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[APZonerunner]

What was the atmosphere in England like when the reboot debuted?

I'd say the show is more popular than ever...definitely more popular than it was when Eccleston and Tennant were on.

I think the way it really is... like, when the reboot happened, the atmosphere was unlike anything I'd ever seen in my lifetime (born 89) for TV, except possibly for when they did the final return episodes of Only Fools and Horses.

In UK TV terms - and keeping it relative, obviously - the Who reboot was comparable to the fever over Star Wars Episode 1. It was mental. Even before it aired. During production, when doubts cropped up the Terry Nation estate would allow use of the Daleks, there was a huge public campaign, front pages of newspapers, to convince the nation estate otherwise.

As somebody who had heard of and knew of Doctor Who but never saw it, I was drawn in to watch... and I know many others like that. 'Rose' remains one of the highest-rated episodes of the reboot.

In the UK, I think that the show in terms of ratings is more or less as strong as it was in the back end of the Tennant era. A lot less people watch it live, but the number of people picking it up on demand or on repeat makes it roughly even. That's generally speaking, anyway - the top five UK ratings all still belong to Tennant, I think, with one of Smith's Christmas specials in sixth.

That said, it does feel like some of the mind share has been lost. It isn't the public agenda dominating, newspaper front-page getting behemoth it was a few years ago. I think that's the thing - they call it a "force" in that article, and I think as a force it is lessened. I think that's why we've seen it shunted around the schedule like shit in recent years, and why we've seen them struggle to gain extended-length episodes and additional budget where Series 3 & 4 seemed to gain them effortlessly - while ratings are still great, Who is less of a media force in the UK than it once was.

People in the thread marvelled when I posted the front pages after Capaldi was cast, saying they didn't realize the show was that big a deal in the UK, but during the Tennant era multiple simple cliffhangers made the front pages (even relatively shitty stuff like the Human Dalek made the front page of The Sun). Similarly, the press fever in the lead-up to Capaldi being cast was nothing on the meltdowns, rumours and daily new stories when Smith was being cast. You couldn't move for Who.

I personally specifically attribute that to the fact that Smith's Doctor is (as far as I can tell) more popular with kids and the younger audience than it is with adults, at least compared to Tennant. The irony about Moffat's era of the show is that while a lot of people complain that Moffat's plots are over-complex or self indulgent and such, he's generally speaking had a greater success with kids in the UK than RTD did, who had more success as a general family show, hitting a slightly wider audience.

 

[Forever]

I think the way it really is... like, when the reboot happened, the atmosphere was unlike anything I'd ever seen in my lifetime (born 89) for TV, except possibly for when they did the final return episodes of Only Fools and Horses.

In UK TV terms - and keeping it relative, obviously - the Who reboot was comparable to the fever over Star Wars Episode 1. It was mental. Even before it aired. During production, when doubts cropped up the Terry Nation estate would allow use of the Daleks, there was a huge public campaign, front pages of newspapers, to convince the nation estate otherwise.

As somebody who had heard of and knew of Doctor Who but never saw it, I was drawn in to watch... and I know many others like that. 'Rose' remains one of the highest-rated episodes of the reboot.

In the UK, I think that the show in terms of ratings is more or less as strong as it was in the back end of the Tennant era. A lot less people watch it live, but the number of people picking it up on demand or on repeat makes it roughly even. That's generally speaking, anyway - the top five UK ratings all still belong to Tennant, I think, with one of Smith's Christmas specials in sixth.

That said, it does feel like some of the mind share has been lost. It isn't the public agenda dominating, newspaper front-page getting behemoth it was a few years ago. I think that's the thing - they call it a "force" in that article, and I think as a force it is lessened. I think that's why we've seen it shunted around the schedule like shit in recent years, and why we've seen them struggle to gain extended-length episodes and additional budget where Series 3 & 4 seemed to gain them effortlessly - while ratings are still great, Who is less of a media force in the UK than it once was.

People in the thread marvelled when I posted the front pages after Capaldi was cast, saying they didn't realize the show was that big a deal in the UK, but during the Tennant era multiple simple cliffhangers made the front pages (even relatively shitty stuff like the Human Dalek made the front page of The Sun). Similarly, the press fever in the lead-up to Capaldi being cast was nothing on the meltdowns, rumours and daily new stories when Smith was being cast. You couldn't move for Who.

I personally specifically attribute that to the fact that Smith's Doctor is (as far as I can tell) more popular with kids and the younger audience than it is with adults, at least compared to Tennant. The irony about Moffat's era of the show is that while a lot of people complain that Moffat's plots are over-complex or self indulgent and such, he's generally speaking had a greater success with kids in the UK than RTD did, who had more success as a general family show, hitting a slightly wider audience.

So what you're saying is that Moffat has presided over the decline and downfall of the series.

 

[Petrichor]

That speech at the end was epic though.

But there was no context to it, it didn't mean anything because the rest of the episode was so horribly written. Neil Cross hadn't earned that moment and resultantly its just as jarring, incongruent and poorly conceived as the rest of the episode. What is the doctor doing? Who is he talking to? What's happening? Not even the writet seems to know so how on earth am I meant to buy into that scene emotionally?

 

[Blader]

I have a feeling Hurt's regeneration will star "Some Guy with a Shaved Head from the Back"

I'd be surprised if this didn't happen. Also expect a recycled, ADR-added "Fantastic!" thrown in before cutting away.

 

[liquidtmd]

It will not return next year until the autumn, giving it plenty of time to recharge batteries.

Of course it needs it, it's never off the TV. This year, Christ how have they coped producing so much of it.

 

[Quick]

But there was no context to it, it didn't mean anything because the rest of the episode was so horribly written. Neil Cross hadn't earned that moment and resultantly its just as jarring, incongruent and poorly conceived as the rest of the episode. What is the doctor doing? Who is he talking to? What's happening? Not even the writet seems to know so how on earth am I meant to buy into that scene emotionally?

No context?

Did you pay attention? The Doctor offered himself because he has a wealth of memories, holding emotional attachment based on his experiences to save the people of Akhaten from being devoured. The parasite is a sentient being the size of a planet, ready to feed.

The Doctor's memories and experiences clearly weren't enough, so Clara gave it her leaf, because that leaf was how her parents met, how they eventually got together and had Clara. If the leaf hadn't fallen off the tree and smacked her dad in the face, he wouldn't have needed up in the middle of the road and her mom wouldn't have save him. Clara wouldn't have existed.

If I need to break it down to you in simpler terms:

Who: The Doctor, Parasite, Clara
What: Saving everyone
Where: Rings of Akhaten
Why: Parasite will devour everything if it wasn't stopped.
How: The Doctor offers himself and his memories and experience as sacrifice to save everyone. Still not enough, Clara sacrifices her precious leaf.

 

[SpacePirate Ridley]

I'd be surprised if this didn't happen. Also expect a recycled, ADR-added "Fantastic!" thrown in before cutting away.

Real Ecccleston not appearing makes me sad. I loved him in series 1, so him not being here, in a moment so important for doctor who fans and the history of the series, makes me a little mad with him. Even if he had good excuses to hate when he work there, I think not a ppearing right now, only for one time ever, is a little selfish of him.

 

[Petrichor]

No context?

Did you pay attention? The Doctor offered himself because he has a wealth of memories, holding emotional attachment based on his experiences to save the people of Akhaten from being devoured. The parasite is a sentient being the size of a planet, ready to feed.

The Doctor's memories and experiences clearly weren't enough, so Clara gave it her leaf, because that leaf was how her parents met, how they eventually got together and had Clara. If the leaf hadn't fallen off the tree and smacked her dad in the face, he wouldn't have needed up in the middle of the road and her mom wouldn't have save him. Clara wouldn't have existed.

If I need to break it down to you in simpler terms:

Who: The Doctor, Parasite, Clara
What: Saving everyone
Where: Rings of Akhaten
Why: Parasite will devour everything if it wasn't stopped.
How: The Doctor offers himself and his memories and experience as sacrifice to save everyone. Still not enough, Clara sacrifices her precious leaf.

Wait - is this sarcasm? Is what you've written above a satisfying / plausible denouement for you? It's in wishy-washy nebulous deus ex machina territory to begin with, but the "infinite potential energy of the leaf" as as plot expedient is just fucking risible. Everything in existence has infinite potential energy by the logic presented by the episode.

You're right, there is a "context" to it I suppose, it's just so poorly conceived that the speech scene is abortive and comes across as cringey and melodramatic rather than poignant.

 

[BocoDragon]

I think the way it really is... like, when the reboot happened, the atmosphere was unlike anything I'd ever seen in my lifetime (born 89) for TV, except possibly for when they did the final return episodes of Only Fools and Horses.

In UK TV terms - and keeping it relative, obviously - the Who reboot was comparable to the fever over Star Wars Episode 1. It was mental. Even before it aired. During production, when doubts cropped up the Terry Nation estate would allow use of the Daleks, there was a huge public campaign, front pages of newspapers, to convince the nation estate otherwise.

As somebody who had heard of and knew of Doctor Who but never saw it, I was drawn in to watch... and I know many others like that. 'Rose' remains one of the highest-rated episodes of the reboot.

In the UK, I think that the show in terms of ratings is more or less as strong as it was in the back end of the Tennant era. A lot less people watch it live, but the number of people picking it up on demand or on repeat makes it roughly even. That's generally speaking, anyway - the top five UK ratings all still belong to Tennant, I think, with one of Smith's Christmas specials in sixth.

That said, it does feel like some of the mind share has been lost. It isn't the public agenda dominating, newspaper front-page getting behemoth it was a few years ago. I think that's the thing - they call it a "force" in that article, and I think as a force it is lessened. I think that's why we've seen it shunted around the schedule like shit in recent years, and why we've seen them struggle to gain extended-length episodes and additional budget where Series 3 & 4 seemed to gain them effortlessly - while ratings are still great, Who is less of a media force in the UK than it once was.

People in the thread marvelled when I posted the front pages after Capaldi was cast, saying they didn't realize the show was that big a deal in the UK, but during the Tennant era multiple simple cliffhangers made the front pages (even relatively shitty stuff like the Human Dalek made the front page of The Sun). Similarly, the press fever in the lead-up to Capaldi being cast was nothing on the meltdowns, rumours and daily new stories when Smith was being cast. You couldn't move for Who.

I personally specifically attribute that to the fact that Smith's Doctor is (as far as I can tell) more popular with kids and the younger audience than it is with adults, at least compared to Tennant. The irony about Moffat's era of the show is that while a lot of people complain that Moffat's plots are over-complex or self indulgent and such, he's generally speaking had a greater success with kids in the UK than RTD did, who had more success as a general family show, hitting a slightly wider audience.

Here's my anecdote for someone living in Canada. The first few years after the reboot, I felt like I was the only person in the country watching the show. It was definitely for nerds-in-the-know only. I am actually quite surprised that it was a mainstream mega-phenomenon in the UK, even knowing everything I know about the prestige that series has there.

But in the last few years since Moffat/Matt Smith, it's become nearly mainstream over here. Countless young ladies at my college have Doctor Who wallpaper on their PCs or make posts about it on FB. I've been following DW since I was a kid watching obscure re-runs of the classic show, and then I felt like I was watching the first 5 years of the reboot in isolation... So it's been incredibly odd for me to see such a late appearance of mainstream interest in this show.

So taking our two perspectives into consideration... Perhaps that article is correct in implying that, recently, mainstream interest has slightly declined in the UK, while greatly risin from obscurity in the US (and Canada, etc).

 

[peanutbutterlatte]

Of course it needs it, it's never off the TV. This year, Christ how have they coped producing so much of it.

If there's one thing I thought Doctor Who 2005-2010 could have used, it's more break in between episodes. One episode a week? Exhausting.

 

[KuwabaraTheMan]

Moffat confirmed to the Guardian that Series 8 won't air until Autumn 2014. The Guardian specifically ask (they're talking to him as part of the Media Guardian Top 100 People, which he is on) and Moffat says Late Summer or Autumn is "probably right" as filming won't be beginning until January next year at the earliest. Well, bugger.

No surprise here. I'm expecting half of Series 8 in August/September next year, and then the second half in Spring 2015. Then Series 9 can have its first half air in late 2016, and so on.

I wouldn't expect more than 8 or so episodes a year anytime soon.

Rings of Akhaten is pretty bad...

It's not great, but it's at least unique. I really appreciated the culture of the alien world, and it had some real heart. In a half season made up largely of episodes that felt like bad SyFy original movies and cheap attempts to look 'cool' by having dark lighting and Victorian aesthetics, Rings of Akhaten dared to be different and not care about being 'cool'.

 

[APZonerunner]

So what you're saying is that Moffat has presided over the decline and downfall of the series.

I wouldn't say that, no. Just perception and areas of success have shifted; that doesn't mean everything is in the bloody toilet. The international success was unimaginable a few years ago.

Here's my anecdote for someone living in Canada. The first few years after the reboot, I felt like I was the only person in the country watching the show. It was definitely for nerds-in-the-know only. I am actually quite surprised that it was a mainstream mega-phenomenon in the UK, even knowing everything I know about the prestige that series has there.

But in the last few years since Moffat/Matt Smith, it's become nearly mainstream over here. Countless young ladies at my college have Doctor Who wallpaper on their PCs or make posts about it on FB. I've been following DW since I was a kid watching obscure re-runs of the classic show, and then I felt like I was watching the first 5 years of the reboot in isolation... So it's been incredibly odd for me to see such a late appearance of mainstream interest in this show.

So taking our two perspectives into consideration... Perhaps that article is correct in implying that, recently, mainstream interest has slightly declined in the UK, while greatly risin from obscurity in the US (and Canada, etc).

Basically correct, I reckon, yeah. Even then, how you measure 'success' in the UK means that your mileage will greatly vary - if you're just judging based on ratings and AI (audience appreciation) not much has really changed, but there's a mindset thing that goes beyond that.

 

[Box of Bunnies]

Wait - is this sarcasm? Is what you've written above a satisfying / plausible denouement for you? It's in wishy-washy nebulous deus ex machina territory to begin with, but the "infinite potential energy of the leaf" as as plot expedient is just fucking risible. Everything in existence has infinite potential energy by the logic presented by the episode.

You're right, there is a "context" to it I suppose, it's just so poorly conceived that the speech scene is abortive and comes across as cringey and melodramatic rather than poignant.

Man, some people really get mad about some fantasy in their science fantasy show.

 

[The Technomancer]

It's not great, but it's at least unique. I really appreciated the culture of the alien world, and it had some real heart. In a half season made up largely of episodes that felt like bad SyFy original movies and cheap attempts to look 'cool' by having dark lighting and Victorian aesthetics, Rings of Akhaten dared to be different and not care about being 'cool'.

Its bugging me how often this is cropping up lately, at least in part because I am basically 99% positive it is happening because someone was like "hey, steampunk is popular with the teens now, just put corsets on everyone"

Its really the only problem I have with The Doctor's Wife

 

[RetroMG]

I'll cop to it - I liked Akhaten. Mostly because of the music. I get the long song stuck in my head for at least a week every time I watch it.

 

[Forever]

Parts of Akhaten I Liked:
- The alien bazaar
- Clara's interactions with The Doctor
- "You remind me of someone."

Parts of Akhaten I Didn't Like:
- Cheesy song
- Cheesy speech to the big evil sentient planet thing
- Bad CG flight sequences
- Too much shit spread too thin

 

[Petrichor]

Man, some people really get mad about some fantasy in their science fantasy show.

It's bad fantasy I have a problem with - at least when the power of love saves the day, however groan-inducing it is as a plot conceit, it has its own internal logic to it - the way they ended Akhaten doesn't even have that going for it.

 

[V_Arnold]

It's bad fantasy I have a problem with - at least when the power of love saves the day, however groan-inducing it is as a plot conceit, it has its own internal logic to it - the way they ended Akhaten doesn't even have that going for it.

The leaf also has an internal logic to it. I would say "meditate on it to find out what", but I shall reserve that for my more cynical days, and just say it: it can make sense two different ways.

a. It is important to Clara, and therefore, by proxy, it is enough for the parasite
b. It really is just a cornerstone of a being's existence who later on shall save the Doctor himself, making it pretty much a HUGELY important thing in the universe, again, by proxy.

None of these require suspense of disbelief or anything. The mechanism of how that "God" works were already very much a result of the internal experience, not the objective one, and going with that, it is easy to see how the plot can make sense.

It does not make sense is if someone watches it, enrages and screams "LIFE DOES NOT WORK THAT WAY", and gets mad at the episode, I guess.

 

[Haly]

I didn't like the way Rings if Akhaten was resolved but I just noticed a moment of fridge brilliance here.

The leaf is a foundation of Clara's life right? But we all know what happened to Clara when she stepped into the Doctor's timestream. So while she may have been bullshitting, the fact is that the leaf is the trigger for so many more "lives" than any single human that it was enough to overload the god.

 

[peanutbutterlatte]

I didn't like the way Rings if Akhaten was resolved but I just noticed a moment of fridge brilliance here.

The leaf is a foundation of Clara's life right? But we all know what happened to Clara when she stepped into the Doctor's timestream. So while she may have been bullshitting, the fact is that the leaf is the trigger for so many more "lives" than any single human that it was enough to overload the god.

Never thought about this. There actually WAS a plot arc in Series 7!

 

[Bobby Roberts]

I think Rings of Ahkaten is pretty good Doctor Who.

I also liked Beast Below.

Sentimentality isn't a poison.

 

[Exterminieren]

Hot on the heels of the series 7 soundtrack, Silva Screen are putting out a CD with the scores for The Doctor, The Widow and The Wardrobe and The Snowmen on it on October 21st.

Finally I get to own the piece from right at the end of The Snowmen by Clara's grave, which is, for me, one of the best things Gold has ever written.

 

[Kuraudo]

Speaking of the soundtrack, I can't stop listening to Bah Bah Biker. Should replace I Am the Doctor for all future epic moments.

 

[Exterminieren]

Speaking of the soundtrack, I can't stop listening to Bah Bah Biker. Should replace I Am the Doctor for all future epic moments.

According to the track notes, Gold put the Bah Bahs on as a joke, intending to take them off for the episode. They ended up liking them enough that they felt the track worked better with them.

Spoiler

Needs to be a NSMB theme.

 

[Hot Coldman]

Speaking of the soundtrack, I can't stop listening to Bah Bah Biker. Should replace I Am the Doctor for all future epic moments.

Oh, I love that piece.

 

[Exterminieren]

The Bells of Saint John just had an all-round great score.

Spoonheads
A Turbulent Flight
Up The Shard

 

[Worthintendo]

So finished watching The Ice Warriors last night. Wasn't a bad serial, but nothing great, not as good as the Troughton Cybermen stories (Tomb of the Cybermen is godly to this day). I dunno the Ice Warriors don't really come off as menacing enough for me, Victoria is just annoying, Jamie is out of it for most of it. Troughton is of course awesome as usual but yeah not a great set of episodes. That said its nice to have been able to see more Troughton who would easily be up in the contention for my favourite all time Doctor amongst Pertwee, McCoy, Eccelston & Smith. Still got The Krotons, Seeds of Death & The Dominators left to watch of the surviving episodes of him and hopefully they do The Faceless Ones next for reconstructions with only 3 episodes of that missing.

Edit

Didn't realise Moonbase had already been announced as the next reconstruction, so I guess that'll be the next one to get when it gets done.

 

[Savitar]

Not sure how many people saw this before so I give you Peter Capaldia as the Doctor, animated.

You'll believe a Dalek can be taken totally off guard by one mans choice of words.

 

[gabbo]

Not sure how many people saw this before so I give you Peter Capaldia as the Doctor, animated.

You'll believe a Dalek can be taken totally off guard by one mans choice of words.

"OH MY GOD!"

 

[dan2026]

not as good as the Troughton Cybermen stories (Tomb of the Cybermen is godly to this day).

The Cybermen never looked better than in Tomb of the Cybermen to me.

 

[aHebrewMenagerie]

The Bells of Saint John just had an all-round great score.

Spoonheads
A Turbulent Flight
Up The Shard

That episode had some great cinematography work.

That shot where the Doctor is heading towards the Shard on the bike, punching it across the bridge, gives me chills.

 

[Worthintendo]

The Cybermen never looked better than in Tomb of the Cybermen to me.

I liked them in The Invasion as well, really nails how a full on attack by them would go.

 

[Rhomega Beta]

Finished watching the second half of Series 7 a few days ago. Episodes I liked:

Asylum of the Daleks
A Town Called Mercy
The Angels Take Manhattan
The Snowmen
The Bells of St. John
Hide
Journey to the Center of the TARDIS
Nightmare in Silver
The Name of the Doctor

 

[aHebrewMenagerie]

The Cybermen never looked better than in Tomb of the Cybermen to me.

The tenth planet design was superior. It is one of the few monster designs from classic doctor who, that if i woke up in the middle of the night, and saw that standing above me, I'd shit my bed. The later designs just look like robots. These look like what they are, a cyborg.

 

[Worthintendo]

The tenth planet design was superior. It is one of the few monster designs from classic doctor who, that if i woke up in the middle of the night, and saw that standing above me, I'd shit my bed. The later designs just look like robots. These look like what they are, a cyborg.

I guess I'm just too used to how the design went right after that episode. I really like the design during the Troughton era, really looking forward to seeing them in The Moonbase and eventually Wheel in Space when they do the reconstructions for that.

Really wish they hadn't gone with the tinfoil looking flightsuit design they had for them in the 80s, just looked kinda silly.

 

[aHebrewMenagerie]

I guess I'm just too used to how the design went right after that episode. I really like the design during the Troughton era, really looking forward to seeing them in The Moonbase and eventually Wheel in Space when they do the reconstructions for that.

Really wish they hadn't gone with the tinfoil looking flightsuit design they had for them in the 80s, just looked kinda silly.

It's a real shame, it was really frightening.

They didn't actually wear gloves, which made them even more creepy, emphazing the fact that they are part-man.

Something about how they talk is just freaky too.

 

[PaulloDEC]

It's a real shame, it was really frightening.

They didn't actually wear gloves, which made them even more creepy, emphazing the fact that they are part-man.

Something about how they talk is just freaky too.

That was such an amazing design, voices and all. I keep telling myself they'll bring it back some day.

 

[Savitar]

They can do without the crotch fans.

But I like the idea of them having stretched skin faces.

 

[aHebrewMenagerie]

That was such an amazing design, voices and all. I keep telling myself they'll bring it back some day.

I agree, so ahead of it's time.

They can do without the crotch fans.

But I like the idea of them having stretched skin faces.

Is that what it's supposed to be?

I guess if they tried to go that route again, it would look like something out of Star Trek: Insurrection

 

[PaulloDEC]

They can do without the crotch fans.

But I like the idea of them having stretched skin faces.

I think it was supposed to be more along the lines of bandages or some kind of cloth face covering. The idea back in those days was a lot more medical-themed than it later became.

 

[Quick]

They can probably re-introduce the old design (modernized) while still keeping the new redesign.

Wouldn't mind seeing a more basic Cyberman.

Speaking of Cybermen, Torchwood's Cyberwoman was cringe-worthy.

 

[The Technomancer]

They can probably re-introduce the old design (modernized) while still keeping the new redesign.

Wouldn't mind seeing a more basic Cyberman.

Speaking of Cybermen, Torchwood's Cyberwoman was cringe-worthy.

I

what?

 

[PaulloDEC]

They can probably re-introduce the old design (modernized) while still keeping the new redesign.

Wouldn't mind seeing a more basic Cyberman.

Speaking of Cybermen, Torchwood's Cyberwoman was cringe-worthy.

Oh god, you had to bring that up. I thought the fan community had collectively agreed that that whole thing never happened.

 

[Worthintendo]

It's a real shame, it was really frightening.

They didn't actually wear gloves, which made them even more creepy, emphazing the fact that they are part-man.

Something about how they talk is just freaky too.

Damit I wish the Regeneration box set would hurry up and come out down here, I really do want to see the Tenth Planet now :/

 

[Quick]

I

what?

Series 1, Episode 4.

Have fun.

Oh god, you had to bring that up. I thought the fan community had collectively agreed that that whole thing never happened.

As a concept? It's not the worst.

Execution? Terrible.

 

[DrForester]

Cyberwoman is worse than any Who episode.

Fear Her > Cyberwoman.

 

[The Technomancer]

Also is it just me or does her face look like it was made by BioWare? I seriously thought that was a CG image when I first looked at it

 

[aHebrewMenagerie]

Also is it just me or does her face look like it was made by BioWare? I seriously thought that was a CG image when I first looked at it

Cheeky Ianto......

 

[Box of Bunnies]

As a concept? It's not the worst.

Execution? Terrible.

Torchwood.txt

 

[Ripclawe]

They can probably re-introduce the old design (modernized) while still keeping the new redesign.

Wouldn't mind seeing a more basic Cyberman.

Speaking of Cybermen, Torchwood's Cyberwoman was cringe-worthy.

not really, it is pretty much the same level as torchwood's quality overall