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[Ignatz Mouse]

Here's a positive review of the episode, which I think does a good job pointing out the good ideas I allude to above, although I think they got lost in the poor storytelling: http://www.flickfilosopher.com/2015/11/doctor-who-blogging-the-zygon-invasion.html

The Zygons as allegory for the immigrant situation in the UK is quite compelling and seems obviously intentional, with the bits about the Doctor talking about the radicalized minority of the minority. But like I said, lost in the muddle.

 

[Real Hero]

The Zygons as allegory for the immigrant situation in the UK is quite compelling and seems obviously intentional, with the bits about the Doctor talking about the radicalized minority of the minority. But like I said, lost in the muddle.

I don't think that was lost at all

 

[Ignatz Mouse]

I don't think that was lost at all

I was too distracted by trying to follow the story to appreciate it, even if I noticed it.

Aside: I can't be the only one who really hate the "President of Earth" thing, can I? I get that UNIT trusts the Doctor absolutely, but I hate that he has that much visibility, power and control.

 

[DECK'ARD]

Here's a positive review of the episode, which I think does a good job pointing out the good ideas I allude to above, although I think they got lost in the poor storytelling: http://www.flickfilosopher.com/2015/11/doctor-who-blogging-the-zygon-invasion.html

The Zygons as allegory for the immigrant situation in the UK is quite compelling and seems obviously intentional, with the bits about the Doctor talking about the radicalized minority of the minority. But like I said, lost in the muddle.

You're speaking like it was subtle. It couldn't have been any more heavy-handed about it, and that level of clumsiness just extended to the writing in general.

 

[Ophelion]

Aside: I can't be the only one who really hate the "President of Earth" thing, can I? I get that UNIT trusts the Doctor absolutely, but I hate that he has that much visibility, power and control.

I kind of assumed it was mostly an in-joke between them at this point.

If I was Kate, the very first thing I would do is revoke all his President of Earth powers the moment the crisis ended. You can't trust that lunatic with the planet for extended periods of time. He barely even knows what money is, can you imagine the global chaos he could inflict in the long term by accident alone?

 

[tomtom94]

I kind of assumed it was mostly an in-joke between them at this point.

If I was Kate, the very first thing I would do is revoke all his President of Earth powers the moment the crisis ended. You can't trust that lunatic with the planet for extended periods of time. He barely even knows what money is, can you imagine the global chaos he could inflict in the long term by accident alone?

Well there's a second part yet to come...

 

[Exterminieren]

Yeah, I'm calling it- the Doctor we see from the point he meets up with UNIT is a Zygon- one of the "good" ones, rather than one of the radicals.

There's far too much third-person and slightly out of character moments in the back end of the episode for something not to be up.

 

[Ignatz Mouse]

You're speaking like it was subtle. It couldn't have been any more heavy-handed about it, and that level of clumsiness just extended to the writing in general.

I didn't mean that it was subtle *or* was well-handled. I meant that in the mess of the episode, the point turned into a throwaway that could have a) been handled better and b) is worth exploring. Instead, a good idea got inserted ham-handedly.

This episode is awash in good ideas-- too many of them in fact-- and hence none come off well.

- Parallels with immigrants/Muslims
- Split nature of the Zygon population
- Osgood "sisters" solidarity, one carrying on after another dies
- Manipulation of people by imitating loved ones (which really would have been better left out, how badly it was handled and requiring changing Zygon continuity as far as I can tell)
- Doctor trying to diffuse escalating tensions
- Invasion which has been ongoing for some time underground (literally and figuratively)
- War started by prejudice and fear of a child (I liked this touch a lot)
- Evil turncoat in disguise

Even though this is a two-parter, it felt like they should have jettisoned half of these things and cleaned up the other half. These are all potentially interesting, but not when they're all competing with each other *and* a poorly edited episode with a bit too much cheap drama.

 

[Fuu]

You're speaking like it was subtle. It couldn't have been any more heavy-handed about it, and that level of clumsiness just extended to the writing in general.

The immigration parallel in this episode was similar to the abortion stuff in Kill the Moon - clumsy and in-your-face. Peter Harness should try to steer away from including this kind of allegory in his writing, it's definitely not his forte.

 

[Ignatz Mouse]

While I think this is easily the worst episode of this season, we're thankfully nowhere near Kill the Moon/Forest level... yet.

It really depends on how part 2 goes.

 

[SictorVullivan]

This episode lost me 40 minutes of my life and I want it back :3

Just a terrible episode overall. Only redeeming part was sexy evil Clara.

 

[tonysidaway]

You can't trust that lunatic with the planet for extended periods of time. He barely even knows what money is

You say that like it's a bad thing.

 

[acheron_xl]

I don't think it was terrible. Of course, a ton depends on the 2nd part.

Soldier scene went on way too long. I didn't buy the actress running the drone who copped out either. Evil Clara is pretty solid, and makes me sad that it doesn't look like she'll do the full heel-turn for real, like I hoped she would.

 

[Fuu]

While I think this is easily the worst episode of this season, we're thankfully nowhere near Kill the Moon/Forest level... yet.

It really depends on how part 2 goes.

I'll be legit shook if we even approach Forest of the Night levels again, unless they have Boyce writing again. As far as Twelfth Doctor episodes go that one is the only one I consider an irredeemable turd, aside from some decent looking set pieces. I enjoyed all the other Capaldi episodes on some level except that one.

 

[Ignatz Mouse]

I'll be legit shook if we even approach Forest of the Night levels again, unless they have Boyce writing again. As far as Twelfth Doctor episodes go that one is the only one I consider an irredeemable turd, aside from some decent looking set pieces. I enjoyed all the other Capaldi episodes on some level except that one.

Agreed. Moon was the worst last season until Forest showed what really, really bad Who looks like.

Moon had redeeming qualities, Forest did not.

 

[tonysidaway]

What problem did so many here have with In the Forest of the Night? I get that part of it related to the return of Annabel, but I don't see why it's a problem.

The reason why the question occurs to me now is that I think the quite negative reaction to The Zygon Invasion here may be for related reasons.

 

[Guri]

Agreed. Moon was the worst last season until Forest showed what really, really bad Who looks like.

Moon had redeeming qualities, Forest did not.

The Moon episode isn't real. It never existed.

 

[tonysidaway]

Also, is the soldier scene the one I'm thinking of, with his mother apparently pleading with him? I thought that really worked well. I got the sense from this, and from the drone scene earlier, that there was a Derren Brown-like hypnotic quality to the way the Zygons manipulated people's thoughts. In Doctor Who, telepathy is taken for granted, and the Zygons sometimes have something even more powerful even than that.

In all, I find the body design and acting style for the Zygons unconvincing and almost clownish, but scenes like those make their powers genuinely frightening. It's similar to what Moffat did to the Angels during Matt's stint as Doctor Who. A turn of the screw and suddenly they're frightening again.

 

[Darth Pinche]

My only take away so far is that people are freaking out that TorC actually exists. And that amuses me as a New Mexican.

It won 5 bucks off my wife since she didn't believe it actually existed.

 

[MrBadger]

Agreed. Moon was the worst last season until Forest showed what really, really bad Who looks like.

Moon had redeeming qualities, Forest did not.

Yeah, Moon had plenty of redeeming qualities. The central conflict of the episode was stupid as shit, but it had some great visuals and it opened pretty strongly. Forest really has nothing going for it at all.

What problem did so many here have with In the Forest of the Night? I get that part of it related to the return of Annabel, but I don't see why it's a problem.

The reason why the question occurs to me now is that I think the quite negative reaction to The Zygon Invasion here may be for related reasons.

I didn't like Forest because it felt more like an episode of a children's show with all the child actors, the sets were unconvincing and the conflict and resolve just involved the characters doing nothing and forgetting about all the events. It was just a nothing episode.

 

[BrokenFiction]

Moon would have worked on any other planet in the galaxy except this one. I can't suspend even the tiniest disbelief on our moon. An alien moon, though? Totally plausible for me. *shrug*

 

[Ignatz Mouse]

What problem did so many here have with In the Forest of the Night? I get that part of it related to the return of Annabel, but I don't see why it's a problem.

The reason why the question occurs to me now is that I think the quite negative reaction to The Zygon Invasion here may be for related reasons.

Several things, including:

- Meandering around doing nothing
- The Doctor willing to let kids die just because their parents are going to die
- The nonsensical resolution about solar flares, trees, and everyone "just forgetting" about it.

And that's just the top three. Pretty sure they also implied that kids going off their meds was a good idea, too.

 

[Exterminieren]

Also, is the soldier scene the one I'm thinking of, with his mother apparently pleading with him? I thought that really worked well. I got the sense from this, and from the drone scene earlier, that there was a Derren Brown-like hypnotic quality to the way the Zygons manipulated people's thoughts. In Doctor Who, telepathy is taken for granted, and the Zygons sometimes have something even more powerful even than that.

In all, I find the body design and acting style for the Zygons unconvincing and almost clownish, but scenes like those make their powers genuinely frightening. It's similar to what Moffat did to the Angels during Matt's stint as Doctor Who. A turn of the screw and suddenly they're frightening again.

I agree. I have no idea where the hatred of this scene is coming from.

A lot of people don't seem to be OK with UNIT being anything other than remorseless killers, which really doesn't sync up with how the organisation has ever been presented.

 

[Broken Joystick]

I agree. I have no idea where the hatred of this scene is coming from.

A lot of people don't seem to be OK with UNIT being anything other than remorseless killers, which really doesn't sync up with how the organisation has ever been presented.

Well they're told right beforehand that they can't trust what they'll see at the Church.
And then the "mum" appears.
And the commander woman is telling him "that's not your mum, it's the alien, you know, the one that we need to stop or the planet is fucked".
And he's like "well, what if it IS my mum?" And asks her a question, to which she doesn't answer.
Then he decides to ignore the commander woman.
And then everyone else follows in too? Why?
And they all die without firing a bullet.

It just seemed that everyone in UNIT suddenly turned into idiots.

 

[Ignatz Mouse]

It reads like a first draft.

Sure, the idea that it would be difficult, even impossible to shoot your mother is a powerful one, even if you have a shred of doubt.

The idea that the soldiers around you wouldn't relieve you of that doubt is inane.

The idea that you would follow that "mother" into a likely trap is beyond inane.

The fact that nobody could manage to stop them is icing on top of that.




The scene could have been made to work, but really just did not the way it was played.

 

[Broken Joystick]

It reads like a first draft.

Sure, the idea that it would be difficult, even impossible to shoot your mother is a powerful one, even if you have a shred of doubt.

The idea that the soldiers around you wouldn't relieve you of that doubt is inane.

The idea that you would follow that "mother" into a likely trap is beyond inane.

The fact that nobody could manage to stop them is icing on top of that.

The scene could have been made to work, but really just did not the way it was played.

Yes to the bolded.
I like the idea, I just thought the execution was absolutely terrible.

 

[M.Bluth]

It reads like a first draft.

Sure, the idea that it would be difficult, even impossible to shoot your mother is a powerful one, even if you have a shred of doubt.

The idea that the soldiers around you wouldn't relieve you of that doubt is inane.

The idea that you would follow that "mother" into a likely trap is beyond inane.

The fact that nobody could manage to stop them is icing on top of that.




The scene could have been made to work, but really just did not the way it was played.

It would've been fixed very easily.
As the rest of the Zygons emerge from the church disguised as loved ones, the soldiers hesitate or can't bring themselves to shoot, or whatever, the Zygons take advantage of the moment and vaporize them on the spot instead of having them follow them into the church.

Which makes me wonder if they just didn't have the budget for the effects of such a scenario, but even then, they could easily handle it with a cut to the Doctor and Rebecca Front reacting to the sound exactly like they did after they went into the church.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

They don't even need to have the scene at all, though. The result of the scene is the Doctor going in and getting Osgood after all the Zygons have mysteriously disappeared, leaving behind piles of electric hair. You don't even need a confrontation at the church to get there. You just need the Doctor. Which is why it seems like it would have been better to have the Doctor zip over there on his own as a means to broker peace (that isn't going to come because the Zygons have already bailed, having drawn UNIT away, which was mostly the purpose of their being there) which a) gives him agency b) doesn't make him behave out of character c) adds a little bit mystery to the proceedings.

 

[Fine Ham Abounds]

I'm trying to get caught up on the season here. Still watching part 5, which I thought was in general a clever way to, well, follow episode 4 to a natural end and sort of make up for it.

That Beast monster though. Just when I thought it couldn't get any stupider, it breathes fire. I mean cmon.

 

[bengraven]

20 minutes into Zygon and chill and she gives you this look

Was just coming in here to say "Evil Clara is goooooodddammmmn".

 

[Blader]

I hope this series really turns it around now that we're in the back half, because so far the Davros two-parter has been the only high point of S9.

 

[Fine Ham Abounds]

Obviously I wasn't paying attention at some point, I thought Missy vaporized Osgood...

 

[Razmos]

Obviously I wasn't paying attention at some point, I thought Missy vaporized Osgood...

Yes?

This episode made it abundantly clear that there are 2 Osgoods, which we already knew from the 50th special.

 

[Blader]

Obviously I wasn't paying attention at some point, I thought Missy vaporized Osgood...

There was a Zygon in the 50th that copied Osgood (which is shown in this episode's recap). Of the two Osgoods, one was killed by Missy in last year's finale. The other surviving one is the Osgood we see in this ep.

 

[Rymuth]

Boring episode. My eyes glazed over during the last 20 minutes...

 

[Fine Ham Abounds]

There was a Zygon in the 50th that copied Osgood (which is shown in this episode's recap). Of the two Osgoods, one was killed by Missy in last year's finale. The other surviving one is the Osgood we see in this ep.

Alright, I'm early on here I'll shut up until the episode's over

Just making sure I didn't miss something earlier in the season. It's become hard for me to remember which Moffat Ex Machina has reset what anymore.

Ok yeah sorry, the whole thing was clear like 5 seconds later

 

[Ophelion]

I thought it was a cool wrinkle that the 2 Osgoods were kind of linked in some intimate way and Missy murdering the other one drove the living one over the edge to some degree. This wasn't my favorite episode overall, but I really liked that. I hope they capitalize on that cool idea at some point. If not in the second episode, then hopefully they come back to it later because I want to explore what that did to Osgood further. She seems like she could be a much more nuanced character now even with the little bit of dialog we got from her talking about how she is the peace and all that stuff.

 

[paragonpro]

Is it possible that we see tennant in the finale? I heard he was spotted on set.

 

[Quick]

Is it possible that we see tennant in the finale? I heard he was spotted on set.

There's been a couple of callbacks already to previous events (Fires of Pompeii, Day of the Doctor), so Who Nose?

 

[funkystudent]

Is it possible that we see tennant in the finale? I heard he was spotted on set.

Possible. But its Tennant. He could have just popped by to say hi and play in the Tardis.

 

[Android18a]

Would the human-clone Tennant that went off with Rose be considered a... Hybrid?

 

[Fine Ham Abounds]

This was like if R.L. Stine wrote an episode of X-Files

I'm really bummed that they keep dropping "hybrid" in every other episode. I had almost managed to convince myself the prophecy line from Davros in episode 2 was just a one-off thing.

 

[mclem]

This was like if R.L. Stine wrote an episode of X-Files

I'm really bummed that they keep dropping "hybrid" in every other episode. I had almost managed to convince myself the prophecy line from Davros in episode 2 was just a one-off thing.

Watch it turn out that the new companion is named "Brid".

 

[BrokenFiction]

A hybrid is combining two different things.

This can mean only one thing.

The Return of Doctor Donna.

 

[paradox121]

I hope this series really turns it around now that we're in the back half, because so far the Davros two-parter has been the only high point of S9.

Im still on the side of people who say Girl Who Died is pretty special, but I do mostly agree. Those back four episodes have the potential to be really cool though, or at least, bare minimum, unique. Episodes 9 and 11 in particular could either be masterful subversions of the formula, or complete cack, but at least they're going for something the show's never done before.

I mean, I know I'm setting myself up for disappointment, but an episode with just Capaldi, directed by Rachel Talalay has gotta be good...right?

 

[Bobby Roberts]

Would the human-clone Tennant that went off with Rose be considered a... Hybrid?

aaaaaaaaaaaaAAAAAAAAAHHH

The Minister of War, perhaps?

AAAAAAA

(no.)

I do think it's weird Zygon Kate is just - not even a factor, though. I joked about it earlier, but I half think they're going to make the plane they're on a goddamn Zygon or something.

 

[A-V-B]

I mean, I know I'm setting myself up for disappointment, but an episode with just Capaldi, directed by Rachel Talalay has gotta be good...right?

Flip a coin. It's either mature and atmospheric like Dark Water, or action-packed and goofy like most of Death in Heaven.

 

[Fine Ham Abounds]

I do think it's weird Zygon Kate is just - not even a factor, though. I joked about it earlier, but I half think they're going to make the plane they're on a goddamn Zygon or something.

WAIT

THAT'S IT

PLANES

THEY'RE NOTHING BUT HYBRIDS OF BIRDS AND BUSSES

 

[CrimsonFist]

This was like if R.L. Stine wrote an episode of X-Files

I'm really bummed that they keep dropping "hybrid" in every other episode. I had almost managed to convince myself the prophecy line from Davros in episode 2 was just a one-off thing.

You'd think that after Caan, Davros would have learned his lesson about listening to prophecies.

 

[Broken Joystick]

WAIT

THAT'S IT

PLANES

THEY'RE NOTHING BUT HYBRIDS OF BIRDS AND BUSSES

HOW CAN IT BE A DUCK POND IF THERE AREN'T ANY DUCKS

BECAUSE THE DUCKS ARE PLANES

#MOFFATPLAYINGTHELONGGAME
it all makes sense