Dota 2 Beta Thread V: Real Talk Strikes Back [Tutorials]

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EXACTLY. Do you understand now? It's not a very good idea to let one of the best late game carries in the game have absolute uncontested free farm, kills, and towers without even switching lanes for over 20 minutes. That's called A) getting outdrafted B) getting outplayed or C) just playing like shit. Usually it's a combination of the three.

And my point is: any other hero getting free farm (Luna, Spectre,PA, even Void) and they'd still have a chance (Alch was the hero who farmed the most that game), but PL getting free farm is a whole other story.

YES, they made a gif.

QSm0BRT.gif


so good.

Just watch how much mana and health damage 5 of his illusions are doing, and that was ~30 min in?
 
Small fixes every hero needs. Why stop with Medusa? Look at Lycan and Morphling, heroes that were absolutely powerhouses and after some tweaks are now much more balanced. PL needs that, I'm not asking them to stop him from spawning illusions or anything like that, but he clearly needs small fixes, and if he's as good now as ou say he is, I'm sure next patches will prove me wrong.

Sorry but you're delusional if you think Lycan and Morphling got "small fixes". There is a humongous difference between how broken old Lycan was versus old Medusa.
 
I just find it odd no pubs do lane Lycan. Not easy enough?

He's a horrible laner (probably the worst in the game tbh). You really have to rely on your support or the enemy team being shitty/having a shitty lane. Pubs don't like to rely on other pubs. Plus you need safe lane, and of course pubs will random or pick 3 carries and all will want safe lane.

I like to jungle him or 1v1 safe lane him because as a player I just like to rely on myself. That's just my style.

Of course if you're playing in a stack or have a really awesome support, your farm in lane will be much better than what you can get out of the jungle. But that's a big if.
 
He's a horrible laner. You really have to rely on your support or the enemy team being shitty/having a shitty lane. Pubs don't like to rely on other pubs. Plus you need safe lane, and of course pubs will random or pick 3 carries and all will want safe lane.

Horrible?! You can have the wolves harass for you. He doesn't solo or anything, but how is that horrible assuming he has a support?
 
Horrible?! You can have the wolves harass for you. He doesn't solo or anything, but how is that horrible assuming he has a support?

His wolves die in 2-3 hits. That's free gold and exp at early levels. He has no stun, no slow, and no escape until level 6. So he's vulnerable and can't setup kills. That's the definition of a horrible laner.
 
Sorry but you're delusional if you think Lycan and Morphling got "small fixes". There is a humongous difference between how broken old Lycan was versus old Medusa.

The biggest change to Lycan is that he's not that good of a jungler anymore. His pushing potential is still the same. You can balance the hero (even though I think he need some small buff) without destroying his role.

Also, watch that gif again: 1 PL illusion killed a full hp Magnus while he was probably killing someone else down there.
 
The biggest change to Lycan is that he's not that good of a jungler anymore. His pushing potential is still the same. You can balance the hero (even though I think he need some small buff) without destroying his role.

? Icefrog destroyed his role as a jungler. When I think of Lycan, I think push + jungle. The latter was completely neutered. You will never see Lycan jungle in competitive unless something changes. It's possible in pubs because pubs don't usually gank. I mean it was definitely a necessary and significant nerf, but the hero's identity was definitely affected. Also it did slightly deter his pushing power to some extent. The wolves die in 2 tower hits or 2-3 autos or 1 nuke now. Wolves dying quickly and easily makes it easier to delay or stop his push.
 
And my point is: any other hero getting free farm (Luna, Spectre,PA, even Void) and they'd still have a chance (Alch was the hero who farmed the most that game), but PL getting free farm is a whole other story.

Just watch how much mana and health damage 5 of his illusions are doing, and that was ~30 min in?
yes PL right now is one of the hardest carries, but as you saw in one of those games you can gank him early pretty easily with dust/sentries and he's fucked, if you let him free farm (plus alch bought random items) that happens.
that mag #canceredbyanuke in the gif is still hilarious.
 
And my point is: any other hero getting free farm (Luna, Spectre,PA, even Void) and they'd still have a chance (Alch was the hero who farmed the most that game), but PL getting free farm is a whole other story.

You've said this a hundred times now, they're just ignoring what you say. People feel like dota pros when they say PL is easy to handle so they like to pretend it's already balanced. PL is really bad early game so apparantly if you last until late game you deserve a free win.

yes PL right now is one of the hardest carries, but as you saw in one of those games you can gank him early pretty easily with dust/sentries and he's fucked, if you let him free farm (plus alch bought random items) that happens.
that mag #canceredbyanuke in the gif is still hilarious.

He didn't even get ganked much, he managed to escape a lot, it's just that his team got completely destroyed.
 
You've said this a hundred times now, they're just ignoring what you say. People feel like dota pros when they say PL is easy to handle so they like to pretend it's already balanced. PL is really bad early game so apparantly if you last until late game you deserve a free win.

have u watched any freakinchair games recently? pretty pro gaffer
 
I'm not sure I would nerf PL directly at this point. I'd rather create more counters through items or maybe touch up on some of the lesser picked heroes like OD, who have illusion counters but suffer from other drawbacks that make them a non viable pick.
 
I'm not sure I would nerf PL directly at this point. I'd rather create more counters through items or maybe touch up on some of the lesser picked heroes like OD, who have illusion counters but suffer from other drawbacks that make them a non viable pick.

Definitely think you buff other heroes rather than nerf PL. PL has drawbacks, but they can't really be taken advantage of so easily in pubs. You buff other people to alter the meta or have there be a more direct counter to PL with a new/changed ability and he'll be fine pretty much as is.

Just make juxstapose a unique attack modifier so he can't get diffusal anymore and you go a long way to fixing that hero.

But then he would be worthless.
 
You've said this a hundred times now, they're just ignoring what you say. People feel like dota pros when they say PL is easy to handle so they like to pretend it's already balanced. PL is really bad early game so apparantly if you last until late game you deserve a free win.

Yes... typically that's the definition of a carry? I mean come on, he is DEMONSTRABLY WEAK in the early game. If you want to roll over and let him farm, fine, but that's not the hero's problem.
 
Just nerf diffusal blade. Pl is the only hero that 100% gets the item, bam done. Just like e blade and Morphling.

Nerfing e blade was one of the nerfs on Morph that wasnt needed for precisely that reason. Items shouldnt be nerfed for being really good on 1 or 2 heroes. They should be nerfed when everyone and their dog picks them up on 2/3s of the pool like old drums or tranquils. And nerfing diff blade would hurt Naga, who doesnt need any more nerfs.
 
My problem is that the balance issues are far worse in pub play as opposed to pro play.
I believe there is a difference, and in pub play (low-medium) its much easier to stay alive, farm and carry.

I do think its possible to have characters that are more (not completely) balanced across more tiers of play. Instead of just saying "..but its balanced at a professional level!".
 
Just wanted to say two things. Firstly, I think I'm finally in very high for good which is kind of sweet. Had 5 games in it today and won 4 of them. Also, my game differential has swelled up to + 41 (dotabuff says 47 for some reason.) So it feels like I'm making progress into the higher levels of play.

As for this pl conversation, I think there are two approaches one can take to nerfing him. The first would be to touch his agi per level. Drop it to 3 or something like that. But really, pl builds a lot of items which can give him a ton of early mana, thats treads and the robe of the magi for diffusal blade. Getting those items with a ring of basilius gives pl way to much early game mana for harass and escape, with respect to how strong late game he is. I have no problem with a strong late game hero, if its early game is correspondingly weak, but pl builds naturally into the mana which lets him get off so many more q's and w's than I feel he should for strong he is late game. Nerf his mana and int per level IMO.
 
My problem is that the balance issues are far worse in pub play as opposed to pro play.
I believe there is a difference, and in pub play (low-medium) its much easier to stay alive, farm and carry.

I do think its possible to have characters that are more (not completely) balanced across more tiers of play. Instead of just saying "..but its balanced at a professional level!".

Sure, and heroes like SB and Ursa have seen nerfs for no reason other than pub play. The thing is that they're not hard carries like PL; they made pubs miserable because of their absurd killing power in lower tiered games. Even then I don't think it's a good basis for nerfing heroes just because pub players are struggling to deal with it.

But I think PL is plenty easy to shut down even in pubs once you learn how to do it. It's not impossibly difficult like it is shutting down the ol' 6.73-era Lycan or Morphling. It's not even a free win to have a farmed PL.

People have no issue picking Pugna or Nyx to play against Skywrath, but somehow picking heroes like Storm, Kunkka, or Gyro against PL is completely unheard of. There are so many ways to shut down PL that it's not even funny.
 
People have no issue picking Pugna or Nyx to play against Skywrath, but somehow picking heroes like Storm, Kunkka, or Gyro against PL is completely unheard of. There are so many ways to shut down PL that it's not even funny.
I think it was KingRaven (so take this with a grain of salt, please) that said people have a problem getting 'shitslammed' by carries but are fine with supports doing it.

It's a bizarre line of thought.
 
I can't play Dota anymore right now. Fucking awful ping spikes on USEast which shouldn't be happening. Can hardly last hit, and it's super stuttery/laggy at the worst times. Don't know if it's just me, or on Valve's end, but I can't play like this. Spikes of 300-700 ping at least once a minute is unacceptable.

I could deal with just high ping if it was steady, but when it goes from a normal ~90 ping to 300 at random intervals, the game is unplayable.
 
I had a full game at around 400 ping.

Was absolutely horrendous. I have fiber optic internet so it's not on my end. Everyone else in the game was the same.
 
I had a full game at around 400 ping.

Was absolutely horrendous. I have fiber optic internet so it's not on my end. Everyone else in the game was the same.

Well the thing is I can't be sure if it's me or not. Had an amber light on the router next to the PC I play on now for about a month, but the internet was working so I didn't bother messing with it. There was a brownout the other day where it reset itself though and I think that's about when the issues started happening. I don't know for sure though. The other thing is that this PC is in the basement, getting internet access though a powerline adapter, and the speed degrades massively from the source that's two levels above. Upstairs the speed is ~50-60 Mb/s (and that's over wireless too), but down here it's closer to 5-8 Mb/s. Tried sorting out the powerlines at one point, but to no avail (even though they should be capable of 1000 Mb/s LAN). The internal wiring is probably fucked up somehow. The Wi-Fi doesn't penetrate from upstairs either, so I'm kind of short on solutions.
 
So this was my last game against PL


all: We ignore him all game(Not really, he was slowed down for a while)
all: Yep we have a nice lead
all: Yep yep, we have them against the ropes(their base)
some of us: fuck this guys, we can take them anywhere....(2-3 vs 4-5)
them: nop nop nop... don't stop feeding our pl
some of us : Here we go, last time was a mistake
them: nope nope nope... pl still killing you guys
pl. Aight thanks for the fed, good luck curing the cancer now
me: Why the fuck you fed the PL. No seriously why.

http://dotabuff.com/matches/197661249

Basically we gave the mid game kills to PL. We could have won easily if the 5 man dota.
 
I just won a match after 4 terrible losses because people were new to the game, disconnected at the start of the match or rage quit after 5 min.

It was against PL but I think the guy playing him didn't know which items to buy so we won in the end.
 
Sure, and heroes like SB and Ursa have seen nerfs for no reason other than pub play. The thing is that they're not hard carries like PL; they made pubs miserable because of their absurd killing power in lower tiered games. Even then I don't think it's a good basis for nerfing heroes just because pub players are struggling to deal with it.

But I think PL is plenty easy to shut down even in pubs once you learn how to do it. It's not impossibly difficult like it is shutting down the ol' 6.73-era Lycan or Morphling. It's not even a free win to have a farmed PL.

People have no issue picking Pugna or Nyx to play against Skywrath, but somehow picking heroes like Storm, Kunkka, or Gyro against PL is completely unheard of. There are so many ways to shut down PL that it's not even funny.

I think the problem here is how you nerf the character. It shouldn't be about straight up making them worse. It should be about changing how you play them, or in this case how you deal with him. Like for example (this wouldn't work, its too drastic), you could make it so PLs illusion from doppelwalk is a yellow one, not a clone. This is a simple thing that makes worse players understand and deal with it easier. Like "I know he's invis now, I should dust!" But it wouldn't make too much difference to pro players, you can pretty much tell by judgement when a PL uses his invis, so would dust anyway.

That ideas not great, but the idea is you can change how the hero works a bit rather than changing how good he is stats-wise etc. I'm sure Valve/icefraud could do it. There are many other really good strong heroes that are balanced across a lot of the tiers. Also I don't included really low pub play, but I would say PL is not great in mid-high either.
 
Well the thing is I can't be sure if it's me or not. Had an amber light on the router next to the PC I play on now for about a month, but the internet was working so I didn't bother messing with it. There was a brownout the other day where it reset itself though and I think that's about when the issues started happening. I don't know for sure though. The other thing is that this PC is in the basement, getting internet access though a powerline adapter, and the speed degrades massively from the source that's two levels above. Upstairs the speed is ~50-60 Mb/s (and that's over wireless too), but down here it's closer to 5-8 Mb/s. Tried sorting out the powerlines at one point, but to no avail (even though they should be capable of 1000 Mb/s LAN). The internal wiring is probably fucked up somehow. The Wi-Fi doesn't penetrate from upstairs either, so I'm kind of short on solutions.

I'm getting lag spikes with Fiber on the east coast. game will freeze later in the game for no apparent reason.

Your Internet situation is crazy. I didn't know you could get your internet through a power outlet. :P

Would a WiFi amplifier near the basement door help?
 
The other thing about PL is that he's fine in CM, but if someone last picks him or something in AP after you're locked in and probably don't have the lineup to deal with him, you're pretty much boned. Same deal with SD/RD where you could simply not have the heroes to control him in the pool.

It's very difficult (but not impossible) to simply outplay a good PL without some sort of direct counter to him or his team. In that situation any modicum of support will allow him to metastasize into the cancer we all know and love.

Still I think more than anything else they'll buff other heroes to make them better with only slight tweaks to PL himself, if any.
 
The other thing about PL is that he's fine in CM, but if someone last picks him or something in AP after you're locked in and probably don't have the lineup to deal with him, you're pretty much boned. Same deal with SD/RD where you could simply not have the heroes to control him in the pool.

It's very difficult (but not impossible) to simply outplay a good PL without some sort of direct counter to him or his team. In that situation any modicum of support will allow him to metastasize into the cancer we all know and love.

Still I think more than anything else they'll buff other heroes to make them better with only slight tweaks to PL himself, if any.

Would like to see medusa become a viable PL counter. She's so fun to play
 
Sup guys. Excuse my noob-ness, but I joined the GAF channel in Dota 2 to play with some fellow gaffers and don't see anyone chatting... Am I missing something? Thanks in advance!
 
Sup guys. Excuse my noob-ness, but I joined the GAF channel in Dota 2 to play with some fellow gaffers and don't see anyone chatting... Am I missing something? Thanks in advance!

Weekend late evenings US time = inhouse, most chatter

Usually people are ingames.

Type mm? and see if anyone wants to play
Buy a compendium and advertise free battle points.
 
Um am I missing something or does Venomancer not have any cosmetic items? That seems like a weird oversight

also was just in a game where it dropped 6 crates only and I think overall its been like 80/20 crates to items, boo
 
I think the problem here is how you nerf the character. It shouldn't be about straight up making them worse. It should be about changing how you play them, or in this case how you deal with him. Like for example (this wouldn't work, its too drastic), you could make it so PLs illusion from doppelwalk is a yellow one, not a clone. This is a simple thing that makes worse players understand and deal with it easier. Like "I know he's invis now, I should dust!" But it wouldn't make too much difference to pro players, you can pretty much tell by judgement when a PL uses his invis, so would dust anyway.

That ideas not great, but the idea is you can change how the hero works a bit rather than changing how good he is stats-wise etc. I'm sure Valve/icefraud could do it. There are many other really good strong heroes that are balanced across a lot of the tiers. Also I don't included really low pub play, but I would say PL is not great in mid-high either.

Sure and we can also take out denies because new players don't understand how that works. Let's also remove creeps targeting any hero that right clicks another hero, make it easier for new people to lane. Spiritbreaker is very easy to play and a pubstomper, let's make it so everytime he charges, it puts a notification on the charged player so they can respond. Nyx is a huge problem in low tier games, no one buys detection and he just runs around one shotting people, how about we just make some sort of indicator effect when nyx is within 300 yards of another hero. Lifestealer, fuck that guy, he's so easy to play and dominates games, how about we put an indicator for when he infests a hero or creep so newer players can at least respond to him and it's not just free OP initiation or an escape.

The fact is PL is sitting at around, what, 53-54% win across pubs? If he was an autowin pubstomper, he'd be hovering around the 60% zeus, warlock, and spiritbreaker range. Should we change every hero with over 55% win in pubs to make them easier to deal with? Lone Druid is at 43% win even though he's arguably one of the strongest competitive heroes in the game, should we make him easier to play so that he's not at such a disadvantage in pub games? It goes both ways.

The other thing about PL is that he's fine in CM, but if someone last picks him or something in AP after you're locked in and probably don't have the lineup to deal with him, you're pretty much boned. Same deal with SD/RD where you could simply not have the heroes to control him in the pool.

It's very difficult (but not impossible) to simply outplay a good PL without some sort of direct counter to him or his team. In that situation any modicum of support will allow him to metastasize into the cancer we all know and love.

This isn't a very good basis for nerfing heroes. If the entire enemy team picks/randoms casters, supports, and maybe an OD, and we last pick pugna/NS, we are going to stomp them pretty hard. Last picking and tryhard picking isn't a problem with any particular hero, that's just what you sign up for when you play AP. Pick a mid like puck and have a team that isn't really gank oriented? Well guess what, I can be a nerd and last pick SF and roll you over easily. Notice the enemy team has no DoT's and a few squishies? Well go ahead and last pick TA and stomp em'.
 
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