tonysidaway
Member
Well I shouldn't expect a Doctor Who fan would need an explicit answer to that question. He's already wiped out his own people to bring the Time War to an end.
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Doctor Who Series 9 |OT| Let Zygons Be Zygons
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Well I shouldn't expect a Doctor Who fan would need an explicit answer to that question. He's already wiped out his own people to bring the Time War to an end.
The "What would you do without me?" "Clara is going to die!" "I'm not going anywhere!" "Did you miss me?" ect ect ect. There has been at least one reference to Clara dying/her dangerous lifestyle/how the Doctor would mourn her every single story this season, if you can't see that then you aren't paying attention.
They aren't being subtle with Clara's fate at all and of course we know this is her final season. It's possible there is going to be a twist and its going to go in a different direction but they definitely want us to think she is going to die and are foreshadowing it very heavily and setting it up in such a way that her death is going to be very emotional.
tonysidaway
Member
I often wonder if any self-professed fans understand what the term "plot hole" means. It doesn't mean "trivial detail that is not laboriously spelled out." It's perfectly obvious why Bonnie could not destroy the plane.
Also you're misusing the term "retcon." Both episodes are completely consistent with one another, both as to plot and on a frame-by-frame analysis.
tonysidaway
Member
That's bog standard foreshadowing. What is being claimed here, for no discernible reason, is that Doctor Who has already witnessed Clara's death and mourned for a month. Some people are putting far more weight on a quirk of Doctor Who's speech than is merited. A minute can seem like a month.
I think for me it was the way he delivered the line rather than the wording itself, but I could be reading it wrong and it really was just him not coping well with the idea of her dying. It's just a theory
I am down with Clara already dead. Maybe this has to do with the Doctor paging Missy in the Dalek opener and it's part of his plan to whatever. It would be cool if all that culminates into a finale that draws from all episodes this season. The two Osgoods, the immortal girl, Missy and Davros, the minister of war and whatever comes next.
Moffat has claimed that the new companion is going to be a brand new character
Capaldi says he wants a "middle-class" companion like Rose again. Eurgh please no.
So that kinda rules out Osgood, but then again Moffat lies a lot, and in fact he lies in this very article, being all wishy washy about whether Clara might return despite saying in another interview that she will never return after she leaves.
People should probably just ignore what he says.
Capaldi says he wants a "middle-class" companion like Rose again. Eurgh please no.
So that kinda rules out Osgood, but then again Moffat lies a lot, and in fact he lies in this very article, being all wishy washy about whether Clara might return despite saying in another interview that she will never return after she leaves.
People should probably just ignore what he says.
peanutbutterlatte
Member
Yeah, "The Timelords aren't returning", "The Master is a cheesy enemy", the guy's full of shit.
tbh I believe him in this instance. I think Osgood's alright, but having a new companion that's already very well versed in Who lore as well as working for Unit takes the fun out of it. Usually, the companion is an ordinary person who has their life changed by meeting the Doctor. I don't think maintaining that is important, but it's a system that works.
JonathanEx
Member
Can't hate him for wanting to surprise a bit. It is drama after all.
To be fair, the Time Lords aren't in the show beyond passing references, and the Master has started killing people again, including named, recurring characters.
R_thanatos
Member
i'm not a self proclamed fan ..never claimed that i was one. so please don't draw conclusions from nothing next time , ok ?
Zeouterlimits
Member
I enjoyed the second half of the two parter, and like that they tried a terrorist cell / suffering begets suffering theme.
I would not say they really succeeded in making great episodes, but Capaldi's scene was good enough in my book.
I would not say they really succeeded in making great episodes, but Capaldi's scene was good enough in my book.
Freeza Under The Shower
Member
And most of the time I would agree with you on that since a lot of fans flip out over serviceable plots and developments. They might be weaker writers, but they know the basics of the genre and do well enough with it. There's a least that hint of promise of possible improvement, if you will. And more importantly, a kind of energy in watching. That energy is completely missing in his solo written episodes, even though they ironically still rank higher on imdb than any written by Mark Gatiss, who wrote the upcoming episode, so the chances on that one being better are not very good, unless Gatiss has somehow unlocked a hidden potential that nobody knew about.
But to get back on track, I would note that Steven Moffat is the co-writer on this episode and, despite how fans may feel about it, leagues ahead in terms of consistent creativity in terms of connecting causal dots and providing the energy and engagement necessary. Sure, he tends to fix major problems with silliness, but that's because he wants to keep things engaging and not lose everything in overbearing exposition (which is dull as shit). That speech, particularly the second halve where Capaldi suddenly gets a jolt of energy is clearly all Moffat, as is the ending. What do we talk about with this episode? Those two things, which are all Moffat.
Don't get me wrong here: I am fully aware that all my opinions are crap, full of hyperbole, and that I am, as a matter of fact, a pretentious prick, so how about we just make this into a bet instead? My entry is obvious that the next solo written episode by Harness will be just as mediocre as Kill the Moon and The Zygon Invasion, yours that it would be better. And assuming he gets another shot, we can just see what happens then. Deal?
As a side note, I can't believe I'm actually making this much of a fuzz about a kids show. Is this what that Gallifrey forum is like? *shiver*
Well, not everyone picks up on things and we all hate getting spoiled on things (or at least I do), so I figured better safe than sorry. Besides, it was speculation on future episodes, not current ones. Spoiler tags are kind of mandatory on that. Also, I am not pissed off about the season at all, it's just that forcing this setup on the entire season has to merit a big pay-off for it to be worth doing it. I'm not particularly smitten about using it for the entire season though. It's consistent (and presumably therefore important), but it's kind of 'we get it' after two times as well.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
How many companions have died, period, though? Not many. Doesn't happen all that often.
I think since the series came back, it's just Jack, right?
(meanwhile, in Radio Drama land, Almost every single one of Eight's companions has kicked rocks into the afterlife. No wonder dude was like "Fuck it, give me the drink" at the end)
I think since the series came back, it's just Jack, right?
(meanwhile, in Radio Drama land, Almost every single one of Eight's companions has kicked rocks into the afterlife. No wonder dude was like "Fuck it, give me the drink" at the end)
The thing is we genuinely don't know who wrote what, and stuff like this basically comes across as "well clearly Harness wrote the crap stuff and Moffat wrote the good stuff" which I had enough of when Ant-Man came out.
Speeches played a big part in Kill the Moon as well. Did Moffat - who has a reputation for being very hands-off as a script editor - rewrite them then?
Exterminieren
Banned
I cannot see how Kill The Moon can be called a mediocre. I can see why people love it, and I can see why people despise it, but I'm completely at a loss as to how it can be considered middle of the road.
The Zygon Invasion was great too. So there.
The Zygon Invasion was great too. So there.
You can definitely feel the different voices in yesterday's episode, and they're constantly in flux, almost from line to line. I felt very little of Moffat's voice in Kill the Moon. Maybe some slight editing, but not a lot. I remember that being one of the scripts that season that didn't have Moffat as co-writer.
I think Moffat's voice can be a little more inquisitive and active. It brings up problems and then invites you to find the answer.
e.g. "The clock's ticking again." "But there's no clock in this room. What's ticking?"
Whereas Harness is a bit more obvious about when he's tackling some kind of issue. He likes tackling issues. He'll drop a modern day dilemma in your lap and go, "hey, right?"
Moffat's writing has a sense of forward momentum that I like.
DOCTOR: You really are dying, aren't you?
DAVROS: Look at me. Did you doubt it?
DOCTOR: Yes.
DAVROS: Then we have established one thing only.
DOCTOR: What?
DAVROS: You are not a good doctor.
This is also my personal opinion, but I think Moffat has a fantastic grip on the character of the Doctor. RTD was really good, too, he just happened to write a traumatized Doctor his entire run which led to Extreme PTSD Doctor (9) and Egotistical Morality Knight Doctor (10) which culminated in the Time Lord Victorious. Which I liked! But when I've seen Harness write for the Doctor, I always get this feeling in the back of my mind that this man isn't the Doctor, that's he someone else. Which is incredibly uncomfortable.
Exterminieren
Banned
There was indeed, and it's my favourite of the series so far, but I'm glad I didn't see it until afterwards- it's a little spoilery as to the nature of the Osgood box.
peanutbutterlatte
Member
Capaldi finally gets his "Rings of Akhaten" moment; an excellent, character-driven scene in an otherwise entirely mediocre episode. And yes, it was entirely mediocre. Thank the lord that's out of the way and done with.
Freeza Under The Shower
Member
Pretty sure there was this thing with weeping angels and some redhead and a centurion getting permanently put in the dirt.
Also that one boyfriend Clara had. Not exactly a companion, but Moffat has no regrets about playing whack-a-mole with companion characters. RTD did though.
That is a fair point, though I am not familiar with any Ant-Man discussion. Is it Paul Rudd getting a credit for rewriting part of his dialogue? (that seemed pretty obvious while watching the movie, to be honest. It works in the movie's favour though). Eh, doesn't matter.
But to answer / rebut it: we have sufficient material of both Harness and Moffat as solo credited writers to compare their voices and style of problem-solving in their writing and general structure stuff. Like A-V-B mentioned above, Moffat has graduated basic structure a long time ago and has moved into theme material, with clear move-countermove type dialogue and story progress. As far as I can tell, Harness does not, and the tell-tale of that is (major!) characters just standing around while not being engaged. A more experienced writer would ask 'why is that character even there' or give them dialogue to make their presence active, instead of passive. It's kind of hard to explain how you can tell these differences, but if you spend a lot of time with movies, books, and other writing related stuff, that just becomes obvious at some point. I'm sorry I can't be more specific than that, but it's basically an intuition, ultimately becoming a skill that can be verbally explained with the arrival of mastery. I am nowhere near that last bit. I would know because every time I try writing something myself it just becomes this boring 'why are these characters even there' crap. So you know, takes one to know one.
Btw, a good example of uncredited scripts being visible to the average viewer is by looking at the credited list of Andrew Kevin Walker (8MM, Se7en, Sleepy Hollow, etc.) and then looking at the credited writers of Event Horizon and The Game. If you look at the writers of those, compare their level of complexity (use of research, clever ideas to have exposition, actual knowledge) and say, the imdb user rating of their other work, it will quickly become obvious that there is no way in Infernis that those people actually wrote those movies by themselves alone. Like the use of Latin, yes. That's knowledge and research, right there. Turns out both of them have an uncredited script by Walker underneath them (according to the imdb trivia), and it's obvious as shit.
Now, that's different from script doctoring, which is a very large aspect of how movies get made, but they don't get credit. Both Walker and Aaron Sorkin have done plenty of script doctoring without adding in their own voice into someone else's script. It's the equivalent of improving upon someone's voice while maintaining it (similar to a novel adaptation or translation).
Exterminieren
Banned
Nah, I reserve mediocrity for episodes that do absolutely nothing new, rather than bold experiments that don't entirely work. I'm far more likely to call something like Under The Lake or Time Heist mediocre than The Rings of Akhaten.
I thought that this episode, and the two-parter as a whole, was a bold experiment in seeing how far you could push Doctor Who before it snapped, and, personally at least, it absolutely nailed it, unlike something like Dark Water that pushed the show that little bit too far.
God, I love Dark Water. The first ten minutes of that episode were magical.
I don't really know why people count Amy and Rory as "dying while adventuring the Doctor"
They didn't die as companions, they were separated from the Doctor, lived out their entire lives and died naturally. That is nowhere near as tragic as a sudden and brutal death.
Rory would have counted for that multiple times if he hadn't kept coming back.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
As Razmos pointed out, they didn't die, they just got sent back in time. They lived a long and fruitful life without him.
Danny wasn't ever a companion, I don't think. I wouldn't classify him as such. Although I guess you could argue it if I'm going to classify Jack as a companion, too.
(and even then, Jack came back thanks to Rose)
Exterminieren
Banned
I think that on the whole it was an excellent episode, and I salute it for being so daring with what Doctor Who as a series can be about, but you get moments like "Don't cremate me!" and... nah. Save that sort of shit for Torchwood.
Hot Coldman
Banned
That two-parter felt like a device just to get to the Black Archive scene, and that scene was fucking wonderful and meaningful and intense and engaging and gobsmacking... so it's worth it.
That episode was fucking amazing. Dat speech!!
But not just the speech. The whole thing played beautifully, methinks. Like, I was fine with the first part, didn't feel too strongly either way, but this week had a lot of lovely elements in it.
Loved that poor Zygon that just wanted to be left alone, really felt for him and was sad to see him off himself. And it plays nicely with the Black Archive scene.
I think the only thing I found really dumb was the Kate flashback. So unnecessary
My biggest worry was that Bonnie would just say fuck it and press something. It was what I hated about the Witch's Familiar. After such a touching scene, I got really mad when Davros returned to his cartoony villain self. So I'm very glad of how this episode ended.
Also, fuck, that speech was so good. Capaldi had me in tears.
But not just the speech. The whole thing played beautifully, methinks. Like, I was fine with the first part, didn't feel too strongly either way, but this week had a lot of lovely elements in it.
Loved that poor Zygon that just wanted to be left alone, really felt for him and was sad to see him off himself. And it plays nicely with the Black Archive scene.
I think the only thing I found really dumb was the Kate flashback. So unnecessary
My biggest worry was that Bonnie would just say fuck it and press something. It was what I hated about the Witch's Familiar. After such a touching scene, I got really mad when Davros returned to his cartoony villain self. So I'm very glad of how this episode ended.
Also, fuck, that speech was so good. Capaldi had me in tears.
The thing is though, don't Zygons need a human to base their appearance on? So Bonnie-Osgood had to have used the original human Osgood as a base to take her appearance, meaning the Osgood in this 2 parter WAS the Human.
Freeza Under The Shower
Member
Okay.... this is a really weird thing to claim, because the logical structure here is:
episode starts with Amy and Rory as companions, stuff happens, they die within the span of the episode (or two) as a result of being related to the Doctor (this was a big point in the episodes too, with the Doctor flipping out because he had read the book, thereby sealing their fate), and the Doctor leaves companion-less, but in the pleasant knowledge that they lived a full live regardless of their unintended demise. (this is basically softening the blow as writing technique. You get shit done, create change in the main character, everybody is satisfied by the end. It was a lovely send-off )
So, they died as a result of being companions to the Doctor in the length of those episodes (start: companions; end: no companions. Ergo, they dead). They just didn't show it on-screen because that would be awful and unnecessary. That would be a slasher movie thing to do. Or worse: B-movie.
Continuously bringing Rory back was the running theme of that particular season, as is continuously avoiding Clara's death the one in this one so far. The line at the end of this episode however, suggested that as far as 'the judge of time' is concerned, the flip to permanent has already occurred from his perspective (which is definitely a Moffat line, because Moffat loves creepy Doctor, and I fully agree with that), whereas we were shown the linear version with the previous two.
Because you don't want to repeat the same thing twice as a writer (audience can tell, gets bored, ditches book / movie), or director for that matter (go watch Carpenter's The Thing and see how each 'big' - you will know why- scene is framed differently for effect).
Now, a further perversion or 'avoiding repetition' would be to use the death-rebirth cycle for a different purpose, like I previously speculated. That doesn't have to happen, but there are only so many moves that one can make with story before having to repeat yourself (this was Stargate SG-1's problem: they ran out of moves by S5 and then there five more... kind of like Supernatural actually. With that show it's even something of a meta-gag at this point that even the characters themselves are aware of it, and that was two seasons ago).
Also you don't have to shove a stack of dynamite up a characters ass (while I'm sure Clara's is lovely and all) to demonstrate that the character died (see Centurion, unless they retcon that, in which they will need Super Cosmic Hyper Ultra Extra Alpha Large Plus Dynamite -you might see the problem there). We have already seen her being exterminated by daleks on-screen though, so technically she and Jack are already one and two that we have seen on-screen.
Both using 'on-screen' as a "he dead" rule is really silly, because it's just a choice on the writer's end. If Word Of God says "he dead!", he's fucking dead. Until God changes his mind about that, but thankfully, that's usually a different story and a different God.
Popo!
But seriously, creepy Doctor is best doctor. That transition in Blink on "I have until the rain stops" and then the protagonist sitting on an empty bed: beautiful! From the perspective of mere mortals, the Doctor is easily the single most terrifying being in existence (kind of the point of the Pandoricum), and that is just awesome. Can we talk more about that? Can we? Can we? Can we? *squeals*
I forgot to bring that up in a recent 'favorite fictional astronaut' thread: Vashta Nerada. Come on, that black helmet with just a fucking skull in it: yaaaaay!
( I think I need a break from this, it's getting to me )
What's funny is I think the best use of that concept was actually the Toclafane from the Sound of Drums. Humanity turned themselves into childlike machines that kill for fun, as a last resort for escaping the end of the universe. It's the only time they've ever focused on the fact that these things are twisted versions of humanity rather than mindless killing machines, and they aren't even Cybermen. I suppose the Master realised the similarities and decided to use Cybermen the next time.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
No, it isn't.
They chose to leave the Doctor and get zapped back in time to live a long life together. They know how the Angels work.
The writers of the new series have gone to pretty decent lengths to make sure a companion doesn't actually die as a direct effect of the Doctor's actions. Jack is probably the only one. Everyone else's death became a "death" due to IMMEDIATE retconning, or they never actually died.
I mean, I'm talking about stuff like Adric blowing up. Stuff that's pretty obvious the death is permanent and a direct, immediate result of an adventure the Doctor is on.
Seriously, when did they decide Rose was middle class?
tonysidaway
Member
Actually the report says Capaldi used the term "working class."
Freewheelin'
Member
Fuck me
Capaldi
Fuck me
Capaldi
Fuck me
tonysidaway
Member
Oh, I loved that bit. Hilarious, and the part of Seb is beautifully played by Chris Addison.
Freeza Under The Shower
Member
"they" didn't. One of them did, only because the other had already been zapped (so that wasn't a choice), and that was just to get it done and over with. It would have made little difference if both were zapped or just one, but having one left behind was just extra drama. They did not choose that fate at all.
And as far as the show is concerned, that was the end for both of them, and permanent. I don't read or listen to the extended stuff, so I wouldn't know about shenanigans beyond that. Beyond that point it's comic book logic, not drama.
Who? (ha!)
But yeah, that's what I figured by now. We're using a different standard, but it is somewhat inconsistent not to count Clara being exterminated as a result of the Doctor going to Davros, just because the show isn't done with her yet.
Similarly, not to count Rory and Amy when that was kind of the point of that two-parter. Losing people is part of his dramatic character. I take it he just no longer a dick about it. I've never seen the original run aside from a few passing encounters. I was like... five back then.
Well that makes way more sense.
Regarding the episode, I feel like all the Zygon = ISIS stuff from last week wasn't as pronounced this time; so it was more of a familiar political overtone than an actual allegorical point in the end. Seems like the real point of this two-parter was to give Capaldi a chance at his best ever scene; a chance he took and excelled with.
Also, "I'm old enough to be your Messiah" cracked me up. Props to whoever wrote that one.
They can steal your form from your memory, so Bonnie could have used that to take Osgood's info from clone Osgood. Plus, the Zygons seem to make copies so flawless that not even another Zygon can physically tell if someone is a Zygon unless they knew ahead of time, so they're more or less a perfect copy, right down to the health problems. Bonnie could have copied a perfect copy of Osgood and it shouldn't have made a difference, technically speaking.
Plus from a writing standpoint, there's no benefit in sacrificing shapeshifting Osgood for normal Osgood.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
okay.
Anyway, since I brought up radio drama shit earlier, I should probably mention it looks like Big Finish finally went ahead and organized their site so that you can find all the 7th Doctor adventures in one spot
http://www.bigfinish.com/ranges/released/doctor-who---the-7th-doctor-collected
It actually did say middle class when I saw it, maybe they edited it.
tonysidaway
Member
Sometimes Americans use the term middle class where a British person might say working class. There seems to be an odd clash of terms there. Maybe that's at the heart of this confusion.
I know, I thought that was excellent