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Doctor Who Series 9 |OT| Let Zygons Be Zygons
- Thread starter Quick
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Grizzlyjin
Supersonic, idiotic, disconnecting, not respecting, who would really ever wanna go and top that
I agree 100%. I actually didn't care for Clara much until the first episode of Series 8 when she had to talk her way out of being killed, without The Doctor. Up until that point, I never really saw what Clara added to the show, but I've loved the character since then.
Second half was definitely a step up from the first. I could barely keep focused last week, but I was actually interested in what was going on today. And like everyone has said, the speech at the end made the episode.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
Yeah, that jumped right out at me. And then the "NEXT TIME" using that exact same measurement of time.
Curiouser and curiouser.
ElRenoRaven
Member
Goddamn that speech by Capaldi tonight. Amazing fucking moment. I really do like his take on the Doctor a ton.
CloudyTuba
Member
Wait hold on a minute. I think i missed something really important.
Please explain what you guys are talking about!
The Doctor is out of sync with Clara and she's already dead? Where..uh..what?
bengraven
Member
Did...I did just see something positive from Kuwabaraman...in a NuWho thread?
Anyway, agreed, fantastic award-quality acting from both him and Coleman I would say. Her reacting against him during his speech was incredible, though the rest of the episode was typical "peppy Clara" time.
Gooood but Bonny-Clara is so..so...*sigh*
And I'm going to be heartbroken about Clara in the end. She really is a fantastic companion.
Anyway, agreed, fantastic award-quality acting from both him and Coleman I would say. Her reacting against him during his speech was incredible, though the rest of the episode was typical "peppy Clara" time.
Gooood but Bonny-Clara is so..so...*sigh*
And I'm going to be heartbroken about Clara in the end. She really is a fantastic companion.
a secret-boss
Banned
that's a good performance by Capaldi
Nice Playstation VR next episode
Nice Playstation VR next episode
bengraven
Member
Bit disappointed we're getting another "science crew in a mostly abandoned facility being attacked by aliens" episode so soon after the last two.
I know to expect 2-3 Aliens/The Thing clones per year, but it's getting old. You'd think with the popularity of the show we can expand that.
I know to expect 2-3 Aliens/The Thing clones per year, but it's getting old. You'd think with the popularity of the show we can expand that.
excelsiorlef
Member
To be fair though they are often some of the best episodes and they're cheap to make.
Beaniedude
Member
Man that speech was amazing.
Simply amazing.
Edit: Though I have to say I didn't really understand why it was so important for the Doctor to know if Osgood was Zygon or human. Like, I understand during the war because it might come in handy but after it had all blown over and the ceasefire was back in place? Why ask?
Simply amazing.
Edit: Though I have to say I didn't really understand why it was so important for the Doctor to know if Osgood was Zygon or human. Like, I understand during the war because it might come in handy but after it had all blown over and the ceasefire was back in place? Why ask?
I don't think he was aware Moffat co-wrote this one when making that post, and he's now having an existential crisis.
Ignatz Mouse
Banned
More fuel for the Clara is Already Dead notion... That's why the Doctor invited along a new companion.
Freeza Under The Shower
Member
Well, that was, aside from a brief moment at the start and end (just look at the replies here: nobody gives a flying fuck about the episode, just that last line), entirely as mediocre as I expected it to be.
Please don't let Harness write another episode of Doctor Who. I will skip them by default. He's a terrible for this. Seriously, if anyone feels like fighting me on this: give me one good reason, either given on screen or by fridge logic, why Clara had be removed
to do this:
for fifteen minutes. Yes, at the end of it, Capaldi performed a magic trick of creating something out of fucking nothing, but the third time it cut back to Clara with a 'now respond!' insert, I just knew I was literally watching the Doctor Who equivalent of Samurai Cop. Don't tell me you didn't notice it.
Also, that lie detector crap. When someone used that quack stuff over actual logic in dialogue, you know the writer has run out of ideas. There are so many more interesting ways to do that without insulting the viewer or losing their interest. There was nothing clever about it, it was just Clara blurting out exposition, and then, what do you know, more fucking exposition. Good lord.
If you think it was there for a reason: what was the point of Clara being able to influence the Zygon when that was both cut off, and though referenced in dialogue at the end, made no difference whatsoever? I mean, you have to create some kind of causal link there if you're going to use it as 'the point' of the entire fucking episode. Oh yes, this episode pissed me off, I don't deny it. Well, actually the two-parter.
Again though, the special effects people did a solid. Explosion wasn't awkward (which on a TV budget is kind of expected), Zylons weren't, safe thing was neat, helmet in the back, etcetera.
Hopefully the next one is back to form.... no pun intended.
Also, the whole
Please don't let Harness write another episode of Doctor Who. I will skip them by default. He's a terrible for this. Seriously, if anyone feels like fighting me on this: give me one good reason, either given on screen or by fridge logic, why Clara had be removed
from that pod
for fifteen minutes. Yes, at the end of it, Capaldi performed a magic trick of creating something out of fucking nothing, but the third time it cut back to Clara with a 'now respond!' insert, I just knew I was literally watching the Doctor Who equivalent of Samurai Cop. Don't tell me you didn't notice it.
Also, that lie detector crap. When someone used that quack stuff over actual logic in dialogue, you know the writer has run out of ideas. There are so many more interesting ways to do that without insulting the viewer or losing their interest. There was nothing clever about it, it was just Clara blurting out exposition, and then, what do you know, more fucking exposition. Good lord.
If you think it was there for a reason: what was the point of Clara being able to influence the Zygon when that was both cut off, and though referenced in dialogue at the end, made no difference whatsoever? I mean, you have to create some kind of causal link there if you're going to use it as 'the point' of the entire fucking episode. Oh yes, this episode pissed me off, I don't deny it. Well, actually the two-parter.
Again though, the special effects people did a solid. Explosion wasn't awkward (which on a TV budget is kind of expected), Zylons weren't, safe thing was neat, helmet in the back, etcetera.
Hopefully the next one is back to form.... no pun intended.
Also, the whole
'Clara dies, and then she's back' is totally going to her either becoming or causing this 'hybrid' thing, isn't it? considering she started as a Dalek, using her would make sense. I mean, there's not exactly much other point in doing in that in every two-parter of the season, unless that was a very specific plot point. They wouldn't shove those two things in not to have them connect. Oh, and I'm calling the use of "mercy" there for keeps
Bobby Roberts
Banned
...and filling in for Kuwabara the Man this week is our own Freeza Under the Shower! Everybody give Freeza a round of applause, c'mon y'all.
Freeza Under The Shower
Member
Oh come on. A coin-toss is more predictable than Kuwabara's opinion on episodes of Who, and that shit is random as fuck.
I would like to think I'm slightly more consistent than that.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
True indeed. Couldn't pass on the opening, though.
GodParticle
Member
Almost fell asleep during that one. At least next week looks kind of interesting
I don't see how the whole eventual peace between Zygons and humans will happen if the whole point is Zygons are pretending to be human. Like how would anyone go about revealing all the body snatcher nonsense going on without mass panic and a complete loss of faith in the British government.
The reason, as given on screen, was to make her a very public, visible hostage Bonnie could threaten to make the Doctor do as she wished.
Red Arremer
Member
So I decided to watch the 60s series. I was going to skip all of the incomplete ones that only have audio/still images or not all episodes, but I'd like to ask if there are any of the incomplete ones that I should absolutely watch (or rather, listen to) despite that?
(Anything from Pertwee/Third Doctor onwards is being or has been watched, we're only talking about the first 2 Doctors)
(Anything from Pertwee/Third Doctor onwards is being or has been watched, we're only talking about the first 2 Doctors)
Broken Joystick
At least you can talk. Who are you?
He already kissed one Zygon before, he just wanted to know before he accidentally kissed another.
But I think he just wanted to know. He doesn't like not knowing.
tonysidaway
Member
Yes, obviously.
StalkerUKCG
Banned
Wonkey first part and poor opening to the 2nd part but it wrapped up really really well. Having all the episodes this season be 2 parters has been justified by this episode alone. What would have been a very poor monster of the week episode like "Cold War" turned into a really good bundle of episodes all due to the fact they had enough time to get everything done and sufficiently exposised.
This might be my favorite season in a while to be honest. A few episodes have been poor but pairing them to strong episodes lessens the blow.
This might be my favorite season in a while to be honest. A few episodes have been poor but pairing them to strong episodes lessens the blow.
Exterminieren
Banned
Setting aside the Daleks for the moment... Are the Zygons the most successful monster revival modern Who has done?
I'm not even talking visual design here, I'm talking thematic relevance and actually making good use of the monster's concept. The only ones that I reckon have come close are the Sontarans, and that's for Strax and Strax alone.
I'm not even talking visual design here, I'm talking thematic relevance and actually making good use of the monster's concept. The only ones that I reckon have come close are the Sontarans, and that's for Strax and Strax alone.
tonysidaway
Member
I think groups like this discussion sometimes run away with dodgy ideas that just seem right at the time. I see absolutely no convincing evidence that Clara is not completely and sparklingly alive. Doctor Who was obviously rather worried that she might not be, for a while. But she is.
Whether or not Clara is alive, Peter Cushing definitely isn't.
StalkerUKCG
Banned
Cold War is a medicore episode but the Ice Warriors are pretty solid still.
Sontarans got a real wealth of stuff in previous seasons and Strax is somewhat of a fan favorite
Cybermen have had some really good episodes
Autons are always shit
Macra are shit
Richard E Grant nailed the Great Intelligence if that counts
tonysidaway
Member
The Silurians were pretty amazing. The warriors as clones theme worked well with the extraordinary Neve McIntosh in a rather fetching reptile outfit with that stunningly good mask and makeup. Then the same actor comes back for her long run as Vastra, one of the most memorable of many Moffat characters.
It was also nice to see Stephen "paranoid android" Moore in SF again.
tonysidaway
Member
Oh this old thing again. I've called him Doctor Who since 1963. The Doctor has always sounded too awkwardly in-universe for me to buy it.
Aren't big speeches kinda a Harness thing too? Certainly they took up quite a lot of Kill the Moon.
Well she is alive, technically. Just that the Doctor has already seen her death and gone back in time. This is a time travel show.
We know she is going to die though (or at least that is what they want us to believe)
Red Arremer
Member
Cybermen were a lot better than Zygons, imo. I really am not feeling the Zygons as monsters. They are just so goofy looking.
I really liked the Salurians and the Great Intelligence.
ClivePwned
Member
I don't believe Clara will die. Rose didn't die but they carried on as if she had. Donna didn't die, but they carry on as if she had. Amy and Rory didn't die, just living in the past with some convoluted bullshit to say the Doctor can never go to New York and they were barely mentioned again.
Clara won't die. If Clara dies I will eat my cat.
I know that was a typo but I don't have any hats to hand. I do have a cat. A cat on borrowed time, it seems.
Clara won't die. If Clara dies I will eat my cat.
I know that was a typo but I don't have any hats to hand. I do have a cat. A cat on borrowed time, it seems.
JonathanEx
Member
If nothing else, you're about to spend a lot less money on cat food, so there are positives to you inevitably losing that bet.
tonysidaway
Member
At this rate, if Who fans had their drothers they'd chase all the best writers off. I'm not kidding in the least.
Is any of that a spoiler?
I'm getting a "Doctor Who steps out of the shower, Clara never existed and Oswin Oswald is still a heroically dead dalek" vibe. That all sounds wide of the mark. But if that's the kind of storyline you expect to see, I can understand why you might be a bit pissed off about this series as a whole. On the plus side,
Handles is back!
Exterminieren
Banned
The Cybermen still haven't had a modern episode that makes good on their premise. Too often the focus has been upon them as a conquering race of robots, rather than a twisted version of humanity. Honestly, I think the closest that the modern show has come to nailing them is Dark Water, and they were clearly wayyyy down that episode's list of priorities.
Unfortunately, the Silurians were hobbled right out of the gate by The Hungry Earth and Cold Blood being crap, and one of that two-parter's biggest missteps is the fact that it never convincingly nailed the Silurians as a legitimate race with a legitimate greivance, in the way they nailed with the Zygons the last few weeks. I like Vastra, but she doesn't really need to be a Silurian for her character to work- with Strax, on the other hand, his Sontaran nature is right at the character's core, even if it just means that it's being subverted for the sake of comedy.
I thought The Great Intelligence frankly could have been any disembodied monster, and his petty grudge against the Doctor in series 7 didn't really have anything to do with the entity as we understood it in the classic series. Richard E Grant played the part with good malice, and his various henchmen were effective, but I'd be hard-pressed to call it a good monster revival.
tonysidaway
Member
It's complete bollocks. Sometimes that happens. Like that time I thought The Impossible Astronaut, shown at Easter weekend in 2011, was a passion play (no really.)
tonysidaway
Member
Actually I recall that I found their original design, reminiscent of NHS bedsocks and gauze as it was, very spooky. The simple acting technique of holding the mouth open while their speech is played off camera is still quite chilling in its effect. The Robot outfit and the Darth Vader voice never worked as well.
Red Arremer
Member
I believe that the Rise of the Cybermen/Age of Steel two-parter was really amazingly great and it does sell that premise of yours. The Cybermen were created by this one dude, and they decided to upgrade him too because he was old and frail and sick. Obviously the conquering the world aspect was part of it too, but you also have characters like alt world Jackie getting upgraded, or some of the Cybermen gaining back their human memories.
I liked Hungry Earth/Cold Blood even though it was pretty weak. I enjoyed the whole "represent the best of mankind" thing, and how the mother snapped and killed the hostage. The resolve was dumb, but the way there was pretty decent I felt.
Problem I have with the Zygons that even with the upgraded visuals, they still look like they belong in the 70s. Even the shittiest looking monsters in the revived series don't look as goofy as the Zygons do.
But it's not only the looks. I really wanted to like the premise and the idea behind a shapeshifter race's colony on Earth, but the ceasefire is just such a flimsy peace.
Someone pointed out that the second anyone found out about the Zygons being secretly on Earth and them having to snatch bodies to keep their human shape (remember, it's 20 million of them), people would freak the fuck out and anarchy would ensue.
This whole "conspiracy" would have to be either extremely massive and involve basically the entire world's governments - which would make it impossible to keep the Zygons a secret -, or the only people in the know would be UNIT and the Zygons, which would massively destabilize the planet and potentially lead to a massive conflict with a complete destruction of UNIT and the Zygon colonists if it ever came out. Or the Zygons would have to be exiled into one particular location, which of course didn't happen since they were spread across the globe.
"President of the World" or not, the Doctor surely would not have the ability to keep this a secret without either risking the eradication of his assets and the Zygons, or without it leaking out and causing a massive stir.
And due to the secrecy, this "peace" was doomed to fail from the start, no matter how you look at it, and the solution to it was extremely flimsy. I am actually genuinely surprised that the writers decided that they would have a Zygon extremist faction be the spark of the potential conflict, and not some humans finding out that there's aliens shapeshifters among them and becoming hostile.
They could've easily made the Zygons, and the brewing conflict between humans and Zygons over the planet despite the ceasefire, a lot more believable. Add to this the really poor writing of the first part, and the silly hoops the writers jumped through to explain why, say, Clara had to be brought along to nod at whatever the Doctor said - the Zygon revival really fell flat on its face for me.
The very first conversation with the Silurians in the new series comes close to getting it right but then they just never follow through on it. It does two things that I really liked though.
- It frames the conflict as "We were here first, we don't care that we've been gone for millions of years, this is our land"
- Alaya taunts the Doctor with "I will gladly die for my cause, what will you sacrifice for yours". He doesn't respond, he just flashes her this look and quietly walks away.
Dr Zhivago
Member
That is how it started, Zygon ISIS reacted to what happened in New Mexico.
R_thanatos
Member
i'm conflict by this episode.
First the obvious retcon of the plane was bollocks ( but expected )..and then they act like , "why did she gave you that much time before shooting the plane" and then we've got some non-answer.
Pointing plot holes and then saying " i don't care about the answer" is dumb.
The zygoons want to cause panic but we saw none of that ( missed opportunity )
The doctor speech was magnificent , the highlight of the episode for sure ..it just saved this episode from being so boring.
Clara ..well clara is ..how should i say it pointless as a character in this episode. It's almost as if they couldn't do a scene with both of them talking in the same space and the used tricks , but as a result her involvement in this episode is sooooooooo tragicly boring and uninteresting.
Osgood was great as a character however ...so started so weak in her presence yet she was great here.
TRUTH OR CONSEQUENCES <<< what a load of bullsh*t ... What a waste of time with that subplot
this episode was'nt bad on his own , but as a 2 part episode , the whole arc is just ... Disapointing.
The best ep this season is the girl who lived, the rest was just meh
First the obvious retcon of the plane was bollocks ( but expected )..and then they act like , "why did she gave you that much time before shooting the plane" and then we've got some non-answer.
Pointing plot holes and then saying " i don't care about the answer" is dumb.
The zygoons want to cause panic but we saw none of that ( missed opportunity )
The doctor speech was magnificent , the highlight of the episode for sure ..it just saved this episode from being so boring.
Clara ..well clara is ..how should i say it pointless as a character in this episode. It's almost as if they couldn't do a scene with both of them talking in the same space and the used tricks , but as a result her involvement in this episode is sooooooooo tragicly boring and uninteresting.
Osgood was great as a character however ...so started so weak in her presence yet she was great here.
TRUTH OR CONSEQUENCES <<< what a load of bullsh*t ... What a waste of time with that subplot
this episode was'nt bad on his own , but as a 2 part episode , the whole arc is just ... Disapointing.
The best ep this season is the girl who lived, the rest was just meh
Osgood asked that question because she didn't know. We as the audience did know however because we saw Clara using the mental link to delay Bonnie pulling the trigger.
It wasn't a plot hole at all. And it wasn't a question that needed answering because we saw it happen.
If this is the case then I imagine that its been a series-long thread of attempting to sew a seed that might change things. Like the mercy line.
R_thanatos
Member
I still don't like the way it was handled. i don't like that the doctor himself didn't pick on those clues himself.( yeah i know that the explanation is that he was troubled with the perspective of clara death but still )
Just as long as you're not secretly WOTAN!
tonysidaway
Member
I thought the sight of a couple of very blasé Londoners showing complete apathy in the face of a panicking Zygon was about right. Then you see the video on screen and as a Londoner I get a "oh so what are they trying to advertise this week?" reflex. It gave me a shocked laugh of self-recognition.
I don't know where this stuff is coming from. There's certainly no evidence of it in the show.