Does Mario Sunshine Deserve The Hate It Gets?
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KatamariOnTheRocks
Member
Yes, it's the worst 3d Mario game in the series.
I still recommend giving it a play if you're a fan of the 3d Mario series, but it's certainly my least favorite.
I still recommend giving it a play if you're a fan of the 3d Mario series, but it's certainly my least favorite.
SpacePirate Ridley
Member
Yes, its the worse 3D mario and has too many gameplay problems and bugs, a apart of being unfinished. And I also feel that making it all about summer makes a platformer too repetitive, not only on it scenery but also on its music.
Ive said too many times that some parts of it feel more like a game done by Sonic Team than EAD.
And it also has the worst final stage of the WHOLE series. 2D games included.
The problem here is that while windwaker is still a very good game with some problems and too few dungeons, that does some of the things (exploring for example) in an incredible way that makes it stand out against other Zeldas, Sunshine has very few reedeming qualities.
With a few fixes (apart of the nearly unfixable without a major retool not finished game) the HD port of windwaker was a great game. Sunshine has SO MANY problems, and not just being unfinshed, that the game would still be mediocre without basically trhowing everything down the window and using the base to create a new game from scratch. And going such distances makes it better to create a new mario game, than trying to remake sunshine.
Ive said too many times that some parts of it feel more like a game done by Sonic Team than EAD.
And it also has the worst final stage of the WHOLE series. 2D games included.
The problem here is that while windwaker is still a very good game with some problems and too few dungeons, that does some of the things (exploring for example) in an incredible way that makes it stand out against other Zeldas, Sunshine has very few reedeming qualities.
With a few fixes (apart of the nearly unfixable without a major retool not finished game) the HD port of windwaker was a great game. Sunshine has SO MANY problems, and not just being unfinshed, that the game would still be mediocre without basically trhowing everything down the window and using the base to create a new game from scratch. And going such distances makes it better to create a new mario game, than trying to remake sunshine.
The Fludd thing just feels so arbitrary. The mechanics themselves are ok at best, but it doesn't feel like the developers ever asked themselves why the player would want to run around with a silly watercannon on their back for an entire game. It's not cool or empowering. Maybe if they had done something like Burning rangers with cool futurist firefighters the mechanics would have felt justified, but slapping it on Mario and having him do community service just isn't very appealing.
It felt like a pretty common thing with Nintendo in the Gamecube era to slap on a bunch of gimmicks no one asked for to differentiate the games from their predecessors instead of just being bigger and prettier.
Also the annoying story, long intro, boring uniform setting and dull music really hurts the game.
It felt like a pretty common thing with Nintendo in the Gamecube era to slap on a bunch of gimmicks no one asked for to differentiate the games from their predecessors instead of just being bigger and prettier.
Also the annoying story, long intro, boring uniform setting and dull music really hurts the game.
Japanmanx3
Member
I personally love it. It still hold up graphically, glorious soundtrack, vibrant and lively setting. It's a feel good game.
Zombegoast
Member
When you have Mario 64, Sunshine is a bad game. How was this a Super Mario game?
?
Rhomega Beta
Member
I think it's a great game, and I just love the tropical atmosphere. Outside of blue coin collecting and some painfully hard levels, I simply love it.
Yautja_Warrior
Member
Definitely not, even if it wasn't the game some people wanted from the sequel to Mario 64, it was still a great game.
RealityCheque
Banned
Swing and a miss.
Camera controls were the worst offenders, as well as those damn blue coins. Even with a guidebook I still couldn't 100% the game. Closest I got was 115 stars before I said fuck this.
That being said, with some minor revisions (and a way to say where you've collected the blue coins in a given area), I think that this would make a fantastic HD remaster with colourful environments that shine like a newly minted Canadian Loonie.
That being said, with some minor revisions (and a way to say where you've collected the blue coins in a given area), I think that this would make a fantastic HD remaster with colourful environments that shine like a newly minted Canadian Loonie.
Personally, i think that sunshine had an extremely strong base. Mario was perfect, the levels weren't. Had the develoment team had another year to desing levels that worked better in conjunction with mario, the game could have ended up being a great and unique adventure-platformer. If i had to describe sunshine with only a few words, i would say that, even though nintendo didn't have time to finish "sunshine the game", they definitely had time to finish mario (which is a little dumb, i know 
). However, to make the game justice, we need a long answer:
1. The bad. The main point against super mario sunshine:
3. The good. What makes sunshine the indisputably best 3D mario game of all time for some. This will take a while to explain
p.s. stay away from yoshi. This is not galaxy 2, he s*cks here D,: and you can't perform most of your moves while you're using him.
). However, to make the game justice, we need a long answer:1. The bad. The main point against super mario sunshine:
2. The controversial, but not less important. This is probably another of the main reasons why some of the people who enjoyed the more platformer-like approach of super mario 64 disliked sunshine. It's easy to argue that 64 wasn't super "plaform focused" either when you look at the more recent mario games, but it definiely was when you compare it with a game like sunshine. It's up to you to decide if this is bad or not:
3. The good. What makes sunshine the indisputably best 3D mario game of all time for some. This will take a while to explain
Ok, sound fun, but you're really telling me that some people believe that sunshine is the best 3D mario ever? how!? First, think about mario in super mario galaxy. Now we will talk in detail about all the cool things that mario can do in sunshine compared to galaxy. Again, mario is rather complex here, so talking about him is going to take a while (keep in mind that, eventhough some of the following applies to 64, mario has not only new moves in sunshine but also can combine his moveset with the waterpack!):I'll use super mario galaxy to help me explain my next point better, as galaxy and sunshine are like the two sides of the coin.
In the galaxy games, mario is a really simple character. To compensate, the levels are extremely rich. New levels, worlds, ideas and mechanics keep the player going until the end. You could say that the levels are the game. Sunshine is the complete opposite. As soon as you start the game, you already have the most important peice in front of you: mario. In sunshine, mario is fast, acrobatic, and over anything else, complex, and the levels are just big spaces designed so that you can have fun by yourself, with mario.
Galaxy is pure platformer, while sunshine is more of an adventure-platformer. In this aspect, mario 64 probably sits in between the two. If galaxy is all about the levels, and sunshine is all about mario, 64 is in between. Sunshine is the game that depends on the player the most and, naturally, the average player wil miss on some of its potential.
It's up to you to explore everything that mario can do, and to turn the simple act of moving mario around into a compelling experience. Sunshine shines (;p) once you're able to chain each action into the next one. And once you throw the water pack into the mix, mario's movement options become godlike tier!!
I'll talk about mario's moveset in sunshine in more detail latter, but there's a fundamental diffence between mario moveset in galaxy compared to 64-sunshine: the dive (the "b" button), which you could combine with the "a" button to get different jump dives (a jump canceled into a dive). The dive, which has been absent since sunshine, is mario's more versatile move. It allows you to move around quickly and keep your momentum going after any manouver. Also, you get a higher satisfaction from using a jump dive, instead of your regular jumps + water pack, to jump over a cliff. why!? well, when you use a jump dive, you feel a greater sense of commitment as, once you do it, you can't do nothing about it if it wans't enought to make it to the other side. There's something really satisfying about mario's parabolic trajectory in the air, and how you start falling after reaching the peak of your jump dive.
Like i said before, in sunshine, the levels are there so that you can have fun with mario. You should go from point A to point B in a different way each time, you should look at the level and think "is it posible to jump from there to there!?" and then try it
Replaying the levels tends to be more fun than looking for blues coins, believe me.
The starting point should be combining the different jumps with the dive button (the "b" button). You can do a dive at any point in the middle of any jump, or you can do the dive in the startup frames of any jump to get a jump dive (a jump canceled into a dive). Depending on the combination, you'll get different dives with different heights or that travel a different distance. You can combine the dive with your regular jump, double jump, triple jump, back flip, spin jump, or even after a wall kick. There's always a dive for any kind of situation.
In sunshine, the dive suffered three main changes compared to super mario 64:
- after the first step (pressing "b" once) there's now two posible folloups. The more usefull one, pressing "a" as soon as mario touches the ground, or pressing "b" again, which gives you a little silly looking bounce.
- it travels more distance
- you don't need to be in a "running state" to use the dive.
If you press the "b" button, even if mario is standing still or jumping in place, you'll get a dive. You can take advantage of that to quickly travel long distances in water (usefull when you don't have the turbo nozzle). If i remember correcty, when you're in water, if you press "a" you swim up and if you press "b" you swim down. And when you're on the surface, if you press "a", you jump off the water. So, when you're in water, to travel fast:
1. when you're on the surface, you slide your thumb from "a" to "b". This way mario will do a dive jump (a jump canceled into a dive) and travel a decent distance.
2. right as you fall on the water again, you press "a" once, so that mario swims up, and quickly repeat step 1.
3. repeat steap 1 and 2 continiously.
You may be wondering why this is usefull. Well, in sunshine, if you misjudge a jump, instead of falling into a cliff and dying like in other mario games, you usually fall in water. That's going to happen again and again and you will want to quickly go back to ground. What i descrived above is the quickest way of doing so.
Something crucial: the spin jump (do a single 360º motion with the analog stick and, instantly after, press "a"). To make sure that you aren't rotating the stick more than 360º, you have the notches on the controller to help you. Depending on which direction you want mario to jump, you'll have to start the 360º motion at a different notch. You should start and end the 360º motion on the same notch and you should keep holding that direction once you finish rotating the stick. If you do it correctly, once you press "a", mario should have significant forward momentum and travel a huge horizontal distance (that you can then increase using the water pack). The spin jump is also usefull for quickly climbing vertically. If you spin jump towards a wall (so that you touch the wall right when you're at the highest point of your jump), do a wall kick as you touch the wall (you can also rotate the stick right before doing the walk kick to spin jump from the wall) and finally use the water pack, you'll cover a big vertical distance. A fun use of the spin jump is combining it's startup with the dive button (the "b" button). If you do a spin jump, but instantly slide your thumb from "a" to "b", you'll get a nice dive (try it
You may have noticed that, if you press "a" right as you land from a spin jump, you'll get a triple jump. The spin jump is a really high jump, so waiting until you land is slow, but there's a shortcut: spinning (rotating the stick) in mid air, when you're close to the ground, and then pres "a" as you land.
What you do is:
1. hold, for example, forward on the analog stick
2. pres, and quickly release, the "a" button (to get a small and close to the ground jump)
3. quickly rotate the analog stick (and make sure that you end the 360º motion holding the same direction as you were previously, in this case, forward)
4. finally press "a" again right as you land to get a triple jump.
With that sequence mario should jump, spin in mid air close to the ground, and triple jump right after landing. Basically, that's a short cut for being able to do a triple jump without having to use your double jump first. And if you do all that but, in the last step, you slide your thumb from "a" to "b", you get a short cut for or huge dive.
This way the triple jump turns into something more manageable, and you'll be able to do all kind of crazy jumps easier. Personally, i like to use that when i'm on the edge of a "cliff" (i.e. a really high point) and i want try if i can make it to the other side (i.e. to another high point) without falling. And it's fun
In sunshine, the side flip lost one of it's uses compared to super mario 64. In 64, if you pressed "a" right as you landed from a side flip, you got a triple jump. In sunshine, you only get a double jump (which makes the above paragraph relevant). The two main uses for the side flip are probably side fliping towards the wall to wall kick right after, or combining the side flip with the dive button.
Then there's all the little touches that nintendo gets right. Some examples:
- if you spray water on the ground, in front of you, and then dive into it, you'll slide crazy fast, allowing you to quickly cross the stage. Same thing happens if you dive into the ground while mario is still wet, after having crossed a stretch of water. And if, when you're sliding, you find out that you're approaching a cliff, you can continue and, once you're in mid air, you can cancel the slide by using the water pack while also keeping a lot of momentum!!
- if you're stained with paint, a quick spin (a 360º motion) can take care of it!!
- how mario slowly descends while spinning in mid air
- if you used the water pack in mid air and, right as you land, you press "a", you get a double jump instead of a regular jump. Also, even after having used the water pack for as long as you can in mid air, you can still do a dive instead of simply falling.
- after doing a dive (press "b") and then the "a" follow up, you can spay water as mario bounces off the ground.
- when you're on a rope, if you press "b", you'll be hanging on the rope. If then you use the water pack, you will start spinning like crazy
- when you're on a rope, you normaly need to do two consecutive jumps to get a really high jump. But if you do a ground pound and then jump, you'll get the same result.
Spraying water is also very well done. It's specially cool to spin jump in place (releasing the stick after finishing the 360º motion) and then start mashing the "r" trigger and the "a" button together. That's an awesome way of quickly depleting your tank while taking care of all the paint around you!! By the way, pressing/mashing "r" and "a" together is not only the most fun way of spraying water ever but also the most effective, don't forget using it!!
p.s. stay away from yoshi. This is not galaxy 2, he s*cks here D,: and you can't perform most of your moves while you're using him.
Not Spaceghost
Spaceghost
It's not anywhere near the level of sheer content and level design as Mario 64 so for that it deserves all the shit it gets by comparison.
However, the presentation, the visual style, the feel of the game is quite something. I would love to get an HD remake of it, it would definitely be one of the prettiest games out there if it did.
However, the presentation, the visual style, the feel of the game is quite something. I would love to get an HD remake of it, it would definitely be one of the prettiest games out there if it did.
Dusk Soldier
Member
Still waiting for the super mario sunshine themed DLC pack for Splatoon.
It should come with A Delfino Plaza themed stage. Bowser Jr.'s paintbrush, and Fludd.
It should come with A Delfino Plaza themed stage. Bowser Jr.'s paintbrush, and Fludd.
sammyCYBORG
Member
It's an average Mario 64 with some big flaws, but still a really good game.
jeremy1456
Junior Member
The FLUDD mechanics were a gimmick we didn't need. The world was hungry for more Super Mario 64, and rather than expanding on the ideas introduced there they introduced a gimmick that you would expect to see like four or five 3D Mario games in. Something that would normally been introduced after the formula ran dry.
Super Mario Sunshine may be the best platformer of that generation, but it's still by far the worst Mario game.
Super Mario Sunshine may be the best platformer of that generation, but it's still by far the worst Mario game.
Probably needs to get more hate:
- Bad voice acting, lame story
- Bowser Jr. was probably the most hated Mario character of all time until Galaxy redeemed him.
- Fludd is fun for a bit but breaks the difficulty of the platforming. Annoying to have to jump down to the water to refill it if you screw up.
- Shooting water isn't that fun and cleaning up ink seems like a chore.
- Levels are all tropical-themed and blend together as similar locations
- Soundtrack is lacking compared to Mario 64 or the Galaxy games
- Lots of filler with the coin collecting, etc, recycled boss fights
- Difficulty is all-over the place... some stuff is really easy and other areas are hard
- The stages without FLUDD control pretty awkwardly.
- Yoshi is bad.
I guess if you like collect-a-thons and exploring you might love the game. I had some fun with it but it's the worst EAD-developed Mario platformer.
- Bad voice acting, lame story
- Bowser Jr. was probably the most hated Mario character of all time until Galaxy redeemed him.
- Fludd is fun for a bit but breaks the difficulty of the platforming. Annoying to have to jump down to the water to refill it if you screw up.
- Shooting water isn't that fun and cleaning up ink seems like a chore.
- Levels are all tropical-themed and blend together as similar locations
- Soundtrack is lacking compared to Mario 64 or the Galaxy games
- Lots of filler with the coin collecting, etc, recycled boss fights
- Difficulty is all-over the place... some stuff is really easy and other areas are hard
- The stages without FLUDD control pretty awkwardly.
- Yoshi is bad.
I guess if you like collect-a-thons and exploring you might love the game. I had some fun with it but it's the worst EAD-developed Mario platformer.
Why should a game always be something "cool or empowering" ? I didn't ask for a watergun Mario but i found it fun when i played with it. At long as it works, i don't care if your gimmick is having your character transformed into an ultra badass being or having a watercanon.
Nobody asked to move squid/kid in order to paint a battefield too... I don't think it's that empowering too...
Finally read most of the thread. Late, i know.
I've to say, i disagree with this notion that sunshine just had bad luck as it was unfortunately released in between two masterpieces (64 and galaxy). No. Sunshine was absolutely not a great game and people would have pointed out both its poor level design and all its faults even if it hadn't been released after super mario 64. The fact that mario's mechanics were godlike doesn't make the game automaticaly great, as all its problems are still there. Anyway, i guess that i already wrote way to much some posts ago so... yeah, that's that.
I've to say, i disagree with this notion that sunshine just had bad luck as it was unfortunately released in between two masterpieces (64 and galaxy). No. Sunshine was absolutely not a great game and people would have pointed out both its poor level design and all its faults even if it hadn't been released after super mario 64. The fact that mario's mechanics were godlike doesn't make the game automaticaly great, as all its problems are still there. Anyway, i guess that i already wrote way to much some posts ago so... yeah, that's that.
While I totally understand why some people don't like it I loved it from start to finish. The tropical atmosphere, the soundtrack, the challenging blue coins..the only part I didn't like was the very last level and the boss fight.
In fact it's my favorite Mario game next to Super Mario Land on the GB.
Really? This is a Mario game..who gives a shit about the story?
Subjective
Then don't screw up.
again.. totally subjective
That's a huge plus to me, I never was a big fan of ice world followed by water world followed by lava world..
Well..I liked it
I don't remember having any issues with that but it's been a long time
Variation is a bad thing now?
Not to me they weren't
You take that back right now.
In fact it's my favorite Mario game next to Super Mario Land on the GB.
Really? This is a Mario game..who gives a shit about the story?
Subjective
Then don't screw up.
again.. totally subjective
That's a huge plus to me, I never was a big fan of ice world followed by water world followed by lava world..
Well..I liked it
I don't remember having any issues with that but it's been a long time
Variation is a bad thing now?
Not to me they weren't
You take that back right now.
Bowser jr has been popular since introduction. Dont throw your opinions on everyone else
MrSaturn99
Member
It's funny how bizarre this game not just in proportion to its highs and lows, but just in general
Began replaying this last week and I can't stop laughing at everything going on; I mean, they send Mario to jail!
Began replaying this last week and I can't stop laughing at everything going on; I mean, they send Mario to jail!
He's absolutely right, though. In sunshine, yoshi was abysmal. He was completely out of place, as picking him removed most of mario's moveset.
BumblebeeCody
Member
I loved the game except for three major sections:
Two out of three of those involved Yoshis that dissolve in water...
Egoraptor loves that part.
I am Christina Aguilera
Member
nope same as that top down zelda game you actually play as zelda.. on cdi
i played it and loved it.
at the time this looked so cool
Does that digitized, overexposed Zelda sprite count as the first example of bloom?
I played it recently, and was pleasantly surprised. It was a 3D Mario that I'd never played, and it was awesome!
That said, it wasn't perfect. I think some of the later and secret levels were a bit on the brutal side. Overall I'd say it's worth playing to the end, but don't feel compelled to 100% it if you find any particular level way too ridiculous.
That said, it wasn't perfect. I think some of the later and secret levels were a bit on the brutal side. Overall I'd say it's worth playing to the end, but don't feel compelled to 100% it if you find any particular level way too ridiculous.
BUNTING1243
Banned
No, it's a fantastic Mario game.
The Real Abed
Perma-Junior
It's mediocre, but for a Mario game, mediocre is still really good. It has problems, but it's playable. Sadly it suffered from the same thing Mario Advance did at the same time; Voice acting. Also Yoshi is broken and shouldn't even have been in the game.
Other than that it's fine.
Other than that it's fine.
When you have Mario 64, Sunshine is a bad game. How was this a Super Mario game?
?
Drear lord yes! Who desinged this horrid level? Those freaking boat physics man.
BumblebeeCody
Member
You ride a wooden boat on lava. This game.
I'm fine with people hating on it. It's easily the worst 3d Mario game, the controls are the worst of any 3d Mario game, and it released in between Mario 64 and Mario Galaxy which are two of the best games of all time. Sunshine isn't bad, but it's not great either, and we expect greatness out of 3d Mario games.
SpoonyBard
Banned
Super Mario Sunshine was awesome. I preferred it to 64, and 2D Marios. Not sure about Galaxy 1 and 2, I haven't played them that much.
Yep, I'm the same way. Not a huge fan of 64.
Hate is a strong word, it deserves all the "disappointment" it gets. That's fair.
It's a really disappointing game, worst controls of a 3D Mario, extremely dull and unfinished second half, where stars are all about doing boring or menial tasks, few different levels, boss repeats, the non-fludd levels are awful, no matter what people say, due to bad controls.
Worst 3D Mario by a landslide.
EDIT: Oh yeah, Yoshi is broken as hell. Especially in that haunted mansion stage.
By the way I just replayed the game a few months ago, so I feel that my complaints are pretty accurate, not warped by time.
I've already contacted my lawyer. You'll be notified shortly.
Lol, no you apparently don't.
It's a really disappointing game, worst controls of a 3D Mario, extremely dull and unfinished second half, where stars are all about doing boring or menial tasks, few different levels, boss repeats, the non-fludd levels are awful, no matter what people say, due to bad controls.
Worst 3D Mario by a landslide.
EDIT: Oh yeah, Yoshi is broken as hell. Especially in that haunted mansion stage.
By the way I just replayed the game a few months ago, so I feel that my complaints are pretty accurate, not warped by time.
I've already contacted my lawyer. You'll be notified shortly.
Lol, no you apparently don't.
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