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[The Abominable Snowman]

I'm currently trying out DSL, that's Damn Small Linux. So far, it's sufficient for surfing the web, direct downloading, and even getting my ZSNES on every now and then. However, after finding out it's novelty, I seriously am beginning to see why linux is not used nearly as much as it's competitor Windows. Linux is not a) User friendly or b) very good.

Memory management seems to be pretty bad, and if you thought blue screens were bad, you've probably never tried Linux. It's also difficult to find programs, and the installation process gets pretty tricky.

I'm about to try Gentoo to see if this is any better. So far, my impression of Linux is none too positive. However, I do have a few questions for any linux users that may just happen to be here:

Are there any decent BitTorrent programs?

How do you install programs that aren't handled by apt-get? I seem to be having a LOT of problems installing progs using the readme's. When I use apt-get, it works fine, but outside of that, they all give me lots of problems, especially those using .gz

 

[maharg]

Gentoo is not going to help your opinion. It's Administrator Friendly, not User Friendly.

Try one of the more friendly ones instead. Other people can probably give you better advice there.

 

[retardboy]

Want user friendly? Try Linspire or Xandros or one of those Windows type clones. Better yet, why not just use Windows?

 

[Gattsu25]

 

[CrunchyB]

I seriously am beginning to see why linux is not used nearly as much as it's competitor Windows. Linux is not a) User friendly or b) very good.

It's true that you'll have to be a bit of a techie to get the most out of the OS, but to the ordinary user it's not very different from Windows. And KDE is a lot like Windows (a bit too much for me in fact).

Memory management seems to be pretty bad, and if you thought blue screens were bad, you've probably never tried Linux.

This makes no sense at all. A proper Linux installation should be rock solid. And unlike a Windows installation, stay rock-solid. Could you elaborate?

It's also difficult to find programs, and the installation process gets pretty tricky.

Difficult to find programs?
I guess it's hard to configure and compile programs with Linux, but the same goes for Windows apps. That's probably why they are virtually always distributed in binary form.

Are there any decent BitTorrent programs?

There's a link to the Linux verison on www.bittorrent.com. I'm sure there are other clients too.

How do you install programs that aren't handled by apt-get?

It depends on the distro. But "installing" programs is no big deal, most of the time, applications don't have to be in a specific place. There are no magic Registry settings or anything like that. If it's on your system, you can run it.

And something on Gentoo:

If you're at least moderately interested in the inner workings of an OS, Gentoo is a good choice. There's a very active and friendly community and a ton of guides and HOWTO's. There'll be a fair amount of kernel compiling and use-flag configuring, but you'll learn a lot about the Linux kernel and assorted applications in just a few months. With only a few headaches

If you just want an OS that makes your life easier (can't blame you, really) try something like Fedora or Debian instead. You'll never even have to see a command line there.

 

[sonicfan]

I've been using SuSE for some time, had used Mandrake as far back 7.0, and haved worked some with Red Hat. I've pretty much settled on SuSE for my Linux needs. Very user friendly, YaST makes it almost Windows like as far as updating goes. Its not hardcore Linux, but a good way to get started using it.

 

[keiichi]

I'm currently trying out DSL, that's Damn Small Linux. .... I seriously am beginning to see why linux is not used nearly as much as it's competitor Windows. Linux is not a) User friendly or b) very good.

Maybe you should try a different distro with a bigger footprint. Try Mandriva, which should be pretty user friendly, Suse or Knoppix. You can try knoppix as a bootcd and see how you like it from there.

Memory management seems to be pretty bad, and if you thought blue screens were bad, you've probably never tried Linux. It's also difficult to find programs, and the installation process gets pretty tricky.

Memory Management? What issues were you having? Can you describe your hardware and what you were trying to do?
Find programs in which sense? I agree if you mean that there are many programs that like to add either a K or G before the name, like k3b, which I think it a great program, however, looking at the name I have no idea what it is.

How do you install programs that aren't handled by apt-get? I seem to be having a LOT of problems installing progs using the readme's. When I use apt-get, it works fine, but outside of that, they all give me lots of problems, especially those using .gz

Normally, you can download either the source or binary. Source's are generally the .gz files you'll see. These files are 'groupped' together and then compressed. two different steps as opposed to 'zip'. You'll want to run a:
tar xzvf <filename>
this will 'x'plode the file, gunzip it, and print everything to the screen. from here you can view the README/INSTALL files but generally it's a './configure' , 'make' , 'make install'

hope that helps. Don't be discouraged Linux stills needs some work in certain areas but it's definately come a long way.

 

[Tain]

I liked what I used of Mandrake, and I liked what I've used of various Live CDs.

That said, the only reason I really gave up on it was because, quite frankly, I couldn't figure out how to install goddamn nvidia drivers. Can't say it made me feel too bright.

Heh, I DO have an ATI card now... Too lazy to install a major linux distro over XP. Maybe I'll pull out a random 8 gig drive and mess around, though.

 

[Drensch]

Try ubuntu.

 

[Polari]

Try ubuntu.

Seconded. The software Damn Small Linux uses is really old, and isn't representative of GNU/Linux on the desktop AT ALL.

If you're looking for a desktop system, for now at least, Ubuntu is as good as it gets when it comes to GNU/Linux. That's not to say it doesn't have its flaws; it does, but overall it's pretty good. http://www.ubuntulinux.org

 

[swoon]

Try ubuntu.

yea i mean. install nvidia drives is pretty easy with ubuntu's faq and respo

 

[Blimblim]

Like the others said, give Ubuntu a try. It's really nice and the package system is IMHO the best out there.
I'm using Gentoo on this computer, but it's starting to get annoying if you want to use it in the long run as lots of packages require some more or less documented changes after an upgrade (and sometimes won't compile at all). I don't use KDE or Gnome (just enlightenment and lots of keyboard shortcuts) so I don't really care about having the latest cutting edge stuff, but having an easily up to date system is important.
I don't understand about what you mean about memory management though? In my 8 years of using linux daily I've never had any problem with the memory system, and it gets better and better with each new major Linux release anyway.

 

[CrunchyB]

Ah, so Ubuntu is the hot new distro on the block? I've been a Linux user for a few years but I've only worked with Gentoo and Slackware. It seems like every few months some new (or old) flavor of Linux pops up with feature XYZ that everyone goes nuts about

I'm curious, what makes Ubuntu great (besides the package system)?

 

[Ruzbeh]

That said, the only reason I really gave up on it was because, quite frankly, I couldn't figure out how to install goddamn nvidia drivers. Can't say it made me feel too bright.

Heh, I DO have an ATI card now... Too lazy to install a major linux distro over XP. Maybe I'll pull out a random 8 gig drive and mess around, though.

:lol

Anyway. ATI doesn't have any good linux drivers, so if you want to play games with an ATI card in Linux... No. Nvidia drivers are easy to install. I only need to open my terminal and punch a few keys, edit my configuration file of my X server and restart my X server and make sure the nvidia module is loaded everytime at startup. Definately not as easy as in Windows, but at least I don't need to restart the whole damn computer!

 

[M3Freak]

However, after finding out it's novelty, I seriously am beginning to see why linux is not used nearly as much as it's competitor Windows. Linux is not a) User friendly or b) very good.

For some people, yes, it's a difficult switch. However, I find my favourite Linux distribution, Fedora Core, to be easy to use, stable, fast and flexible: overall an excellent distro.

Memory management seems to be pretty bad,

This is perhaps one of the most common misunderstandings Windows people have when they try out a Linux disribution.

Memory is not managed the same way in the Linux kernel as it is by Windows. In fact, the Linux kernel does a much, much, much better job of handling memory.

Here's a link to an excellent article on the Gentoo website about Linux memory management:

http://gentoo-wiki.com/FAQ_Linux_Memory_Management

That will get you started, but if you want to learn more, I suggest you Google around for it. Summary: Linux memory mangement >>>>> Windows memory management.

and if you thought blue screens were bad, you've probably never tried Linux.

I've never seen a blue screen of death, but I have in my 4 years of using Linux seen a black screen of death, twice. That being said, if you're regularly having lock ups or crashes, there is something seriously wrong with your setup. Places to look:

1. bad memory
2. other malfunctioning hardware
3. incorrect X config
4. hosed install

You should almost never have a total crash or lockup. I can't stress this enough: you should have near 100% uptime without. "Blue screens of death" are just about non-existent.

It's also difficult to find programs, and the installation process gets pretty tricky.

You have to know where to look, and it depends on what type of packaging system your particular distro employs.

For example, Fedora Core is a RPM based distro. To install most anything, you should use RPMs. RPMs are usually found in repositories (repos) and there are many available. One of the largest, and most popular would have to be Dag's apt/yum repo (APT is another package management system, started and mostly used by Debian project).

Installing programs can be daunting at first, but it's not that hard, especially when you're dealing with RPMs. On Fedora Core, you can use yum to install and remove RPMS. Yum also handles dependencies, which is a life saver when you're trying to install a package and discover there are many dependencies that must be installed first. You can do it manually, but it will take time, and for a newbie, is absolutely daunting.

Are there any decent BitTorrent programs?

I personally use Azureus. It's a Java based BitTorrent client, and so it will work on any platform. It's really good.

How do you install programs that aren't handled by apt-get? I seem to be having a LOT of problems installing progs using the readme's. When I use apt-get, it works fine, but outside of that, they all give me lots of problems, especially those using .gz

If the pacakge you're installing is only available in source code, you'll have to compile the application. Most packages distributed in this manner have documentation that tell you how to install from source. If you're having problems installing the app, I suggest:

1. search Google
2. subscribe to the app's mailing list, and ask there

Number 2 is important - mailing lists are usually the primary and best way to seek support from other users.

BTW, apt-get works so well for you because it does all the hard work. Like Yum, apt-get solves dependencies and handles the entire process. There are differences between the two, such as Yum is for RPMs, and apt-get is for debs (though a version of apt-get is available for Fedora Core that works with RPMs).

I highly recommend you try out Gentoo after you're more familiar with Linux in general. Gentoo is an excellent distribution, but it can be difficult to get into.

Try out these distros:

1. Debian
2. Fedora Core
3. CentOS
4. Ubuntu

There are countless more, but those are excellent starting points.

One final note: I use Linux and Open Source Software (OSS) in my business. In fact, everything runs on Linux, save for my accounting app, Quickbooks. For this I use Win4Lin to install WinME within my Fedora Core 3 install, and then launch WinME like any other Linux application.

Good luck!

 

[M3Freak]

I'm curious, what makes Ubuntu great (besides the package system)?

I asked this very same question in the Fedora Core users mailing list. I was looking for a few decent replies, but the thread turned into a monster - lots of information.

The thread subject was, "OT: What's the deal with Ubuntu?". Run a Google search on that.

 

[Hitokage]

Eh, I'd go for SuSE or Mandriva long before distros on the level of Gentoo... and I don't care much for Fedora.

Are there any decent BitTorrent programs?

The Official client and Azureus are both in linux.

And KDE is a lot like Windows (a bit too much for me in fact).

Seems like somebody can't change defaults.

That said, the only reason I really gave up on it was because, quite frankly, I couldn't figure out how to install goddamn nvidia drivers. Can't say it made me feel too bright.

Heh, I DO have an ATI card now... Too lazy to install a major linux distro over XP. Maybe I'll pull out a random 8 gig drive and mess around, though.

Installing nvidia drivers requires getting out of X completely, running the installer, then changing the driver in the X config file from "nv" to "nvidia". Upgrading usually just takes getting out of X then running 'nvidia-installer --update'. And recent ATI cards blow on linux. You're in for a world of pain just trying to get semi-crippled status, since ATI proprietary drivers are pure shit and I've yet to hear they've changed their ways significantly.

 

[iapetus]

Eh, I'd go for SuSE or Mandriva long before distros on the level of Gentoo... and I don't care much for Fedora.

Any particular reason? I've found Gentoo to be a dream to use, both before and after my hardware upgrade (other than some problems with network card compatibility, but that's a kernel issue rather than a distribution one from what I can tell).

Oh, and "emerge nvidia" worked for me.

 

[Hitokage]

Talking in terms of recommending a distro to somebody unfamiliar with linux.

...although I do have personal gripes with Gentoo, like being locked into portage with no simple way of integrating a "make install" into the package system. I'd like to be wrong on that point though. *ahem*

Oh, and "emerge nvidia" worked for me.

It worked in Mandrake? Really?

 

[iapetus]

Talking in terms of recommending a distro to somebody unfamiliar with linux.

...although I do have personal gripes with Gentoo, like being locked into portage.

Ah, fair enough, then. Though I'm quite liking being 'locked into' portage at the moment, never having had any problems with it. Any programs I need which aren't already in portage I can generally install manually.

 

[CrunchyB]

Seems like somebody can't change defaults.

I don't like icons, so I use fluxbox

Oh, and "emerge nvidia" worked for me.

Not for me

emerge nvidia
Calculating dependencies
emerge: there are no ebuilds to satisfy "nvidia".

 

[iapetus]

Not for me

Damn it, you're right. I had to use emerge nvidial-glx instead.

 

[Blimblim]

Ah, fair enough, then. Though I'm quite liking being 'locked into' portage at the moment, never having had any problems with it. Any programs I need which aren't already in portage I can generally install manually.

Let's see when you will have used Gentoo for about 2 years like me and that some packages refuse to build. Usually when doing a emerge -u world I have to find a way to find what's wrong with at least 2 or 3 packages.
And since my linux comp is a meager thunderbird 1400, it takes age to compile stuff, especially C++ stuff like KDE or mysql.

 

[Hitokage]

Wait a sec... I wonder if it'd be possible to use slackware's package system on top of Gentoo, and hand injecting packages in Portage to reflect changes on that end. Haha, it'll probably be clunky as hell and I'd be far better off staying in my checkinstall/swaret/slapt-get setup.

 

[iapetus]

And since my linux comp is a meager thunderbird 1400, it takes age to compile stuff, especially C++ stuff like KDE or mysql.

Ah, well I've recently upgraded my PC so compiling things is a dream. I've rebuilt Mozilla every day since Friday, I think (among other things).

 

[Tain]

:lol

Anyway. ATI doesn't have any good linux drivers, so if you want to play games with an ATI card in Linux... No.

=/

Nvidia drivers are easy to install. I only need to open my terminal and punch a few keys, edit my configuration file of my X server and restart my X server and make sure the nvidia module is loaded everytime at startup. Definately not as easy as in Windows, but at least I don't need to restart the whole damn computer!

Well, editing the x server configuration file makes a shitload of sense.

See, now I'm feeling even more dense.

 

[maharg]

Let's see when you will have used Gentoo for about 2 years like me and that some packages refuse to build. Usually when doing a emerge -u world I have to find a way to find what's wrong with at least 2 or 3 packages.
And since my linux comp is a meager thunderbird 1400, it takes age to compile stuff, especially C++ stuff like KDE or mysql.

My gentoo box is about a year old and I have no such problems. Are you merging config files with either etc-config or dispatch-conf after doing your emerge -u world? I prefer dispatch-conf, since it does 3 way merges of them, but it's poorly documented.

Hito: It's so freakin' trivial to just make an ebuild to do the work for you for 99% of stuff out there (anything that's ./configure; make; make install; especially) that installing stuff outside the package system should be extremely rare and unnecessary.

 

[CrunchyB]

Damn it, you're right. I had to use emerge nvidial-glx instead.

...and nvidia-kernel!

Let's see when you will have used Gentoo for about 2 years like me and that some packages refuse to build. Usually when doing a emerge -u world I have to find a way to find what's wrong with at least 2 or 3 packages.
And since my linux comp is a meager thunderbird 1400, it takes age to compile stuff, especially C++ stuff like KDE or mysql.

I've been using Gentoo for about 2 years on an T-Bird 850. Sure, compiling KDE, Mozilla or (especially) OpenOffice takes a lot of time. But when you set portage to a higher Nice level (1) you can compile in the background without much trouble. There are also binary ebuilds for most large software packages, but that kinda defeats the point of Gentoo

It's true that there are a fair amount of minor issues with some packages/drivers, but portage offers several facilities to bypass those.

For instance, you can use

/etc/portage/profile/package-provided

to instruct portage to ignore certain software and deploy it yourself. On my piece-of-$^#@%$* broken Asus system I had to do this with the ALSA and Nvidia drivers.

 

[Hitokage]

Hito: It's so freakin' trivial to just make an ebuild to do the work for you for 99% of stuff out there (anything that's ./configure; make; make install; especially) that installing stuff outside the package system should be extremely rare and unnecessary.

Is it? Because the Gentoo handbook make it look like anything but when you last mentioned writing my own. I do NOT want to fuck around with various variables and dependency stuff just to get things to work right with the package system.

 

[iapetus]

...and nvidia-kernel!

No. nvidia-glx depends on nvidia-kernel, so the one emerge will pull in both ebuilds.

 

[Lhadatt]

If you don't know Linux, stay away from Gentoo for your own good. It's not an OS for n00bs.

Try Debian, Ubuntu, Mandriva, CentOS, or Fedora. I don't care for Fedora all that much, but that impression is based on Core 3, and the new Core 4 may have solved some of my gripes.

Side note: do not run a server using Fedora. Use CentOS or Debian. If you're brave and/or you know what you're doing, use FreeBSD or Slackware.

 

[Hitokage]

Side note: do not run a server using Fedora. Use CentOS, Slackware, or Debian. If you're brave and/or you know what you're doing, use FreeBSD.

Why would you label FreeBSD as for the brave but not Slackware?

 

[Lhadatt]

Good point. I learned on Slackware, so I must admit to being a bit biased towards it.

 

[keiichi]

If you want to try Gentoo but are weary of the install process try vidalinux:
http://desktop.vidalinux.com/

 

[maharg]

Why would you label FreeBSD as for the brave but not Slackware?

No doubt. That's a total wtf. cd /usr/ports/www/apache; make all install clean; OMG MESOBRAVE

Seriously, linux centered folks have such screwed up sense of priorities.

 

[aoi tsuki]

If you try CentOS, go for whatever install installs all the packages. IIRC, there's an option at the bottom of every install to just install everything. i installed it on my "toy box", a 850MHz media PC that was tossed out, and couldn't access our home network here. i came to find out that the DHCP packages, along with the package for standard commands like ifconfig were not installed. KDE's "Add/Remove Packages" app hasn't been much help, as it shows packages i know i have as not installed.