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Doctor Who Series 9 |OT| Let Zygons Be Zygons

The Doctor's speech was...moving.
When "You just want cruelty to beget cruelty" hit, I knew this was going to be a defining moment.

I also don't think it's a coincidence that he mentioned "longest month of my life" and the next episode preview talks about something that goes on for a month.
 

Gvitor

Member
First half was garbage. Second half was surprisingly good. The shapeshifter theme CAN work, it just doesn't for me when the "other half" are those ugly things and they shove that ridiculous "I can sort of control you from the pod" storyline down our throats.

Liked the speech.
Clara is totally dead from the Doctor's viewpoint.
 
So the question is: When did Clara die, then? If we take "a month" for face value, that would put us to the underwater base two-parter. I do remember the ghost of the Doctor listing all of the people there as victims, including Clara (who I believe was the first survivor on the list - she would've been next after the last death).
Was it maybe some time during the events of the season opener with the Daleks and Missy? I could see Missy doing some trickster stuff when Clara got "killed" by the Daleks, or when she put Clara into one of the Dalek tanks.

Also can we have Osgood as companion pls.
 

mclem

Member
So the question is: When did Clara die, then? If we take "a month" for face value, that would put us to the underwater base two-parter.

Note that we could take it at face value the other way if the season is working backwards. Which would put it... right at the end of the season.
 

Dryk

Member
So was anyone else seriously worrying about whether or not Bonnie would stand down? 'cause I sure as hell didn't think they'd actually go through with a peaceful resolution but I sure hoped so.
 
Note that we could take it at face value the other way if the season is working backwards. Which would put it... right at the end of the season.

Fair point. Though wasn't the sell of the season ending that the Doctor is all alone, and that there is no companion or guest star?
 

Razmos

Member
I do remember the ghost of the Doctor listing all of the people there as victims, including Clara (who I believe was the first survivor on the list - she would've been next after the last death).
That was resolved in the episode, the Doctor made up the list so that Clara would be next, which would motivate him to save her and himself. That's why Bennett got so angry at the Doctor, because he knew that him and the others weren't important enough to save but Clara and the Doctor were.

She is going to die in
episode 10
I believe.
 

Dryk

Member
I'm also noticing how understated the music accompanying the speech is, it doesn't even kick in until about three-quarters of the way through. Kudos to whoever was mixing this episode.
 
Really enjoyable. Yes, Capaldi stole the show a few times over, but props to Jenna too. The scene with Bonnie and Clara was fantastic and I love that there's visibly a different energy between Coleman and Capaldi while she's Bonnie. I generally love that the episode is a pretty specific inversion of the events of Day of the Doctor.

My big bugbear is that, while I'm fairly meh on Osgood, she gets barely anything to do considering she's talked up as the ultimate keeper of peace. I mean, they're called Osgood Boxes. And she even says at the end that she needs to stick around to watch over them. But it was the Doctor that did all the (admittedly incredible) talking. It just felt a bit weird that after all this build up she just kinda stood around.

Also, I need to rewatch it, but what was with the cops? Were they meant to be Zygons or just stupid? I thought all the public being a bit zoned out and uninterested was leading somewhere but no.
 
I think a problem with Doctor Who is that they try to do moral dilemma-type stories that end up being undermined by the way the show is set up. The Doctor can't do or say anything really controversial because the show's perpetually ongoing existence hinges on the audience tolerating him. Neither can the companion really, because the Doctor would just turf them out if they stepped out of line. And it's difficult to have any past or present Earth-based story lead anywhere unexpected because, for obvious reasons, the setting needs to vaguely align with the real world. As good as the whole box scene was, the outcome felt a bit inevitable. Whereas with, say, Star Trek: Voyager, a similar story might have genuinely ended with the two sides fucking up and declaring war on each other, with Voyager buggering off into the sunset. And not really related to the plot of this week's Who episode but there's an episode of DS9 where Dax has a think about doing basically doing some murder and then actually does the murders and Kira and Sisko glare at her and think she's a she-dick - the nature of the show allowing character stuff that Who couldn't go near with a barge pole because there's so much hinging on just two-ish central characters.

Perhaps I'm being a bit unfair, I just sometimes feel that this show tries to pretend it's doing something interesting and thought-provoking when it's actually just shoving Tab A into Slot B because it's literally impossible for it to develop its primary characters and settings in certain ways.
 
at some point we'll have a companion leave with "Hmm, I've had enough of this," or "I fell in love with this person I just met," or "Now I'll never know if I was right." Instead we'll get another companion with some convoluted reason why they can't be with the Doctor, but not actually dead, but the Doctor will act like they're dead, but they're not actually dead...

Zygella was almost the most Clara has done this season since she her Banter with Missy.
 

DECK'ARD

The Amiga Brotherhood
Agreed.

I thought Jenna Coleman played the villain pretty fantastically in that scene with Capaldi, but in the rest of the episode she played it pretty straight. I really feel like these actors are just being held back by the writing.

I actually think the 2-parters are not helping. As pairs of episodes they've all been very unbalanced, and it's been jarring both in story terms and in characterisation. A speech like this, which was great, should have been at the crescendo of things but the story just wasn't told well across the 2 episodes. It's like they didn't know how to, and made an episode shoving in as much allegory as possible and then an episode with a speech about it in it.

It's getting in the way of just good, well told stories and that's robbing the series of highs like Listen/Mummy/Flatline last time round. I think the closest we've got, although more divisive, was The Woman Who Lived and that was practically self-contained.

The 2-parters to me are feeling more of a gimmick than something that was needed. The series really needs a very strong run of episodes to end on.
 
And I feel now more justifed as a character than just 'oh she's a superfan in the show how meta'

A beloved relative of mine, referring to a wildly successful fan proxy character in another Moffat show <cough>, refers to Osgood as FailMolly.

She's waiting to watch the Series 9 disc, rather than watching the show live, and I've conveyed my excitement about the first episode of this two-parter. I think I'll tell her just how exciting I found the conclusion.

It isn't so much the fangirl thing, with Osgood. The key scene that establishes her character in the show is that moment in Day of the Doctor when they both bond. My interpretation (for what little it's worth) is as follows. Fair warning: I do have a track record of overthinking these matters.

At the climax of the Zygon subplot in Day of the Doctor, like everybody else in the room the Osgoods didn't know which of them was human and which was Zygon, but they did know which one of them had the inhaler beforehand. Thus each deduced their own identity in the same instant. They each exchange a conspiratorial smile. That's the key character-determining moment.

For some reason, perhaps the emotional effect of seeing three versions of their hero acting as one, perhaps the quality of their Zygon-mediated personal rapport, perhaps the sense that peace is actually possible, they rapidly forge a strong bond.

Osgood had a problematic relationship with her blood sister, but when one of her is killed by Missy the remaining Osgood puts on the gravestone only "My sister." The peace with which both of Osgood identify has linked them irrevocably.

Inevitably Bonnie joins the Osgood sisterhood in the end. Because, awwwww! Doctor Who: Friendship is Magic.
 
I mean, we had an entire episode of "the Zygons are ISIS".

No, we really didn't. This fictional story may resonate with some current events more than others, but the writer is too good at his craft to get bogged down in specifics.

This story was no more about IS than The Lord of the Rings is about the Second World War. They just happened to coincide in the writer's life and may have informed their writing.
 

tomtom94

Member
No, we really didn't. This fictional story may resonate with some current events more than others, but the writer is too good at his craft to get bogged down in specifics.

This story was no more about IS than The Lord of the Rings is about the Second World War. They just happened to coincide in the writer's life and may have informed their writing.

So you're telling me that the Zygons' usage of symbols (one of which even resembles the ISIS logo) and TV broadcasts, the explicit use of the term "radicalisation" and the "young rebel factions" were all just a single informing factor? Just go through this thread and look at the reactions to last week's episode. It was not subtle.

I thought this episode was fantastic and the Doctor's speech really resonated. I'm not quite sure why I've been called up for pointing out something extremely obvious.
 
Thinking about it Bonnie's story is totally fucked up. Her entire motivation was that Zygon's shouldn't have to hide and pretend to be someone else, that their own personal identities were important and worthy of being acknowledged. I mean even when she was pretending to Clara she was decisively not Clara, when The Doctor called her by that other name she insisted he call her Bonnie. Everything she was fighting for was to be allowed to be herself, granted she did it in a terrible, awful, sort of way but that was her core reasoning, highly relateable. Yet, what happens in the end? She not only gives up her main mission but even completely abandons her own identity and becomes Osgood #3, and unlike when she was Clara she explicitly takes on all of Osgood's behaviour and personality, down to the inhaler. Unlike when she was Clara, there's no Bonnie in there at all, I mean fuck she literally gives up her identity as a Zygon. Why? Because the Doctor talked to her.

Fucked up, kinda of a shitty ending if you think about it.
 

DECK'ARD

The Amiga Brotherhood
Part 1 of this Zygone story literally put me to sleep.

I'm thinking of skipping both eps.

Should I skip? Yes? No?

Tricky, part 2 is a lot better but I wouldn't say the sum of both episodes is particularly good.

There is a very good scene in part 2 though that you probably don't want to miss.
 

Joqu

Member
I enjoyed Inversion just fine but it wasn't good enough to me to make up for Invasion. I really like that it's two-parters this season but with these two episodes I can't help but feel like there was a waste of an episode there.

Then again that speech in Inversion is kind of important and I can't imagine them keeping that whole with only a single episode so maybe I'm wrong.
 
Thinking about it Bonnie's story is totally fucked up. Her entire motivation was that Zygon's shouldn't have to hide and pretend to be someone else, that their own personal identities were important and worthy of being acknowledged. I mean even when she was pretending to Clara she was decisively not Clara, when The Doctor called her by that other name she insisted he call her Bonnie. Everything she was fighting for was to be allowed to be herself, granted she did it in a terrible, awful, sort of way but that was her core reasoning, highly relateable. Yet, what happens in the end? She not only gives up her main mission but even completely abandons her own identity and becomes Osgood #3, and unlike when she was Clara she explicitly takes on all of Osgood's behaviour and personality, down to the inhaler. Unlike when she was Clara, there's no Bonnie in there at all, I mean fuck she literally gives up her identity as a Zygon. Why? Because the Doctor talked to her.

Fucked up, kinda of a shitty ending if you think about it.

Actually they kinda made it clear that the splinter group wasn't really trying to fight for Zygon rights or identities, they just wanted war for war's sake and not being treated fairly was a flimsy excuse for it (particularly because humans aren't treated any different than the Zygons are). The Doctor then brings up the futility of that - that once they wiped out the "traitors", their revolutionary state wouldn't be able to survive, and at some point, another revolutionary would come along and try to do the same thing that Bonnie did. Especially since they already were going against their own people and the will of their fellow Zygons. The bloodshed simply would never end. That's why she surrendered.

The transformation to Osgood #3 makes little sense to me either, though I believe part of it might be that the Osgoods are the personification of the truce between humanity and Zygons, and represent the best interest of both species. Furthermore, unlike Kate and the Zygon goons, they couldn't wipe Bonnie's memories (I forgot why, they mentioned it though), which made Bonnie a prime candidate to be that personification of peace, as well. Thus, Bonnie replacing the dead Osgood makes up for that loss, and re-establishes the status quo between the humans and Zygons.
 
That was a great line.

Also, that was a pretty great Osgood "suck it!" moment at the end of the video :D

Edit: "Uh...That'd be telling" Heh
 

Mariolee

Member
You guys aren't seeing the real end game: Osgood will go mad with power as she assimilates everyone Mr. Smith style. Season finale, bank on it.
 
Didn't like the first part but that second part was great. Really enjoyed the entire scene with the Osgoode Box. They did a good job of tying it into the Day of the Doctor.
 
Excellent. This two parter was easily the highlight of the season. There are quibbles here and there with some aspects, but basically I loved this. Great character moments, excellent direction, and an incredible performance from Capaldi.

Peter Harness needs to be the next showrunner.
 
I really really liked that episode. Probably my favorite of the 12th doctor episodes. Capaldis speech was fantastic. I loved evil Clara. Liked the resolution. Overall a great episode.
 
Excellent. This two parter was easily the highlight of the season. There are quibbles here and there with some aspects, but basically I loved this. Great character moments, excellent direction, and an incredible performance from Capaldi.

Peter Harness needs to be the next showrunner.

Oh hell no.

I don't need a whole season of Kill the Moon and other forced shallow political hot button allegory.
 

twobear

sputum-flecked apoplexy
i have to say i didn't really see why the entire peace treaty depended on nobody knowing which is the real osgood
 
Excellent. This two parter was easily the highlight of the season. There are quibbles here and there with some aspects, but basically I loved this. Great character moments, excellent direction, and an incredible performance from Capaldi.

Peter Harness needs to be the next showrunner.

I don't know, with it being co-written by Moffat, aren't you all for him staying on now? :p

I tease! But with you on the episode assessment. With the length of the speech and the lack of music it'll be less clippable famous than say, the Rings of Akaten, but you just know that scene won't be forgotten. And the bravery of the length of it!
 

draetenth

Member
Just great, I couldn't watch tonight's episode because a message kept coming up telling me I'm not subscribed to BBC America which is bullshit since I've been watching the channel for the last two years and know it's part of my Verizon package. I didn't get a notice or anything about it being removed. Hope this was a one time thing...
 
Quite.

And Moffat co-wrote this one didn't he? I think it's clear which bit.

Yep considering part one was dull and hella full of terrible allegory and part two was mostly dull with a lot less terrible allegory and an awesome Moffatian speech.

It's pretty clear why part two was better than one.
 

Lashley

Why does he wear the mask!?
Just great, I couldn't watch tonight's episode because a message kept coming up telling me I'm not subscribed to BBC America which is bullshit since I've been watching the channel for the last two years and know it's part of my Verizon package. I didn't get a notice or anything about it being removed. Hope this was a one time thing...

You didn't miss much
 
I liked this a lot more than the first part.

Basically, whenever Clara is trapped behind a door and has to talk her way out of it, she does well. It's weird how frequently this seems to happen to her, but it somehow brings the best out of her character. Although Bonnie was kinda terminator-esque in a couple shots there, which I'd never have thought was possible of Coleman.

And of course, the speech was probably the best Doctor speech since Pandorica. Maybe better.

Also, I don't think it's a coincidence that my high points of this season coincide with moments where the show forgoes action/adventure and simply features people talking at each other. But maybe that's my radio drama fandom getting in the way there.
 
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