Freewheelin'
Member
Six or seven really good episodes there
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Doctor Who Series 9 |OT| Let Zygons Be Zygons
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tonysidaway
Member
Yes, it's no reflection on the quality. Doctor Who has a really amazing record of excellence within the constraints of family entertainment.
It tried really hard to sell it, the production was fine, but to me it might as well have been a bunch of characters stumbling around in the dark, saying how scared they were of the dark, till one turned the lights on saying they knew where the switch was all along but aren't you scared of the dark now!
It's cheap, and undoes the story it was trying to tell rather than enrich it. If anything it's a get out of jail free card for bad story-telling, just with the writer inside the story saying how clever he is and the Doctor telling you it doesn't matter.
I'm glad you enjoyed it, but it was this series' Forest Of The Night for me. The whole thing was off.
tonysidaway
Member
This is another case of praising with faint damns. In the Forest of the Night is hard not to love. Kids wandering around in a forest in the middle of London and saving the world with the help of trees. Instant classic.
Yes, well your love of that one has always been a bit of a mystery to me.
Implausible to the point of not caring about anything, an impotent Doctor straight after his long-delayed "I am the Doctor!" moment in Flatline, and a Clara determined again to wipe out humanity despite being a teacher with a duty of care.
Episodes too built round singular ideas often go wrong, and in this one it was a twist with no concern for the story.
APZonerunner
Member
I'm massively curious about this, and I'm wondering if you could expand on some of these? I ask because in particular Father's Day, The Impossible Planet/The Satan Pit and The Waters of Mars are three of my favourite New Who episodes, and actually The Impossible Planet/The Satan Pit is one of my go-to recommendations if somebody wants a vertical slice of all the weird different things Doctor Who can be when they haven't seen the show before. Specifically I tend to recommend that and Human Nature, topped off with Blink. If they like all three, I suggest they hop back to 'Rose' and start watching - because I feel across the three you get slices of everything - corridor running, prosthetic (and CGI) aliens, space, time travel earth, social commentary, and two different types of Doctor/companion relationships...
For what it's worth, the ones I think of and wouldn't want to watch again are pretty much limited to Fear Her, Planet of the Dead, The Lodger (and its sequel), Curse of the Black Spot and probably Kill the Moon, all of which I found to be cringeworthy (though the desert imagery in Planet of the Dead does a great deal to rescue some of it).
tonysidaway
Member
I don't think any of those stories I listed above are bad. If there is one predominant theme it is that I tend to find the visuals unimaginative, particularly the gargoyles of Father's Day and the angry goat man of Satan Pit. 42 overworks a Trivial Pursuit gag. I eventually grew weary of the water monster thing in Waters of Mars.
These dislikes are all due to my personal idiosyncrasies. I can see why others would enjoy watching them, they're all fine episodes.
tonysidaway
Member
I don't even understand what you're talking about. This critique looks like some well worn phrases that you have worked out in your head, but I've no idea how they relate to the story.
tonysidaway
Member
Be my guest. Please expand your critique. It sounds like you thought the plot rang false.
Of course it rang false, from everything disappearing with no trace, to everyone conveniently forgetting, to girls appearing out of bushes for no reason at all other than "Isn't that nice!".
The whole story was an implausible idea that dragged everything else down with it, with the Doctor suddenly sitting back and just hoping for the best, Clara inexplicably taking children to their doom, and a child that isn't mentally ill and off her meds but special!
Utter rubbish, unless you're an ageing hippy who really wants to hug a tree in London. Similar to this week's episode going for atmosphere isn't enough when the short-comings are so stark.
tonysidaway
Member
Integration of special needs children in education is perhaps not often seen in drama, but it's part of this charming and beautifully observed episode. The children's parts in Series 8 were all well written and gave the young actors plenty to work with.
I have seen a few complain on this forum that they don't know who the girl at the end is or what she's doing there. You also talk of Clara "taking the children to their doom."
These criticisms are, I think, largely the result of inattentive viewing. The answers are and always were in the script. First Clara on the dilemma of whether to rescue the children or to leave them:
"Taking them where? What are you going do with them? Leave them on an asteroid? Find a space academy for the gifted and talented? They just want their mums and dads, and they're never going to stop wanting them."
Next, Maebh's broadcast message to the people of Earth:
"We'd like to reassure you that the situation will be rectified very soon. Please don't be scared. And please don't chop, spray or harm the trees. They're here to help. Be less scared. Be more trusting. Oh, and Annabel Arden, please come home."
And yes, if you don't like London's nearly ubiquitous trees and parks I can well imagine the episode would be something of a trial.
http://www.chakoteya.net/DoctorWho/34-10.html
tonysidaway
Member
Well they did save the world, you know. Bringing a lost sister back just took a little bit longer.
Yes, I'm fully aware of the explanations and what was said in the episode. I just don't think they fly, things were totally out of character, and the episode amounts to nothing more than wandering around a forest until everything is all tickety boo again. Because trees.
For Clara's quote to actually be in context of what was going on we have to add "So I'd rather they were dead" on the end. Which isn't quite so moving.
The Doctor after his great little speech in Flatline is suddenly "Oh well, that's it, sod it then".
And integrating special needs children can probably be done better than saying there's nothing wrong, skip those meds, go crazy, it's just the trees talking!
It's an awful episode, and was about the worst one possible to follow Flatline which managed to juggle an inventive idea, story, humour and great character development of both Clara and the Doctor so well.
tonysidaway
Member
I was under the impression that you were unaware of the reasons, not that you knew them but disagreed. I don't expect to agree with the reasoning of all characters' actions in drama. Because Frank Cottrell Boyce's personal philosophy is very different from mine I would be very surprised if I did. And that's okay. I don't need a writer to be exactly like me. I like it when the writer can express his ideas eloquently, even if I think they're tosh. And being essentially fairytale, Doctor Who is supposed to be enjoyable tosh. This isn't Death of a Salesman.
And of course you're right, the humans do really spend the better part of 45 minutes on what Clara calls an "enjoyable walk" while the trees do their stuff. It is a most unusual and charming episode, clearly inspired by the pastoral interludes of some of Shakespeare's plays (mostly his silly ones.)
In the Forest of the Night is one of the worst episodes of Doctor Who. It even features the dangerous lesson of "Don't take your meds, listen to the voices" so children can stay schizophrenic. Every reoccurring character is out of character in the episode, with only Danny being the closest to how his character usually is. While I am not a huge fan of a few popular episodes in Series 8, I absolutely cannot see how there is anything redeemable in "In the Forest of the Night". I say that as someone who has had the misfortune of seeing the episode literally four times. Everyone I have seen it with has had the same reaction of "what the hell/why", especially at the stupid revelation of the missing sister that was tacked on to the end. I assume the reason is "We mentioned a missing sister, so naturally we have to have her appear for no reason". It is on the same level of Love and Monsters/Fear Her for me, as even Capaldi seems to have his charisma drained from him.
ClivePwned
Member
In the Forest of the Shite.
Maddocks
Member
After a few rewatches of forest, I have to say the only thing that really stands out and the one thing I liked was the Doctor and Clara's talk at the tardis when he says he can save her and she doesn't want to be the last of her kind and how he is willing to die with her but she tells him no and to save the next earth pretty much.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
I got that feeling a couple times in this last episode as well.
Beaniedude
Member
My favourite part of Forest of the Night was when the Doctor used his sonic to increase the gravity field around the kid so they could see the thoughts of the trees.
I can't remember if that is what he actually did but I am sure it was something equally inane and stupid.
I can't remember if that is what he actually did but I am sure it was something equally inane and stupid.
aHebrewMenagerie
Member
God, I miss RTD.... 
tonysidaway
Member
In the Forest of the Night really does generate quite strong negative responses in this forum, so I thought I'd look at how its AI (appreciation index) compared to others.
At 83 it's not the highest, but it's higher than the sublime Listen (82), the very watchable romp Robot of Sherwood (82), and Kill the Moon (82), and the same AI as the second part of the series finale Death in Heaven. The highest AIs (85) were for episodes like Flatline, Time Heist and Dark Water.
So this one seems to have had no trouble finding its audience.
I'm none the wiser as to why it's so hated by posters in this forum. I usually attribute this kind of mass antipathy to fan culture. Perhaps that's unkind, but I avoid thinking of myself as a fan because the culture seems to be prone to groupthink and a hostile, proprietorial attitude to the producers and writers.
At 83 it's not the highest, but it's higher than the sublime Listen (82), the very watchable romp Robot of Sherwood (82), and Kill the Moon (82), and the same AI as the second part of the series finale Death in Heaven. The highest AIs (85) were for episodes like Flatline, Time Heist and Dark Water.
So this one seems to have had no trouble finding its audience.
I'm none the wiser as to why it's so hated by posters in this forum. I usually attribute this kind of mass antipathy to fan culture. Perhaps that's unkind, but I avoid thinking of myself as a fan because the culture seems to be prone to groupthink and a hostile, proprietorial attitude to the producers and writers.
SigmasonicX
Member
APZonerunner
Member
I just thought it was one of the lowest qualities of writing the new series has exhibited, to be honest. The execution was fine. Kill the Moon at least had some solid sequences on its side; Forest was just weak all over - probably the weakest since Fear Her.
I don't really attribute it to the fan culture and I think it's relatively reductive to exclusively look at it from that angle, as I knew I inherently hated that episode within 30 seconds of it ending - before it ended, even - and there were posts in this thread from me to that tune before any fan consensus truly emerged. I expect better out of the show than that episode provided, basically.
I do think some of the wider rhetoric about the series and about certain eras IS often driven by general groupthink, though, and dumb battle lines being drawn between fans of certain eras.
God, I miss RTD....
I don't.
ClivePwned
Member
No, it's because many people saw it and thought "that's utter rubbish."
It's not just this forum but also Gallifrey Base and Reddit that seemed to hate it. Sometimes the views of the more dedicated, Internet Doctor Who viewership differs from the general public and that's fine.
Different demographics like different things. Some people think Listen is genius, for others that episode might go over their whole head. Some might think Forest is a great light-hearted adventure for children, others might think it's an episode that goes too far in that direction and feels patronizing.
I don't think it's too hard to understand why certain episodes are so divisive. All it takes is to read a good forum post about it, which there must be a heck of a lot for Forest.
Though it looks like both the public and the forum posters agree on the last Gatiss episode.
Yeah, that one too. Sad when they can't give Capaldi room to shine. Or material, I guess.
It's not just this forum that doesn't like it, the episode's reception was always mixed. I don't think you are the only one in this forum that has enjoyed the episode. But yeah, no matter how politely you put it, it is pretty rude to attribute a popular opinion on this forum to a hivemind-like mentality. Not to mention that we are not all hostile, entitled posters who want everyone in charge to be (sometimes literally) axed. We all have our own opinions. We are, in this thread, in a very specific niche. Most of the posters here are going to be adults and none of them are going to be as young as episodes like "In the Forest of the Night" panders to. So it isn't a huge surprise that we don't all enjoy it.
It is kind of pompous that you try not to think of yourself as a fan because you don't like a the culture that you perceive in this thread. Just because you aren't the type of fan to complain about everything doesn't mean your not a fan. I personally find your posts, even if I don't agree with them all the time, to be genuinely and delightfully sincere. You are a fan of the show, I have seen it in posts with neat little facts and interviews that you share. Just because you are on the friendlier end of the spectrum doesn't make you any less of a fan, so if I were you I wouldn't try and think otherwise.
tonysidaway
Member
Of course it isn't. I get to decide whether I'm a fan. I'm happier to call myself a lifelong viewer. It's not just this thread, I think the whole fan culture is best avoided, though I'm happy we can all meet here and discuss our opinions.
A couple of posters have responded to my last comment on AI by saying that a lot of people didn't like In the Forest of the Night. I think the quite respectable AI (slightly better than the critically acclaimed Listen) answers that.
I think the tendency to have pet hates, which shows in unusually vehement references to actors, writers and others, is a uniquely fannish trait. It's noticeable in other fan groups, who in that regard have more in common with Doctor Who fandom then with their respective general viewers. There is also a kind of clumping effect: fans communicate these pet hates through social media, and formerly through fanzines and meetups. It's to be avoided. The hostility directed at Christopher Eccleston is particularly absurd. You'd think any fan would recognise him as the actor who brought a beloved character back, but instead mostly he's attacked here merely for wanting to move on and have a career. I know he's also very highly regarded, but that's easier to understand. There seems to be an implicit assumption that fans own the franchise in some way, and this results in some quite alarming displays of unquestioned entitlement.
You're a fan, it's not a dirty word, and as with most things there are 2 sides to it. For unquestioning entitlement there is also unquestioning reverence. Neither are very objective.
And you are most definitely a Doctor Who fan by referring to AI figures, as no one else mentions them ever
Forest has problems on numerous levels, people have explained why. Just seeing those complaints as examples of what makes it so magical may make it hard to understand, but it's like giving Prometheus a pass because it's so pretty and mysterious.
If anything that plays into who wrote/directed it more, and indeed you are the only one to name the writer as if it's almost your duty to appreciate his episode and not question it.
Doctor Who is a unique show, with a unique format, it's why it has endured so long. It also means it's all over the place, and it's not such a bad thing really. If anything it's part of the charm, you really do never know what you are going to get next.
EvilRedEye
Member
I hadn't looked at the AI scores in years until now. I'm surprised how resilient they've been, only really taking a knock with Love & Monsters and Sleep No More. I wonder how much that's people going "This is different, I don't like it" rather than "This is rubbish" as they're among the episodes that depart the most from the usual formula.
A bit surprising they've never, ever risen above 85 since Capaldi started. Doesn't seem normal compared to previous series.
A bit surprising they've never, ever risen above 85 since Capaldi started. Doesn't seem normal compared to previous series.
APZonerunner
Member
One thing to keep in mind about AI is it's a scale that gets more difficult with scope; it's significantly more difficult to nail a high AI the higher the audience figure gets, as you basically need to get a higher average with more people. This is why a lot of shit daytime TV watched by 200,000 people like 'Doctors' or 'Bargain Hunt' regularly posts AIs in the late 80s or even early 90s; because it serves its very small, dedicated audience - often elderly - very well.
Once you hit about 8m, the average AI really begins to plummet. This is one of the things that makes Voyage of the Damned getting 14 million viewers and an 86 impressive and Journey's End's 10.5 million / 91 (a Doctor Who all time high shared by The Stolen Earth, part one of the same story) even more so. The Stolen Earth / Journey's End really is some incredibly bizarre TV in how successful it was despite how weighed down it was with the weight of not just its own lore, but two spin offs as well. I dare say it's the like of which we might not see again for decades in that respect.
Once you hit about 8m, the average AI really begins to plummet. This is one of the things that makes Voyage of the Damned getting 14 million viewers and an 86 impressive and Journey's End's 10.5 million / 91 (a Doctor Who all time high shared by The Stolen Earth, part one of the same story) even more so. The Stolen Earth / Journey's End really is some incredibly bizarre TV in how successful it was despite how weighed down it was with the weight of not just its own lore, but two spin offs as well. I dare say it's the like of which we might not see again for decades in that respect.
Ignatz Mouse
Banned
It depresses me greatly that Voyage of the Damned is rated high. Seeing outside the scope of event hype, it's just a dismal, terrible, horrible, awful, stupid story.
APZonerunner
Member
I've always found it to be a perfectly fine story, to be honest. I think it's a fairly tight script; the main problem from the perspective of them trying to 'do' a traditional disaster movie is they wait too long to start killing people off and then kill half the core cast in 10 minutes, three of them in one location -- which admittedly even RTD hated, but budget's budget. It's not necessarily a great episode of Doctor Who being typical Doctor Who, I concede, but the beauty of Doctor Who is every now and then, especially for events, it can do something zany and not really be Doctor Who. In that weird way, I think it's incredibly fitting that it was that episode that ultimately ended up being dedicated to Verity Lambert; it's an episode that shows how the show is so flexible, which is how it survived. And she finally got a Doctor she liked (as she didn't think Eccleston 'fit').
Important clarity: I also think the same thing about Love & Monsters.
Important clarity: I also think the same thing about Love & Monsters.
You do get to decide if you are fan, but you already have by being a lifelong viewer. It's not like you are sitting there begrudgingly watching the show because the internet may be mean. It's like you are saying that you aren't a motorist because those in your community drive recklessly, yet you still drive every day.
A lot of episodes that are generally not well received can still score high or decently on the AI. That doesn't excuse a medley of fundamental problems that these episodes can have, which is why they often have at least mixed reviews.
davidcotton
Member
As a teaser Big Finish have put up a clip from the forth coming Tenth Doctor and Donna stories on their site.
Kid Kamikaze10
Member
Neither do I. Frankly, every showrunner in Doctor Who has a moment where they run out of juice. RTD had it, and I think Moffrat's is coming very soon.
I'm a Moffat fan-and I think he's run out of juice sadly. It's someone else's time. The show needs a shot in the arm. Toby Whithouse please.
infiniteloop
Member
Yup, will always be a big fan of Moffat's stuff but he's scraping the barrel now. Hope series 10 is his last.
The show is good, I enjoy it and I love the cast-but it lacks the "Energy" that Seasons 5,6 and 7 had. It's a good show-but I'm not sure I would classify it as "Fun to watch" any more.
funkystudent
Member
I think this season was Moffrat running out of steam.
Its been a real dull season full of ideas that felt like attempts to redo old ideas. Say what you will about his previous seasons as show runner but this go around it feels like he isnt even trying
It definitely needs an injection of something, although I think this series is more of a problem of not being sure how to position the show and Capaldi.
I get the feeling there was some pushback on the darker and more character heavy series 8, and in retreating from that the show has got a bit lost, whereas it seemed quite sure of itself last time round. Even with the expected missteps.
The show's fallen back on gimmicks really, the sonic sunglasses, the guitar, and yes the 2-parters which have hindered the stories more than helping them. Even the cue-cards, which before was an ever present aspect of his personality and part of the stories in his relationship with Clara, just appeared for a joke and then this supposed side of him completely disappeared again.
There's nothing holding it all together unlike last time, and it's frustrating because Capaldi is so damn good at making the best of whatever he's given but he's just not being given the best to work with. He's managing to be my favourite Doctor just for being Capaldi, if that makes any sense.
Clara too should now have been this addicted to travelling, thinking she was the Doctor, and putting herself needlessly in danger character setting up her exit. Instead she's back to just being there again, with just hints here and there, and turning evil for a story rather than any ongoing development.
Even if the finale is spectacular, the word hybrid has amazing significance, and the whole series turns out to be back to front, I can't help thinking this series would have been a lot better if it had just carried on the way series 8 was doing things.
I get the feeling there was some pushback on the darker and more character heavy series 8, and in retreating from that the show has got a bit lost, whereas it seemed quite sure of itself last time round. Even with the expected missteps.
The show's fallen back on gimmicks really, the sonic sunglasses, the guitar, and yes the 2-parters which have hindered the stories more than helping them. Even the cue-cards, which before was an ever present aspect of his personality and part of the stories in his relationship with Clara, just appeared for a joke and then this supposed side of him completely disappeared again.
There's nothing holding it all together unlike last time, and it's frustrating because Capaldi is so damn good at making the best of whatever he's given but he's just not being given the best to work with. He's managing to be my favourite Doctor just for being Capaldi, if that makes any sense.
Clara too should now have been this addicted to travelling, thinking she was the Doctor, and putting herself needlessly in danger character setting up her exit. Instead she's back to just being there again, with just hints here and there, and turning evil for a story rather than any ongoing development.
Even if the finale is spectacular, the word hybrid has amazing significance, and the whole series turns out to be back to front, I can't help thinking this series would have been a lot better if it had just carried on the way series 8 was doing things.