He burns.
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Doctor Who Series Seven |OT| The Question You've Been Running From All Your Life
- Thread starter Mr. Sam
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He burns.
Modern Clara, first seen in the Bells of Saint John, is the 'real' Clara. Just a normal girl who lost her parents and is a nanny. A 'girl in the shop' gives her the Doctor's phone number, which leads them meeting each other. The Doctor is fascinated because he's met two of her clones/echos/whatever you want to call it before.
In this episode, they go to the Doctor's grave. Instead of a body, he left behind a great big timerift, the result of all his time travelling. Entering that rift will scatter you across all these moments in the Doctor's life - basically every episode from 1963 until now. The Great Intelligence enters it after being defeated by the Doctor several times (2 times by Smith, 2 times by Throughton in the classic series), intending to turn every victory the Doctor ever had into a defeat, killing him across all these moments in time. Clara goes after him, gets scattered throughout time herself, and saves him in all these moments. Those are the Clara's we saw in the Snowmen and Asylum of the Daleks - not exactly 'real' Clara's, but echoes of the modern version, existing solely to save the Doctor. They don't really know they're not the 'real' Clara and why they do what they do.
Meanwhile, the real Clara ends up outside of time, in some sort of manifestation of the Doctor's own crumbling timeline, where all these events bleed over into one another. How they get out of that is saved for the special in november, but it lends itself rather nicely to jumping around in the show's history and bringing back old characters/monsters/locations.
Now, the only thing they didn't answer about Clara is who the girl was who gave her (the modern version) the Doctor's phone number. It's not River, because they never met before this episode, so it could be another character (Rose, Susan, whatever you like). Could also be an echo version of Clara who already met the Doctor, but you'd think Clara would recognize herself.
The more I think about it, the more I love it. Really didn't like series 7, but this more than makes up for the crappy last couple of episodes. They're finally doing interesting stuff again. The kind of sci-fi that you'd never see on another show. Years ago Moffat already said that he didn't like the multi-doctor stories because they always seemed forced, and the only way to do them correctly is by having a proper story to build on. I'm seeing some complaints that the story is a bit convoluted, but I think this is pretty much the best way to handle/set up a multi-doctor storyline. It's always a bit odd to see Doctors from different eras together like that, but it really is the only way to do the 50th justice. I hope we'll get some actual interactions between Smith and some of the classic Doctors though. And I hope to God that the rumours about the
Paul McGann webseries
If her entire conciousness is stored in the library, surely they can put her in a body somehow? I can't believe there is no way to do that either now or in the future. Stranger things have happened.
obviously the answer is 'whatever is necessary for the plot, just like with Rory and Amy being stuck in New York' but still.
Also, how come his grave is the most dangerous place etc but once he has opened his tomb he seems happy to jump into his timeline. Was that just bluster from the doctor to try and avoid revealing his secret?
...and the leaf? Still confused about that :/
NotTheGuyYouKill
Member
I honestly thought the reveal would be that "Tranzalore" would be the Doctor's name. As in, the Fields of Tranzalore are actually named after the Doctor posthumously. The only person who realized it was the Doctor, but he never told anyone and no one suspected that Tranzalore is his name. But that never happened.
Lol.
Lol.
The way they "solved" Clara was actually one of the best implementations of the timey wimey stuff the show has done in a very long time.
Napoleonthechimp
Member
Without the leaf her parents wouldn't have met and Clara would not have been born, so... she wouldn't have saved the Doctor and the Universe wouldn't exist. Let's call it a fixed point in time that possesses a high number of possibilities.
No, I mean the bit near the end of this episode when The Doctor said 'hold onto the leaf, it'll take you home'.
It was symbolic of her uniqueness. A way to keep reminding her of her true self. That she's still the true Clara and not an echo.
Anyone else miss the 8th Doctor's brief appearance the first time watching?
Good eye. Brief doesn't even begin to cover it.
acheron_xl
Member
I honestly thought his name was going to actually be John Smith. And I thought they foreshadowed it with the key that said Smiths.
Little Old Man
Member
River told him I believe.
I don't think Moffat is ever going to get back to who blew up the Tardis or the Silence at this rate. Unless it is all going to be crammed into the 50th show (wouldn't surprise me sadly).
SquiddyCracker
Banned
I like Doctor Please.
I guess this means that there are still millions of echoes of Clara out there?
Wonder if they'll come across one of them in a future episode, might be pretty neat.
I guess this means that there are still millions of echoes of Clara out there?
Wonder if they'll come across one of them in a future episode, might be pretty neat.
acheron_xl
Member
I didn't think they would, but if they had I think it would be something we already knew.
Well I mean the Silence is pretty self explanatory. They didn't want the universe to go kaput when the GI enters the Doctor's time stream, so they set out to kill him, to "silence" him so his name wouldn't be spoken so the door wouldn't open so the GI wouldn't enter his time stream so the world wouldn't kaput etc
Kind of ironic that the lady they hired to prevent his name being spoken ended up speaking his name.
HP_Wuvcraft
Banned
Oh, I totally thought they'd reveal his name.
Little Old Man
Member
Yeah but that version is still kind of dull. I'd rather they continue the 'silence will fall' plot line into next series. Or rather boring in that the Silence didn't come into this series.
"Silence will fall when the question is asked"? I always assumed that was just their goal, like chanting "victory" at a football game.
And I mean, technically silence DID fall. No one heard shit when that door opened.
Aside from the Doctor and Clara, I guess. Although shouldn't Strax and co. been able to see River too if Clara could...?
Exterminieren
Banned
I wouldn't have minded if they'd have revealed his name, in much the same way I didn't mind when they revealed his home planet and his race.
Not surprising that they didn't, though.
Not surprising that they didn't, though.
Box of Bunnies
Banned
Doesn't River say that she specifically kept the connection with Clara open when she first pops up at Trenzalore? Presumably she cut/didnt't bother to hold the line to the others.
HP_Wuvcraft
Banned
I love Strax.
That is all.
"DO NOT GIVE AWAY OUR MILITARY POSITIONS!"
That is all.
"DO NOT GIVE AWAY OUR MILITARY POSITIONS!"
Do the writers even know his name?
On the silence, I've always been baffled by their mention here and it seems in some way I was right to be.
It's like after every episode I'll come in here and you'll all be pontificating on what the Silence's role is in all this, when they'll jump back into the plot, what strings they're pulling along the way. But in reality they're not involved at all. You're giving Moffat way too much credit. They were a decent enemy handled appallingly and it'd be better if we let silence fall on them because the wasted potential is astonishing. The last three seasons have just been utter shit.
John Hurt would've been cool if it wasn't for the ridiculous text that appeared on screen.
It's like after every episode I'll come in here and you'll all be pontificating on what the Silence's role is in all this, when they'll jump back into the plot, what strings they're pulling along the way. But in reality they're not involved at all. You're giving Moffat way too much credit. They were a decent enemy handled appallingly and it'd be better if we let silence fall on them because the wasted potential is astonishing. The last three seasons have just been utter shit.
John Hurt would've been cool if it wasn't for the ridiculous text that appeared on screen.
I have a really Silly question and a different take on 8.5 , somebody can probably explain it to me tough,
1st off i class myself still as a casual viewer, even though i've been into Dr Who since sylvestor McCoy days, so i forget a lot off stuff thats happened in Previous seasons
Ok here goes
how come the doctor cannot see his future self? Ie he is always suprised what he looks like after each regeneration, and yet he has travelled way into the future, possibly as far or further than future regenerations?
I am going to back this up with, every time they do a episode where a former doctor is in a episode with the current, ie 3 doctors, the five doctors, 2 doctors and so on and so forth , the former gets to see his future self at
that point in time
In case you dont know anything about 50th spoilers
As an example
Therefore everytime these episodes happen is it because the docotor forgets when he has met himself before that he doesn't know what he looks like? Or is it something thats been explained in the past that i cant remember, perhaps different timestreams , but because im a causual fan, ive not picked up on it.
It would seem to me Dr who only doesn't know what his future self os going to look like, because the writers and the viewers do not
Thats why i mistakenly thought that hurt would be his last regeneration because he's already seen himself, but like seeing river song, chooses not to acknowledge it, because it is his last life (or so he thinks) and thus he doesnt want to acknowledge the end of his life, much like he shouldn't go to trenzalore, but he does , the reason he souldnt go to trenzalore really is because he will see himself at the end of his life, and he may try to prevent the end of his life, at some point in his future only we havent seen this yet and it's the timelord council that want to prevent the doctor from having the ability to seek his last regeneration (hurt) and perhaps purging with him or Giving him i dont know maybe the key to infinite regenerations, and then hurt will vanish, no longer exist as the final incarnation but this will cause 11 to die and regenerate into 12 but now he can regenerate as much as he likes or until the writers come up with something else. Somehow i missed out the valeyard in this so maybe he's the one who encourages the docotor to do this although it is forbidden by the timelords
Or soemthig, i dont know thats what i get for only half paying attention doh
1st off i class myself still as a casual viewer, even though i've been into Dr Who since sylvestor McCoy days, so i forget a lot off stuff thats happened in Previous seasons
Ok here goes
how come the doctor cannot see his future self? Ie he is always suprised what he looks like after each regeneration, and yet he has travelled way into the future, possibly as far or further than future regenerations?
I am going to back this up with, every time they do a episode where a former doctor is in a episode with the current, ie 3 doctors, the five doctors, 2 doctors and so on and so forth , the former gets to see his future self at
that point in time
In case you dont know anything about 50th spoilers
As an example
Ie the tenth (david tennant) is about to meet the 11th (matt smith) in which case the 11th would already know, that he met himself at least once, when he was number 10 right?
My thought here, tennant would already know what smiths dr would look like before he became him, because he has met him before, in the 50th anniversary, which would be in the future for us and tennant, and yet it would still be the past for smith, because he's already moved on from tennant.
My thought here, tennant would already know what smiths dr would look like before he became him, because he has met him before, in the 50th anniversary, which would be in the future for us and tennant, and yet it would still be the past for smith, because he's already moved on from tennant.
Therefore everytime these episodes happen is it because the docotor forgets when he has met himself before that he doesn't know what he looks like? Or is it something thats been explained in the past that i cant remember, perhaps different timestreams , but because im a causual fan, ive not picked up on it.
It would seem to me Dr who only doesn't know what his future self os going to look like, because the writers and the viewers do not
Thats why i mistakenly thought that hurt would be his last regeneration because he's already seen himself, but like seeing river song, chooses not to acknowledge it, because it is his last life (or so he thinks) and thus he doesnt want to acknowledge the end of his life, much like he shouldn't go to trenzalore, but he does , the reason he souldnt go to trenzalore really is because he will see himself at the end of his life, and he may try to prevent the end of his life, at some point in his future only we havent seen this yet and it's the timelord council that want to prevent the doctor from having the ability to seek his last regeneration (hurt) and perhaps purging with him or Giving him i dont know maybe the key to infinite regenerations, and then hurt will vanish, no longer exist as the final incarnation but this will cause 11 to die and regenerate into 12 but now he can regenerate as much as he likes or until the writers come up with something else. Somehow i missed out the valeyard in this so maybe he's the one who encourages the docotor to do this although it is forbidden by the timelords
Or soemthig, i dont know thats what i get for only half paying attention doh
The Real Abed
Perma-Junior
It's a planet specifically built for burying dead Gallifreyan soldiers from the Time War as a way to make sure they never visit their own grave for obvious reasons. (As before the war, there was no telling when they might accidentally stumble upon their own grave. So they use the planet as a centralized location for burying them.) The TARDIS didn't want to take him there because it was crossing into his own time stream which is why they had to "fall" onto the planet to get there. Also once they got there the gigantic dead TARDIS was a pretty good giveaway as to where his grave was.
He didn't have to assume he was buried there since all time travelers are buried there no matter what. For the sole purpose of making it easier to prevent yourself stumbling onto your own grave. Just make sure you never go to Trenzalore.
Hot Coldman
Banned
Yeah, they could, but why? She'd die again eventually regardless. She's at peace now.
Jinfash
needs 2 extra inches
I thought it was a great episode, though my least favorite part was River. Her inclusion just felt tacked on, a closure I never really cared or asked for, but that's just me. Speaking of which, it's been a while since I saw the finale of Series 6, but I thought one of the points that it made quite clear was that the Doctor never really told her his name on their wedding day, just that he's been miniaturized and will be coming back. So what am I missing here?
Box of Bunnies
Banned
He didn't tell it to her then, but he might have done so at some other point off-screen. Alternatively, she could have read it on the cot last season
He didn't tell her then, yes, but he has told her, hence why she knew it at the Library.
Jinfash
needs 2 extra inches
For some reason I thought what she told him in the Library was exactly what transpired in the season 6 finale as so "So, like, you have to die for some reason and you miniaturized yourself into a robot and told me you're coming back later, unbeknownst to your companion(s)" and the Doctor was like "Ah, yes, only a crazy mofo like myself would think of something as crazy as that. I guess you ARE my wife after all!"
Napoleonthechimp
Member
Why would they? It's pointless.
APZonerunner
Member
It's a being from 'before time began' whose sole goal is to cause havoc in the universe, basically. It's like a virus, a parasite. The Doctor defeated it several times over, so it wanted revenge. Doing what it attempted to do in this episode makes a lot of sense; it's revenge, but also causes terrible havoc all throughout the universe.
It's a shame the "parasite from before and/or outside time" explanation was given in 1960-something and not repeated when Moffat bought it back after 45 years, though.
A
A More Normal Bird
Unconfirmed Member
And even if they did, it hasn't been revealed on screen, so they would be relatively free to change it. Not that I think we'll ever see it.
Hot Coldman
Banned
Doctor Who Series 8 |OT| The Further Adventures of Huge McLongDick
Don't know if this has been mentioned already, but in regards to the absence of The Silence falling when the question was answered at Trenzalore:
What's the one thing we know about Trenzalore?
This is not the only or last time he comes here.
"It was a minor skirmish by the Doctor's blood-soaked standards. Not exactly the Time War, but enough to finish him. In the end, it was too much for the old man."
He dies here. In a battle. If we're playing theorycrafting I'd say that THAT is when the question is answered and the silence falls.
What's the one thing we know about Trenzalore?
This is not the only or last time he comes here.
"It was a minor skirmish by the Doctor's blood-soaked standards. Not exactly the Time War, but enough to finish him. In the end, it was too much for the old man."
He dies here. In a battle. If we're playing theorycrafting I'd say that THAT is when the question is answered and the silence falls.
APZonerunner
Member
The point was that the first time they met, the Doctor saved Jenny's life. With him erased, Jenny died at that (off screen) point.
Check Mark
Member
New fan here! Started with the revived series about a month ago, but haven't seen all of Eccleston's and Tenant's episodes yet (something to go back to while waiting for November)
If Clara remembered the conversations that didn't happen, does she also remember the Doctor's name from the book she read in the TARDIS?
If Clara remembered the conversations that didn't happen, does she also remember the Doctor's name from the book she read in the TARDIS?
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