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Doctor Who Series 9 |OT| Let Zygons Be Zygons
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funkystudent
Member
Doctor being a bit of a dick. And not in a good way.
Succinct Verbosity
Member
Bad episode so far, but that scene certainly shows that Capaldi is the best actor to play The Doctor so far.
BossDarkseid
Member
Capaldi is damn good even if the episode isn't,
WadiumArcadium
Member
Yep, haven't liked this two-parter much but he was brilliant in that scene.
N7Commander95
Member
I fucking love Doctor Who when it gets controversial, and this episode was great!
Also, next week is found footage? Sounds interesting
Also, next week is found footage? Sounds interesting
Randy Lanzarote
Member
I feel like the whole point of that two-parter was so that the Doctor could give that little speech.
Which was well delivered but still... Could've done without that insomnia inducing first episode.
Which was well delivered but still... Could've done without that insomnia inducing first episode.
JonathanEx
Member
Ooh. I liked that a lot. The 'obvious' twists had no big impact so they didn't bother me - it's all about engineering that situation.
And what a scene. And what a performance.
I feel this really has resolved actually quite a lot of the 'but what about...' from DoTD too, which is nice. Bigger picture and all that.
And what a scene. And what a performance.
I feel this really has resolved actually quite a lot of the 'but what about...' from DoTD too, which is nice. Bigger picture and all that.
WadiumArcadium
Member
I think I preferred it to last week's but this two-parter was definitely the weakest story of the series so far.
tonysidaway
Member
I really, really love this two-parter. Osgood is such a brilliant creation. It would be great to see a little more of her.
JonathanEx
Member
And I feel now more justifed as a character than just 'oh she's a superfan in the show how meta'
SictorVullivan
Member
Much much better than last weeks episode.
I'm glad she hasn't ended up as relentlessly shamelessly fangirly as she seemed she might from first impressions; she comes across as a very competent operative - perhaps the first member of UNIT after Kate who does! Ingrid Oliver's very good at the role, too - Big Finish might be smart to look to sign her up if they haven't already to appear with Kate in her UNIT stories.
I wonder if there's an underlying intent to build up a Pertwee-esque UNIT 'home team'. Mentioning Harry Sullivan by name was a nice touch, too, I don't think they did last week.
I'm amazed that they had a situation with two people facing off against each other in front of two buttons each and it didn't become a dramatisation of the Prisoner's Dilemma, a bit of game theory rapidly getting overused in game shows.
Much better than last weeks episode. Capaldi's performance was amazing, as was Jenna's.
I loved how there was no big "gotcha" moment, no deus ex machina, so checkhov's gun, no easy "out". The Doctor just.. talked Bonnie down, what he does best.
Osgood was also great, urh I can't believe the Doctor asked her to be a companion again and she refused ahdfgfgdfnggfgdf.
The foreshadowing to Clara's death is off the scale, the line about the Doctor mourning her death was.. weird. He's been mourning her death for over a month?
Was this episode chronologically AFTER her death? in his mourning did he go back in time for one last adventure? that might explain why Clara wasn't with him at the start of last episode and maybe why she had so many missed calls. That might be why he asked Osgood to join him as well.
It makes the scene where he's talking down Bonnie even more poignant, he's venting his frustration and his loss.
I loved how there was no big "gotcha" moment, no deus ex machina, so checkhov's gun, no easy "out". The Doctor just.. talked Bonnie down, what he does best.
Osgood was also great, urh I can't believe the Doctor asked her to be a companion again and she refused ahdfgfgdfnggfgdf.
The foreshadowing to Clara's death is off the scale, the line about the Doctor mourning her death was.. weird. He's been mourning her death for over a month?
Was this episode chronologically AFTER her death? in his mourning did he go back in time for one last adventure? that might explain why Clara wasn't with him at the start of last episode and maybe why she had so many missed calls. That might be why he asked Osgood to join him as well.
It makes the scene where he's talking down Bonnie even more poignant, he's venting his frustration and his loss.
Succinct Verbosity
Member
I'm so glad is good isn't a companion though
He was mentioned as the creator of the Zygon-destroying gas. He was also mentioned last week in that regard, too, but not - IIRC - named then
Edit:
APZonerunner
Member
Noticed the helmet Ashildr used was in the Black Archive there... so, that continues.
Solid conclusion... a little muddy, but good! Felt like an RTD era episode in many senses, but in many of those senses good. One bit of it I don't quite jive with -- I'm not somebody to get hung up on plot holes, but erasing memories isn't reversing all the deaths?! What about all the people who died? How are those deaths explained? The line about this being something that has happened before also makes that question all the more perplexing, obviously, but there you go!
Solid conclusion... a little muddy, but good! Felt like an RTD era episode in many senses, but in many of those senses good. One bit of it I don't quite jive with -- I'm not somebody to get hung up on plot holes, but erasing memories isn't reversing all the deaths?! What about all the people who died? How are those deaths explained? The line about this being something that has happened before also makes that question all the more perplexing, obviously, but there you go!
Much better than last week, and Capaldi killed it, but I think the messiness and ham-fistedness of the last episode actually undermined this one.
The stakes just didn't feel there in this. It felt more like just cleaning things up than anything, and Capaldi's scene didn't quite land because of it. Although well written. This episode needed more than Middle Aged Man Zygon to show the consequences to justify the Doctor's speech. Tying it into the 50th again helped, but not enough.
So mixed feeling overall really, it redeemed itself somewhat but I feel the story could have been told much better across the 2 episodes. It was an interesting idea but the result has been more of a rather dull missed opportunity.
The stakes just didn't feel there in this. It felt more like just cleaning things up than anything, and Capaldi's scene didn't quite land because of it. Although well written. This episode needed more than Middle Aged Man Zygon to show the consequences to justify the Doctor's speech. Tying it into the 50th again helped, but not enough.
So mixed feeling overall really, it redeemed itself somewhat but I feel the story could have been told much better across the 2 episodes. It was an interesting idea but the result has been more of a rather dull missed opportunity.
Android18a
Member
Speaking of easily missed in that episode...
Best screengrab I could get, on screen for barely a moment but as I saw it on TV I thought "Hang on, wasn't that William Hartnell?"
Correct me if I'm wrong but I'm impressed Osgood found such a nice photo of him if my eyes aren't playing tricks.
Best screengrab I could get, on screen for barely a moment but as I saw it on TV I thought "Hang on, wasn't that William Hartnell?"
Correct me if I'm wrong but I'm impressed Osgood found such a nice photo of him if my eyes aren't playing tricks.
It was in the previous episode as well, and you could see it more clearly.
I'm guessing the plane being shot down, given recent events in Sharm el-Sheik.
Well I was thinking the bit where someone committed suicide on screen before the watershed.
Plus the whole thing with the Muslim parallels.
Not in the sense that I would write to OFCOM (because I'm not a fuckwit) but I can imagine that generating controversy.
Broken Joystick
At least you can talk. Who are you?
That anti-war speech was really really good. Enjoyed this episode more than last week, and agreed with others that there was no "gotcha" moment that resolved the whole thing.
excelsiorlef
Member
Boring 2 parter elevated only by a fantastic Capaldi performance.
Also can't get the Osgood love. She's borderline 4th wall breaking and now she's "super important" meh....
Also can't get the Osgood love. She's borderline 4th wall breaking and now she's "super important" meh....
Not only muslims. All extremists of all believes. The religious, the communists, the right wingers, it applies to them all.
I mean, we had an entire episode of "the Zygons are ISIS".
We had?
ClivePwned
Member
Zygella.
I liked this week's episode a lot more than the set up. only 4 more to go.
I liked this week's episode a lot more than the set up. only 4 more to go.
...yeah, the first part of this two-parter.
I understand that the Doctor's speech is meant to be taken as a condemnation of all kinds of extremism and I agree that it's very effective, I'm just pointing out that this entire two-parter hinges quite heavily on parallels between the Zygons and a very specific kind of extremists.
funkystudent
Member
Capaldi is too damn good for this crummy storytelling.
He was mentioned as the creator of the Zygon-destroying gas. He was also mentioned last week in that regard, too, but not - IIRC - named then
Edit:
Ah right, fun reference. Didn't catch that.
Although, to be fair, Sullivan didn't seem like the type to develop something like that (also he was just a doctor, not a chemical scientist. On the other hand, he was also, in the words of the Doctor, an imbecile: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JgLgE0Ok3LI).
Exterminieren
Banned
That was astonishingly good.
Capaldi in with a bullet as the best performance anyone has ever given as the Doctor. Christ, but he's good.
Capaldi in with a bullet as the best performance anyone has ever given as the Doctor. Christ, but he's good.
The Capaldi rant at the end was awesome. Really liked this episode, but I almost feel bad for Capaldi. I feel like the substance of his speech could have been better written but he elevated it all to such a supreme level that it didn't matter. He's definitely been doing that for a lot of the writing this season.
The atheists and left wingers as well just to be sure.
The atheists and left wingers as well just to be sure.
I think the speech was well-written. It's just the substance of the 2 episodes themselves, especially this one, hadn't warranted it. And that made it feel a bit off.
Last episode was too clumsy with the themes it was tackling, and this one was too hands-off.
Capaldi made the speech just about save the day anyway.
Agreed.
I thought Jenna Coleman played the villain pretty fantastically in that scene with Capaldi, but in the rest of the episode she played it pretty straight. I really feel like these actors are just being held back by the writing.
My thoughts exactly. He's an excellent Doctor, but these stories have been duds this season.
Sure seems like it. I'm kinda glad that we already have the Doctor "in mourning" and that his grieving won't drag on.
The question now is, for how long has the Doctor been in mourning of Clara's death? Has he only known for this 2-parter? or has has he known the entire season? I kinda doubt it considering some of the things he has said regarding Clara and dying, unless his talk with Clara about how danger-seeking she is becoming was a way to try and prevent it perhaps.
Maybe his whole "Screw the rules" scene in The Girl Who Died was more about Clara than it was about Ashildr, and his talk with Ashildr in The Woman Who Lived was him coming to terms with the fact that his actions have consequences and saving Clara might not be a good idea.
That makes the scene at the end when he tells Clara he missed her even worse. The hug was him saying goodbye.