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[The Technomancer]

The finale is actually pretty great, especially how meh the last two seasons have been. Kuwabara doesn't like because he: a) hates Moffat, and b) prefers shitty social commentary stories to good but subtext-free stories.

I would like to know what's good about this story. I thought it was enjoyable immediately after watching it, but then I tried to think about it and I just...couldn't. There was nothing to really think about. Kuwabara hit the nail on the head when he said that this pulls out like every tool in the Moffat toolbox, and I'm so tired of them by now.

 

[KuwabaraTheMan]

The finale is actually pretty great, especially how meh the last two seasons have been. Kuwabara doesn't like because he: a) hates Moffat, and b) prefers shitty social commentary stories to good but subtext-free stories.

You know, you could disagree with me without resorting to personal attacks. I don't mind people disagreeing with my opinions (I would have stopped coming to this thread long ago if that were the case), but it would be nice if people would simply disagree with the opinions rather than feeling the need to take cheap shots.

 

[Exterminieren]

(And I don't know if Mark Gatiss is a racist, and have never claimed to know that. I do believe that he's a jingoist, and a very reactionary writer, and I standby my thoughts on what he's written in the past.)

Not content with ruining the Great Intelligence, Moffat calls up his buddy Gatiss and asks him if he could kindly ruin the Ice Warriors. What we get is an episode where an Ice Warrior appears, acts nothing like an Ice Warrior, and gets taken out of the traditional look so that we can get some sort of weird thing that has no connection with this proud and great race.

A story set during the Cold War involving the Ice Warriors should have been good. Except it was written by Mark Gatiss, so we got a bunch of one dimensional characters in a story that didn't really say anything and had me constantly checking the clock. I also really hated how we had a whole bit about how the Ice Warrior couldn't be talked to by any of the smelly Russians so they had to send in the one British character to talk to him. Yeah, they said it was because they were all soldiers, but given that Gatiss has written jingoistic and xenophobic Doctor Who stories in the past, it's a pretty troubling implication.

After this episode, I feel comfortable in saying that Gatiss is the worst writer to work on the show in its 49 years and 5 months on the air. At least Pip and Jane Baker's stories generally avoided being racist and were just bad. This episode actually had me missing Moffat, and that says a lot.

OK, sorry, he's xenophobic and writes racist scripts. My mistake, I've completely misrepresented you.

You know, you could disagree with me without resorting to personal attacks. I don't mind people disagreeing with my opinions (I would have stopped coming to this thread long ago if that were the case), but it would be nice if people would simply disagree with the opinions rather than feeling the need to take cheap shots.

When the opinions come wrapped up in cheap shots, it's really rather difficult.

The Technomancer often shares similar sentiments to you expressed in a far less kneejerk manner, and I don't see him getting grief.

 

[Ein Bear]

John Hurt is fucking awesome.

That being said, I can't help but feel like an opportunity has been missed.

- You have a 'lost' Doctor, played by Richard E. Grant (the Shalka Doctor)
- You have a villain who infects the Doctor's entire timeline, played by Richard E. Grant
- You introduce a 'lost' Doctor, who is implied to be somewhat villainous.

Kinda feels like they could have done something cool with that, and have Richard E. Grant play the newly introduced Doctor.

 

[Eteric Rice]

"On the fields of Trenzalore,"
So just the planet

"at the fall of the eleventh"
The Doctors grave

"when no living creature can speak falsely or fail to answer"
I don't understand this. Nothing was keeping the doctor from lying or not speaking other than how he cared for the trio. Other creatures could lie. I think its just for dramatic effect

"a Question will be asked, a question that must never, ever be answered."
Doctor Who?

It kind of falls flat when you think about it. Since the doctor could just not answer it and even if he did answer it then its just going to be his name. I don't see why it can NEVER EVER be answered. River asked and he told her. Its not some kind of Carrionite "There's power in words" kind of deal.

I think it's because if he were to answer, someone would be able to access his grave. In the grave, you could enter every part of the Doctor's life and kill him, and/or stop everything good he's ever done, including saving the universe multiple times.

Someone would literally be able to undo the universe, or the Doctor himself. I'd say that it's pretty important that he not say it.

And obviously it's doable, since even humans were able to figure out how to time travel (time agency), even if it's limited.

His name is a password to his life of sorts.

 

[Future Foundation]

So, I'm doing something I almost never do - watching the early replay of tonight's episode. People have articulated this much better than I have so I'll just say this was such a fun finale. Goddamn, I am hyped like hell for the 50th.

Also, it was so great to a) see Gallifrey and b) hear This is Gallifrey again.

 

[Blader]

You know, you could disagree with me without resorting to personal attacks. I don't mind people disagreeing with my opinions (I would have stopped coming to this thread long ago if that were the case), but it would be nice if people would simply disagree with the opinions rather than feeling the need to take cheap shots.

What personal attack? I'm not going to dig through all the Who threads to find and link to the specific post, but I'm pretty positive that you've said before you prefer the show when it's delivering some kind of social commentary as opposed to being just entertainment. I say "shitty" because I also remember you citing Gridlock as some hallmark of modern storytelling. Now maybe the teleplay for that ep is some brilliant work of literature, but as it was shot and broadcast, Gridlock is pretty poor by any measure.

I wouldn't neccessarily bag on RTD as a whole though, I do like some of his stories. Midnight being the obvious one, but I always really dug Smith and Jones for some reason. Maybe that was my Freema crush though.

 

[Exterminieren]

What personal attack? I'm not going to dig through all the Who threads to find and link to the specific post, but I'm pretty positive that you've said before you prefer the show when it's delivering some kind of social commentary as opposed to being just entertainment. I say "shitty" because I also remember you citing Gridlock as some hallmark of modern storytelling. Now maybe the teleplay for that ep is some brilliant work of literature, but as it was shot and broadcast, Gridlock is pretty poor by any measure.

...

Damnit.

 

[AlphaDragoon]

Goddamn that was good. The Clara payoff was well worth it and full of emotion of both her part and the Doctor's. Don't much like River but that was a nice way to send her off.

 

[googleplex]

Ah, so Matt Smith is the twelfth doctor, and doctor eleven was a disorderly (hurt) doctor.

So when is Matt Smith going to regenerate into Hugh Laurie. Because that would be awesome.

I prefer to think.of it like this.

Matt is the twelfth incarnation but the eleventh Doctor.

The Valyard, The Time Load Victorious, and Hurt's incarnation, are all regenerations but Not Doctors.

 

[Savitar]

I found it to be an enjoyable episode overall and it was pretty neat how they worked in some of the old doctors, some came off better than the others but it was cool to see how they tried. I can't really complain overall.

 

[The Technomancer]

I prefer to think.of it like this.

Matt is the twelfth incarnation but the eleventh Doctor.

The Valyard, The Time Load Victorious, and Hurt's incarnation, are all regenerations but Not Doctors.

Wait, was this an actual regeneration or some shit? Wasn't it just 10 going nuts? And it lasted for all of like 20 minutes, until he saw that lady shoot herself.

 

[googleplex]

Wait, was this an actual regeneration or some shit? Wasn't it just 10 going nuts? And it lasted for all of like 20 minutes, until he saw that lady shoot herself.

Sorry, no the Time Lord Victorious wasn't a new regeneration, but the 10th was well on his way.to becoming a different.person.

His name is a promise to the universe. If he declares himself Doctor, He's the Healer/Wise-man/Man who never carries a gun.

If he declares himself something else then he is.

 

[Htown]

Wait, was this an actual regeneration or some shit? Wasn't it just 10 going nuts? And it lasted for all of like 20 minutes, until he saw that lady shoot herself.

It was just basically 10 from when he made the decision to fuck the timeline on Mars until whatsherface committed suicide.

It always felt like he had decided that Time Lord Victorious was going to be the way he was going to continue to do things in the future, until she took the choice from him and he saw the precipice he was about to go over.

 

[KuwabaraTheMan]

Wait, was this an actual regeneration or some shit? Wasn't it just 10 going nuts? And it lasted for all of like 20 minutes, until he saw that lady shoot herself.

My understanding from those episodes was that the Doctor had continued on a darker path until the beginning of the End of Time when he shows up on the Ood Sphere (after trying to avoid them for awhile).

 

[Keyser Soze]

OH GOD. I can't watch the show until tomorrow. I accidentally clicked this thread, started reading a comment, realized where I was, and backed the fuck out of here. Only words I saw before bailing was "fucking putrid," which doesn't exactly instill confidence...

Avoiding spoilers is though.

You chose the right post to read if you were looking to avoid sensible finale discussion

 

[isny]

My understanding from those episodes was that the Doctor had continued on a darker path until the beginning of the End of Time when he shows up on the Ood Sphere (after trying to avoid them for awhile).

Man, you made me want to re-watch that scene, and that one scene was miles ahead of most of the episodes we got this season, sigh

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P-AW_IFHyUc

 

[HP_Wuvcraft]

Well, that was fucking putrid. At least the worst season in the 50 year history of the show is over.

I don't even know where to start with that pile of shit. I went in with low expectations and still found myself angry. About the only decent part of the episode was seeing some of the past Doctors briefly.

This was at the same time the most fanwanky episode ever, and the most continuity destroying. So, congrats on that, Moffat. Not happy with just steamrolling over classic continuity, he even contradicted The Doctor's Wife which was only one season ago. You'd think he would have stopped Gaiman from writing that if he had planned this out (hint: he hadn't).

We also get tons of Moffat's favorite tricks: people's memories being rewritten, timelines changing, fake deaths, and the Doctor being some all important figure in the universe. This episode has the Doctor's grave being the most dangerous place in the universe, and his name being the most powerful secret. It's absurd, and it's just the apex of all the ridiculous fetishization of the Doctor that Moffat has introduced in his time on the show. Gone are the days when the Doctor was just a wanderer through space and time trying to right some wrongs and explore the unknown. Nowadays, every story has to introduce some huge secrets about the Doctor and build him up as some sort of godlike figure who the whole universe revolves around.

What makes matters worse is that there is no reason to even care. Jenny and Strax aren't even characters in any sense of the word. There's no reason to care about their supposed deaths, especially since we all know by now that they'll be revived within minutes (and indeed they are). Clara makes a big sacrifice, but it would feel more meaningful if we had a more strongly developed relationship between her and the Doctor to lead up to this. However, we don't. Clara is nice and funny, but her personality has never been fleshed out strongly enough, and we have no real investment in the relationship between her and the Doctor. She exists to befuddle the Doctor rather to have a real relationship with him, so we can't really get too invested in any of this. Perhaps this would have worked better if this half season had spent most of their time developing the Doctor and Clara's friendship instead of having the Doctor obsess over her 'mystery' (which turns out to have a very boring explanation). To make matters worse, it takes forever from the Intelligence jumping into the Doctor's timeline to Clara doing it, despite it being immediately obvious that that's what will happen. If that time had been spent on Clara wrestling with that decision, it might work, but we spend most of that time with Vastra and Strax, and by the time we return to Clara she's already decided to do it, so any sort of drama from the scene is robbed right along with the pacing.

Then we get Moffat's carefully crafted middle finger to the fans of the series, and a promise that the 50th anniversary will also suck, and everyone who watched the episode is wondering why they even wasted their time.

Wow, so... uh... calm the fuck down?

If you're as big a fan of Who as you say you are, you'd know it was a show of Deus ex Machinas.

Seriously, trying to find a stream of continuity in Dr. Who is liking trying to prove God.

 

[RetroMG]

Freaking loved it. Rewatching it right now.

OK, so here is my theory on what happens now:

During the Time War, the Timelords were so caught up in the struggle against the Daleks that they transformed from a race of peaceful scholars into a race of warriors. We've been led to assume that the Doctor was not affected. John Hurt's Timelord suggests that this was not actually case. In fact, it may actually have been him who suggested the final sanction: The End of Time. He was granted the Moment, and was charged to initiate the End of Time. However, en route to the place where he would perform that task, he was attacked and regenerated into the Ninth Doctor. Returning to his senses, he used the Moment to destroy Daleks and Timelords alike, and to seal the Time War away behind a Time Lock.
By opening the Doctor's timeline, Clara and the Great Intelligence have opened a path for this dark image of the Doctor, (let's call him the Valeyard, for convenience,) to escape from the Time Lock into the world and wreak havoc - like the Master, but worse.

This is what the Silence were trying to prevent - the releasing of one of the greatest monsters in creation. (And yes, the fans go "blah blah Moffatt's Doctor has a God Complex." Whatever, I don't care.) They engineered the exploding TARDIS, which would have gotten the Doctor locked in the Pandorica - an elegant mirror to the evil locked in the Doctor's Tomb. Failing that, they created River Song to kill the Doctor - who not only failed in that mission, but actually ended up opening the tomb when the Doctor refused to.

(Do I think Moffatt really would have planned all this out? No. But it's still cool conceptually.)

The only flaw in this, (which I see now as I rewatch the ending,) is that John Hurt's Doctor doesn't really seem the Evil Mass Murderer type. He clearly believes what he did was right. Which, if this all turns out to be true, could still make him a very interesting villain.

EDIT: Rereading this, I realize I could have made this so much shorter. Sorry about that.

 

[KuwabaraTheMan]

Wow, so... uh... calm the fuck down?

If you're as big a fan of Who as you say you are, you'd know it was a show of Deus ex Machinas.

Seriously, trying to find a stream of continuity in Dr. Who is liking trying to prove God.

Well, there was the Daemons, and then I guess you could say The Time Monster, and then a bunch of new series episodes, but I wouldn't say there have been a whole lot of Deus ex machina in the history of the show (pre-Moffat, anyway). I'm probably forgetting one or two, but let's not exaggerate.

Yes, Doctor Who continuity is a clusterfuck. UNIT dating is a mess, Cybermen history is worse, and The Beast Below took a massive shit on the entire future earth chronology. I'm not upset that this episode doesn't fit in perfectly with continuity; I'm upset that Moffat was actively trying to fuck around with the history of the show, insert his own creation's into the past, and even contradict a story that was written while he was showrunner. With The Beast Below, I was pretty sure Moffat was just getting confused and misinterpreting when The Ark in Space took place, but this episode was a deliberate attack on the history of the show.

I can really think of no worse way to celebrate the 50 year history of the show than with some fanwanky garbage that makes the story about the Doctor and tries to rewrite the entire history of the series.

 

[Future Foundation]

Man, you made me want to re-watch that scene, and that one scene was miles ahead of most of the episodes we got this season, sigh

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P-AW_IFHyUc

All this reminds me of is how much of a goddamned hammy mess EoT Part One was.

 

[isny]

All this reminds me of is how much of a goddamned hammy mess EoT Part One was.

mmmm, ham

 

[PhoncipleBone]

All this reminds me of is how much of a goddamned hammy mess EoT Part One was.

Just part one? I would say both parts.

 

[KuwabaraTheMan]

Part One had that wonderful scene with the Doctor and Wilf talking, and it had that crazy cliffhanger. I don't think it was particularly hammy.

Part Two definitely veered there, however.

 

[ZoddGutts]

I feel that Moffat's time with Doctor Who should come to an end and have someone else take it crack at Doctor Who. Oh well here's hoping the 50th anniversary ep is good....

 

[Eteric Rice]

Freaking loved it. Rewatching it right now.

OK, so here is my theory on what happens now:

During the Time War, the Timelords were so caught up in the struggle against the Daleks that they transformed from a race of peaceful scholars into a race of warriors. We've been led to assume that the Doctor was not affected. John Hurt's Timelord suggests that this was not actually case. In fact, it may actually have been him who suggested the final sanction: The End of Time. He was granted the Moment, and was charged to initiate the End of Time. However, en route to the place where he would perform that task, he was attacked and regenerated into the Ninth Doctor. Returning to his senses, he used the Moment to destroy Daleks and Timelords alike, and to seal the Time War away behind a Time Lock.
By opening the Doctor's timeline, Clara and the Great Intelligence have opened a path for this dark image of the Doctor, (let's call him the Valeyard, for convenience,) to escape from the Time Lock into the world and wreak havoc - like the Master, but worse.

This is what the Silence were trying to prevent - the releasing of one of the greatest monsters in creation. (And yes, the fans go "blah blah Moffatt's Doctor has a God Complex." Whatever, I don't care.) They engineered the exploding TARDIS, which would have gotten the Doctor locked in the Pandorica - an elegant mirror to the evil locked in the Doctor's Tomb. Failing that, they created River Song to kill the Doctor - who not only failed in that mission, but actually ended up opening the tomb when the Doctor refused to.

(Do I think Moffatt really would have planned all this out? No. But it's still cool conceptually.)

The only flaw in this, (which I see now as I rewatch the ending,) is that John Hurt's Doctor doesn't really seem the Evil Mass Murderer type. He clearly believes what he did was right. Which, if this all turns out to be true, could still make him a very interesting villain.

EDIT: Rereading this, I realize I could have made this so much shorter. Sorry about that.

Close, but this is how I see it.

As he said, the name "The Doctor" is a promise. Like, to help people and what not. To bring out the best in people. To save people.

During the time war, he was forced to go against everything he believed. I'm assuming 8 was killed at some point during the time war, and became this Doctor. Except, because he committed atrocities beyond measure (murder, genocide, etc), every incarnation afterwards is trying to forget him. He is forsaken by his own selves, and by his own selves, is not worthy of the title/name, "The Doctor" because he went against everything the name stood for.

 

[BattleMonkey]

Well, that was fucking putrid. At least the worst season in the 50 year history of the show is over.

I don't even know where to start with that pile of shit. I went in with low expectations and still found myself angry. About the only decent part of the episode was seeing some of the past Doctors briefly.

This was at the same time the most fanwanky episode ever, and the most continuity destroying. So, congrats on that, Moffat. Not happy with just steamrolling over classic continuity, he even contradicted The Doctor's Wife which was only one season ago. You'd think he would have stopped Gaiman from writing that if he had planned this out (hint: he hadn't).

We also get tons of Moffat's favorite tricks: people's memories being rewritten, timelines changing, fake deaths, and the Doctor being some all important figure in the universe. This episode has the Doctor's grave being the most dangerous place in the universe, and his name being the most powerful secret. It's absurd, and it's just the apex of all the ridiculous fetishization of the Doctor that Moffat has introduced in his time on the show. Gone are the days when the Doctor was just a wanderer through space and time trying to right some wrongs and explore the unknown. Nowadays, every story has to introduce some huge secrets about the Doctor and build him up as some sort of godlike figure who the whole universe revolves around.

What makes matters worse is that there is no reason to even care. Jenny and Strax aren't even characters in any sense of the word. There's no reason to care about their supposed deaths, especially since we all know by now that they'll be revived within minutes (and indeed they are). Clara makes a big sacrifice, but it would feel more meaningful if we had a more strongly developed relationship between her and the Doctor to lead up to this. However, we don't. Clara is nice and funny, but her personality has never been fleshed out strongly enough, and we have no real investment in the relationship between her and the Doctor. She exists to befuddle the Doctor rather to have a real relationship with him, so we can't really get too invested in any of this. Perhaps this would have worked better if this half season had spent most of their time developing the Doctor and Clara's friendship instead of having the Doctor obsess over her 'mystery' (which turns out to have a very boring explanation). To make matters worse, it takes forever from the Intelligence jumping into the Doctor's timeline to Clara doing it, despite it being immediately obvious that that's what will happen. If that time had been spent on Clara wrestling with that decision, it might work, but we spend most of that time with Vastra and Strax, and by the time we return to Clara she's already decided to do it, so any sort of drama from the scene is robbed right along with the pacing.

Then we get Moffat's carefully crafted middle finger to the fans of the series, and a promise that the 50th anniversary will also suck, and everyone who watched the episode is wondering why they even wasted their time.

Agree mostly. The whole time adventure aspect really feels lost in favor of the Doctor worship. Doctor this doctor that, everything in the universe must revolve around the doctor. The whole fun aspect of the show just feels gone in favor of trying to make some kind of epic storyline which is just one deus ex after another. Whole season has been a huge meh. Its sad that most fun I had all season was dinosaurs on a spaceship.

 

[Zertez]

I really enjoyed the finale, but Im also in the minority that liked most of this season. While it wasnt the best series, it was still entertaining for me. I agree with the people that said this episode felt rushed. They should have turned into a 2 part episode to build things up more. If they had gone that route, I think I would have felt more emotions for the loss and pain of many of the characters. It just seemed like they rushed things to get to the end to show and the big reveal of John Hurt as the Doctor.

There is a lot of a possibilities with the anniversary episode and I think they have left a lot of room to come up with great surprises and wow moments. It is going to be impossible to please all the fans at this point, because with a long running show like Dr Who, there is many different aspects and reasons why people enjoy the show. If you dont address the reason some people like the show, they will up upset and that is bound to happen because they wont have enough time or story to make everyone happy. I just hope they stick to the same style and story arc, rather than create a mess that ends up being a poor attempt at fan service for all Dr Who fans. I guess as the saying goes, when you try to please everyone, you end up pleasing no one.

 

[Mariolee]

That would mean we are going back to Trenzalore. Which opens other issues (kind of)

It feels like Trenzalore should never have been seen. If that was the Doctors Entire Time Line then future doctors should have been present or 11 is the Last doctor. The TARDIS is there so even if it was just 11's grave then the Tardis stays with him so she won't be seen again.

Its got problems showing his final death. The big TARDIS had a cracked window which would imply that the current TARDIS is the final iteration and the control room was clearly non functional but retained the new "desktop" so either that never changes or its 11 dies on Trenzalore.

Why would the final resting place of the doctor be so orientated towards 11?

It wouldn't necessarily mean we're going back to Trenzalore. The way Dorian described it made it seem like a separate event in my opinion. I was also wondering about why the TARDIS was the same way it was currently, considering the Doctor always changes his desktop. Then again, I wondered when the 11th Doctor would get a new screwdriver to give to River, but that still hasn't happened yet.

 

[thefil]

I really like the concept of self-actualization John Hurt's reveal brings to Time Lord culture.

So "The Doctor" as we know him has a name - let's say Bob. At some point (after 0 or more regenerations), Bob realizes who he wants to be and assumes the identity of "The Doctor" which is built upon a series of beliefs.

Bob (in his Hartnell form) stops being known as Bob (or potentially some other identity) and assumed the identity "The Doctor". It's possible this change was even forced on him, as we know Hartnell was a bit of rapscallion/thief.

"The Doctor" as per Time Lord law is granted 13 regenerations, but this has no affect on Bob's physical regeneration capabilities (which may be 500+ as per Sarah Jane).

After seven more regenerations, Eighth Doctor Bob (McGann) regenerates into John Hurt form. He pulls the trigger on the time war in a way that is antithetical to the series of beliefs that compose the identity of The Doctor. While John Hurt's Doctor would call himself The Doctor, he would not be considered an entity of that identity according to Time Lord custom.

A similar phenomena could occur for the Valeyard, thus being "between the 12th and 13th doctors".

Thus, when Bob assumes his Eccleston form and regains his senses, he understands that he is the 9th Doctor. So Bob's series of regenerations is:

...1st Doc...2nd Doc... 3rd Doc... 4th Doc... 5th Doc... 6th Doc... 7th Doc... 8th Doc... 1st Time Lord Warrior... 9th Doc... 10th Doc... 11th Doc... 12th Doc... 1st Valeyard... 13th Doc... ... ...1st Beast... ... ...1st Tempest... ...

And of course without the Time Lord council to stop him, he can keep self-actualizing as "The Doctor" (and the potential damage that would cause by having an excessively long timeline) as long as he likes.

I like the idea of a culture that ties your identity so tightly to your perspectives and actions. To the point of being able to literally become a different person across both public perception and physical appearance. And the 13 limit also brings to mind the idea that Time Lords would promote continuous revision of self.

It also really brings meaning to "The Name of the Doctor". It's not the name you're born with, it's the name that represents who you are.

 

[Mariolee]

I really like the concept of self-actualization John Hurt's reveal brings to Time Lord culture.

So "The Doctor" as we know him has a name - let's say Bob. At some point (after 0 or more regenerations), Bob realizes who he wants to be and assumes the identity of "The Doctor" which is built upon a series of beliefs.

Bob (in his Hartnell form) stops being known as Bob (or potentially some other identity) and assumed the identity "The Doctor". It's possible this change was even forced on him, as we know Hartnell was a bit of rapscallion/thief.

"The Doctor" as per Time Lord law is granted 13 regenerations, but this has no affect on Bob's physical regeneration capabilities (which may be 500+ as per Sarah Jane).

After seven more regenerations, Eighth Doctor Bob (McGann) regenerates into John Hurt form. He pulls the trigger on the time war in a way that is antithetical to the series of beliefs that compose the identity of The Doctor. While John Hurt's Doctor would call himself The Doctor, he would not be considered an entity of that identity according to Time Lord custom.

A similar phenomena could occur for the Valeyard, thus being "between the 12th and 13th doctors".

Thus, when Bob assumes his Eccleston form and regains his senses, he understands that he is the 9th Doctor. So Bob's series of regenerations is:

...1st Doc...2nd Doc... 3rd Doc... 4th Doc... 5th Doc... 6th Doc... 7th Doc... 8th Doc... 1st Time Lord Warrior... 9th Doc... 10th Doc... 11th Doc... 12th Doc... 1st Valeyard... 13th Doc...

And of course without the Time Lord council to stop him, he can keep self-actualizing as "The Doctor" (and the potential damage that would cause by having an excessively long timeline) as long as he likes.

I like the idea of a culture that ties your identity so tightly to your perspectives and actions. To the point of being able to literally become a different person across both public perception and physical appearance. And the 13 limit also brings to mind the idea that Time Lords would promote continuous revision of self.

I actually really like this explanation. Hits all the points pretty well!

 

[EleventhDoctor]

Part One had that wonderful scene with the Doctor and Wilf talking, and it had that crazy cliffhanger. I don't think it was particularly hammy.

Part Two definitely veered there, however.

Wilf was the ONLY good thing about that episode. He was stellar-everything else was just awful.

I really like the concept of self-actualization John Hurt's reveal brings to Time Lord culture.

So "The Doctor" as we know him has a name - let's say Bob. At some point (after 0 or more regenerations), Bob realizes who he wants to be and assumes the identity of "The Doctor" which is built upon a series of beliefs.

Bob (in his Hartnell form) stops being known as Bob (or potentially some other identity) and assumed the identity "The Doctor". It's possible this change was even forced on him, as we know Hartnell was a bit of rapscallion/thief.

"The Doctor" as per Time Lord law is granted 13 regenerations, but this has no affect on Bob's physical regeneration capabilities (which may be 500+ as per Sarah Jane).

After seven more regenerations, Eighth Doctor Bob (McGann) regenerates into John Hurt form. He pulls the trigger on the time war in a way that is antithetical to the series of beliefs that compose the identity of The Doctor. While John Hurt's Doctor would call himself The Doctor, he would not be considered an entity of that identity according to Time Lord custom.

A similar phenomena could occur for the Valeyard, thus being "between the 12th and 13th doctors".

Thus, when Bob assumes his Eccleston form and regains his senses, he understands that he is the 9th Doctor. So Bob's series of regenerations is:

...1st Doc...2nd Doc... 3rd Doc... 4th Doc... 5th Doc... 6th Doc... 7th Doc... 8th Doc... 1st Time Lord Warrior... 9th Doc... 10th Doc... 11th Doc... 12th Doc... 1st Valeyard... 13th Doc... ... ...1st Beast... ... ...1st Tempest... ...

And of course without the Time Lord council to stop him, he can keep self-actualizing as "The Doctor" (and the potential damage that would cause by having an excessively long timeline) as long as he likes.

I like the idea of a culture that ties your identity so tightly to your perspectives and actions. To the point of being able to literally become a different person across both public perception and physical appearance. And the 13 limit also brings to mind the idea that Time Lords would promote continuous revision of self.

Wow-amazing!

 

[Ventilaator]

Episode was definitely better than Wedding of River Song (and Angels Take Manhattan, but that seems to be just me) in the sense that it wasn't one of the absolute worst goddamn things I've ever seen. It still has the Moffat brand of utter bullshit in it, but the bullshit was surrounded by a few really good ideas this time around.

The John Hurt thing has so much potential that you could kill a hungry space god with it. Too bad that River was there the entire time to remind me how wasting massive amounts of potential is kind of Moffat's whole thing.

Also, jesus christ the Whispermen are so Moffat Monsters that it hurts. It feels like Moffat's creature design process is to take whatever he did before and just change it a tiny bit.

 

[HP_Wuvcraft]

Well, there was the Daemons, and then I guess you could say The Time Monster, and then a bunch of new series episodes, but I wouldn't say there have been a whole lot of Deus ex machina in the history of the show (pre-Moffat, anyway). I'm probably forgetting one or two, but let's not exaggerate.

Yes, Doctor Who continuity is a clusterfuck. UNIT dating is a mess, Cybermen history is worse, and The Beast Below took a massive shit on the entire future earth chronology. I'm not upset that this episode doesn't fit in perfectly with continuity; I'm upset that Moffat was actively trying to fuck around with the history of the show, insert his own creation's into the past, and even contradict a story that was written while he was showrunner. With The Beast Below, I was pretty sure Moffat was just getting confused and misinterpreting when The Ark in Space took place, but this episode was a deliberate attack on the history of the show.

I can really think of no worse way to celebrate the 50 year history of the show than with some fanwanky garbage that makes the story about the Doctor and tries to rewrite the entire history of the series.

Are you honestly suggesting that RTD didn't do any of this shit?

 

[thefil]

Of course nothing came of that at the time, but I think we're finally going to see that pay off now for the 50th anniversary... I believe the character John Hurt is playing is actually a pre-Hartnell incarnation of the Timelord we know as The Doctor. He was probably some sort of space Hitler initially who changed his name to the Doctor, stole a TARDIS and ran in an attempt to remake himself.

Plus, think about it; This way the numbering stays intact. Matt Smith will technically still be the 11th "Doctor", only he will have had more incarnations that we never knew of prior to becoming the Doctor which I think is a good compromise. I HATED the idea of Smith actually being the 12th Doctor.

Hurt being pre-Hartnell still works just great with my theory. I may even like it better! Not sure.

 

[googleplex]

I'm sure this was already mentioned but. When the Doctor says that a time traveler must never ever visit their own grave. The first think I thought of was Rory in Angels in New York.

 

[Tim the Wiz]

I really like the concept of self-actualization John Hurt's reveal brings to Time Lord culture.

So "The Doctor" as we know him has a name - let's say Bob. At some point (after 0 or more regenerations), Bob realizes who he wants to be and assumes the identity of "The Doctor" which is built upon a series of beliefs.

Bob (in his Hartnell form) stops being known as Bob (or potentially some other identity) and assumed the identity "The Doctor". It's possible this change was even forced on him, as we know Hartnell was a bit of rapscallion/thief.

"The Doctor" as per Time Lord law is granted 13 regenerations, but this has no affect on Bob's physical regeneration capabilities (which may be 500+ as per Sarah Jane).

After seven more regenerations, Eighth Doctor Bob (McGann) regenerates into John Hurt form. He pulls the trigger on the time war in a way that is antithetical to the series of beliefs that compose the identity of The Doctor. While John Hurt's Doctor would call himself The Doctor, he would not be considered an entity of that identity according to Time Lord custom.

A similar phenomena could occur for the Valeyard, thus being "between the 12th and 13th doctors".

Thus, when Bob assumes his Eccleston form and regains his senses, he understands that he is the 9th Doctor. So Bob's series of regenerations is:

...1st Doc...2nd Doc... 3rd Doc... 4th Doc... 5th Doc... 6th Doc... 7th Doc... 8th Doc... 1st Time Lord Warrior... 9th Doc... 10th Doc... 11th Doc... 12th Doc... 1st Valeyard... 13th Doc... ... ...1st Beast... ... ...1st Tempest... ...

And of course without the Time Lord council to stop him, he can keep self-actualizing as "The Doctor" (and the potential damage that would cause by having an excessively long timeline) as long as he likes.

I like the idea of a culture that ties your identity so tightly to your perspectives and actions. To the point of being able to literally become a different person across both public perception and physical appearance. And the 13 limit also brings to mind the idea that Time Lords would promote continuous revision of self.

It also really brings meaning to "The Name of the Doctor". It's not the name you're born with, it's the name that represents who you are.

Yup, the self-actualized identity theory fits perfectly. I have to wonder how much of this has been planned out by Moffat. It's potentially brilliant if he can make it clearer.

 

[EleventhDoctor]

1. The Name of the Doctor
2. Asylum of the Daleks
3. Dinosaurs on a Spaceship
4. Hide
5 The Angels Take Manhatten
6. Journey to the Centre of the TARDIS
7. The Snowmen
8. The Bells of St. John
9. A Town Called Mercy
10. The Power of Three
11. Nightmare in Silver
12. Cold War
13. The Crimson Horror
14. the Rings of Akhaten

(Personal Preference)

And actually reviewing this list-Season 7 hasn't been as bad as I've been making it out to be-just those bottom four were total clunkers to me.

 

[KuwabaraTheMan]

Are you honestly suggesting that RTD didn't do any of this shit?

No, I'm not. He did it, but not as much as Moffat, and not to the same degree. That's all.

 

[Quick]

That was fucking amazing. I loved how they had John Hurt's credit pop in when his face was on closeup. Then you had him introduced as "The Doctor" in the credits.

GODDAMN.

 

[EleventhDoctor]

That was fucking amazing. I loved how they had John Hurt's credit pop in when his face was on closeup. Then you had him introduced as "The Doctor" in the credits.

GODDAMN.

"I didn't say that-He's me, but he's not The Doctor."

WHAT DOES THAT MEAN

 

[jstripes]

It also really brings meaning to "The Name of the Doctor". It's not the name you're born with, it's the name that represents who you are.

Well, that dispels me exasperation at the Doctor's "name" still being obscured in the episode.

It's not about the Doctor's "name", but the name of "the Doctor". It makes so much sense now. That version of the Doctor does not represent "the name".

 

[Quick]

WHAT DOES THAT MEAN

The Doctor before getting his doctorate.

 

[thefil]

I think some of you guys are over-stressing the important of the Valeyard name drop. It had no more important than "Beast" and "Tempest"; these are just other identities/regenerations that the Time Lord currently known as The Doctor has had, more destructive ones. There's no more reason to believe Hurt is the Valeyard than that he is the Beast or the Tempest.

 

[thefil]

"I didn't say that-He's me, but he's not The Doctor."

WHAT DOES THAT MEAN

I think it makes sense to introduce John Hurt's Time Lord as "The Doctor" because he would call himself that; "I did what I did in the name of peace".

But 11 wouldn't call him that. 50th could be tension over the right to assume that identity. I think it has to resolve on "no", though, as retconning 9-10-11 to be 10-11-12 is too much.

 

[hamchan]

"I didn't say that-He's me, but he's not The Doctor."

WHAT DOES THAT MEAN

It means it's time to change your name to TwelfthDoctor.

Seriously though, everyone will just call this John Hurt incarnation the 8.5th Doctor, since it's too hard to change the numbering and subsequent Doctor's don't acknowledge him.

 

[Quick]

It means it's time to change your name to TwelfthDoctor.

Seriously though, everyone will just call this John Hurt incarnation the 8.5th Doctor, since it's too hard to change the numbering and subsequent Doctor's don't acknowledge him.

THE HURT DOCTOR.

Spoiler

Someone better have made this joke in here already, or I would be so disappointed.

 

[thefil]

This was at the same time the most fanwanky episode ever, and the most continuity destroying. So, congrats on that, Moffat. Not happy with just steamrolling over classic continuity, he even contradicted The Doctor's Wife which was only one season ago. You'd think he would have stopped Gaiman from writing that if he had planned this out (hint: he hadn't).

We also get tons of Moffat's favorite tricks: people's memories being rewritten, timelines changing, fake deaths, and the Doctor being some all important figure in the universe. This episode has the Doctor's grave being the most dangerous place in the universe, and his name being the most powerful secret. It's absurd, and it's just the apex of all the ridiculous fetishization of the Doctor that Moffat has introduced in his time on the show. Gone are the days when the Doctor was just a wanderer through space and time trying to right some wrongs and explore the unknown. Nowadays, every story has to introduce some huge secrets about the Doctor and build him up as some sort of godlike figure who the whole universe revolves around.

What makes matters worse is that there is no reason to even care. Jenny and Strax aren't even characters in any sense of the word. There's no reason to care about their supposed deaths, especially since we all know by now that they'll be revived within minutes (and indeed they are). Clara makes a big sacrifice, but it would feel more meaningful if we had a more strongly developed relationship between her and the Doctor to lead up to this. However, we don't. Clara is nice and funny, but her personality has never been fleshed out strongly enough, and we have no real investment in the relationship between her and the Doctor. She exists to befuddle the Doctor rather to have a real relationship with him, so we can't really get too invested in any of this. Perhaps this would have worked better if this half season had spent most of their time developing the Doctor and Clara's friendship instead of having the Doctor obsess over her 'mystery' (which turns out to have a very boring explanation). To make matters worse, it takes forever from the Intelligence jumping into the Doctor's timeline to Clara doing it, despite it being immediately obvious that that's what will happen. If that time had been spent on Clara wrestling with that decision, it might work, but we spend most of that time with Vastra and Strax, and by the time we return to Clara she's already decided to do it, so any sort of drama from the scene is robbed right along with the pacing.

I enjoyed the episode, but I can get behind most of your criticisms.

The Doctor is definitely portrayed as overly messianic/important. The deaths are ludicrous, and Clara's choice is difficult to believe. The episode plays primarily on emotional strings and falls apart on critical examination.

I do feel sorry for you. It's hard not to like the direction a thing you loved is going. We've all had that experience.

For me, the best part was the mental romp I got to go on when Not-Doctor was introduced. The most sci-fi future culture implications part I had to basically invent myself, which is kind of a shame given how interesting identity-definition/self-actualization could be as a theme for a season of the show.

 

[Mariolee]

The Doctor before getting his doctorate.

So I guess you could call him...The Master.

:O

 

[googleplex]

I think it makes sense to introduce John Hurt's Time Lord as "The Doctor" because he would call himself that; "I did what I did in the name of peace".

But 11 wouldn't call him that. 50th could be tension over the right to assume that identity. I think it has to resolve on "no", though, as retconning 9-10-11 to be 10-11-12 is too much.

I'll call him the Time Warrior.