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Donkey Kong Country Returns |OT| Retro Studios Has Done It Again!
- Thread starter Tricky I Shadow
- Start date
Got Shiny Gold Medal runs of 7-3, 7-4 and 7-5 uploaded on my channel for those that are interested!
http://www.youtube.com/user/JoeFenix
http://www.youtube.com/user/JoeFenix
Gram Negative Cocci
Member
AniHawk said:
Pfft, so you're talking about ancillary stuff like menus. Well yeah, the Prime games had awesome menu screens, for sure.
I liked it... didn't have any problems with the "shake to roll", once I got used to it. I really don't see the problems so many are having with them...
Someone said that if you start a game with a low battery, Cranky gives you a balloon bonus. I'll have to test that.
(While the game can be hard, it doesn't seem nearly as impossible as so many are saying... although I have to think it would have been easier if I had tried using the banana juice before unlocking Mirror Mode. Based on the description, I assumed it gave you a timed period of invincibility -- I just tried it out of curiosity and discovered that what it ACTUALLY does is give you 12 hit points instead of 2.)
Someone said that if you start a game with a low battery, Cranky gives you a balloon bonus. I'll have to test that.
(While the game can be hard, it doesn't seem nearly as impossible as so many are saying... although I have to think it would have been easier if I had tried using the banana juice before unlocking Mirror Mode. Based on the description, I assumed it gave you a timed period of invincibility -- I just tried it out of curiosity and discovered that what it ACTUALLY does is give you 12 hit points instead of 2.)
Tricky I Shadow
Banned
AniHawk said:
Ok.....I'll give you that one. I agree that it could have been better, but that's about it.
Kai Dracon
Writing a dinosaur space opera symphony
If we're going to get into discussions about DKC's "soul" then I'd have to offer that the Factory world seems to channel the most Rare-like vibe of the game in terms of art direction and music.
After having finished the game then gone back to begin finishing every K level, my own feelings on it have settled into this plus/minus list:
+ Best 2.5d graphics I've ever seen, from both a technical perspective and art direction. Some may think it's "cartoony" but it's FAR less saccharine than Nintendo's modern trends. While it's different from Rare, it's still very rich in most worlds. A huge plus goes to every single solitary stage having a unique layout of background scenery and geometry. Massive attention to detail.
+ Superb execution of every platformer trope in the book, tied together better than nearly any other game (nearly) by how the gimmicks are worked into the theme and structure of each level.
+ Entirely non-nerfed difficulty, not as hard as some people are claiming/complaining about (you're rusty, guys! This ain't GnG hard.)
+ Good balance of unlockables vs merely collectibles. The KONG letters are placed in much more interesting locations than the special coins in NSMBWii and require more skill to get.
+/- The controls are a special case, because on one hand, there's no reason not to support all four control schemes. On the other, I cannot honestly say I have a problem with shake-to-roll in nunchuk+wiimote format. The control hate is over-exaggerated by the waggle police.
+/- The music is also in an odd place because there's a lot of great tracks here. Complaints about "midi" music seem to overlook the fact that it's using Retro's standard synth music tech, and is even overseen by the same - Japanese, even - music staff as the Metroid Prime games. So I wasn't surprised by the style and quality. It does not have the european feeling of the SNES games. Some of the tracks sound lessened. Others, I liked more. Mainly, I think there should have been more original tracks instead of leaning so heavily on the SNES playlist.
- The bosses are the weakest part of the game. I felt the world 7 boss was the best in the game and most entertaining to fight. In general though, the prob is that Retro seems to have tried to copy the design concept behind the SNES games - but those games mostly had one-on-one fights against random animals, that were limited in scope and scale by the poor technology of the time. After a lot of the recent epic scope boss fights in modern 2d and 3d platformers, these feel trite. The 2nd world boss is also terrible and boring.
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On the whole, I think the flaws the game has are not the sort that can blunt its primary strong attributes. It's just plain a shockingly good platformer - and I mean literally shocking, as the face goes slack in amazement way too often over the course of the game. It's flaws are very real, and in a platformer with "only good" core gameplay or stage design, would drag it down quite a lot.
Also, at the risk of offending the Rare faithful, I truly don't believe Rare could have made a game this good - at any point in their history. They never demonstrated anywhere near this ability with platform design and certainly not complexity. That places DKCR in a strange place. On one hand, some of the specific aesthetics (the "soul") of DKC are different because Retro just isn't Rare. On the other, in the nitty gritty hard details of its mechanical design as a game, it's on an elite level that only folks like EAD inhabit.
After having finished the game then gone back to begin finishing every K level, my own feelings on it have settled into this plus/minus list:
+ Best 2.5d graphics I've ever seen, from both a technical perspective and art direction. Some may think it's "cartoony" but it's FAR less saccharine than Nintendo's modern trends. While it's different from Rare, it's still very rich in most worlds. A huge plus goes to every single solitary stage having a unique layout of background scenery and geometry. Massive attention to detail.
+ Superb execution of every platformer trope in the book, tied together better than nearly any other game (nearly) by how the gimmicks are worked into the theme and structure of each level.
+ Entirely non-nerfed difficulty, not as hard as some people are claiming/complaining about (you're rusty, guys! This ain't GnG hard.)
+ Good balance of unlockables vs merely collectibles. The KONG letters are placed in much more interesting locations than the special coins in NSMBWii and require more skill to get.
+/- The controls are a special case, because on one hand, there's no reason not to support all four control schemes. On the other, I cannot honestly say I have a problem with shake-to-roll in nunchuk+wiimote format. The control hate is over-exaggerated by the waggle police.
+/- The music is also in an odd place because there's a lot of great tracks here. Complaints about "midi" music seem to overlook the fact that it's using Retro's standard synth music tech, and is even overseen by the same - Japanese, even - music staff as the Metroid Prime games. So I wasn't surprised by the style and quality. It does not have the european feeling of the SNES games. Some of the tracks sound lessened. Others, I liked more. Mainly, I think there should have been more original tracks instead of leaning so heavily on the SNES playlist.
- The bosses are the weakest part of the game. I felt the world 7 boss was the best in the game and most entertaining to fight. In general though, the prob is that Retro seems to have tried to copy the design concept behind the SNES games - but those games mostly had one-on-one fights against random animals, that were limited in scope and scale by the poor technology of the time. After a lot of the recent epic scope boss fights in modern 2d and 3d platformers, these feel trite. The 2nd world boss is also terrible and boring.
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Boo on world 9 not being a proper world in the Golden Temple. After all the work to unlock it, and calling it "world 9" just one stage? NSMBWii at least had a full set of levels for its bonus world. The fact that DKCR has a good theme even, that of an ancient and mysterious temple with magical powers, set the stage for a final world of pure platforming insanity. Something to put the K levels to shame.
On the whole, I think the flaws the game has are not the sort that can blunt its primary strong attributes. It's just plain a shockingly good platformer - and I mean literally shocking, as the face goes slack in amazement way too often over the course of the game. It's flaws are very real, and in a platformer with "only good" core gameplay or stage design, would drag it down quite a lot.
Also, at the risk of offending the Rare faithful, I truly don't believe Rare could have made a game this good - at any point in their history. They never demonstrated anywhere near this ability with platform design and certainly not complexity. That places DKCR in a strange place. On one hand, some of the specific aesthetics (the "soul") of DKC are different because Retro just isn't Rare. On the other, in the nitty gritty hard details of its mechanical design as a game, it's on an elite level that only folks like EAD inhabit.
Gram Negative Cocci
Member
_Alkaline_ said:
I don't care how "faithul" they are. The space pirates just looked plain goofy until we got to Prime 3 which finally made them feel intimidating and eerily alien. It always bothered me that other Metroid games wanted me to believe a species of alien could somehow build intricate machinery with their lobster claw hands.
edit: Although the Prime 1 pirates had the awesome attribute of FIRE COMING OUT OF THEIR EYES.
Gram Negative Cocci said:
It's all part of the presentation. The game lacks personality, resembling something more Dreamworksy.
Love it or hate it, DKC was cool-cheesy/cheesy-cool, 90s-style. The point is, it had a personality, one punctuated with great music and memorable sound design. It's something that was represented in the rest of the game. DKCR seems to call back to it, but not really want to call back to it, and it doesn't do anything of its own either.
I do love the animation and the levels are very pretty, but it's only halfway there.
Now, it's just the presentation, and the level design is what really counts, but like I said, good presentation can make a game seem better than it really is (see SMG).
Gram Negative Cocci
Member
Are you advocating superficiality, Mr. Anihawk?
edit: How the hell, did I miss your last sentence? Hurpadurp.
edit 2: I get the feeling that Retro was pressured to get this out for the holidays. From the Iwata Asks on DKCR there was this pervasive undercurrent of how they were refining the levels constantly. I believe that was their focus, making a fun game. So they might've skimped on the few things that really didn't matter.
edit: How the hell, did I miss your last sentence? Hurpadurp.
edit 2: I get the feeling that Retro was pressured to get this out for the holidays. From the Iwata Asks on DKCR there was this pervasive undercurrent of how they were refining the levels constantly. I believe that was their focus, making a fun game. So they might've skimped on the few things that really didn't matter.
GeekyDad
Member
Tricky I Shadow said:
Yeah, it really is a beautiful game, Wii or otherwise. Just started it tonight, played through the first world/area and the first level of the Beach area, and I'm really enjoying it. Everything from the presentation, to the platforming reminds of what I love most in a great platformer. Hope there are more cart levels. I really loved that.
So I just reached the end of world 4 and at this point I'm getting aggravated more then I'm having fun. There is zero room for error on the vehicle levels and after losing 30 lives on one stage..I'm calling it a night.
I think this may be the hardest nintendo platformer released in a very long time.
I'm getting too old for this...
I think this may be the hardest nintendo platformer released in a very long time.
I'm getting too old for this...
Agreed. The level design is definitely better than anything Rare has ever done.Kaijima said:
What I think Rare did do better, especially in DKC2, is ambience. It's not like Retro misfired. They deliberately designed the music, enemies, and environments to be lighter (overall) and more saccharine. Also, one thing that really hasn't been discussed (that I've seen) is how much more pulled out the camera is compared to the previous DKC games. This was a great choice in terms of gameplay, but something is necessarily lost. The player is further divorced from Donkey/Diddy whereas in Rare's games, the camera is much closer and so there's a greater feeling of intimacy and immersion. The play is focused on the characters whereas DKCR has a greater focus on the environment.
The music, colour palette, and enemy design is also moodier and more sinister in DKC2. I personally prefer that and hope that Retro Studios, if they make DKC2, makes it a lot darker overall. I think they'd prefer to as well, but it depends on the direction (if any) that Nintendo provides them.
Over-exaggerated? Or just exaggerated?Kaijima said:
Either way... no. It'd be just as ridiculous for me to say that you're understating the waggle flaw because you're part of the waggle defense force. I've never had a problem with waggle. But I can also identify when it's perhaps superfluous. Or, alternatively, when another control scheme could have been harmlessly included.
But we just happen to disagree. If it works for you, fine. But for many of us it is not optimal and undermines the experience.
Mega Man's Electric Sheep
Member
I actually thought the first K level was one of the hardest.....not sure why they put that one first, it raised my difficulty expectations for the other ones too high, and they gave me comparitively less trouble (though the spikey one was quite challenging)
I'm trying to love this game but it's not happening. A lot of the small details turn me off such as the lack of water stages, the lack of other ride-able animals, the change in Donkey & Diddy partner mechanic, the Mario-ish bright, colorful and cartoony visual design, etc. It just doesn't feel like the classic games. It's own thing and that's okay but not what I'm looking for.
And fuck, those rocket barrel stages. The controls, or lack thereof, are terrible and there's no damn room for error.
And fuck, those rocket barrel stages. The controls, or lack thereof, are terrible and there's no damn room for error.
Tricky I Shadow said:
I don't think you understand what is meant by 'presentation'.
Yes, the graphics are technically quite brilliant and impeccable, but consider:
- the (in my opinion) lacklustre enemy and boss designs. Hilariously, my wife took one look at me fighting the World 7 Boss and asked me: 'what the hell is a boring looking chicken in a Robotnik suit doing in a Donkey Kong Country game? Where are the lizard dudes? They were much better. It's not Donkey Kong Country without those things.'
- the very generic 'Cliffs', 'Caves', 'Jungle' level descriptions and themes;
- the simplistic overworld;
- the very dull menus, replete with clunky, unattractive fonts; and
- the fact that the game is stuffed to the gills with laughable designs, such as the generic pink pig and 'Super Kong' and so on. Honestly, why not have Funky Kong or Cranky Kong perform the 'Super Kong' function? Why not have another of the Kong clan act as the checkpoint marker? Why abandon so much of the classic DKC style and iconography (see wifely comments above)?
The gameplay is sublime and the technology is impressive, but Retro's presentation is a little uninspiring, save for a few artistically gorgeous touches such as the silhouette levels, etc.
ShockingAlberto
Member
I am continually baffled by people who rate the entire existence of Donkey Kong Country on how involved the kremlings are
I thought the bosses looked great, but I guess I can see where some of you nostalgic folks are coming from. It's really weird--you can tell that Retro was trying to get away from Rare's designs, but they may have gone a bit too far, considering it's still a DKC game (still the same core concept, music, etc...)
ShockingAlberto said:
I was just thinking the exact same thing.
That must have a lot to do with the fact that I didn't play the DKC games until I was older. I guess I can understand, in a sense. If there were no koopas or goombas in a mario platformer I might wager a complaint. Even then, I don't think I'd dislike a game, or not be able to play it...
90% of the complaints in this thread just seem so...forced? But I guess different things matter more to different people. I love the game. I suspect a lot of it is because I never was that into the older games. They were okay, I played through them...but this is another league, for me.
EDIT: Oh yeah, the bosses were kind of weak..but still fun, for the most part. The chicken boss was actually one of my favorite. It cracked me up at first, and I had fun figuring it out.
EatChildren
Currently polling second in Australia's federal election (first in the Gold Coast), this feral may one day be your Bogan King.
I agree with people saying DKCR doesn't quite match the highs of presentation in DKC2, but people saying it has weak presentation full stop are mental. Crazy. Bonkers.
Gram Negative Cocci
Member
ShockingAlberto said:
I even hate the name! Krem-lings?
Socreges said:
I liked the gameplay of the 8 boss...I just like a little more build up. It came off as just another random battle. I much prefer a situation where a known boss is sought for, well, at least some amount of time, before the climax of the level, or (in this case) game.
nice. was looking for a wallpaper for my laptop and this'll do very nicely.Kyleripman said:I cropped the boxart into a wallpaper for widescreen monitors. It's not as nice as, say, a high-res shot of Sunset Shores, but I liked it well enough to share:
any more where that came from?
I think in DKCR3, it's going to be revealed that K. Rool was behind the tikis and whatever happens in DKCR2 the whole time.
Yeah, I agree with that. The octopus definitely should have been the world 2 boss.
But when I was replaying the levels for jiggies and KONGs, I noticed that you actually do encounter the three boss pirate crabs a few times throughout the Beach world. They're the ones firing at you in the level's rocket barrel level, then in one part you land on one of them after launching out of a barrel, and they appear a handful of other times.
Brashnir said:
Yeah, I agree with that. The octopus definitely should have been the world 2 boss.
But when I was replaying the levels for jiggies and KONGs, I noticed that you actually do encounter the three boss pirate crabs a few times throughout the Beach world. They're the ones firing at you in the level's rocket barrel level, then in one part you land on one of them after launching out of a barrel, and they appear a handful of other times.
Brashnir said:
Ugh, seriously. And later in the game there's a big statue of him. And I was just sure he was going to make a triumphant return...But no. I really respect how often some awesome stuff really only appears once. But the bosses...not the best. At least I didn't have too much trouble with any of them.
Brashnir said:
Yeah, I had problems with that...I was always hoping for more "safe" spots, especially later in the game...I have a hell of a time focusing on anything other than the front layer, with DK...So I was always looking for safe spots to stop and just look at the background...So thing that would come and go in the background, like flying ships, I would only notice in a broad sense, and not get any of the details.
My girlfriend wants me to teach her how to play, and go through the game with her...so maybe I'll get more of a chance to check out background visuals.
hyduK said:
I deny it.
but really only because I want you to make a compelling argument, with pictures and support...and not because I remember the enemies of DKC, outside of the crocodile walking things.
EatChildren said:
But those menus, that overworld, the lacklustre enemies and bosses... it isn't terrible, but it's very, very insipid compared to the moody heights of the DKC trilogy.
ShockingAlberto said:
i don't think anyone is putting it that highly.
Just imagine if EAD decided to replace koopa troopas, goombas and pirahna plants with generic barnyard animals, and let me know how you would feel about the developer's lackdaisal use of the franchise's iconography.
ShockingAlberto said:
i don't think anyone is putting it that highly.
Just imagine if EAD decided to replace koopa troopas, goombas and pirahna plants with generic barnyard animals, and let me know how you would feel about the developer's lackdaisal use of the franchise's iconography.
hydragonwarrior
Member
I still prefer rolling with a button like in all the DKC's then using waggle to roll. Completely unnecessary (especially for a platformer that requires accurate jumping), and hope it's optional in the next game.
_Alkaline_
Member
This game just keeps delivering. I am in awe of the creativity of Retro. They're such a well-rounded studio.
jamesinclair
Banned
Maffis said:
Ive only done the first one, but found it incredibly easy.
Must have been all those hours playing "fly the copter" online. Exact same play mechanic
Kai Dracon
Writing a dinosaur space opera symphony
The presentation argument does seem a bit blinded by sheer nostalgia to me. I've /got/ DKC 1 - 3 right here to turn 'em on and play 'em. Badly modeled early 90's CGI environments, check. Map screens that are "moody" I guess because the contrast is so dark and everything has that trademark Rare "shiny metal Reboot CG" look, well, I guess you can interpret that as being "serious" and not "cartoony".
Someone needs to do a quick photoshop of the map screen in DKCR, turn the brightness way down, pixilate it, and see if it looks mature and moody like an SNES game again
Hate to say it though, but the enemies in the SNES trilogy never struck me as very memorable; Rare was never very good (any good) with designing characters. For my tastes, the Kremlings were pretty bad, though K.Rool was more decent than the minor characters or other bosses. Maybe their best design outside of Banjo.
Thing is, DKC to me was always more about DK himself versus the environments. The new game has super atmospheric environments that are also super alive, and are /definitely and for suuuuuure/ your true enemy.
So maybe that's why, to me, the new game seems entirely like Donkey Kong Country.
Someone needs to do a quick photoshop of the map screen in DKCR, turn the brightness way down, pixilate it, and see if it looks mature and moody like an SNES game again
Hate to say it though, but the enemies in the SNES trilogy never struck me as very memorable; Rare was never very good (any good) with designing characters. For my tastes, the Kremlings were pretty bad, though K.Rool was more decent than the minor characters or other bosses. Maybe their best design outside of Banjo.
Thing is, DKC to me was always more about DK himself versus the environments. The new game has super atmospheric environments that are also super alive, and are /definitely and for suuuuuure/ your true enemy.
So maybe that's why, to me, the new game seems entirely like Donkey Kong Country.
Windom Earle
Member
Kaijima said:The presentation argument does seem a bit blinded by sheer nostalgia to me. I've /got/ DKC 1 - 3 right here to turn 'em on and play 'em. Badly modeled early 90's CGI environments, check. Map screens that are "moody" I guess because the contrast is so dark and everything has that trademark Rare "shiny metal Reboot CG" look, well, I guess you can interpret that as being "serious" and not "cartoony".
Someone needs to do a quick photoshop of the map screen in DKCR, turn the brightness way down, pixilate it, and see if it looks mature and moody like an SNES game again
Hate to say it though, but the enemies in the SNES trilogy never struck me as very memorable; Rare was never very good (any good) with designing characters. For my tastes, the Kremlings were pretty bad, though K.Rool was more decent than the minor characters or other bosses. Maybe their best design outside of Banjo.
Thing is, DKC to me was always more about DK himself versus the environments. The new game has super atmospheric environments that are also super alive, and are /definitely and for suuuuuure/ your true enemy.
So maybe that's why, to me, the new game seems entirely like Donkey Kong Country.
This man speaks the truth. Don't let nostalgia blind you. The old DK games are far from perfect.
AzureNightmare
Banned
I love this game so much. it truly reminds me of how great a 2D Donkey Kong platformer could be.
What is this? You're apparently responding to my post, but.... not responding to my post. You left out several points that I made. You're effectively responding to no one...?Kaijima said:The presentation argument does seem a bit blinded by sheer nostalgia to me. I've /got/ DKC 1 - 3 right here to turn 'em on and play 'em. Badly modeled early 90's CGI environments, check. Map screens that are "moody" I guess because the contrast is so dark and everything has that trademark Rare "shiny metal Reboot CG" look, well, I guess you can interpret that as being "serious" and not "cartoony".
Someone needs to do a quick photoshop of the map screen in DKCR, turn the brightness way down, pixilate it, and see if it looks mature and moody like an SNES game again
Hate to say it though, but the enemies in the SNES trilogy never struck me as very memorable; Rare was never very good (any good) with designing characters. For my tastes, the Kremlings were pretty bad, though K.Rool was more decent than the minor characters or other bosses. Maybe their best design outside of Banjo.
Thing is, DKC to me was always more about DK himself versus the environments. The new game has super atmospheric environments that are also super alive, and are /definitely and for suuuuuure/ your true enemy.
So maybe that's why, to me, the new game seems entirely like Donkey Kong Country.
Who ever said they were? Is there anyone here even arguing that the DKC trilogy is superior?schennmu said: