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Doctor Who Series Seven |OT| The Question You've Been Running From All Your Life
- Thread starter Mr. Sam
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It's only been there for a few weeks.
peanutbutterlatte
Member
I vote for a 90's forum;
"H-....hello? Anybody in here?"
"H-....hello? Anybody in here?"
Hot Coldman
Banned
Actually it'd probably just be Big Finish and The New Adventures talk, which sounds kind of awesome to me
Exterminieren
Banned
The Doctor owned that a long, long time ago, though. Remember "I watched it happen! I MADE it happen!"?
He would like absolution, sure, but it didn't cause him to cast off his normal identity. Nah, whatever the Hurt Doctor did has to be a complete violation of his principles in a way that destroying the Time Lords and Daleks wasn't.
For personal glory or self preservation, possibly? Impulses that any other Doctor would be repulsed by.
As MasterBalls says, the way that the writing appears immediately after the VO talks about fighting for justice could be illuminating.
Box of Bunnies
Banned
Yeah, the Doctor's been telling anyone that will listen that he was the one that ended the Time War and killed all the Daleks and Time Lords since the show came back. Just "he was the Time War Doctor" doesn't make sense for the way Hurt was talked up as being a shameful secret that didn't deserve the name of the Doctor when it's been a subject that he's otherwise been pretty chatty about.
Has to be more specific than that.
Has to be more specific than that.
Just because he knows he did it doesn't mean that he forgave himself and isn't disgusted with the incarnation that did it. I mean, it didn't exactly happen too long ago in the Doctor's timeline. Given that when we first see the 9th Doctor he seemingly freshley regenerated, the 10ths timeline isn't that long, so that just leaves us with the 11th.
How is killing everyone not a total violation of his principles? He literally caused the extinction of both the Daleks (or so he thought) and the Time Lords, including his own family. Remember when the meta-crisis 10th destroyed all of thos Daleks? And how upset the 10th got? That gives the 11th more than enough reason to hate Hurt Doctor.
There is no reason to believe that he prolonged the war. The "No More" could imply multiple more probable things.
peanutbutterlatte
Member
It happened at least 100 years ago, how long the Ninth/Tenth's lifespans are isn't something that the show really elaborated on, especially for 10. As I've said before, there's a thin line between killing with no other choice and willful, deliberate murder, or something of that caliber. The show has hammered it into us that The Doctor's actions were completely justifiable, even if it was intensely tragic and doomed his kind to extinction.
I'd wager the 10th getting so mad was down to killing the Daleks not being absolutely neccesary. They were already escaping, and they'd already reversed Davros's plans. Meta10's actions were completely superfluous and unneeded. The Doctor's action in ending the Time War was not. It's made clear that the universe and reality would have been torn apart by the Time Lord/Dalek war.
If you think Moffatt is going to take a plot-point written by another writer nearly 10 years ago and have that be the huge big twist about the Hurt Doctor, I don't know whether you've been paying attention.
Exterminieren
Banned
That was Tom Baker's Doctor, in Genesis of the Daleks.
The Doctor doesn't like to kill, and he is against genocide to extinction as well. Why is causing the extinction of his own race as well as another not enough of a reason to disown that incarnation to you? Because he talked about it before? Whenever he brings it up he isn't exactly happy about it he and coped with it terribly.
That plot point written nearly ten years ago is perhaps the biggest events in the Doctor Who canon. The end of the Time Lords. It makes sense that it would central to the 50th anniversary of the show. Not to mention that there doesn't need to be a huge twist with Hurt's character. We don't even know his role is in the 50th.
peanutbutterlatte
Member
"Fear me, I killed them all" and other similar lines take away from your guess though. We'll see. I'll be very surprised if the 50th Anniversary is essentially "The Guilty Time War Monologue Scenes From Series 1-4: Super Turbo Redux Edition".
The Time War is simply (and admittedly a great) way to deal with the show's decade long radio silence. Wouldn't put it past Moffatt to shake it up completely. He won't introduce a new "secret Doctor" to deal with the Time War guilt Eccleston and Tennant spent years dealing with.
Exterminieren
Banned
He's not happy about it, but he hasn't ever denied it was him.
This is what you're missing. It's not that this incarnation did a bad thing, it's that his action was so bad that the future Doctors aren't even willing to recognise it as themselves.
The Doctor has ended the Daleks and the Time Lords again since the Time War. That's not the problem here.
Do you remember in a previous Moffat episode the Doctor saying he'd have to forgo his name and find a new one? In The Beast Below, when he thinks he's going to have to torture the (innocent) Space Whale into insanity and death. That's the morality we're talking here.
He was under attack at that point and trying to scare off the enemy, so I don't really count that one. I don't know where you are getting that I am saying that the whole special will be about that, nor do I see where I said that they are introducing the Hurt Doctor just to deal with the guilt from the Time War. Even if the latter was what I was arguing, so what? You are arguing the same thing, but for just different reasons. His guilt would be about prolonging it in your scenario.
I admit, that is a much more solid argument. But the only problem with it is that he has acknowledge that Hurt was him. That is the first thing he does when Clara asks who the Hurt Doctor is. He just says that he broke the promise of "the Doctor".
I don't recall the Doctor wiping out all of the Daleks again, but destroying the Daleks hasn't been his first response since they first reappeared in the 9th Doctor story. I assume the Time Lord thing is a reference to The End of Time, but that was a completely different situation. He had to choose between a handful of Time Lords, or literally the rest of existence. He didn't directly kill them again either, just sent them back to the last day of the Time War for (presumably) the Hurt Doctor to kill them.
Either way, him killing all of the Time Lords is more than enough of a reason to renounce himself as the Doctor in that incarnation. I don't see why you think that is less plausible than "the Hurt Doctor prolonged the Time War."
Exterminieren
Banned
Because the very instant he figured out that there were Time Lords on the scene in The End of Time, he immediately stopped agonising about using Wilf's gun, seized it and divebombed the Earth to try and get rid of them. He regrets having done it enormously, but there's not been any onscreen indication that the Doctor considers the deaths of the Time Lords repulsive enough to completely discount an entire incarnation, given the state of them by the end.
I mean, for goodness sake, he spent ages agonising over using the gun against the Master for the sake of all of humanity, but Time Lords coming back? Boom, he grabs the nearest available firearm faster than blinking.
People aren't saying it couldn't possibly be enough given no other context, they're saying he has outright claimed credit for it as the doctor on more than one occasion. Ergo, it is not enough because it was not enough.
Maybe because he realizes what them coming back means instantly? It is not like they were common Time Lords, they were the High Council aka mostly monsters by that point. At least Rassilon. But that doesn't mean that he doesn't regret murdering all of them in the Time War. Just wanted to save humanity more than a select few last day of the Time War.
There never has been a hint that he has had a secret incarnation besides The Name of The Doctor. That is the point.
But I am just speculating about what his story could be. I am not saying he definitely is the incarnation that ended the time war, though I think it was heavily hinted at.
What other occasion besides The Doctors Wife? I'm not saying that is the only reason why he disowns that Doctor, I am just saying it seems like it would be enough.
peanutbutterlatte
Member
Pretty much. Moffat could egregiously retcon, but why? The Time War was awful, and he was guilty about it, but he's been guilty about a lot of things. It's part of the pain of living 900+ years. This has to be above and beyond.
Also, woah, Maharg was de-modded?
Exterminieren
Banned
"I watched it happen! I MADE it happen!"
That was, like, the first concrete detail we ever got about the Time War.
peanutbutterlatte
Member
Well, all evidence points to him being connected between 8 and 9, but it would certainly make sense as to why he's been running from The Day of the Doctor "all his lives".
I don't know, isn't it more supposition than evidence, because of the Time War stuff? I do agree that he is presumably from that 8-9 period, though.
peanutbutterlatte
Member
Yeah but there's certain stuff that seems really hard to ignore, e.g. his costume being clearly a mix of 8 & 9's. That's not concrete evidence granted, but it's certainly very grounded supposition if not.
APZonerunner
Member
Realistically a 'secret' regeneration can only fit between 8 and 9 or before 1, because we have 100% continuity otherwise. You could make an argument for not actually seeing the moment 2 becomes 3 as well, I suppose, if you really wanted to stretch.
"The Fall of the Eleventh" and the current Doctor falls to the planet. Nevermind some of the weirdnesses covering the rest of the prophecy - that bit seems to be true. Personally, I find the whole "secret" regeneration between 8 and 9 to be off because the numbering appears right - and excluding the true 9th (Hurt in this case) would be predominantly semantics.
And frankly, I think the theory ties well into the name - The Day of the Doctor - if you think of it as the Doctor's birthday; that is, when he became The Doctor and left whoever he was before (Hurt) behind.
And frankly, I think the theory ties well into the name - The Day of the Doctor - if you think of it as the Doctor's birthday; that is, when he became The Doctor and left whoever he was before (Hurt) behind.
I feel pretty confident that I remember various lines about it in the first couple of seasons of newwho, but since it's been a while since I've watched them I'll beg off trying to list them. If someone feels they can more authoritatively make the argument than me, have at.
Retired.
peanutbutterlatte
Member
DiipuSurotu
Banned
Costume designer Howard Burden literally said Hurt fills the gap between McGann and Eccleston: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...r-Whos-new-adversary-the-Prince-of-Wales.html
If that's true, I'd fire that guy. And it's also pretty disappointing, given how inconsistent it seems.
peanutbutterlatte
Member
To be honest, they'd have to fire John Hurt with that logic, he hasn't seemed particularly shy about revealing details at certain times!
Well now I'll feel less anxious arguing with you in the DW/HIMYM threads
Should never have felt anxious anyways. I never banned a single person.
infiniteloop
Member
interesting article here on the recovery of the missing episodes, piecing together quotes from those involved (and Ian Levine):
http://doctorwhoarchive.com/2013/10...nd-the-hunt-for-doctor-whos-missing-episodes/
So Moffat clearly put Web of Fear references after the recovery, as most suggested (filming began in August last year)
http://doctorwhoarchive.com/2013/10...nd-the-hunt-for-doctor-whos-missing-episodes/
So Moffat clearly put Web of Fear references after the recovery, as most suggested (filming began in August last year)
Potential spoilers for the 50th from leaks:
Costume designer for Hurt's character confirmed it. Here.
I am pretty rusty on the older seasons of relaunch, I just don't recall it happening all that much. At least not to really owning it.
That's true. Though that was in reference to the Daleks specifically. Plus the 9th was a rage beast in that episode. But if Hurt is really an in-between 8&9 Doctor, I am not sure what other atrocity he could have committed.
APZonerunner
Member
Passing here and there, but, yeah. I mean, most notably the "I watched it happen -- I MADE it happen" in Dalek and "I was the only one who could end it," explanation to The Master in The Sound of Drums. So he has 'owned' it a few times, but never in a manner as flippant as in The Doctor's Wife. The Sound of Drums actually contains one of the best descriptions we have of the war:
Interesting that they have him say "like God" rather than "like a god" - do Time Lords have a deity-based religion? Or it just like someone here saying "you must have felt like Zeus"?
They do have Omega and the Other, and Rassilon as prominent figures of history/legend who were very powerful, but I don't know if they revered them. If that is an accurate transcription, I'd personally put that line down to the writer's culture showing through more than an indication of time lord society.
acheron_xl
Member
That's all just Cartmel Master Plan stuff, and not actual, established canon, I believe.
JonathanEx
Member
I suppose a singular God also makes sense, if it's one person controlling the fate of the two biggest races/societies/etc.
But yes probably overthinking.
But yes probably overthinking.
Omega and Rassilon are definitely cannon. They've even both appeared in the show.
Random thoughts I've been having lately:
Why was the ending to the Rings of Akhaten so poorly explained? I mean even not going with the obvious "It was weak and you finished it off", "The leaf doesn't have infinite potential but since you've been crying into it for 10 years it's very powerful" etc they missed one really good possibility:
The leaf contains so much power because of Clara splitting across all of time and space. Millions of Clara's all tied back to the leaf could justify it. Not only that it gives the Doctor an opportunity to think "What? That shouldn't of worked... what the hell is she?" again.
Why was the ending to the Rings of Akhaten so poorly explained? I mean even not going with the obvious "It was weak and you finished it off", "The leaf doesn't have infinite potential but since you've been crying into it for 10 years it's very powerful" etc they missed one really good possibility:
The leaf contains so much power because of Clara splitting across all of time and space. Millions of Clara's all tied back to the leaf could justify it. Not only that it gives the Doctor an opportunity to think "What? That shouldn't of worked... what the hell is she?" again.
Most of the 'impossible girl' build up was wasted by the time the explanation came about.
acheron_xl
Member
I was thinking more about the Other.
Exterminieren
Banned
The soundtrack for The Doctor, The Widow and the Wardrobe and The Snowmen are out, and they've got some cracking tracks on them.
Whose Enigma (the best on the album, and one of the best things Murray Gold has ever put out for the show.)
Antifreeze
Geronimo
Flying Home For Christmas
Clara in the TARDIS
Sherlock Who?
Whose Enigma (the best on the album, and one of the best things Murray Gold has ever put out for the show.)
Antifreeze
Geronimo
Flying Home For Christmas
Clara in the TARDIS
Sherlock Who?
peanutbutterlatte
Member
It's definitely intentional.Hah this actually really sounds like something out of a Sherlock ep
That ending was amazing partially because of the perfection of Whose Engima. Pity they didn't add the tweak they did of Majestic Tale though.
21st century cowboy
Member
I've just received the BBC shop special edition blu ray of complete series 7 and its an absolute monster. It's literally double the height of a regular blu ray case so there is no way in hell that it will fit on my blu ray shelves, hell, it won't even fir on my book case. It's special and does look cool but I'm a little annoyed. I can post pics when I get home in an hour if anyone is bothered.
thebaroness
Member
So, I just want to say that it's been many years that friend have recommended this show to me. I've never avoided it on purpose, I just never had the time to catch up on 50 years of history!
Anyways, I recently just began watching the 2005 Eccleston run alongside the first doctor and I must say that I am completely in love with the show. I don't say this lightly, but it has quickly become my favorite show of all time, and it take a lot to over take those MST3k bots.
Anyways, I recently just began watching the 2005 Eccleston run alongside the first doctor and I must say that I am completely in love with the show. I don't say this lightly, but it has quickly become my favorite show of all time, and it take a lot to over take those MST3k bots.
Has all the discussion from this thread moved into the 50th Anniversary one? I don't check that because I got the impression that was a spoiler thread. Looking forward to the special, the cinema near me's showing it in 3D but I'll be away from home visiting family unfortunately. Means I won't even get to see it in glorious HD! Ah well, there's always the repeat viewings for that.
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