Pureauthor
Member
I wonder how it would be if BKB was nerfed to have a constant 5 sec duration instead of the way it currently works.
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Dota 2 |OT| To Hell and Back and Back to Hell
- Thread starter Artanisix
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Terrible. There are skills that go through BKB that would last longer than the duration or very close to that it would be a useless item.
Oh, you BKB'd? I'll just use Roar and you can sit there and do nothing until it wears off and we can proceed to have our way with you.
That amount is already significant. Even more so since you can't piece it together with small cost items. As Haly mentioned, it takes time to get the item. If you're letting someone farm to buy it in one shot, or notice they're piecing it together and aren't doing anything to them before it happens, that's your fault. As disruptor, you should be doing your best as soon as possible. Forcing those team fights before they get BKB, or having the team fight under your ult so even if their carry isn't affected the rest of their teem is.
DivineRage002
Member
I would agree if they had to actually make the choice to get a bkb. But the extra health and damage are already so good, even for a 3900g item, that they'll get it anyways. And 3900g is not enough to be considered a burden. Would the item be 5000g, or even 6000, people would still get it. It's THAT good.
That was a stomp though. You could have built two Rapiers and still won probably.
Mask of Madness is only good on certain heroes, and the rest shouldn't touch it with a ten foot pole. Off the top of my head, I would say it is okay on these heroes:
Sven
Faceless Void
Tiny
Sniper (you better have a Shadow Blade though)
Spirit Breaker
Slardar
Night Stalker
Huskar (with the magic resistance buff you might be able to make a case for this one, but I have yet to see it)
On anyone else it is Mask of #YOLO and you should just get some real attack speed, movement speed, or damage instead.
DivineRage002
Member
Except that right now it's: Oh, you don't have roar? gg.
The whole point of bkb is to provide a counter to spells, not all spells but a lot of them. If you are going to nerf the item so it is no longer effective you may as well remove it along with the repel spell from Omni.
Its the other way around dude. The oposite team has too much lockdown, I need an answer, maybe bkb!
"Too bad we have Berseker's call / Fiend's Grip / Flaming Lasso / Rupture / Incapacitating Bite(lol at your hitrate) / Hookshot (bye bye tp out) / Doom / EarthSplitter (slowed down so much you waste all your time) / Black Hole / Chronosphere / Ghost ship /
Stone Gase / Reverse Pólarity / Ensnare + Song of the siren (this one makes a 5v5 into a 1bkb vs 5) / Sprout / Reaper's Scythe / Meat hook and Dismember / Demonic Purge / Global Silence / Charge of darkness / Nether Strike / Chaotic Offering / Viper Strike(so much slow) and every kind of bash"
Its the other way around dude. The oposite team has too much lockdown, I need an answer, maybe bkb!
"Too bad we have Berseker's call / Fiend's Grip / Flaming Lasso / Rupture / Incapacitating Bite(lol at your hitrate) / Hookshot (bye bye tp out) / Doom / EarthSplitter (slowed down so much you waste all your time) / Black Hole / Chronosphere / Ghost ship /
Stone Gase / Reverse Pólarity / Ensnare + Song of the siren (this one makes a 5v5 into a 1bkb vs 5) / Sprout / Reaper's Scythe / Meat hook and Dismember / Demonic Purge / Global Silence / Charge of darkness / Nether Strike / Chaotic Offering / Viper Strike(so much slow) and every kind of bash"
DivineRage002
Member
Yes, Disruptor is basically a big ranged creep to magic immunity.
It's a great item, sure, but your carry is not going to outcarry the opposing carry if he or she rushes BKB. For the majority of carries it's a secondary item.
Then that's your (and your teams) fault for not picking a skill that can go through BKB. You could buy Abyssal Blade and have it work just as well as Roar (on a longer CD).
Right now you're blaming an item over yourself. That's silly.
Oh, you didn't pick a hero that has a skill that goes through BKB? Guess I'm getting BKB this game! That's why many higher level games will pick heroes that can handle a BKB user or actively work towards not letting them get it, or deal with someone having it appropriately.
Is just like dealing with Spirit Breaker and Huskar in pubs, if you don't have a couple reliable lockdowns, you are screwed. But then again, if you don't have a couple of reliable lockdowns you are screwed no matter what they pick.
It doens't even matter, if you catch the opposite Rubik, DK and Windruner with field and ult, and DK pops bkb to break out and fight, Rubik and WR are still out of the battle and taking heavy damage making it a 3v5 instead of a 5v5 for a while. Now if even the supports of the other team got bkb then you did something wrong and are at the point of no return really, disruptor pick or not.
Dreams-Visions
Member
I agree that BKB makes a lot of heroes shit. Not just Disruptor. Tide, CM, Lich, Jak...hell 90% of supports are nullified until BKB duration expires. But when you see it purchased you have to strategize how you engage is all. The calculus changes. If you can bait or force out a BKB charge it's good. Perhaps you have to kite the BKB'd hero for a bit. Or maybe it means you just focus your spells on everyone else on the team and let the right-clickers worry about the immune targets.
DivineRage002
Member
Then is lifestealer being a top tier pick even after a nerf, every bkb piercing hero also being top tier, as well as disruptor and many other magic only supports being completely out of the meta "my team's fault"? No, that's a balance issue, no matter which way you look at it.
Edit: there is no way ONE ITEM should have so much influence on the meta and be considered balance.
yeah, desperate times
shira
Member
One of my friends decides to troll us and rushed MoM on naix. I think he went 30-2 or something. The movement speed is unfair.
Oh, I thought it was necrobook strat from the get-go
The only reason why Lifestealer is on top of the meta is because of support hereos that can deal huge damage or disrupt the pace of the fight with lockdowns at low levels, Lifestealer can deal with them. Then to counter them you have the "goes through bkb" heroes as a counter pick.
Nerf the bkb or take out naix of the meta and you make the supports way too powerfull, even agaisnt a 6 item carry.
Edit: Yes there is, without that item, there is no answer to supports. Supports dominance is supposed to end in mid game, bkb helps to balance for that, without it supports would dominate all game. Bkb getting weaker as you use it makes it so supports have a better chance later and the carry has to decide to go for his next big item or go for a new bkb. Choose wrong and now you find yourself far behind the opposite carry with his new item/get disabled left and right
So it's not BKB anymore and now it's hero/pool balance and what's popular in the meta?
edit: There is no item that has that much affect on the meta. Plenty of games have been won without multiple (or even single, I'd wager) BKB piercing heroes. BKB doesn't influence the meta, heroes (or what's popular) do that.
Then the other team was garbage, because seeing those red arms on him should mean "PLEASE KILL ME IT HURTS TO LIVE"
DivineRage002
Member
No, it's my original point. Magic immunity is broken and is single handedly driving the entire meta.
That's the whole point of magic inmunity dude. Its supposed to make you magic inmune against supports, so now the enemy carry has to deal with you instead.
Its not broken, it actually balances the game in favor of carries on the mid-late game. Around 30-40 heroes have effects that go through magic inmunity. Learn to counter pick.
But it's not (with regards to BKB), though.
http://dotabuff.com/matches/ti3
Look at the number of teams that don't have a BKB piercing hero.
edit: Even with the ones that do, look at who they were picked vs. Magic immunity via an item doesn't drive the meta.
Procarbine
Forever Platinum
You're right, bkb does drive the meta, it allows many carries to be viable. Spending 3.9k on an item with little benefit outside of magic immunity is a sizable investment, as a support you have a window to exploit their need of it. If bkb is rushed, that carry doesn't have any damage outside of stats/levels. Sorry disruptor gets wrecked by it, but that's just the way it goes. Nome has called bkb the glue that holds dota together and in many ways he's right.
And you're very wrong when you say that people would buy the item anyway for the damage and HP, because that would literally never happen.
And you're very wrong when you say that people would buy the item anyway for the damage and HP, because that would literally never happen.
Nerfing BKB so drastically would require sweeping buffs/nerfs across the board if icefrog wants to maintain the current state of the game. In that sense, the comparison to Flash is accurate, in that so much of the game is balanced around the assumption that the carries will be getting BKB at the 30 minute mark that overnerfing it would result in a very different game. You can see from TI3 that the game is really shifting away from passive farming tactics which is where BKB shines, because it's magic immunity effectively scales with the strength of the carry. A weaker BKB would only shift DOTA further toward the early game and push harder carries out of the game. The reason Naix is so often picked isn't just because he has a BKB effect, but because he's one of the few heroes that doesn't need to "waste" 3900g for Magic Immunity.
Although whether the "New Meta!" will be a good thing or a bad thing is anyone's guess but I'm confident the sudden shift will be very unpopular for a while.
I would honestly rather just give Disruptor one of two single simple buffs: Glimpse goes through BKB or Kinetic Field counts as terrain instead of a magic effect.
Although whether the "New Meta!" will be a good thing or a bad thing is anyone's guess but I'm confident the sudden shift will be very unpopular for a while.
I would honestly rather just give Disruptor one of two single simple buffs: Glimpse goes through BKB or Kinetic Field counts as terrain instead of a magic effect.
shira
Member
The lifesteal stacks so yeah unless you are a carry
Kinda relevant - reddit found a whole stack of Korean hypersexualized heroes
NSFW
http://imgur.com/a/lcgel
Kikiki oh Korea your art will be most welcomed.
edit: Wow it even has the TI3 dagon nice
Dreams-Visions
Member
Seems legit.
Sorry man, you're just wrong. BKB-piercing heroes are not all top tier, not even close. Beastmaster, Treant, Axe, Pudge, Spiritbreaker, Viper, Silencer... All have high-impact BKB-piercing spells and none of them are typically considered top tier (although I'd argue SB is a very, very good support hero due to his lockdown and flying vision). I didn't even mention heroes like Enigma, Bane, Magnus, and Shadow Demon that aren't picked up all that much anymore.
Magic-only supports being completely out of the meta? Venge, Visage (arguable I guess), Ezalor, CHEN, Crystal Maiden, Jakiro, Wisp off the top of my head. What about solos that are magic-only like Puck or Windrunner or Timbersaw?
I think you're only seeing what you want to see, which isn't the reality, which is that BKB-piercing spells are good but the overall kit of a hero is much more important.
Nail on the head.
BKB costs 3900g and gives shitty stats (it's a very cost inefficient item, stats-wise), but the ever so powerful magic immunity balances that out. It's that item that most carries abhor getting but have to get against many lineups. Also there are many BKB piercing abilities in the game (i.e. naga net and sing completely destroys bkb). It's also been nerfed quite a bit since it's inception and a 4s BKB in the late game is brutally low. It's more balanced than it's ever been.
As the legendary Nome (one of the original dota devs and creator of the amazing emerald warden) once said, "BKB is the glue that holds dota together, for better or worse"
. KInda true. Adjusting BKB probably impacts the game in profound and unexpected ways compared to any other item. edit: pro beat me to the nome quote but idc still requotingI think milkman answered this for the most part, it's simply not true. Does ghost scepter automatically nullify physical damage carries? No. Does BKB automatically nullify supports without BKB piercing abilities? No! Both items have a very limited duration, can be countered by other abilities or by simply escaping (running, juking, blinking, force staffing away), and dota is a 5 man game! Is the DK bkb'd? Well let's say you're playing Lina and still want to engage, you're not going to sit on your ass, you're going to stun his team, ulti and blow up a support perhaps; leaving the DK isolated and vulnerable (plus you probably have a physical dps carry that is smashing away at him regardless).
There are plenty of ways to fuck up a BKB'd carry, ability wise and just playing-wise. Force, Blink, Ghost scepter, jukes, focus other heroes? It's never as simple as press BKB, auto-win game.
Would you categorize a 3k gold advantage after 20 minutes a stomp?
You didn't have a single point in Untouchable until 9, and Nyx should have been eating you for breakfast during that time. I'd say there were big throws by radiant then at the very least.
Edit: Streaming! http://www.twitch.tv/hylian7
Guys, can we remove ghost scepter from the game so carries like PA aren't 100% useless? It makes heroes immune to everything she (and other physical dps carries) do, item is OP icefraud plz nerf. I really think PA's auto attacks should go through ghost scepter or she be given a 1000 damage nuke so she's not completely useless. N'aix too, he can't do anything against ghost scepter either.
While we are at it can we nerf/remove Heaven's Halberd as well? Yesterday I completely shit on a Lone Druid by continuously casting disarm on the Bear while sucking his damage with Razor.
I hear Riot is hiring. You should apply.
DivineRage002
Member
Yet it increases magic damage, and slows the person down, bkb doesnt increase physical damage and doesn't hinder you in any way.
Activating ghost scepter has a risk to it, bkb doesnt, except when naga is there, who by the way was first ban material in TI3 finals above batrider and wisp.
GordonHalfman
Member
Balancing BKB is a bit like trying to balance blink dagger. It's such a core part of some heroes function that instead of buying something else a nerfed version would just hurt their overall viability.
There is risk to using BKB:
1) It gets countered by something (by naga, beastmaster, bane, chronosphere, basher, abyssal, etc...).
2) It has shitty stats and costs a shit ton, so if you don't accomplish something with your first few BKBs or get countered in some way (enemy team escapes, disables you through it, survives), then you're essentially left with nothing. Not much survivability and not much damage. Like investing in any other item, putting down 3900g is a risk in and of itself, it could have been spent on something better (opportunity cost).
3) Using it too early, too late, wasting a valuable charge, using it to TP. Again, it's not simply, "Press BKB and autowin," nothing in dota is that simple. There's a risk associated with when and where you choose to use it--the cooldown is very long for the first few charges, and the duration is very short for the last few.
4) Often times reaction time can be a counter to BKB. Blink heroes can get the jump on heroes with BKB and lock them in a CC chain before they can even respond. You can play min games with them in the opposite manner, making it look like you're going to initiate, and then blinking or escaping (force staves, mirana ulti, etc...): if they don't BKB preemptively you have a CC chain on them, if they do, you can get out and render his BKB completely useless.
The ghost scepter comparison was sarcasm, but ghost scepter is also close to 1/3rd the price of BKB, hence the lesser stats (though not by much) and other drawbacks. The idea that limited immunity by nature automatically nullifies a hero is stupid. There are 4 other heroes in the game that probably don't have immunity. There's a myriad of options and responses (as listed above) besides "unable to cast anything, gg auto-die."
Wasting someone's BKB in any way shape or form is often times more detrimental to the enemy hero than simply dusting their shadowblade or countering their bfly with MKB. Those items give significant passive benefits outside of their active. BKB stats are awful for 3900g.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
Yeah, of all the things I whine about in Dota BKB funnily enough isn't one of them.
The lifesteal stacks so yeah unless you are a carry
Kinda relevant - reddit found a whole stack of Korean hypersexualized heroes
NSFW
http://imgur.com/a/lcgel
Kikiki oh Korea your art will be most welcomed.
edit: Wow it even has the TI3 dagon nice
Why are they like 13 years old? I never understood the hentai craze, I had some friends that were really into that shit.
Schweinehund
Member
Icefraud is aware of bkb's impact, it has been nerfed the last two patches (not able to sell & 4 second duration). Heroes like OD are flourishing right now when usually BKB is a strong counter to them.
wifestealer is horseshit though, I dislike him more then what phantom lancer could ever do.
wifestealer is horseshit though, I dislike him more then what phantom lancer could ever do.
It's naughtier when they're younger.
I think I may be in the worst team since I started Dota. I have a Naga Siren who doesn't net people who are running away, we've missed at least 3 kills so far because of it. The Naga then went to siren UNDER their T1 tower, for no reason! We have a Nyx and Invoker who spent the first 5 minutes fighting over who got to go mid, and then there's a dark seer who isn't using ion shell... WTF! /Rant
EDIT: Our naga just siren'd a batrider who was ON HIS OWN andf I was about to destroy, instead he blinked away.. Oh and she stole my aegis......
EDIT: Our naga just siren'd a batrider who was ON HIS OWN andf I was about to destroy, instead he blinked away.. Oh and she stole my aegis......
DivineRage002
Member
1. Those things don't suddenly become dangerous when you use bkb, they are just as dangerous if you don't use bkb, bkb will however block most other spells, that's not a risk, that's less risk.
2. I disagree, it costs only 900g more than a shadowblade, gives nearly as much damage (more if str hero), gives no attack speed but quite a nice health boost. And has much better utility that is much harder to counter (180g dust). Not shit stats at all.
3. Using an item stupidly is not a good argument. An idiot can use a dagon on a creep, but that's not the point. A well used bkb has a bigger impact than any other item in the game.
Please don't start with the "bait it out" LoL flash argument. Doesn't make it any less broken.
Yes they do, the point of a BKB is so you can do things you normally couldn't go, such as stay alive in teamfights without getting locked down. With a Naga net to worry about, you don't have the freedom to do this. So you bought the BKB for that Tidehunter ult, but if Naga shows up in the right place in the right time and nets you, surviving that Tidehunter ult means nothing.
shira
Member
ajosephmartinez
Member
Can someone direct me to a good video to learn how to animation cancel and orbwalk? I can't figure it out from videos I've watched.
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