-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Donkey Kong Country Returns |OT| Retro Studios Has Done It Again!
- Thread starter Tricky I Shadow
- Start date
CoffeeJanitor
Member
True. For a lot of parts, though, if you know what you're doing it can add a lot to the gameplay.agrajag said:
DR2K
Banned
TheGreatMightyPoo said:
Honestly it's just one big die and try again, memory game, there's absolutely no skill involved in a lot of these levels.
The difficulty comes in with DK's obscenely large hit-box and shitty jump. The further I get into it, the more apparent the flaws are. Half the time I felt like I was fighting the controls and my own muscle memory. This isn't good design, and this isn't the return I was expecting from DKC. Certain parts I feel like I'm playing Sonic 2006, certain parts feel like DKC, certain parts feel like Mario. Overall I'm pretty disappointed.
TheGreatMightyPoo
Banned
DR2K said:
The old games also required trial and error at times and I don't think taking more than one time to get a grasp on some parts is bad design at all.
A lot of it is reflexes and thinking on the fly.
As far as Donkey Kong's jumping, it's not like he ever jumped well in the series and he jumps as good in this one for me as any of the rest. He's not Meat Boy.
Your last part dumbfounds me as I think the best part of the game is that it broadened the mechanics aspect and just didn't stick with the same ol complete Donkey Kong vibe.
It covers all the platform bases instead of being limited to the personality of the old games while at the same time having that personality amongst it all.
If it didn't broaden the platform horizons, I don't think it'd be nearly as good.
There is so much technique in this game and while yeah, maybe you have to memorize parts and won't be able to get through them the first time(bonus levels especially), there is some kind of magic going on as the more times you try them, the more in tune you are with what the levels want and it's quite amazing that you really feel this sense of improvement everytime you try them again.
It might be step by step in some of the tougher areas but it really makes you that much better each time you tackle them again.
Much of the game you don't have to memorize but react and think and use your platformer wherewithall to succeed.
I don't think the game or the design is really cheap at all.
Maybe some platforms crumble below you unexpectedly but there really are signs they will if you pay attention.
As for the bonus levels, they are trial and error and I think it works to almost perfection with what I said about you sucking the first times and then being able to master them easily over some time without any problems at all.
BuggyDClown
Member
Love this game. Been doing my first main play through on co-op barely into my SP game. Co-op makes it ten times harder though, but I'm okay with it. My cousin and I played all the old ones together growing up so we had to do it this way.
We are about a third into the 7th world. I loved the first level on it. We also now have the first 5 K levels unlocked with the first 3 of those finished.
Game can be tough as nails, especially on co-op.
Game of the year.
Best game on Wii.
Err Possibly Game of the decade?? Maybe?
I would buy a wii just for DCKR alone and be more than satisfied, even at launch price of the system. 300$ down and not a single penny would have been regretted.
We are about a third into the 7th world. I loved the first level on it. We also now have the first 5 K levels unlocked with the first 3 of those finished.
Game can be tough as nails, especially on co-op.
Game of the year.
Best game on Wii.
Err Possibly Game of the decade?? Maybe?
I would buy a wii just for DCKR alone and be more than satisfied, even at launch price of the system. 300$ down and not a single penny would have been regretted.
Tricky I Shadow
Banned
Kyleripman said:
This guy completely gets it...I mean this isn't a remake we're talking about here! I think the GameXplain review said it best: "In a nutshell, Donkey Kong Country Returns is exactly what the series needed after a decade-long absence."
DR2K said:
Oh come on now....surely you can't be serious! :lol
AdventureRacing
Member
DR2K said:
I haven't played DKCR yet but this comment just seems ridiculous to me. This is one of the main complaints leveled against the old DKC games.
Buckethead
Banned
Going to rent it tomorrow. Very excite!
DR2K
Banned
Tricky I Shadow said:
Same level of frustration. I'm fighting the mechanics more so than anything else.
There's absolutely no sense of accomplishment when the platforming relies on memory. First few worlds were so fun, last few totally ruined it. Finally beat it, not proud of it at all. Will never play through again.
I'll probably go back and do a speed run of DKC1-3(never played 1 though, so we'll see how that goes lol) to get the taste out of my mouth. What a polarizing game.
_Alkaline_
Member
DR2K said:
Have you...played platformers before? Most of them (the challenging ones anyway) place a heavy emphasis on memory.
Huh? What kind of platformers do you guys play?
There's plenty of change between each playthrough of Mario. Mainly contributed by the enemies, shells/bombs and powerups.
In the second half of DKCR it's almost exclusively memorization. It gave me off the feeling of fun the first time, but not really worth replaying (even if the replay is just a second attempt after I died).
There's plenty of change between each playthrough of Mario. Mainly contributed by the enemies, shells/bombs and powerups.
In the second half of DKCR it's almost exclusively memorization. It gave me off the feeling of fun the first time, but not really worth replaying (even if the replay is just a second attempt after I died).
JasonUresti
Member
upandaway said:
No, you pretty much can run through Mario levels the same way each time, once you memorize the patterns.
Memorization of the level layout, enemy placement, that is pretty much what platformers come down to fundamentally.
Powerups effect the way you approach Mario level hazards, just like whether you have Diddy or not changes your approach in DKCR levels.
I can't think of a single instance in DKCR where I died from something cheap, or something that I could only know was coming from memorization. There are visual cues, and plenty of stationary platforms before difficult sections to allow you to scout the danger ahead, and ready yourself for the coming challenge.
I think you need to explain your point more effectively, as right now it just seems a bit thin.
Indeed, the more I think about your position, the less it makes any sense at all.
Coolio McAwesome
Member
_Alkaline_ said:
To suggest that DKC Returns is heavily based on memorization is a completely fair and accurate statement as far as I'm concerned. Most of the levels have a pretty clear way in which they are intended to be finished; many of which basically have to be completed in a very specific way. There's not a lot of room for error on any of the forced-scrolling stages (especially the mine-cart stages), and the stages with crumbling or falling platforms also limit the player's options to a certain extent.
While memorization is required for most platformers, it is worth noting that DKCR is perhaps a little more rigid in terms of its overall design than other games in the genre. When you play New Super Mario Bros. Wii, for example, you'll constantly be doing triple jumps, backflips, and desperation wall kicks in response to what's happening on the screen. The various power-ups and comparatively high number of enemy characters add to the chaos. It's a much more reactionary experience than DKCR is and simply doesn't require the same level of memorization. I think Mario games (NSMBW in particular) give the player a lot more freedom than DKCR does. If you watch someone who is really good play DKCR, you'll probably be pretty impressed with how fast they can get through the stages. If you watch someone who is really good at NSMBW, you will see them doing shit that you didn't even know was possible. The gameplay is a lot more flexible in that regard.
Having said that, Donkey Kong Country Returns is still one of my favorite games of this entire generation and one of my top five 2D platformers of all time. The level designs are extremely creative, and the game has some of the most interesting set pieces ever seen in the genre. It's a fantastic game in every regard. It DOES rely heavily on memorization much more so than typical Mario games do. I don't necessarily see this as a bad thing.
Memorization can be a good thing in platformers when done right (duh). It's what makes Mega Man games so good, and my favorite Mario level ever required memorization (level 9-7 in NSMBW). For whatever reason I really feel a sense of mastery when I slowly progress through levels that require memorization, and when I can can easily complete the entire level in one go by the end of it.
I can see why some people wouldn't like that though.
I can see why some people wouldn't like that though.
Coolio McAwesome
Member
Balb said:
It's funny you should mention Mega Man, because DKCR seems to have taken many cues from the series. I think several of the gimmicks in the factory stages could easily fit into a Mega Man game, and the boss at the end of World 7 was basically Dr. Wily.
Upon replaying levels for Kong letters I was struck again by the genius that is the Forest world. Best world in the game for me. Diverse levels and excellent design.
Animation-wise my favorite moment is when you wake up the bats with your rocket barrel in world 4. The look on the giant bat when he awakes is amazing :lol
Animation-wise my favorite moment is when you wake up the bats with your rocket barrel in world 4. The look on the giant bat when he awakes is amazing :lol
Coolio McAwesome
Member
JasonUresti said:
You can run through Mario levels the same way each time, but very seldom do you have to run through them the same way. I think that's the point upandaway was trying to make. In DKCR, there are many levels in which players basically have to follow a very direct path if they want to succeed. You don't have to rely on memory as much in a Mario game because the gameplay is a little more flexible. There are more variables to contend with (power-ups, a deeper moveset, more enemies, etc.) and, as such, each play-through is probably going to be significantly different from the next.
I guarntee that most people played through many the stages in DKCR in almost the exact same manner as I did. In many stages, they likely jumped when I jumped, ran when I ran, and waited when I waited. In contrast, I seriously doubt anyone played through NSMBW in the exact same manner as I did.
This is not a knock on DKCR. I love the game, but there are very clear differences between it and a Mario game when it comes to memorization.
So I started off playing this co-op with my brother, both of us using the sideways Wiimote control. Having to shake with both hands was really annoying. However, I started a one-player game and switched to the nunchuk + Wiimote combo, and it's SO MUCH BETTER. Seriously, it's not a big deal anymore whereas before it was a huge pain. I recommend anyone frustrated by the sideways Wiimote option try that. Still a bummer that you can't use the classic controller, though. It's never a good thing when motion control is there just because it can be and not because it adds something to the game.
I've played through the first three worlds now. Game is really good, as expected based on the comments. The music has been really disappointing, though. It sounds extremely cheap (especially the level complete music), which detracts from the experience. The songs themselves aren't very interesting either - either cheap-sounding versions of DKC music or new songs that are nothing more than background music. I'm not sure what some people were getting excited about earlier in the thread. It's a real bummer, as the music was a huge part of why the original was so good.
I've played through the first three worlds now. Game is really good, as expected based on the comments. The music has been really disappointing, though. It sounds extremely cheap (especially the level complete music), which detracts from the experience. The songs themselves aren't very interesting either - either cheap-sounding versions of DKC music or new songs that are nothing more than background music. I'm not sure what some people were getting excited about earlier in the thread. It's a real bummer, as the music was a huge part of why the original was so good.
Zaraki_Kenpachi
Member
Wait, how do you play with the CC Pro? When you have it plugged in it says remove incompatible device. The controls are ok now but still don't particularly care for them.
Zaraki_Kenpachi
Member
Fuzzy said:
No.
I never bothered with it.So I started playing this with the Wiimote sideways, didn't like it. Moved onto the Nunchuk+Wiimote and found it much better. Then, I tried the homebrew gecko code to make B work in place of shaking with the Wiimote sideways, and I haven't looked back. I don't necessarily have a problem with the motion controls, as I think they work pretty well, but the lack of options is what I thought sucked. The game is amazing to play through at your own pace, though. The attention to detail is astounding in the backgrounds. I hate time trials and all of the bosses so far, though, and I'm on world 6.
brandonh83
Banned
THIS GAME
I must've lost 40 lives in the final boss fight, it's so hard. Gave up in the end,
when you destroy his arms, how do you hit him for the third time? I stand right next to him, jump over the wave that comes out when he hits the ground and then start jumping towards him but I'm always too late.
Stormwatch
Member
Ok, 8-2 Hot Rocket is going to drive me insane. I have a sudden urge to throw my controller across the room
Kai Dracon
Writing a dinosaur space opera symphony
DR2K said:
I have to disagree that there's anything wrong with DK's hitbox. Haven't had a single problem or odd behavior with it.
And Sonic 2006? Seriously?
It seems the problem a few are having with DKCR is that it doesn't just imitate Rare's games in terms of physics. It is its own game. Retro's idea for DK seems to be that he's a huge 800lb gorilla and should have physics - and he does. The thing is, the control and precision is dead-on, in my estimation; it's not loose, not sloppy, not vague in any way. Hell, the game is designed around insane speed runs and it shows in its sheer precision.
I'm just about through the game now, and in my opinion (there's that word again) the game is just about flawless and one of the finest platforming games I've ever played.
But, this thing kind of reminds me of someone playing Yoshi's Island, say, expecting SMB3, and saying YI is shitty because Yoshi slides around and has a "mushy" jump. The only problem with DKCR is that it has the DK name on it, so to be fair, a lot of people are going to expect that Retro's goal was to imitate Rare so exactly that it seems like a seamless sequel.
It's not; it's an evolution, and honestly, for my fifty bucks, a superior one. I went back and played DKC 1 via virtual console to really see what it felt like in comparison. I was pretty appalled, frankly. The characters have no weight and technically, respond instantly to direction changes and such, but it also has no character compared to DKCR, and stuff like collision detection is in no way more "precise". A lot worse, objectively, and very slippery. In hindsight, DKC feels like an imitation Nintendo platformer compared to a real Mario or Yoshi. DKCR feels like it finally gives Donkey Kong Country its own personality.
Kai Dracon
Writing a dinosaur space opera symphony
daakusedo said:
It's hard, but it's very fair. Once you learn a level you can cruise through. But they definitely used the Superguide's presence as an excuse to crank up the skill bar. It may be the hardest Nintendo published platform game since the 8-bit days.
Sure, NSMBWii has World 9, but those stages are short and don't have a lot of the mindfucks of DKCR like destructible terrain and constantly changing level structures.
I've lost as many lives in many DKCR levels as I did learning 9-7 in NSMBWii. I truly mean it though when I say I was never frustrated; had fun all the time and looked forward to the next restart. Even mine carts.
daakusedo said:
It can be genuinely hard, especially some of the bonus levels. It's worth noting that as I'm playing I almost always have 90+ lives (or I can buy far more when I leave the stage and head back to Cranky's place). So sure 30 lives on some stages sounds bad, but it barely dents your stock of lives, and the turn-around after each death is really quick. I felt challenged fairly often, but never throw-my-controller frustrated.
CreatureX3
Member
True, but this applies to all the Donkey Kong Country games. Not just DKCR. For example the original DKC (SNES) also featured more rigid gameplay and required more level memorization than Super Mario World.Coolio McAwesome said: