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Doctor Who Series Seven |OT| The Question You've Been Running From All Your Life

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B

BocoDragon

or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
Regardless of the entertainment value of these episodes (and I do hope they are enjoyable), this just goes a long way to appeasing the OCD in many of us. The loss of episodes just bothers me, and I hope we someday recover all of them.
 
Z

zaphod79

Member
maharg said:
I wonder how long they've known about these internally. It seems kind of convenient that just as a season of Who that focuses on the GI ends and the fiftieth comes up we get Web of Fear. And wasn't Moffat recently talking about somehow dealing with the fact that Time Lords sometimes resemble real people in an interview?
Click to expand...

Given that they have been 'digitally remastered' its obviously been known about by some people for quite a while - no idea if relevant but the dates shown in itunes for the episodes are the 1st of August this year (wonder if thats just a placeholder point or if thats when the digital versions of the episodes were created ?)
 
D

dan2026

Member
I never though I'd see Web or Enemy in my life. Kinda amazing.

Isn't their rumours of others episodes or the burner though? (Hopeful)
 
B

Boem

Member
Very happy about this one. Finished my massive Doctor Who marathon about a year ago (all the episodes, including recons of the missing episodes), and I never thought I'd get to see a 'new' classic episode again. The second Doctor has always been my favorite (in fact, I'd say that the 60s are my favorite Doctor Who era, so bloody charming). I'm especially looking forward to watching Web of Fear again, I think that was a very fun one. Yeti in the underground, right? I wasn't as taken with Enemy of the World when I watched it (well, the recon), but it will probably benefit from being in motion. It'd be very interesting to see Throughton play a completely different character. I think the only time I've seen him play something other than the Doctor was in the original version of The Omen (whichi is a pretty bad movie, but scared the crap out of me as a kid).

Conspiracy time: this might have been discussed by someone already, but considering the time it takes to clean these episodes up, is it possible that Moffat adapted the storyline of the modern show, starting with the Christmas episode? Not only does he bring the Great Intelligence back, the Christmas episode shows the Doctor giving the GI the idea to take over the London Underground, which is what happens in Web of Fear. That's not even the first GI/Yeti episode!

So yeah, for people interested in watching these things, technically Web of Fear takes place (from the GI's perspective) after The Snowmen and Bells of Saint John, and during the last couple of minutes of The Name of The Doctor (the part where the GI takes over his timestream).

Crazily excited about this.
 
M

mclem

Member
maharg said:
I wonder how long they've known about these internally. It seems kind of convenient that just as a season of Who that focuses on the GI ends and the fiftieth comes up we get Web of Fear. And wasn't Moffat recently talking about somehow dealing with the fact that Time Lords sometimes resemble real people in an interview?
Click to expand...
Not only that, in the conclusion to the Snowmen there's a direct reference to Web Of Fear, and now there's storyline reasons for travelling into the Doctor's own past. I've been wondering for a while if the recovery of these episodes is actually going to be alluded to in the storyline of DotD.

Calling it now: DotD is, in fact, Doctor Who's Trials and Tribble-Ations.
 
M

mclem

Member
infiniteloop said:
so which of the following is true:

A. The BBC has no leads on other missing episodes.
B. BBC has solid leads on missing episodes, but can't announce as they're not back with the BBC yet.
C. BBC has other missing episodes in it's possession and is working on restoring for release.
Click to expand...

My money's on B, with a hint of Steam Early Access.

That is, the BBC have purchased these as a trial run, in the hopes that the revenue from them would cover the purchase costs of the remaining episodes.
 
B

Boem

Member
mclem said:
My money's on B, with a hint of Steam Early Access.

That is, the BBC have purchased these as a trial run, in the hopes that the revenue from them would cover the purchase costs of the remaining episodes.
Click to expand...

You know, that doesn't sound too crazy to me.

Is there any footage of the press conference? Jamie's my favorite companion, and he was supposed to be there. I'd love to hear him talk about those two stories.
 
D

dan2026

Member
So do we reckon its true that whoever is selling these is doing so at a hefty premium?
That they have more?

I wish we had more information. If there are more episodes out there I want to know dammit!!
 
8

8bit

Knows the Score
mclem said:
Calling it now: DotD is, in fact, Doctor Who's Trials and Tribble-Ations.
Click to expand...

But they kind of did that already with Clara in the most recent episode, so I wouldn't expect it to happen again. I'd like to see whatshisface from the League of Gentlemen as Troughton in the 50th, but with Adventures in Space & Time showing immediately afterwards I think that's unlikely.
 
S

Sir_Crocodile

Member
maharg said:
I wonder how long they've known about these internally. It seems kind of convenient that just as a season of Who that focuses on the GI ends and the fiftieth comes up we get Web of Fear. And wasn't Moffat recently talking about somehow dealing with the fact that Time Lords sometimes resemble real people in an interview?
Click to expand...

There have been rumours since spring, so I guess sometime before then.
 
M

mclem

Member
dan2026 said:
So do we reckon its true that whoever is selling these is doing so at a hefty premium?
That they have more?
Click to expand...

The finder is a guy named Philip Morris, they were found in a TV relay station in Nigeria.

http://www.doctorwhomagazine.com/the-enemy-of-the-world-the-web-of-fear-found/

Maybe it's just the restoration costs rather than purchase costs?

Interesting that the reels were, at some point, in Hong Kong too, before moving on to Nigeria. Hong Kong really does seem to be Troughton Central.
 
D

dan2026

Member
mclem said:
The finder is a guy named Philip Morris, they were found in a TV relay station in Nigeria.

http://www.doctorwhomagazine.com/the-enemy-of-the-world-the-web-of-fear-found/

Maybe it's just the restoration costs rather than purchase costs?

Interesting that the reels were, at some point, in Hong Kong too, before moving on to Nigeria. Hong Kong really does seem to be Troughton Central.
Click to expand...

Ok thanks for the info.

Doesn't seem promising that there are more, unless the BBC is being deliberately deceptive.
 
M

mclem

Member
dan2026 said:
Doesn't seem promising that there are more, unless the BBC is being deliberately deceptive.
Click to expand...

It doesn't?

The official statement from Philip Morris:

I would like to thank everybody at BBC Worldwide and BBC Television for their mammoth support during this project. It is my greatest pleasure in the 50th anniversary year of Doctor Who, in a joint project between my company TIEA and BBC Worldwide, to unveil two classic adventures.

Sadly, due to other archive commitments overseas, I am unable to be with you today. My work is endless and, as you know, the search must continue.

I would like to dedicate these episodes to everyone who has ever worked on the show and to all Doctor Who fans around the world. I have the Doctor Who fans' best interests at heart. On behalf of myself and everyone at TIEA, thank you for your continued interest, and I hope our paths will soon cross again.
Click to expand...

And I've not seen explicit confirmation, but I've heard mutterings that at the press conference, they were asked "Have any more episodes been discovered?"... and they declined to answer.

I think there's absolutely hope, here.
 
S

Sir_Crocodile

Member
dan2026 said:
Ok thanks for the info.

Doesn't seem promising that there are more, unless the BBC is being deliberately deceptive.
Click to expand...

They'd make more money if they were. Get a buzz for "New episodes" every few months.

I would favour that approach, might get the restoration a bigger budget.
 
M

mclem

Member
An interesting snippet from a blog on Outpost Skaro, from someone who was in attendance:

But there is one important thing to say: it was confirmed to me that the rampant speculation and personal attacks that has been going on in some quarters of fandom has made the acquisition more difficult. (OS was not mentioned as an offender, I am pleased to say, even after I told them who I was; although it would be disingenuous to pretend we weren't part of the speculation rollercoaster.) I asked how, and was told even discussing that would create difficulties. The story can be told, but not yet.

Some will undoubtedly say that this is prissy smugness and a desire to hold onto power from big fish in small ponds: on balance, I genuinely don’t believe that’s the case. I think we need to take that request at face value, back off a little, and enjoy and celbrate what we get. Cos it is bloody marvellous.
Click to expand...

I'm interested in hearing the full story, then. It sounds like there's some political wrangling behind the scenes.
 
A

APZonerunner

Member
My Tenth Doctor screwdriver replica is here, the new one that's also a TV remote. That's not why I ordered it, though, I just wanted the replica, and this thing is scanned off Tennant's remaining prop that he took with him when he left. There's only 5 grams in weight difference between the two, and that's the only difference.

It's amazing. Properly chuffed.
 
I

infiniteloop

Member
Those that have been hinting about this return and release (available digitally, DWM covers ready to go) over the last six months or so seem very optimistic about more coming down the line, which gives me some hope for more.
 
M

Mindwipe

Member
dan2026 said:
Ok thanks for the info.

Doesn't seem promising that there are more, unless the BBC is being deliberately deceptive.
Click to expand...

They're not.

But possibly deliberately vague.

I'm interested in hearing the full story, then. It sounds like there's some political wrangling behind the scenes.
Click to expand...

There will be a VERY interesting book written about it one day.
 
M

maharg

idspispopd
So I'm watching The Enemy of the World and... is the guy on the beach at the beginning attempting an Australian accent?

Also I love the second doctor so much.
 
V

V_Arnold

Member
Well, I do not know old-who, so...just going by some random stuff, what does he mean?

a. He *technically* regenerated twice with the 10th
b. The *first* regeneration is 1-2, so that means the 11th is only 10th regeneration if we only count this
c. How many regens did River gave him in Lets Kill Hitler? Just one? None? If only one, that is irrelevant then.
d. The "lost" Doctor counts as one more regen, right? Hurt, I mean.

Hm.
 
S

StalkerUKCG

Banned
Man fuck 12 Regenerations, You are forcing the show into either pulling some super mystic bull crap to get around it or pretty much pushing it into a grave.
 
D

Diablos54

Member
StalkerUKCG said:
Man fuck 12 Regenerations, You are forcing the show into either pulling some super mystic bull crap to get around it or pretty much pushing it into a grave.
Click to expand...
What? It was always going to be a plot point when it came round to it, I don't see how that means it's 'pushing it into a grave'... And super mystic bullcrap? What, like someone who can change his face? Someone who can become Jesus with the power of thought and wishes?
 
P

Petrichor

Member
V_Arnold said:
Well, I do not know old-who, so...just going by some random stuff, what does he mean?

a. He *technically* regenerated twice with the 10th
b. The *first* regeneration is 1-2, so that means the 11th is only 10th regeneration if we only count this
c. How many regens did River gave him in Lets Kill Hitler? Just one? None? If only one, that is irrelevant then.
d. The "lost" Doctor counts as one more regen, right? Hurt, I mean.

Hm.
Click to expand...

Maybe he's retroactively fixing the journey's end cliffhanger and counting david tennant's "hand regeneration" as having used one up.
 
V

V_Arnold

Member
Diablos54 said:
What? It was always going to be a plot point when it came round to it, I don't see how that means it's 'pushing it into a grave'... And super mystic bullcrap? What, like someone who can change his face? Someone who can become Jesus with the power of thought and wishes?
Click to expand...


To be fair, that was STILL a low-level telepathic field+6 billions of humans using it :p
 
S

StalkerUKCG

Banned
Diablos54 said:
What? It was always going to be a plot point when it came round to it, I don't see how that means it's 'pushing it into a grave'... And super mystic bullcrap? What, like someone who can change his face? Someone who can become Jesus with the power of thought and wishes?
Click to expand...

By super mystic bullcrap I meant Deus Ex, I don't like the idea of it being a huge series revolving plot point which I expect it to be. Pushing it into a grave means that unless they squirm out of it via some kind of Deux Ex device then its 1-2 more doctors and the series is done for.

The thing is its been made pretty obvious that time lords enforced the regenerations and could grant new regenerations as a way to either limit population or the effect one member could have on the universe. With them gone the limit is effectively gone already. Nothing about it sits well with me and I can see moffat using some horrible work around that also won't sit well with me.

Edit as a side note, Here's all the regen's

1. Hartnell to Throughton (shown on screen)
2. Throughton to Pertwee (Not Shown)
3. Pertwee to Baker (shown on screen)
4. Baker to Davison (shown on screen)
5. Davison to Baker (shown on screen)
6. Baker to McCoy (shown on screen)
7. McCoy to McGann (shown on screen)
8. McGann to Eccelston (NOT shown)
9. Eccelston to Tennant (shown on screen)
10. Tennant to Smith (shown on screen)

So thats 10 regens 11 doctors. The ones not shown both heavily imply an off screen regen occurred.
 
L

Locke_211

Member
In the 20th anniversary special "The Five Doctors", the Master is literally, easily offered a whole new cycle of regenerations by the Time Lords if he helps them rescue the Doctor. It seems from that story that it's a pretty easy thing they can just choose to do.
 
S

StalkerUKCG

Banned
Locke_211 said:
In the 20th anniversary special "The Five Doctors", the Master is literally, easily offered a whole new cycle of regenerations by the Time Lords if he helps them rescue the Doctor. It seems from that story that it's a pretty easy thing they can just choose to do.
Click to expand...

He mentions again that he was brought back to fight in the time war by the time lords, He has at least 1 regen here between Jacobi and Simm probably more but he vanished while the doctor was unconscious he either went back to the time war or burnt up all his regen's with the force lightning blast
 
S

Suppersalmon

Neo Member
Wasn't Hartnell to Troughton technically a rejuvenation not a regeneration, not a clue what the real difference is but i remember reading something how for a while in the 80's they wanted to point out it was different , then there are all the extra brain of morbius Doctors to throw into the mix.
 
A

APZonerunner

Member
Locke_211 said:
In the 20th anniversary special "The Five Doctors", the Master is literally, easily offered a whole new cycle of regenerations by the Time Lords if he helps them rescue the Doctor. It seems from that story that it's a pretty easy thing they can just choose to do.
Click to expand...

Well, there's The Sound of Drums thing above, and on top of that we've got the forced regeneration of the Second Doctor including letting him "pick" a face, suggesting that removing a regeneration was a form of punishment for them - so really we have multiple confirmations that they could manipulate that.
 
B

Blader

Member
I'm guessing, if he's addressing this now, it's something that'll come up in the 50th or Christmas special?

Jorok Goldblade said:
We're making a pretty big assumption about Hurt being another regeneration. He could just be a much older version of McGann's Doctor.
Click to expand...

heh, that's an interesting thought. Though didn't Hurt or someone else say that his Doctor was an in-between incarnation?
 
B

Bobby Roberts

Banned
Jorok Goldblade said:
We're making a pretty big assumption about Hurt being another regeneration. He could just be a much older version of McGann's Doctor.
Click to expand...

I don't know if that works because if it was just Paul McGann, but older - Clara would have recognized him as such. She's seen all the faces. Plus Eight is counted by both Clara and The Doctor as one of the Doctor's incarnations, so he can't be one that had the name taken away, othrerwise they'd have never counted him in the first place.

I had the same thought myself awhile ago - maybe he's just old, aged McGann, and instead of getting McGann and putting makeup on him, they just got a really old guy. But 1) He doesn't look much like Paul McGann and 2) Putting McGann in makeup is probably easier/cheaper than going out and getting John Hurt.
 
A

APZonerunner

Member
Jorok Goldblade said:
We're making a pretty big assumption about Hurt being another regeneration. He could just be a much older version of McGann's Doctor.
Click to expand...

This would be a pretty shitty thing for Moffat to do to McGann, though, since McGann himself is now a version of his Doctor aged by nearly 20 years and raring to go.

Aside from that: 1) this doesn't jive with the "did something so bad he broke the name 'The Doctor' thing - as 8 has been recognized by both the Tenth & Eleventh Doctors in passing and 2) Clara doesn't recognize him at all "I saw you... I saw all your faces, you are the Eleventh Doctor -- who is that?" where if this was really going to be the case they'd surely have not had such a clean-cut line considering the image of the 8th Doctor had "walked past" her moments earlier.
 
M

Mindwipe

Member
StalkerUKCG said:
By super mystic bullcrap I meant Deus Ex, I don't like the idea of it being a huge series revolving plot point which I expect it to be. Pushing it into a grave means that unless they squirm out of it via some kind of Deux Ex device then its 1-2 more doctors and the series is done for.

The thing is its been made pretty obvious that time lords enforced the regenerations and could grant new regenerations as a way to either limit population or the effect one member could have on the universe. With them gone the limit is effectively gone already. Nothing about it sits well with me and I can see moffat using some horrible work around that also won't sit well with me.
Click to expand...

I can't see how you don't address one of the big things about the show as a major plot point. It's the thing the general audience most knows about Who.

I don't see that the loss of the Time Lords meant that the limit no longer applies. We don't know what the consequences of waiving the limit are. It's probably pre-programmed into the nanotech and DNA of Gallifreyans, so the loss of the Time Lords wouldn't remove it, but instead get rid of the only known force for overriding it...

Will there be some kind of wacky device for getting the Doctor's body to reset it's regeneration limit? Sure. But there's good stories in the consequences.
 
M

mclem

Member
Steven Moffat today confirmed of the Doctor, “He can only regenerate 12 times”, while simultaneously suggesting there has been a miscalculation of how many regenerations he has actually been through.

“I think you should go back to your DVDs and count correctly this time," said Moffat, "there’s something you’ve all missed.”
Click to expand...

I wonder if the implication there is that if he's not the Doctor at the point of regeneration, it doesn't count? Hurt wasn't acting in the name of the Doctor, that was established, so maybe that's excluded? And how exactly does The Watcher figure in all of this?

My theory - and it ties back to the faces thing - it may not count as a regeneration if it's not a 'new' face, instead if it's into a face and body you've already interacted with. That accounts for Romana's as well as Capaldi. And it sneakily get by the Morbius problem. And has interesting potential for multi-Doctor affairs in the future.
 
D

Dryk

Member
V_Arnold said:
[/B]

To be fair, that was STILL a low-level telepathic field+6 billions of humans using it :p
Click to expand...

"The power of a name, that's old magic"
"There's such a thing as psychic energy but no human could channel it, not without a generator the size of Taunton"

- The Shakespeare Code
 
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