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[Sir_Crocodile]

I agree for the most part, but I can't believe you called The Waters of Mars "triple boring". I love it. Good monsters; depressed, fatalistic Tenth; makes you think it's going for the feel-good finale, then suddenly takes a turn to the grim. Tenth's dark side is pretty compelling (well, everything's relative; Doctor Who-wise, I mean).

Basically because it's one of the worst offenders for (to me)one of the worst things in modern who - an episode that feels like it was purpose written to advance a specific plot point, and when I get that feeling with an episode it pretty much overrides everything else.

I also probably treat it worse then it deserves due to backwash from tens horrific mooching at the end of "the end of time". Hard for me to put episodes in a bubble sometimes.

 

[APZonerunner]

Torchwood's first season was so awful - again, my opinion - that I didn't bother watching the rest. Does it get better, then?

Series 2 is much better than the first. The third series - which is 5 one-hour episodes, each representing a day of a single week (and it was aired one a day for a week) is one of the best pieces in the new-Who universe, imo.

The US/UK crossover 4th series has a wonderful idea behind it and has a nice sort of '24 but sci fi' energy to it, but it crashes and burns in the back half. It does end on a note that could make any potential fifth Torchwood really interesting, though, so maybe that'll happen one day. They're still putting out Torchwood books and things, a new one came out last week.

 

[Exterminieren]

Torchwood's first season was so awful - again, my opinion - that I didn't bother watching the rest. Does it get better, then?

Much, much better.

Moran wrote Sleeper for series 2, and part of Children of Earth.

Everyone should watch Children of Earth.

 

[Randdalf]

One thing I'd say is that the show would have to cut down on the spectacular in finales if they want to avoid some of the deus ex machina stuff. The whole Master reintroduction triple episode I really enjoyed despite the deus ex machina, because you literally could not have done that plot without one at the end. Sometimes it's just unavoidable, and what comes before it is usually worth it.

 

[Hot Coldman]

I was really excited for Torchwood's future, after Children of Earth and RTD announcing he was leaving Who. I thought it'd become "legit", finally becoming worthy in its own right, rather than a Who supplement. Seems like CoE was the only time that happened. :/

 

[SquiddyCracker]

The Pandorica Opens
The Big Bang - worst nuwho finale. good setup ruined by another deus ex and we still don't know who that voice was years later.

Agreed so much.
Who the hell was that voice?
Was it really that hard to not put the face behind that voice in the following season and resolve that little issue?

 

[Exterminieren]

I was really excited for Torchwood's future, after Children of Earth and RTD announcing he was leaving Who. I thought it'd become "legit", finally becoming worthy in its own right, rather than a Who supplement. Seems like CoE was the only time that happened. :/

Miracle Day had the core of a really, really good concept. I was so hyped after reading the plot synopsis.

Then it became about Big Pharma and magical Earth vaginas and pissed it all up the wall.

I think the Miracle Day concept had a really good 5 part miniseries in it.

 

[Lkr]

In the RTD era my friend and I would point out that the RTD and moffat eps would be amazing every time compared to the rest and we always wondered why they didn't do the majority of them

 

[Emitan]

Miracle Day had the core of a really, really good concept. I was so hyped after reading the plot synopsis.

Then it became about Big Pharma and magical Earth vaginas and pissed it all up the wall.

I think the Miracle Day concept had a really good 5 part miniseries in it.

what.

 

[Exterminieren]

what.

Yeah, don't bother with Miracle Day.

Possible NSFW Miracle Day image.

 

[APZonerunner]

I was really excited for Torchwood's future, after Children of Earth and RTD announcing he was leaving Who. I thought it'd become "legit", finally becoming worthy in its own right, rather than a Who supplement. Seems like CoE was the only time that happened. :/

I think a massive part of the problem with Miracle Day was due to how it was structured and written. It was written by committee, with 5 writers plus RTD and Julie Gardner deciding the overall plot, and then people called dibs on what episodes they wanted to do based on what most interested them. It was a shit idea, and makes the whole thing feel weirdly disconnected.

With Doctor Who, everybody except Gatiss and Moffat would get told what their episode is in simple terms. Fires of Pompeii had the description of "Pompeii, Fire Monsters, Soothsayers, Moral Dilemma, strong dramatic material for Catherine, to prove she's not just a comedian" - and that was what Moran worked with. Moffat uses the same structure, though like RTD accepted pitches off him, accepted them off people like Gaiman. Here, writers just did whatever they wanted within the rough confines of the overall series and it was all over the place.

RTD basically recruited a bunch of his heroes, including Jane Espenson, who did Buffy, which he loves. Never meet your heroes, as her episodes are arguably the worst of the bunch. Such a shame. Miracle Day has a really, really strong idea behind it, too, but the execution fucks it.

EDIT: Exterminieren - I think Big Pharma was a theme worth exploring, just without the earth vagina bullshit. The final plot twist was pretty ace, though, and I do like that character.

 

[Hot Coldman]

I think I'm more just annoyed at the BBC's decision to try and ditch the series than I am at the overall quality of Miracle Day. I guess it came down to budget decisons- probably hard to accommodate two flashy sci-fi series, especially when one isn't kid-friendly- but I'm sure another mini-series would be in their grasp. CoE was 5 episodes.

 

[Clay Davis]

Yes a bin eats a character in the first episode of the reboot ('Rose'). I would say however that you're missing out, even if some of the earlier episodes of NewWho aren't as good from certain standpoints as Moffatt/Smith (production design is the most obvious). Give them a shot, and see for yourself. There are some really great episodes in those first four years.

They're different. I almost want to say that they're.... broader? I feel that RTD made a much more family friendly show, so they're often full of silly concepts.

Expect a lot more hand-wavy stuff going on and a more bombastic approach.

But there are some truly excellent episodes in there that rival or surpass the best of the Smith episodes. Episodes like Blink and Midnight, for instance.

I used to think the same, and was quite surprised by seasons 2 and 3; many episodes rival and several surpass the Moffat run (granted, few of those were written by Moffat himself). The Smith era is consistently good, but the great Tennant episodes are something else - in my opinion.

thanks to everyone for your thoughts on the earlier seasons. I've decided to watch them after tomorrow mid seasons finale with expectations in check.

thanks again, 4 seasons plus the christmas specials should keep me busy until the current christmas special airs.

 

[Exterminieren]

EDIT: Exterminieren - I think Big Pharma was a theme worth exploring, just without the earth vagina bullshit. The final plot twist was pretty ace, though, and I do like that character.

I fundamentally just don't think Big Pharma was an interesting dramatic route to go down. There was so much fertile dramatic stuff to use (Oswald, the incinerators, that cult that did nothing, Gwen's dad) that taking so much time quibbling about drugs was a massive anti-climax.

Fundamentally, I think Miracle Day's fundamental problem was that it did a piss poor job of making us feel like this mattered. Children of Earth was superb at this; there was a real escalation throughout the week, with little or no distracting, bullshit subplots. We saw the negotiations, we saw the army moving to take the kids, we saw Jack's sacrifice, and there was no respite. Miracle Day found time for flashbacks and side stories, and utterly failed to build up momentum. It needed a big ticking timebomb.

 

[APZonerunner]

thanks to everyone for your thoughts on the earlier seasons. I've decided to watch them after tomorrow mid seasons finale with expectations in check.

thanks again, 4 seasons plus the christmas specials should keep me busy until the current christmas special airs.

Be sure to report back!

I think I'm more just annoyed at the BBC's decision to try and ditch the series than I am at the overall quality of Miracle Day. I guess it came down to budget decisons- probably hard to accommodate two flashy sci-fi series, especially when one isn't kid-friendly- but I'm sure another mini-series would be in their grasp. CoE was 5 episodes.

I think if the series survives at this point it has to do so through the US/UK collaboration. It's a shame everything has dropped off in the spin-off territory - Torchwood's in limbo, Confidential's gone, and Sarah Jane was meant to continue for much longer, bus Liz was much more ill than she ever let on, bless her. Terrible shame. I can't say any of them were must-watch TV for me (CoE aside) so it's not a massive loss personally, but the more Who universe stuff there is the better.

With Torchwood off the air for a year now, I'd love to see Jack back in Doctor Who for one or two episodes. He's the one companion Moffat openly said he'd love to do if the time was right - he's half his creation, after all! Maybe around the 50th celebrations.

 

[Clay Davis]

Be sure to report back!

sure, it's the least I can do after the feedback from everyone. will post little summaries after each season. I'm not the greatest at writing long posts, so they'll be short and sweet but to the point.

 

[Exterminieren]

I hate Miracle Day even more than I otherwise would because it was filming Miracle Day which stopped Moffat from writing Jack into A Good Man Goes To War.

Such a waste.

 

[Hot Coldman]

I think bringing back Jack shouldn't just be a nostalgia play- he's one of the best characters in the Whoniverse, IMO. He's ridiculously interesting when done right, like he was in CoE, and for as much as he hogs Saturday night TV over here Barrowman's presence on Who always felt right and welcome. Personally, I'd love to see him and River meet up, although that might blow up some sort of innuendo-o-meter.

 

[Exterminieren]

I think bringing back Jack shouldn't just be a nostalgia play- he's one of the best characters in the Whoniverse, IMO. He's ridiculously interesting when done right, like he was in CoE, and for as much as he hogs Saturday night TV over here Barrowman's presence on Who always felt right and welcome. Personally, I'd love to see him and River meet up, although that might blow up some sort of innuendo-o-meter.

Think of all the Jack/ Madame Vastra interaction we missed...

The whole point of AGMGTW was that the Doctor was bringing all the people he could trust and rely on in a fight up to bat. Jack would have fit in perfectly.

 

[Hot Coldman]

I think my brain keeps farting back out the fact that Jack was going to be in AGMGTW, because I keep forgetting about it. It's too fucking tragic.

I guess you can rationalise it by saying Jack doesn't really owe the Doctor anything, and the Doctor was calling in his owed favours. Or something. I dunno.

 

[Patryn]

I think bringing back Jack shouldn't just be a nostalgia play- he's one of the best characters in the Whoniverse, IMO. He's ridiculously interesting when done right, like he was in CoE, and for as much as he hogs Saturday night TV over here Barrowman's presence on Who always felt right and welcome. Personally, I'd love to see him and River meet up, although that might blow up some sort of innuendo-o-meter.

If they're going to do a 50th Celebration with a focus on NewWho, then the companions that need to show up are Jack, Amy, River and, I hate to say it, but Rose.

Those four are probably the most important of the modern era.

I think my brain keeps farting back out the fact that Jack was going to be in AGMGTW, because it's too fucking tragic.

He was? What happened?

 

[EleventhDoctor]

I've actually seen it repackaged as an Ice Box.

The place we got it from was actually selling the Cookie Jar AND a TARDIS Ice chest.

 

[The Technomancer]

The Big Bang is not the worst new finale, it might rank...I dunno, third? Only because of the last twenty minutes or so, overall it was pretty strong. Worst finale is, hands down, Wedding of River song. Everything about it was terrible, from the "lets mash up historical scenes that look awesome so people will go 'that's awesome!'" like the train driving into the pyramid, to the way that they resolve the Doctor's death ("It was a robot!") despite introducign the gangers in that very season, to the fact that their wedding had absolutly no emotional impact at all, thus wasting the last shred of interesting possibility left in River's character...

Second place goes to Last of the Time Lords for savign the day through the power of everyone believing in how awesome the Doctor is

 

[mightynine]

Brah is it suppose to be in part one or two?

End of part one. Madge from the Christmas special also breaks out the naughty bits too.

 

[Patryn]

The Big Bang is not the worst new finale, it might rank...I dunno, third? Only because of the last twenty minutes or so, overall it was pretty strong. Worst finale is, hands down, Wedding of River song. Everything about it was terrible, from the "lets mash up historical scenes that look awesome so people will go 'that's awesome!'" like the train driving into the pyramid, to the way that they resolve the Doctor's death ("It was a robot!") despite introducign the gangers in that very season, to the fact that their wedding had absolutly no emotional impact at all, thus wasting the last shred of interesting possibility left in River's character...

Second place goes to Last of the Time Lords for savign the day through the power of everyone believing in how awesome the Doctor is

Nothing's worse than Fairy Jesus Doctor. Nothing.

The first two parts of that 3-parter were so brilliant, and then that episode... gah.

It's almost worse than Fear Her for me, simply because of how hard it falls down.

 

[Exterminieren]

I guess you can rationalise it by saying Jack doesn't really owe the Doctor anything, and the Doctor was calling in his owed favours. Or something. I dunno.

The Doctor set him up with Russell Tovey.

Jack owes the Doctor big time.

 

[Hot Coldman]

The Big Bang is not the worst new finale, it might rank...I dunno, third? Only because of the last twenty minutes or so, overall it was pretty strong. Worst finale is, hands down, Wedding of River song. Everything about it was terrible, from the "lets mash up historical scenes that look awesome so people will go 'that's awesome!'" like the train driving into the pyramid, to the way that they resolve the Doctor's death ("It was a robot!") despite introducign the gangers in that very season, to the fact that their wedding had absolutly no emotional impact at all, thus wasting the last shred of interesting possibility left in River's character...

Second place goes to Last of the Time Lords for savign the day through the power of everyone believing in how awesome the Doctor is

Last of the Time Lords is objectively worse. I mean, there's no redeeming qualities about that one, besides John Simm hamming it up. Meanwhile, TWoRS still has all the scenes set before the Doctor's death, in particular the wonderful scene in the TARDIS with Dorium's head and the discovery of the Brigadier's death. Some of S6's best stuff was in that episode.

And I like the Tesselecta twist. I didn't see it coming, anyway.

 

[ultron87]

I didn't see it coming because I didn't expect the show to directly lie to its audience to build suspense for a whole season.

"The Doctor lies" is not an excuse for this!

 

[Exterminieren]

Yeah, the Brigadier scene by itself catapaults TWoRS over Last of the Time Lords.

I liked the opening bits with the Doctor investigating shit, playing Live Chess and meeting contacts in bars.

 

[APZonerunner]

If they're going to do a 50th Celebration with a focus on NewWho, then the companions that need to show up are Jack, Amy, River and, I hate to say it, but Rose.

Those four are probably the most important of the modern era.

Rose's appearance is highly likely anyway, as if it ends up being multi-Doctor it'll probably be meta-crisis Ten, with her in tow. Very sad Sarah Jane won't be there for the 50th. Jo Grant has met Matt's Doctor now, though, so she could show up to fill the old-era companion void.

 

[Hot Coldman]

Meta-crisis?

Yeah, the Brigadier scene by itself catapaults TWoRS over Last of the Time Lords.

I liked the opening bits with the Doctor investigating shit, playing Live Chess and meeting contacts in bars.

So awesome.

 

[APZonerunner]

Meta-crisis is, if I remember right, what they called the "spare hand" Doctor.

 

[Exterminieren]

I don't remember meta-crisis Doctor.

As if they'd do anything that ruined Rose's perfect, tragic end like that.

Spoiler

:whistles:

 

[maharg]

Rose's appearance is highly likely anyway, as if it ends up being multi-Doctor it'll probably be meta-crisis Ten, with her in tow. Very sad Sarah Jane won't be there for the 50th. Jo Grant has met Matt's Doctor now, though, so she could show up to fill the old-era companion void.

Ghost of Adric. The Doctor is so concerned about death these days, face him up with what he perceives as his greatest failure.

 

[infiniteloop]

William Russell needs to come back.

 

[Hot Coldman]

Meta-crisis is, if I remember right, what they called the "spare hand" Doctor.

Oh fuck that. I'd prefer it if they had the lone "four knocks" Tenth Doctor. Hell, maybe that's what makes Ten finally go to see the Ood and stop pratting around- he sees 11 and gets the courage to face the knocking.

And then Ninth could turn up as well, with Rose. hurr hurr hurr

 

[Exterminieren]

Never mind Jack in AGMGTW.

My biggest regret is that we never got the Brigadier in The Wedding of Sarah Jane like we should have. ;-;

 

[Patryn]

Having River encounter Ten in a multi-Doctor story would also allow the show to explain how River recognized the Doctor in Silence in the Library.

Unless they've done River and Ten in books or whatnot?

And I'd want proper Ten, not Meta-Crisis Ten.

 

[Exterminieren]

I reckon we'll get Big Finish River and Ten adventures at some point down the line.

Moffat has said that they met up again, but none of the Expanded Universe stuff picked up on it.

 

[Dr Zhivago]

The whole point of the metacrisis Doctor was to allow Tennant to come back without wibbly-wobbliness.

The Wedding of River Song was a case in point of awesome setup and terrible resolution.

 

[Emitan]

And I like the Tesselecta twist. I didn't see it coming, anyway.

I thought it was painfully obvious and I never catch on to stuff.

*shrugs*

 

[WanderingWind]

Me and the wife when they were all like "it's not a robot."

"It's totally a robot."

Meh.

 

[APZonerunner]

The thing I didn't like about the Tesselecta twist is that throughout Let's Kill Hitler the doppelgänger is shown to not -quite- be right. The nazi at the start walks strangely, speaks strangely, and the version of Amy is even more dead-eyed... but the Doctor on the beach and the guy in the bar are both utterly normal. Totally convincing, nothing robotic about their movements at all.

Other than that, I thought it was a good twist.

 

[maharg]

The thing I didn't like about the Tesselecta twist is that throughout Let's Kill Hitler the doppelgänger is shown to not -quite- be right. The nazi at the start walks strangely, speaks strangely, and the version of Amy is even more dead-eyed... but the Doctor on the beach and the guy in the bar are both utterly normal. Totally convincing, nothing robotic about their movements at all.

Other than that, I thought it was a good twist.

The Doctor is just a better pilot. Especially at being himself.

 

[Hot Coldman]

The Tesselecta crew are pretty incompetent. Trying to kill Hitler in 1938, impersonating a dead man...

 

[Exterminieren]

Matt Smith is naturally so gangly and awkward that nobody noticed that the Teselecta was also gangly and awkward.

 

[KuwabaraTheMan]

William Russell needs to come back.

That would be great. I would love to see Ian meeting the current Doctor for the 50th. It would be a nice way to tie everything together.

Me and the wife when they were all like "it's not a robot."

"It's totally a robot."

Meh.

That was my biggest problem with the Series 6 arc. They say up front "it's really the Doctor, not a robot" and then 12 episodes later "lulz, it was actually a robot all along".

 

[King of the Potato People]

Ha ha.

 

[Suairyu]

Would have been a great opportunity for a time-travel resolution, rather than a "robot!"

I still think the best of the Matt Smith bunch so far is the Christmas Carol, precisely because it structures its entire narrative and plot around time travel.

edit - FUCKING SPOILERS!

 

[nckillthegrimace]

Once the Teselecta showed up in the "previously on" thing, it was ridiculously obvious that the Doctor had switched places with it. And you know what? I'd rather be actively misled into a "cheap" resolution than everything to just work itself out because of bullshit deus ex machina. You know, like that Bad Wolf shit, everyone focusing their psychic energy on the Doctor like he's fucking Tinkerbell, and whatever the hell happened with Davros.