
I'm sorry, are we pretending that every Doctor Who episode in the history of time hasn't done the "oh no is the Doctor going to die?" thing?

Because I'm pretty sure he has been in mortal danger in 98 percent of all Doctor Who stories.

Historically? No.
 

VegiHam

Member
I'm sorry, are we pretending that every Doctor Who episode in the history of time hasn't done the "oh no is the Doctor going to die?" thing?

Because I'm pretty sure he has been in mortal danger in 98 percent of all Doctor Who stories.

There's a difference between being in danger and "I know that I am destined to die because timey-wimey spoilers" though.

The latter wasn't really a thing until lately and now they keep using it over and over.
 

takriel

Member
We already know that the Doctor's not going to die in a random episode that is not a finale or a special, so... the fuck are you doing, Moffat?
 

tomtom94

Member
It does bear mentioning that the death of the Doctor was a plot point in the series 5 finale, obviously series 6, and then both Name and Time of the Doctor. That's not including monster-of-the-week episodes either. I do think people have a point when they say it's been done to death (pun fully intended) in recent years.

It reminds me of what some people say about Joss Whedon, that he doesn't know how to carry a plot without killing someone off.
 
Top Bottom